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RE: AE's price - 7/12/2009 6:35:45 PM   
berto


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Having started and participated in this discussion, I am reminded (deep breath...) why I dislike forum "discussions" and why it's usually the best policy not to post at all, just to lurk. (berto, Matrix Veteran, online since 3/12/2002, a mere 163 posts in all that time)

Erik especially, thank you for your cogent, thoughtful, and pointed responses.

Although I disagree with WitP/AE's marketing arrangement, believing that--by fashioning it around your existing customer base, and downplaying the possibly substantial newcomer and fence-sitter market--you will ultimately earn less revenue by your decision; still, it's your business decision, your company, and of course you can run it as you see fit.

With


  • the post-release, short-term pricing discount
  • the promise of increasing modding activity and many more short-duration scenarios (hence to me playable; complexity is not the issue; it's the time investment)
  • the many fixes in AE to flaws in the first game that contributed to my not buying WitP in the first instance
  • changed life circumstances over the past five years that make it now less "risky" to buy the new game (and, alas, the old game too)


I am now likely to buy in. (Or maybe request it from my family as a Christmas gift; maybe no more HPS titles to add to my collection this year, sigh.)

Likely to buy into WitP/AE, but probably not forum post.

Now, excuse me as I crawl back into that foxhole I foolishly came out of...

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Post #: 181
RE: AE's price - 7/12/2009 6:45:56 PM   
Charles_22


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quote:

ORIGINAL: SuluSea

quote:

ORIGINAL: Charles_22

I'm sorry my specifics were wrong, you made the general statement that you would pay $200 for a computer game as I saw it. Instead, you stated you would pay $200 for AE; not a whole lot of difference there, as it's like I said, little more than an empty boast


I didn't make a "general statement" that I "would pay $200 for a computer game" that's a fact.


quote:

ORIGINAL: Charles_22
. So what this means is that you were so satisfied with WITP, despite not forking out $200 (and I detailed how you could do that - which you didn't) that you would indeed fork out $200 for AE? Understood, and somewhat more plausible, but do understand, whether you did this or not yourself, the context was that we were having people who had not bought either game and you, and others, were trying to use the argument that if you were willing to spend so much on a game, that they should feel that much more certain that they are not taking a gamble to buy it. Sorry SuleSea, I'm not taking a shot at you, as much as I'm tired of the boasting that goes on when trying to convince others of why they should buy the product; as it's total baloney (as I alluded in those posts a few months back). You guys like the product, and Las Vegas is full of people who like to throw money around foolishly, but don't equate money you allegedly willing to spend as a lure for somebody else.


The opinions of the members that are happy with their purchase and post positive comments on their game of choice are just as valid as the members that like to piss and moan about Matrix policies, prices and products. Obviously you suffer from issues that cut much deeper than the price of a wargame. I don't think I'm the only member of this board that notes the hypocrisy in complaining about Matrix prices while using their bandwidth to do it.



Yes, Matrix is so stupid for setting up a website to partially address the complaint needs there may be with their products. I think Talonsoft was one of the last glee club websites IIRC, you might want to run that by them. Oh yeah, they're not around anymore.

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Post #: 182
RE: AE's price - 7/12/2009 6:53:58 PM   
Charles_22


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Panjack

quote:

ORIGINAL: m10bob
Apparently, you do not understand that many of us on this forum have high posting numbers...

Sigh...

quote:

ORIGINAL: m10bob
Your single suggestion seems presumptive...Your legal advice is not needed.

Why the apparent hostility?

I'm not criticizing Matrix Games and will likely buy AE when it comes out. I'm merely saying it would be wise for them to double-check the legal implications of their proposed pricing scheme. I'm pretty sure they are in the clear, but if they're not it's a real problem for them.


I think m10bob stepped out of line there too. You're concerned about them getting caught in a slightly possible loop, and then somebody has to come along and tell you that Matrix doesn't want you. I just wish more people would be willing to speak for Matrix a lot less than they do (when they have absolutely no authority for doing so). I think you did good, and show some concern, even if it will end up turning into some evil scheme to destroy all things Matrix . Heck, I have to put up with the tired cliche that it's hypocrisy to complain about Matrix pricing on the WITP and/or AE and use their badwidth to do it, when that's part of the whole point of the website to enable more easily for the customers complaints there may be, to be met, but, some people think they own Matrix and therefore want to bully others around. Sorry you have to see this, but it does happen rather frequently.

