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RE: AE's price - 7/12/2009 1:30:38 AM   
Splinterhead


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Erik Rutins

We don't discuss royalty details publicly, but the AE team certainly deserves to be rewarded.




Back when I was paid for my mind, they'd reward me for service beyond with frozen yogurt...mmmm

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Post #: 121
RE: AE's price - 7/12/2009 1:41:32 AM   
pasternakski


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Charles_22
There's just so many stupid people out there that just need prior versions of games in order to have a chance of understanding the newer versions, don't you think? Pretty good sales pitch anyway.

Charles, UV was a game that stood on its own for more than two years before WitP saw the light of day. You know that as well as anyone else. Shoot, you've even been on these forums longer than I have.

It was a good, fun game. What's wrong with that? So were PacWar and the other Grigsby games along the way (some better than others, yes).

I never used to see you as somebody with an odd axe to grind, but I'm sure Gimli is somewhere shaking his head at you these days.

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Post #: 122
RE: AE's price - 7/12/2009 2:06:13 AM   
Erik Rutins

 

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It surprises me too, folks. We've been clear from the start on two points:

1. AE will require WITP
2. AE will cost a bit less than WITP, but not much.

With a few of the reactions I'm seeing here, you'd think it was Pearl Harbor all over again. I'm getting the sense that for some folks it's not so much the price as it is the decision to make it require WITP.

People are free to disagree with us and free to make their own purchase decisions. The fact is that we have played AE and we feel that having WITP as a prerequisite to it makes sense both from a scenario content and complexity level. We don't want new customers to see AE as a replacement for WITP, we want them to see it as a more advanced level of WITP they may want to go to once they've mastered WITP.

WITP is one of the best games we've ever made and has given wargamers years of fun. It's also getting another update after AE's release and still has legs. We're not ready to retire it yet, especially when we feel it's a good stepping stone complexity-wise to AE. Yes, UV was a good stepping stone to WITP as well but that was also a different situation and a different time.

Regards,

- Erik

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Post #: 123
RE: AE's price - 7/12/2009 2:10:11 AM   
USSAmerica


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Erik Rutins


With a few of the reactions I'm seeing here, you'd think it was Pearl Harbor all over again.



Even worse, you'd think it was "that movie" all over again.

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Post #: 124
RE: AE's price - 7/12/2009 2:13:40 AM   
RevRick


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Don't fret, Erik. It appears that there are always going to be some people who have to find a reason to justify not doing something they want to do. Whining about prices or prerequisites is the usual means of allowing oneself to get mad enough to say 'No' when one doesn't wants to say 'Yes' but doesn't have the chutzpha to go ahead with it. There is only one decision with two possible answers. All the sturm and drang is really superfluous balloon juice.

I will have to convince the Finance Department that it is necessary (continued mental health works fine with me), but I will be playing AE as soon as it is released.

Good job, mates...

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Post #: 125
RE: AE's price - 7/12/2009 2:40:57 AM   
bradfordkay

 

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I agree with the idea of making WITP a requirement for AE. If I had not played UV as much as I had before WITP came out, I am sure that I would have felt even more overwhelmed than I was upon starting it up. As it was, it came out during my busy time of the year, and so I shelved it for a couple of months until I had the time to thoroughly peruse it. Had I not already experienced UV, it is quite possible that I wouldn't have made the attempt to understand WITP once I finally had the time to dig into the monster(and your lives would have been better for my absence, I am sure - but too bad!)

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Post #: 126
RE: AE's price - 7/12/2009 2:59:17 AM   
madgamer2

 

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As of this date and after reading Erik's post we know the price now. You strike me as not unlike myself during my board game and early computer game period in a somewhat better economic climate and being many years younger.
You are the only one who can answer the question of "Is it worth it to me?" I will buy AE as I have WitP and even though I am not a very good player and can barely beat the AI and can't play the Jap side due to not understanding the production system except it requires to much of my time.
i will play AE in the same manor as WitP against the AI and slowly because of its difficulty. I too being retired and not having as much money know in my heart of hearts that I should not buy AE as I have difficulty with WitP so it is really a waste of $$$$ so to speak but hay you only go around once in life and sometimes you just have to do something...well stupid and this for me is one of those times.

For you not having WitP buying the download version of both would bee the least cost but hey if you go that far go for the download/hard copy of AE and download only for WitP.
Good luck in your choice.

