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What A Great Game - 7/12/2009 3:04:15 PM   
vettim89


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There has been a lot of noise on this Forum lately that quite frankly is getting under my skin. I would like to make a few points

1. First it has been said that WiTP is a "broken game" and that AE is necessary just to fix it. Ergo some think the pricing schedule is unfair because Matrix is just making people pay to have a functional WiTP. That is untrue; WiTP is not a broken game. It is without a doubt the best computer game I have ever played. Besides being incrdibly engaging, it is also very stable. I have experienced few or any crashes with this game and those that I did experience were my fault not the games (alt-Tabbing messes up most games). Look at the AAR Forums and you can see hundreds of players who have devoted thousands of hours of game time to WiTP. If it was truly broken, do you think that would be true? Yes, there are some problems but they are not so horrible so as to declare the game broken.

2. AE was started and developed by WiTP players for WiTP players who loved the game but wanted to see some of the issues with the original addressed. Incredibly Matrix Games, was responsive to this group and now we are on the verge of having AE. First, kudos to Matrix for allowing this project to go forward. Truth is some of the major issues with WiTP could have been fixed with a patch and we would still have the game we had before. Instead, Matrix let Henderson Field Games go hog wild and now we will have a game that not only fixes issues like the leader bug and pilot pool exhaustion but also will add layers of depth and realism that are making most of us drool at the possibilities. Two points here: first AE was always aimed at people currently playing WiTP and second I think you would have a hard time finding any company (not just a game company) who is as responsive to their customers as Matrix

3. For those of you trying to make the point that the WiTP/AE bundle is too costly either for you or for you to recruit your friends to play, the game is probably not for you or them. Any serious Gronard with any interest in the PTO probably bought WITP years ago. My point being that this is not a casual war game. It is intense and very difficult to learn and play. If you or your friends need to be "talked into" buying either game, then it is probably not the game for you. You/they will probably be turned off by the complexity and give up on the game. I do not mean this to be a put down. I am just saying these games were designed for a very specific but small audience. There are plenty of PTO games out there that are less complex and more games than simulations. There are only a few of us who truly enjoy this type of hard core game/simulation.

4. Lastly on the economics side. As a small business owner I understand what it means to try to remain viable in this economy. Matrix is not some huge development studio like EA Games. It is a small niche market company. y default their games are going to cost a lot more than those aimed at a broader market. I am sure that the brain trust at Matrix spent considerable time trying to decide the pricing. If you feel you are being cheated, that is your right. I on the other hand would never be so inclined to tell some one else how to run their business. Consider this: if one of my clients walked into my office and stood in the lobby talking to my other customers about how bad my prices were, I would call the cops and have them removed. Matrix is letting you go on and on without any effort to stop you. Also, poor Erik is actually respectful enough to actually try to address your concerns. Try that at any other business and I think the manager would not come out and talk to you nicely but instead have you forcefully removed. More Kudos to Matrix


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RE: What A Great Game - 7/12/2009 3:18:59 PM   
DivePac88


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1. AGREE.

2. AGREE.

3. AGREE.

4. AGREE.

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RE: What A Great Game - 7/12/2009 3:27:38 PM   
tocaff


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I think that if you factor in the cost of WITP vs the hours spent with it you'd be hard pressed to find anything that is a better bargain and I believe that it will be no different with AE.  How can anyone begrudge Matrix an opportunity to make money when they support their games for such an extended period of time and support further development (AE) for us?  Linking AE with WITP is alright with me, especially since I can continue my PBEMs with the one while delving into the other.

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RE: What A Great Game - 7/12/2009 3:30:19 PM   
ckammp

 

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RE: What A Great Game - 7/12/2009 3:32:26 PM   
DivePac88


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WitP and WitP-AE are like really good bottles of Red Wine;

WitP is a full-bodied moderately priced game that does not appeal to everybody.

WitP-AE is a fuller-bodied moderately priced game that will not appeal to anybody who has not tried, and liked WitP first.


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RE: What A Great Game - 7/12/2009 3:49:48 PM   
Lützow


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90% of all complaints boils down to 'I_want_AE_cheaper'.

Fortunately economy crisis didn't strike through yet on my leisure budget. So I don't really care what Matrix is going to charge for this game. I just want to lay my hands on it.

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RE: What A Great Game - 7/12/2009 3:52:10 PM   
Wirraway_Ace


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The cost per hour played for me in UV and WITP can be measured in cents per hour, and I have only played 3 of each. What else can you do for a few cents per hour except breath. Of course, I am not including all the books I purchased to learn about the PTO (I was an ETO and Russian Front centric guy) or the opportunity cost of reading the books and playing the games, but I digress...