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Post #: 183
RE: AE's price - 7/12/2009 7:40:02 PM   
Bullwinkle58


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quote:

ORIGINAL: flipperwasirish


quote:

ORIGINAL: Panjack

Matrix Games would be wise to check with a good lawyer about their pricing scheme.

I'm not a lawyer...and I'm 99% certain they have nothing to worry about...but on the surface they will be engaged in a "tying scheme" (requiring that X, which the buyer doesn't want, be bought in order to buy Y, which the consumer does want). Companies that have engaged in tying schemes have sometimes found themselves in court having to defend their actions as not violating the law.

Certainly another method of pricing could be used that leads to about the same result (without raising the specter of possible allegations of illegal activity).



Go to law school and you will learn it is without a doubt legal.




Got to this Web site http://www.aurorawdc.com/arj_cics_tying_arrangements.htm and you will learn that it is not an easy question if it is legal.


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Post #: 184
RE: AE's price - 7/12/2009 8:00:38 PM   
Erik Rutins

 

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Ok, this is getting ridiculous. Aside from the fact that, if you define this broadly enough, the entire software industry and every "upgrade" or "expansion pack" ever sold would be illegal, I had to read down only a few lines to find out why this would not apply.

quote:

3. The seller must have sufficient economic power with respect to the tying product to appreciably restrain free competition in the market for the tied product.


Yeah, right. Please explain how were are restraining free competition for War in the Pacific?

quote:

4. The tying arrangement must affect a "not insubstantial" amount of commerce.


By normal market definitions, we do not qualify (unfortunately, I'd rather be "not insubstantial"). Perhaps Microsoft should be more careful about such things, but I don't see a problem here for us. What we're doing is really no different than any game company saying "if you want this expansion, you need to own this game" except that we're a niche company with a niche product. For some reason, when we do it, people get up in arms. Seriously, I'd rather that we just drop this part of the discussion.

Regards,

- Erik




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Post #: 185
RE: AE's price - 7/12/2009 8:03:19 PM   
Terminus


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Certainly a weird train of thought, and not something I'd ever expected to pop up here once the price was announced.

I knew there'd be whining about the cost, but I never thought I'd see some pseudo-legalese mumbo-jumbo to try and claim that the marketing would be ILLEGAL.

Very strange.

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Post #: 186
RE: AE's price - 7/12/2009 8:51:32 PM   
Erik Rutins

 

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Let's just drop that part of the discussion, please.

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Post #: 187
RE: AE's price - 7/12/2009 8:53:45 PM   
Terminus


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Okay. It's pointless anyway.

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Post #: 188
RE: AE's price - 7/12/2009 8:54:28 PM   
JWE

 

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[Edited]


John, consider yourself warned. It doesn't matter if you attack or defend us, this is a family friendly forum and that post was not within the boundaries of acceptable language. Probably better if you cool off offline for a bit before posting again, ok?

Thanks for confirming that there's no legal basis for that though.

Regards,

- Erik


< Message edited by Erik Rutins -- 7/12/2009 9:00:39 PM >


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Post #: 189
RE: AE's price - 7/12/2009 9:08:31 PM   
hurtzDonut


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  I thought you could put whatever price on whatever "item" you wanted.  If no one buys the said "item" for sale then thats the free market at work.  Does everyone want a handout or what!?  Should AE be a 2.5 GB patch or what?  IMHO most WitP junkies will pay whatever Matrix wants because they are providing most of us what we want!  Support and answers to any questions we have. 

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Post #: 190
RE: AE's price - 7/12/2009 9:11:30 PM   
rroberson

 

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Erik

Thanks for readdressing this today. Like many others, while I don't agree with your standpoint on this I do appreciate you discussing it with us.

As far as AE....you guys had me at hello 2 years ago...sad but true I am an addict.


And I will keep strong arming my friends, I'm just waiting to find out how much of a discount you guys are offering with Vanilla.

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Post #: 191
RE: AE's price - 7/12/2009 9:29:33 PM   
Terminus


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A knowledgeable IT professional on our team calculated that if everybody on the team had been paid salary at the going rate (corrected for the part-time status of all of us), and we went on to sell 2,000 copies of the game, the price would have to be $2,200 a pop to break even.