Madgamer

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Post #: 127
RE: AE's price - 7/12/2009 3:11:25 AM   
ny59giants_MatrixForum


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Considering the amount of money I have spent on World War II board games and now computer games since the mid-70s, I don't think the price is too much. I have other computer games, but only have WITP loaded on my computer while the others gather dust.

I look forward to the date AE is made available and will be like many long time fans of this game, whipping out my debit card and feeling the need for a few days of "sick time" from work.    

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Post #: 128
RE: AE's price - 7/12/2009 3:52:31 AM   
medicff

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Apollo11

Hi all,

I own UV and I own WitP.

I will most certainly buy the WitP-AE the minute it is available!


Just ask yourself how many days / weeks / months / years of enjoyment, fun and fantastic game value those titles brought us in the past?

What else is / was there on the market that even come near to that?

How much money you spend, in all these years, on the titles that you played just for few days / weeks?


IMHO the price is fully justified and we should all be very very grateful to:

2By3 (original authors and programmers)

Matrix (producers who enabled all of this)

WitP-AE Team (great people, part of our community here, who devoted their time and made the new WitP-AE without pay)


Thank you guys for fantastic work!!!


Yes... I know... it is recession... these are hard times... but I will still gladly pay for the good book, good movie and great game the WitP-AE will most certainly be!



Leo "Apollo11"



I concur all the way on every point.

Thanks everyone for all your time and effort to get AE to this point.


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Post #: 129
RE: AE's price - 7/12/2009 4:11:41 AM   
kfmiller41


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Personally I cannot imagine anyone who has not played WITP just jumping into AE anyway. Just thinking of that gives me the shivers as I have been playing for years and still have major trouble keeping things strait. But it is just so much fun trying and each turn has the potential for lots of things to happen and for your plans to either work out of go to pieces which is why i enjoy it. Best value for any game I have ever owned and like others I have owned alot of games. The fact that this much effort and time has been put into the AE edition and all the posts from the testers and coders means they have tried to make it as good as they can and that is worth the cost IMHO. It is also why I buy games from matrix. Surely do not want this company to go under.

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Post #: 130
RE: AE's price - 7/12/2009 5:12:15 AM   
Charles_22


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lesbaker

Sheesh, all this soul searching over the price of what I am sure will be an excellent game; confounds me, I could understand it if the game was on offer in some Morrocan bassar where haggling is the norm, however this game is being offered for sale in the capitalist west and as such it is the norm that the company suppying the merchandise sets the price, and you decide whether to pay it or not. I'm fairly sure that most of the people that frequent this forum really couldn't careless whether you buy it or not.

All the sale pitches say otherwise. Don't you know? You're saving the genre by buying AE.

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Post #: 131
RE: AE's price - 7/12/2009 5:19:27 AM   
Panjack

 

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Matrix Games would be wise to check with a good lawyer about their pricing scheme.

I'm not a lawyer...and I'm 99% certain they have nothing to worry about...but on the surface they will be engaged in a "tying scheme" (requiring that X, which the buyer doesn't want, be bought in order to buy Y, which the consumer does want). Companies that have engaged in tying schemes have sometimes found themselves in court having to defend their actions as not violating the law.

Certainly another method of pricing could be used that leads to about the same result (without raising the specter of possible allegations of illegal activity).

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Post #: 132
RE: AE's price - 7/12/2009 5:31:06 AM   
GaryChildress

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Charles_22


quote:

ORIGINAL: Lesbaker

Sheesh, all this soul searching over the price of what I am sure will be an excellent game; confounds me, I could understand it if the game was on offer in some Morrocan bassar where haggling is the norm, however this game is being offered for sale in the capitalist west and as such it is the norm that the company suppying the merchandise sets the price, and you decide whether to pay it or not. I'm fairly sure that most of the people that frequent this forum really couldn't careless whether you buy it or not.

All the sale pitches say otherwise. Don't you know? You're saving the genre by buying AE.


Charles, I don't think you should buy AE. Don't buy it. AE is not worth the price for you.

It's not a matter of saving the genre, it's a matter of R-E-A-L-I-T-Y. A game with an extremely narrow audience is not going to sell cheap. Think of the airline industry. You can probably fly from Miami to San Francisco cheaper than the price of flying from Miami to Pensacola. Why is that?