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RE: What A Great Game - 7/12/2009 4:13:49 PM   
BeastieDog


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I have spent untold hours enjoying WitP. After reading the Guadalcanal AAR, I downloaded N's Guadalcanal MOD and spent most of this morning playing the AI. This has been great value for my entertainment dollar. Thanks, Matrix. I'm looking forward to AE!

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RE: What A Great Game - 7/12/2009 4:29:07 PM   
skrewball


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You know I laugh at those who complain about the cost of video games. Those are the same people who spend money at happy hour every evening. Or have their $4 coffee every morning.

I've been waiting my entire life for a game of this scope...I'll pay a little extra for a lifetime of waiting :)


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RE: What A Great Game - 7/12/2009 5:05:49 PM   
joey


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I totally agree with this thread. WITP was not broken, but it could have been improved. That is what AE set out to do. I am sure it will accomplish that goal. WITP was the best computer war game going; AE should build on that. For that, I believe Matrix should be compensated.

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RE: What A Great Game - 7/12/2009 6:29:43 PM   
khyberbill


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WITP is a great game. I used to figure that a good cost benefit ratio for buying games was $1 per hour spent in play time and I am down to the nanocents per hour for WITP. I believe that WITP is required to run AE for one basic reason, in order that the original developers of WITP (Grigsby et al), continue to get compensated. I suspect they dont get a penny for AE.

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RE: What A Great Game - 7/12/2009 8:06:24 PM   
Charles_22


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quote:

ORIGINAL: skrewball

You know I laugh at those who complain about the cost of video games. Those are the same people who spend money at happy hour every evening. Or have their $4 coffee every morning.

I've been waiting my entire life for a game of this scope...I'll pay a little extra for a lifetime of waiting :)


In my own case, you're so dead wrong it's pathetic, so maybe your generalization is just as far off the mark.
Drink? - None at all; tee-totaler
Drink coffee? None at all; tee-totaler
Drink Dr Pepper? Yes, but would never pay more than $2 for a bottle.
I think it's a bit more likely that a fool and his money will soon part, so if you're unworried about finances in one area, you're unworried about them in all areas. Most people end up with a bit of a splurge in some small area, even if they are penny pinchers, it's just that gaming may not be one of those areas.

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RE: What A Great Game - 7/12/2009 8:26:34 PM   
JWE

 

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Charles, hasen't it gotten through your thick skull yet; people heard you the first time, and the 2nd, and 3d, 4th, 5th, 6th and 7th? And that your desires will not be satisfied? So why are you hunting and trolling on other people who do not share your attitude?

Your take has been put down; put down by the management. But you seem to want to piss on anybody who has a different idea. Just what is your problem? Is it a bad monthly?

You said your piece - it was recognized and addressed (maybe not to your satisfaction, but that's life) - so shut the hell up and let other people express themselves without your bile.

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RE: What A Great Game - 7/12/2009 8:42:08 PM   
ckammp

 

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RE: What A Great Game - 7/12/2009 8:46:04 PM   
GaryChildress

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: ckammp

I do not appreciate being referred to as a fool for desiring to purchase AE.



As a "mindless" member of the "glee club" I concur.

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RE: What A Great Game - 7/12/2009 8:49:51 PM   
Charles_22


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quote:

ORIGINAL: JWE

Charles, hasen't it gotten through your thick skull yet; people heard you the first time, and the 2nd, and 3d, 4th, 5th, 6th and 7th? And that your desires will not be satisfied? So why are you hunting and trolling on other people who do not share your attitude?

Your take has been put down; put down by the management. But you seem to want to piss on anybody who has a different idea. Just what is your problem? Is it a bad monthly?

You said your piece - it was recognized and addressed (maybe not to your satisfaction, but that's life) - so shut the hell up and let other people express themselves without your bile.

Thank you for your concern.

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RE: What A Great Game - 7/12/2009 8:53:13 PM   
Terminus


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Let him yap. If he doesn't have this place to let off steam, he might go out into the real world and hurt somebody. Just green-button him.

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RE: What A Great Game - 7/12/2009 8:55:43 PM   
Charles_22


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quote:

ORIGINAL: ckammp


quote:

ORIGINAL: Charles_22


quote:

ORIGINAL: skrewball

You know I laugh at those who complain about the cost of video games. Those are the same people who spend money at happy hour every evening. Or have their $4 coffee every morning.