Just trying to insert a bit of perspective.

< Message edited by Terminus -- 7/13/2009 5:06:24 AM >


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Post #: 192
RE: AE's price - 7/12/2009 9:36:09 PM   
AttuWatcher

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: berto

Likely to buy into WitP/AE, but probably not forum post.

Now, excuse me as I crawl back into that foxhole I foolishly came out of...


Sorry to hear that berto...I hope you enjoy WITP/AE

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Post #: 193
RE: AE's price - 7/12/2009 9:41:59 PM   
GaryChildress

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Terminus

A knowledgeable IT professional on our team calculated that if everybody on the team had been paid salary at the going rate (corrected for the part-time status of all of us), and we went on to sell copies of the game, the price would have to be $2,200 a pop to break even.

Just trying to insert a bit of perspective.


Yikes! Thank you all again for your donated time. That really does help put things into proper perspective.

< Message edited by Gary Childress -- 7/12/2009 9:51:15 PM >


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Post #: 194
RE: AE's price - 7/12/2009 9:54:04 PM   
mjk428

 

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I bought my first Grigsby games in 1981.

I pre-ordered UV at a $10 discount.

I bought WitP the day it was released. I gave it several chances but I was not happy with WitP because the AI was so spectacularly worthless. As much as I love the period and enjoyed pushing the pieces around the map.

I don't play PBEM. I have no doubt that PBEM is the "best way" to play WitP but it's just not feasible for me.

I expected AE to be $30-$40 since it's still using the same old engine and IMO it is just a mega-mod. For instance: Still having to play at low resolutions, even though 1920X1200 is common now, screams "MOD" to me. That's not a shot at the developers who I'm sure did amazing things with what they had to work with.

Since AI players got burned last time around, I'll wait to see how AE shakes out before I consider plunking down the hefty price. If it was $30-$40 it would have been another "day one" purchase.

I do think it's unfortunate, that even though AE can stand on its own and is priced as a stand-alone in most people's minds, new players have to pay two admissions. Sucks to be them. :)


I appreciate Erik's openness & honesty and it goes a long way in my wanting support Matrix in its endeavors. Then Terminus comes along and puts me right off again.

< Message edited by mjk428 -- 7/12/2009 9:56:30 PM >


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Post #: 195
RE: AE's price - 7/12/2009 10:04:56 PM   
viberpol


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quote:

ORIGINAL: rroberson

Like many others, while I don't agree with your standpoint on this I do appreciate you discussing it with us.
As far as AE....you guys had me at hello 2 years ago...sad but true I am an addict.


Same here.
An old WITP addict.
I disagree with Matrix standpoint but still -- I respect it.
And Erik, I also appreciate your efforts to provide feedback "from the other side", and taming down all quarrels etc. Good job!
This is what the forum is for -- a free market of thoughts of the free people.

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Post #: 196
RE: AE's price - 7/12/2009 10:15:19 PM   
bilbow


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quote:

ORIGINAL: rroberson


As far as AE....you guys had me at hello 2 years ago...sad but true I am an addict.




Sad to be a addict? I for one am proud of it. I have never had as much enjoyment from any other title in 40 years of gaming. I've been playing literally every day for 5 years now, and look forward to another 5 or more with AE. Bring it on!


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Post #: 197
RE: AE's price - 7/12/2009 10:17:15 PM   
byron13


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Panjack

Matrix Games would be wise to check with a good lawyer about their pricing scheme.

I'm not a lawyer...and I'm 99% certain they have nothing to worry about...but on the surface they will be engaged in a "tying scheme" (requiring that X, which the buyer doesn't want, be bought in order to buy Y, which the consumer does want). Companies that have engaged in tying schemes have sometimes found themselves in court having to defend their actions as not violating the law.

Certainly another method of pricing could be used that leads to about the same result (without raising the specter of possible allegations of illegal activity).



Now we're talking anti-trust? I love it! Yessir: Bell, Microsoft, Standard Oil . . . and Matrix. The big four of monopolists.