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Post #: 133
RE: AE's price - 7/12/2009 5:33:57 AM   
wworld7


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Panjack

Matrix Games would be wise to check with a good lawyer about their pricing scheme.

I'm not a lawyer...and I'm 99% certain they have nothing to worry about...but on the surface they will be engaged in a "tying scheme" (requiring that X, which the buyer doesn't want, be bought in order to buy Y, which the consumer does want). Companies that have engaged in tying schemes have sometimes found themselves in court having to defend their actions as not violating the law.

Certainly another method of pricing could be used that leads to about the same result (without raising the specter of possible allegations of illegal activity).



Go to law school and you will learn it is without a doubt legal.



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Post #: 134
RE: AE's price - 7/12/2009 5:38:06 AM   
GaryChildress

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Panjack

Matrix Games would be wise to check with a good lawyer about their pricing scheme.

I'm not a lawyer...and I'm 99% certain they have nothing to worry about...but on the surface they will be engaged in a "tying scheme" (requiring that X, which the buyer doesn't want, be bought in order to buy Y, which the consumer does want). Companies that have engaged in tying schemes have sometimes found themselves in court having to defend their actions as not violating the law.

Certainly another method of pricing could be used that leads to about the same result (without raising the specter of possible allegations of illegal activity).



OTOH if Matrix doesn't bundle WITP with AE and a newbie buys AE thinking s/he can handle the complexity but can't, then how many cases will there be of people complaining that they got swindled out of $70? With a game of this complexity you are probably equally well off to guard against people saying that they can't play the game and demanding their money back. At least Matrix can say they gave them WITP at a fair price.

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Post #: 135
RE: AE's price - 7/12/2009 5:50:18 AM   
Panjack

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Gary Childress

OTOH if Matrix doesn't bundle WITP with AE and a newbie buys AE thinking s/he can handle the complexity but can't, then how many cases will there be of people complaining that they got swindled out of $70? With a game of this complexity you are probably equally well off to guard against people saying that they can't play the game and demanding their money back. At least Matrix can say they gave them WITP at a fair price.

I understand what you're saying. But a few complaining customers don't compare to hiring a lawyer to defend yourself in court.

And when businesses try to defend themselves in court by saying, "we were just protecting our potentially foolish customers" any good opposition lawyer would quickly raise questions about the believability of that claim. IF the concern is that some people find themselves over their heads with AE, then a simple statement of that possibility in the game description protects Matrix Games and keeps MG out of court.

I can think of a number of legal and accounting reasons that Matrix Games might prefer to shift some of their revenue from AE to WITP that have nothing to do with paternalism towards potentially foolish buyers.

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Post #: 136
RE: AE's price - 7/12/2009 5:50:56 AM   
Charles_22


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quote:

ORIGINAL: pasternakski


quote:

ORIGINAL: Charles_22
There's just so many stupid people out there that just need prior versions of games in order to have a chance of understanding the newer versions, don't you think? Pretty good sales pitch anyway.

Charles, UV was a game that stood on its own for more than two years before WitP saw the light of day. You know that as well as anyone else. Shoot, you've even been on these forums longer than I have.

It was a good, fun game. What's wrong with that? So were PacWar and the other Grigsby games along the way (some better than others, yes).

I never used to see you as somebody with an odd axe to grind, but I'm sure Gimli is somewhere shaking his head at you these days.

Funny pasternakski, as Gimli and I aren't acquainted. No, just pretty much fed up with the yesman baloney. As for me, I haven't seen a good Grigsby game since PW. UV might had been, but since WITP was based on it I would highly doubt it. Maybe GG captures my interest again with WITE? BTR and WITP, which I bought both of, were disasters as far as I'm concerned. It's really too bad that Talonsoft had anything with BTR, because I really liked USAAF. Hopefully this treatment of the WITP/AE relationship doesn't turn me off against grognard wargaming entirely, but with they aforementioned failures, and now this, it's all starting to add up. Yes, as somebody said earlier, nobody cares whether I buy it, except, perhaps, as it only concerns forwarding the hobby. But as you can now more clearly sense, the hobby has come very short for me for a long time now and generic wargaming is looking better and better (Civ, Sins of a Solar Empire, etc.) so I'm not so sure the hobby is worth saving if it comes up with the turnips I'm seeing. Oh well.....