I've been waiting my entire life for a game of this scope...I'll pay a little extra for a lifetime of waiting :)


In my own case, you're so dead wrong it's pathetic, so maybe your generalization is just as far off the mark.
Drink? - None at all; tee-totaler
Drink coffee? None at all; tee-totaler
Drink Dr Pepper? Yes, but would never pay more than $2 for a bottle.
I think it's a bit more likely that a fool and his money will soon part, so if you're unworried about finances in one area, you're unworried about them in all areas. Most people end up with a bit of a splurge in some small area, even if they are penny pinchers, it's just that gaming may not be one of those areas.



I think you have made your point clear: You think WitP is "broken", and you're pissed about how much you paid for the game. You won't buy AE because of it's price.
Fair enough.
Those are valid concerns/complaints, and you certainly have a right to your opinion, and the right to express your opinion on this forum. In doing so, however, you seem to be taking things a little too far; you have no right to insult other members of this forum.
I do not appreciate being referred to as a fool for desiring to purchase AE.
You claim that Civ and SoSE are games you enjoy; why don't you go play them instead of being a troll on this forum.

And you started off so well too...
I was referring to a specific comment made as to having people who had problems with AE Pricing, being spendthrifts elsewhere, and it's inaccuracy, but just leave a crack for somebody to take a cheapshot and they will. Now you insult me, and a number of you have done the same.

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RE: What A Great Game - 7/12/2009 8:57:34 PM   
Erik Rutins

 

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Charles,

Insinuating that the rest of the forum consists of fools and that a poster is "pathetic" is not going to earn you any friends here. While JWE will once again need a reminder about his language, you need to realize that you really have made your point and making it repeatedly in multiple threads is also going to run you afoul of not only the community but also forum moderation. We have a pretty casual place here compared to some other forums, where this style of posting is explicitly prohibited. The reason it's often prohibited is that it does nothing but antagonize the rest of the forum, it's the internet version of picking a fight.

I regret that you didn't enjoy WITP, I hope that if you decide to get AE you will enjoy it, but seriously, just accept that everyone else knows that you had a problem with WITP by now. People who did enjoy WITP should be allowed to express that without being told that they're wrong for enjoying it or looking forward to AE. I'm not trying to tell you you should have enjoyed WITP, stop trying to do the reverse.

Regards,

- Erik

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RE: What A Great Game - 7/12/2009 9:14:10 PM   
Buck Beach

 

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I see you have almost 4000 posts since joining the forums back in early 2001. Judging from the tone of your recent submissions you are a very unhappy camper. Why don't you find something else to do besides complaining here. This can't be your form of entertainment and if it is I, and I'm sure others would suggest you don't buy AE, stop posting on the WITP/AE board, and get a real life.



< Message edited by Buck Beach -- 7/12/2009 9:17:01 PM >

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RE: What A Great Game - 7/12/2009 9:15:46 PM   
wworld7


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DivePac88

WitP and WitP-AE are like really good bottles of Red Wine;



I dislike Red wine.

But I enjoy WiTP!!!

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RE: What A Great Game - 7/12/2009 10:56:36 PM   
IndyShark


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I don't buy many games, but AE is going to be one of them. Is it expensive? Yes, but I've purchased many games and stopped playing them after a few days or a week or two. WITP was super. I am a little anxious about the detail in AE, but I hope it's as much fun as WITP with better graphics and more features. I'll purchase it and be very happy when it arrives.

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RE: What A Great Game - 7/12/2009 11:13:41 PM   
MadmanRick


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You know, I've yet to play a perfect video game. I've purchased many dogs in my time (Patriot by 360 Pacific comes to mind) and I've purchased many other games that have left me dissatisfied (Close Combat - Modern Tactics anyone?). However, I have never once criticized the company for their pricing or whatever. I've always sort of figured that you live and learn mostly through trial and error. I can tell you this much, if WitP left you unhappy, then AE at ANY price probably won't do anything to help you along the path to gaming nirvana. WitP and AE are very particular types of games, they are never (and are not meant to) going to appeal to the masses. They are as close to an electronic board wargame as I've seen (as far as detail goes) and we all know how popular those are now.

Rick


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RE: What A Great Game - 7/12/2009 11:33:01 PM   
Halsey


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quote:

ORIGINAL: IndyShark

I don't buy many games, but AE is going to be one of them. Is it expensive? Yes, but I've purchased many games and stopped playing them after a few days or a week or two. WITP was super. I am a little anxious about the detail in AE, but I hope it's as much fun as WITP with better graphics and more features. I'll purchase it and be very happy when it arrives.



Don't worry about it being harder.

A veteran WITP player will get the hang of it pronto.