You guys need to step back and take a few breaths. The whole concept of anti-trust is to prevent a company with a dominant market position to use its position to create virtually impossible barriers to entry into the market by competitors or to squeeze out smaller competitors with anti-competitive tactics. Matrix is pretty much free to queer its relationship with its own customers if it wants to by charging such a high price that no one will buy the product. If you feel that strongly about it, then go build a better mousetrap: find some investors, produce your own game, and then you can reap all of the outrageous profits that Matrix and the developers will most likely (not) realize.

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Post #: 198
RE: AE's price - 7/12/2009 10:51:44 PM   
IndyShark


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I loved UV and WITP. I'll buy AE and be quite happy thank you.

Thank you Matrix!

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Post #: 199
RE: AE's price - 7/12/2009 10:57:48 PM   
GaryChildress

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: mjk428

I expected AE to be $30-$40 since it's still using the same old engine and IMO it is just a mega-mod. For instance: Still having to play at low resolutions, even though 1920X1200 is common now, screams "MOD" to me. That's not a shot at the developers who I'm sure did amazing things with what they had to work with.



What do you mean by "mod"? I mean, when I or someone tinkers with the data and graphics of an existing scenario or campaign in a game using the editor that is usually referred to as a "mod". But going in and tinkering with hard code and stuff like that, isn't that something more than just a "mod"?

EDIT: Also to put things in perspective War Plan Orange is $45-55 and it is no where near as complex a reworking of the game as AE. How can anyone expect AE to be cheaper than WPO considering the amount of resources that went into it. Granted WPO is a standalone game and doesn't require WITP to run. I don't happen to agree with making it a "requirement" to have WITP to play AE either but that is Matrix's prerogative. I say if someone wants to jump in head first and try to play AE only to find out they can't handle the complexity, let them and let them get stuck with the game.

< Message edited by Gary Childress -- 7/12/2009 11:14:08 PM >


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RE: AE's price - 7/12/2009 11:19:57 PM   
mjk428

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Gary Childress


quote:

ORIGINAL: mjk428

I expected AE to be $30-$40 since it's still using the same old engine and IMO it is just a mega-mod. For instance: Still having to play at low resolutions, even though 1920X1200 is common now, screams "MOD" to me. That's not a shot at the developers who I'm sure did amazing things with what they had to work with.



What do you mean by "mod"? I mean, when I or someone tinkers with the data and graphics of an existing scenario or campaign in a game using the editor that is usually referred to as a "mod". But going in and tinkering with hard code and stuff like that, isn't that something more than just a "mod"?


"mega-mod"

A "mod" is a modification of an original program - even if modified beyond all recognition. AFAIK, AE uses WitP as its base engine. There's nothing derogatory meant in my use of the term. However, there are certain pre-conceived notions that come with "mods" vs "new" games. One of which is that if AE was really new it would sensibly take advantage of current display resolutions.

Matrix has put themselves in a box by on the one hand saying that AE stands on its own two feet and on the other requiring the previous game be installed to run the "new" game. They have every right to do as they see fit but they seem to be blazing a brand new trail with this particular business strategy.


quote:

Also to put things in perspective War Plan Orange is $45-55 and it is no where near as complex a reworking of the game as AE. How can anyone expect AE to be cheaper than WPO considering the amount of resources that went into it. Granted WPO is a standalone game and doesn't require WITP to run. I don't happen to agree with making it a "requirement" to have WITP to play AE either but that is Matrix's prerogative. I say if someone wants to jump in head first and try to play AE only to find out they can't handle the complexity, let them and let them get stuck with the game.


The bolded pretty much answers your question but also:

quote:

New Expansion for War in the Pacific with More Detail, More History, More Features!

http://www.matrixgames.com/news.asp?nid=468


I don't expect "Expansions" to cost almost as much as the original.





< Message edited by mjk428 -- 7/12/2009 11:27:12 PM >


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RE: AE's price - 7/12/2009 11:48:23 PM   
GaryChildress

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: mjk428

quote:

ORIGINAL: Gary Childress


quote:

ORIGINAL: mjk428

I expected AE to be $30-$40 since it's still using the same old engine and IMO it is just a mega-mod. For instance: Still having to play at low resolutions, even though 1920X1200 is common now, screams "MOD" to me. That's not a shot at the developers who I'm sure did amazing things with what they had to work with.