As an offnote, the hardest thing for me to remember, is to grease invasions with a Naval Service Bn.
These little babies are probably the most important LCU's in the game.
They're like beachmaster units, just enough naval support provided to slip LCU's on to a beach more easily.
Hint, hint...

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RE: What A Great Game - 7/12/2009 11:40:49 PM   
Yamato hugger

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: MadmanRick

You know, I've yet to play a perfect video game. I've purchased many dogs in my time (Patriot by 360 Pacific comes to mind) and I've purchased many other games that have left me dissatisfied (Close Combat - Modern Tactics anyone?). However, I have never once criticized the company for their pricing or whatever. I've always sort of figured that you live and learn mostly through trial and error. I can tell you this much, if WitP left you unhappy, then AE at ANY price probably won't do anything to help you along the path to gaming nirvana. WitP and AE are very particular types of games, they are never (and are not meant to) going to appeal to the masses. They are as close to an electronic board wargame as I've seen (as far as detail goes) and we all know how popular those are now.

Rick



Exactly why I am NOT the first one in line to buy a new game. Personally I wait a time to see what others say about it before I buy. And that usually results in me not buying a game.

I didnt buy UV. I didnt buy WPO. In fact, I didnt even buy WitP - it was a birthday gift from a friend that bought it and didnt like it. Never really much cared for the early versions, but over time as bugs got squashed and mods came out (CHS) I learned to like it. Between WitP and PacWar I had a lot more fun with PacWar over the same period of time truth be told. A lot of really good pieces in that game were not incorporated into WitP, which I could never figure out why not (HQ control, sig intel, ect). The one overwhelming improvement that made WitP more "playable" to me than PacWar was being able to go anywhere on the map. And Andys map in CHS was another step in the right direction - for me.

The only Matrix product that I have actually bought is that UFO game because it looked to be identical to the Apple version of the same game which I enjoyed. And for all intents and purposes, it is. Was never sorry I bought that one.

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RE: What A Great Game - 7/12/2009 11:45:13 PM   
mjk428

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: vettim89

There has been a lot of noise on this Forum lately that quite frankly is getting under my skin. I would like to make a few points

1. First it has been said that WiTP is a "broken game" and that AE is necessary just to fix it. Ergo some think the pricing schedule is unfair because Matrix is just making people pay to have a functional WiTP. That is untrue; WiTP is not a broken game. It is without a doubt the best computer game I have ever played. Besides being incrdibly engaging, it is also very stable. I have experienced few or any crashes with this game and those that I did experience were my fault not the games (alt-Tabbing messes up most games). Look at the AAR Forums and you can see hundreds of players who have devoted thousands of hours of game time to WiTP. If it was truly broken, do you think that would be true? Yes, there are some problems but they are not so horrible so as to declare the game broken.

2. AE was started and developed by WiTP players for WiTP players who loved the game but wanted to see some of the issues with the original addressed. Incredibly Matrix Games, was responsive to this group and now we are on the verge of having AE. First, kudos to Matrix for allowing this project to go forward. Truth is some of the major issues with WiTP could have been fixed with a patch and we would still have the game we had before. Instead, Matrix let Henderson Field Games go hog wild and now we will have a game that not only fixes issues like the leader bug and pilot pool exhaustion but also will add layers of depth and realism that are making most of us drool at the possibilities. Two points here: first AE was always aimed at people currently playing WiTP and second I think you would have a hard time finding any company (not just a game company) who is as responsive to their customers as Matrix

3. For those of you trying to make the point that the WiTP/AE bundle is too costly either for you or for you to recruit your friends to play, the game is probably not for you or them. Any serious Gronard with any interest in the PTO probably bought WITP years ago. My point being that this is not a casual war game. It is intense and very difficult to learn and play. If you or your friends need to be "talked into" buying either game, then it is probably not the game for you. You/they will probably be turned off by the complexity and give up on the game. I do not mean this to be a put down. I am just saying these games were designed for a very specific but small audience. There are plenty of PTO games out there that are less complex and more games than simulations. There are only a few of us who truly enjoy this type of hard core game/simulation.

4. Lastly on the economics side. As a small business owner I understand what it means to try to remain viable in this economy. Matrix is not some huge development studio like EA Games. It is a small niche market company. y default their games are going to cost a lot more than those aimed at a broader market. I am sure that the brain trust at Matrix spent considerable time trying to decide the pricing. If you feel you are being cheated, that is your right. I on the other hand would never be so inclined to tell some one else how to run their business. Consider this: if one of my clients walked into my office and stood in the lobby talking to my other customers about how bad my prices were, I would call the cops and have them removed. Matrix is letting you go on and on without any effort to stop you. Also, poor Erik is actually respectful enough to actually try to address your concerns. Try that at any other business and I think the manager would not come out and talk to you nicely but instead have you forcefully removed. More Kudos to Matrix



1. WitP is a broken game if you play the AI. Unless one enjoys playing against an "intelligence" that sends all their ships/subs to one spot and can't manage to keep them fueled.