What do you mean by "mod"? I mean, when I or someone tinkers with the data and graphics of an existing scenario or campaign in a game using the editor that is usually referred to as a "mod". But going in and tinkering with hard code and stuff like that, isn't that something more than just a "mod"?


"mega-mod"

A "mod" is a modification of an original program - even if modified beyond all recognition. AFAIK, AE uses WitP as its base engine. There's nothing derogatory meant in my use of the term. However, there are certain pre-conceived notions that come with "mods" vs "new" games. One of which is that if AE was really new it would sensibly take advantage of current display resolutions.

Matrix has put themselves in a box by on the one hand saying that AE stands on its own two feet and on the other requiring the previous game be installed to run the "new" game. They have every right to do as they see fit but they seem to be blazing a brand new trail with this particular business strategy.


quote:

Also to put things in perspective War Plan Orange is $45-55 and it is no where near as complex a reworking of the game as AE. How can anyone expect AE to be cheaper than WPO considering the amount of resources that went into it. Granted WPO is a standalone game and doesn't require WITP to run. I don't happen to agree with making it a "requirement" to have WITP to play AE either but that is Matrix's prerogative. I say if someone wants to jump in head first and try to play AE only to find out they can't handle the complexity, let them and let them get stuck with the game.


The bolded pretty much answers your question but also:

quote:

New Expansion for War in the Pacific with More Detail, More History, More Features!

http://www.matrixgames.com/news.asp?nid=468


I don't expect "Expansions" to cost almost as much as the original.



Well, the Close Combat series was basically one expansion of the same engine upon the other. Each one cost full price. Panzer General, Allied General and Pacific General shared game engines. HPS games' Panzer Campaign series are simply expansions of the same engine but still cost full price. There are a lot of games out there that share game engines which are all full price regardless. I mean, I wonder if games like C&C I utilize the same fundamental engine as C&C II. The cosmetics and play are a bit different but they are maybe equally priced version of the same overall engine. I don't know...

HPS games recently came out with a new series called Total War in Europe. Some of the scenarios in the TWiE series are already covered in the Panzer Campaign series only the scale appears different. The interface of TWiE even looks similar to the Panzer Campaign series. For that matter AE has changed its scale as well. 1 hex = 40 miles instead of 60 (IIRC).

Also look at WPO. It wasn't bundled with WITP because it basically has the same complexity as WITP. Matrix believes that AE is so much more complex than WITP that it requires one as a stepping stone to the other.

I think it is one thing to have expected the price to be cheaper but to continue to expect the price to be cheaper (given what we know about the development of the game) just doesn't seem to make much sense to me. If you're simply saying you once expected the price to be cheaper then I probably did too. But if you still expect the price to be cheaper I don't see why, given the idiosyncrasies of the game.

< Message edited by Gary Childress -- 7/12/2009 11:49:47 PM >


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Post #: 202
RE: AE's price - 7/12/2009 11:54:58 PM   
Dixie


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It doesn't really matter what I say, it'll have no bearing on the situation but still:  Making it a requirement to own WitP first, whilst not an issue for some, is not a great idea by any stretch of the imagination.  The price doesn't really bother me, but why should a new customer get charged for two games, one of which they will probably never play?  If someone buys a game and it's too hard or complex for them, then that's too bad.  I would think that almost all those people who are interested in the game are going to be aware of the types of games Matrix releases and will know it's going to be complex.  If they aren't aware then they can ask about the complexity...  After all, time spent in recce is seldom wasted. 


In essence, the price of AE:  I don't care.  Making new customers buy both games:  Bad idea.


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Post #: 203
RE: AE's price - 7/12/2009 11:55:47 PM   
mjk428

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Gary Childress
I think it is one thing to have expected the price to be cheaper but to continue to expect the price to be cheaper (given what we know about the development of the game) just doesn't seem to make much sense to me. If you're simply saying you once expected the price to be cheaper then I probably did too. But if you still expect the price to be cheaper I don't see why, given the idiosyncrasies of the game.




Of course I don't still expect it to be priced around $40. I now expect it to be $60.

The tipoff in my original post should have been the use of the past tense "expected".