2. Matrix is a fine company.

3. I am definitely one of the few members of the target demographic. Have been since '81. BTW, it's "Grognard" which means "grumbler".

4. As much as I want Matrix to succeed, their business is theirs to mind, not mine. They've chosen to provide a public forum and they seem to welcome constructive feedback.

< Message edited by mjk428 -- 7/12/2009 11:50:04 PM >


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RE: What A Great Game - 7/12/2009 11:58:13 PM   
pmelheck1

 

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Personallly I am looking forward to the new complexity of AE. If I didn't want this massive level of detail I would be playing War Plan Pacific. I do want this level of detail so for me AE is going to be the ticket. As for the price all I can say is when can I pay? I don't expect to pay a pinto price for a ferrari. AE isn't the only game in town and all are welcome to play the others, but for the level of detail I want AE is the only game for me. I have no problems supporting Matrix games at all. I know of few other programs that are still getting support 5 years later. For me this hasn't been just a game program it's been a passion and I think it is for a few others too. Some of the conversations this game has started is just outstanding. To matrix games Keep up the good work and where to I sign up for AE. My 2 cents from the (hopfully) silent lurker majority out here.

Kevin

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RE: What A Great Game - 7/12/2009 11:59:11 PM   
YankeeAirRat


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Am I wrong because I bought this game three times? Once for myself and another copy after my dog got at the first CD. Finally one to pass of to a friend of mine who likes to play games like this. I would suggest that those gamers out there complaining about having to play full price for what is basically a mod, think about how much money EA rakes in with thier sports games. There some gamers are paying full price again for what amounts to a patch and player mod. Yet people are still willing to go out every year and purchase a new Madden edition, NHL, NCAA, NBA, etc. I work with a guy who no kidding has every edition from 1997 to 2009 of EA's NHL series.

This debate reminds me of debates on a old war gaming club I use to belong. There were people who would complain and moan that some of the companies like Victory Games, GDW, Avalon Hill, etc. would put out games that were a pain in the rear to plan for sixty plus dollars. Some of the rest of the people in the club would spend the rest of the couple of hours defending those same companies by noticing they put out some even better games that cost the same thing. The debate would also go over to having to re-buy a board game because they put over version 1A, 2, 3,etc.

I have really enjoyed this game, even if I don't get that much time to play it. I think it is awesome that they are putting out AE edition. It is so awesome to see this company still supporting a game that is four plus years old on top of that there is such an active fan base producing such awesome mods and add-ons to make this an even better game.

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Post #: 28
RE: What A Great Game - 7/12/2009 11:59:42 PM   
IndyShark


Posts: 303
Joined: 7/7/2002
From: Indianapolis
Status: offline
Harder is relative. I don't want to spend hours managing small units every turn. I like the pace of WITP.

In any case, I am sure it will be a lot of fun.

(in reply to Halsey)
Post #: 29
RE: What A Great Game - 7/13/2009 12:00:55 AM   
vettim89


Posts: 3507
Joined: 7/14/2007
From: Toledo, Ohio
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: mjk428


1. WitP is a broken game if you play the AI. Unless one enjoys playing against an "intelligence" that sends all their ships/subs to one spot and can't manage to keep them fueled.

Probably one of the most valid crticisms of the game. Matrix has not hesitated at all to acknowledge this fact and put a lot of man hours into AE to address it

2. Matrix is a fine company.

Concur

3. I am definitely one of the few members of the target demographic. Have been since '81. BTW, it's "Grognard" which means "grumbler".

Well that is true. We are a bunch of grumpy old men for the most part (some older than most and some grumpier than most). War gamers are complainers by nature. Would be interestesting to see some psychology type do a study of the personality characteristics of grognards

4. As much as I want Matrix to succeed, their business is theirs to mind, not mine. They've chosen to provide a public forum and they seem to welcome constructive feedback.

A stance I for one beleive that should be applauded



I am grateful for AE and look forward to playing it for hours on end. Hopefully I will be able to find another fool to join me in a game

_____________________________

"We have met the enemy and they are ours" - Commodore O.H. Perry

(in reply to mjk428)
Post #: 30
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