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Post #: 204
RE: AE's price - 7/13/2009 12:21:38 AM   
GaryChildress

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: mjk428


quote:

ORIGINAL: Gary Childress
I think it is one thing to have expected the price to be cheaper but to continue to expect the price to be cheaper (given what we know about the development of the game) just doesn't seem to make much sense to me. If you're simply saying you once expected the price to be cheaper then I probably did too. But if you still expect the price to be cheaper I don't see why, given the idiosyncrasies of the game.




Of course I don't still expect it to be priced around $40. I now expect it to be $60.

The tipoff in my original post should have been the use of the past tense "expected".






You got me there.

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Post #: 205
RE: AE's price - 7/13/2009 2:16:11 AM   
Buck Beach

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Erik Rutins


quote:

ORIGINAL: kafka
Would you recommend AE to those too who exclusively play against the AI?


If you enjoy WITP and like to play against the AI, I would _definitely_ recommend AE. The AI in WITP gets fairly stagnant after a while, mainly acting on the defensive. The AI in AE is much better than the WITP AI. It is still not as good as a human opponent, but it will give you a major wake up call if you're used to the WITP AI. And it will not stagnate, it's active through the whole war.




Even though I have already decided to buy AE, now you are singing my song because there is no way I would be playing PBEM. Hurray!!

(in reply to Erik Rutins)
Post #: 206
RE: AE's price - 7/13/2009 2:39:03 AM   
goodwoodrw


Posts: 2445
Joined: 2/14/2005
Status: online
Sometimes in sport, the pre entertainment is almost as good as the the big game. This thread is no different. If AE is as entertaining as this thread, Matrix is on a winner

_____________________________

Formerly Goodwood


(in reply to Buck Beach)
Post #: 207
RE: AE's price - 7/13/2009 4:07:59 AM   
Bullwinkle58


Posts: 11301
Joined: 2/24/2009
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Erik Rutins

Ok, this is getting ridiculous. Aside from the fact that, if you define this broadly enough, the entire software industry and every "upgrade" or "expansion pack" ever sold would be illegal, I had to read down only a few lines to find out why this would not apply.

quote:

3. The seller must have sufficient economic power with respect to the tying product to appreciably restrain free competition in the market for the tied product.


quote:

Yeah, right. Please explain how were are restraining free competition for War in the Pacific?


Since you asked, because you own the copyright. Nobody else can sell WITP. You have 100% power. Tying does not have to apply only to two products made by the same firm. It can apply when Firm A refuses to sell its product to customer Z unless Z also buys Firm B's product. If Firm B sells boat-loads of that product with or without A's tying, then there's no problem.

quote:

4. The tying arrangement must affect a "not insubstantial" amount of commerce.


quote:

By normal market definitions, we do not qualify (unfortunately, I'd rather be "not insubstantial").


As I understand case law, the test is not absolute size, or size vis a vis a market leader like MS. It's simply that the economic impact is not de minimus. This is a legal term of art that has no hard and fast definition. It's situational.

quote:

What we're doing is really no different than any game company saying "if you want this expansion, you need to own this game" except that we're a niche company with a niche product.


No, the diffeence is you engineered the product to NOT be an expansion. You added code to force the install check; you've said here that AE does not share code with WITP. A "normal" expansion won't run without its parent. AE would. That doesn't help your case.

quote:

For some reason, when we do it, people get up in arms. Seriously, I'd rather that we just drop this part of the discussion.



And I will. Usenet is better for this type of discussion anyway. It seems as if some posters here have trouble following.

_____________________________

The Moose

(in reply to Erik Rutins)
Post #: 208
RE: AE's price - 7/13/2009 4:41:56 AM   
Flying Tiger

 

Posts: 493
Joined: 3/11/2008
From: ummmm... i HATE that question!
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: BASB

Sometimes in sport, the pre entertainment is almost as good as the the big game. This thread is no different. If AE is as entertaining as this thread, Matrix is on a winner



i'm with you mate. This is fantastic. JWE gets an official warning. Even T got put back in his box. Will be sad when the game actually arrives and all this fun ends!!

(in reply to goodwoodrw)
Post #: 209
RE: AE's price - 7/13/2009 5:00:42 AM   
Tophat1815

 

Posts: 1804
Joined: 1/16/2006
Status: offline
 For the pain and suffering of caused by reading this thread I think the Devs should raise the price by $10.

(in reply to Bullwinkle58)
Post #: 210
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