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Post #: 137
RE: AE's price - 7/12/2009 5:59:25 AM   
GaryChildress

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Panjack


quote:

ORIGINAL: Gary Childress

OTOH if Matrix doesn't bundle WITP with AE and a newbie buys AE thinking s/he can handle the complexity but can't, then how many cases will there be of people complaining that they got swindled out of $70? With a game of this complexity you are probably equally well off to guard against people saying that they can't play the game and demanding their money back. At least Matrix can say they gave them WITP at a fair price.

I understand what you're saying. But a few complaining customers don't compare to hiring a lawyer to defend yourself in court.

And when businesses try to defend themselves in court by saying, "we were just protecting our potentially foolish customers" any good opposition lawyer would quickly raise questions about the believability of that claim. IF the concern is that some people find themselves over their heads with AE, then a simple statement of that possibility in the game description protects Matrix Games and keeps MG out of court.



Why would Matrix be going to court for by bundling two products together? If Ronco bundles Ginsu knives with an egg beater and I just want the Ginsu knives does that mean Ronco can get sued for bundling the Ginsu knives with an egg beater?

< Message edited by Gary Childress -- 7/12/2009 6:01:08 AM >


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Post #: 138
RE: AE's price - 7/12/2009 6:01:04 AM   
goodwoodrw


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Just for the record I will probably buy AE sooner or later, and I have owned WITP from the start. Now to the point of my post. In my opinion I think it is a bit rich to expect new comers to this franchise to buy WITP, as it becomes an expensive purchase of around $130 US to buy a new game. That makes it the single mostly costly computer game on the market. It is easy for me or any other person that already owns WITP to say its worth it, where seventy bucks in front already. The question is why should somebody pay for 5 years gaming they haven't played.Now for the real smoke screen, WITP is a complex game, but is AE much much more complex than WITP, in what I have on this forum no I don't think so, maybe greater depth and detail and just a little more complex. Really WITP is a $70 tutorial in the manner Erik suggests that newcomers need to be eased into AE. I think Matrix should due respect to its prospective buyer of AE, in the way if have the ability to grasp WITP, they will have the ability to grasp AE. Matrix, it is your product you choose to market the way you want, but please no smoke screens, the product is either an add on or a new product. If you guys think its worth $130 then charge that, but don't make people buy both products, to justify it's price, most gamers are a little more intelligent than you that.
Ron

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Post #: 139
RE: AE's price - 7/12/2009 6:16:30 AM   
GaryChildress

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: BASB

Just for the record I will probably buy AE sooner or later, and I have owned WITP from the start. Now to the point of my post. In my opinion I think it is a bit rich to expect new comers to this franchise to buy WITP, as it becomes an expensive purchase of around $130 US to buy a new game. That makes it the single mostly costly computer game on the market.


Where are you getting $130 from? I thought the two games were being bundled for $70?

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RE: AE's price - 7/12/2009 6:23:24 AM   
kwoolsey

 

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As a long time lurker from day one of the boards, I have to say this is one of the most ridiculous threads ever. Purely assumptive and filled with idle speculation.

Now, back to checking the forum daily for the Gold! announcement. Woot!

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Post #: 141
RE: AE's price - 7/12/2009 6:30:37 AM   
GaryChildress

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: kwoolsey

As a long time lurker from day one of the boards, I have to say this is one of the most ridiculous threads ever. Purely assumptive and filled with idle speculation.



You got me there.

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Post #: 142
RE: AE's price - 7/12/2009 6:32:11 AM   
goodwoodrw


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The smoke might be getting in my eyes, but the price your suggesting is discounting WITP to ten bucks, for those newbies that's a bonus, 'm not sure if Erik has actually mentioned a discount figure for WITP

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RE: AE's price - 7/12/2009 6:41:30 AM   
GaryChildress

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: BASB

The smoke might be getting in my eyes, but the price your suggesting is discounting WITP to ten bucks, for those newbies that's a bonus, 'm not sure if Erik has actually mentioned a discount figure for WITP


I thought I saw something to that effect a while back in the posts. Maybe I didn't. I can't find what I think I saw now.

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Post #: 144
RE: AE's price - 7/12/2009 6:52:05 AM   
goodwoodrw


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Yep I just had another look as well, Erik has only mentioned that WITP will discounted for a short time at the release of AE.
In my opinion the way the pricing should be done is maybe a higher price for a stand alone AE and a discount price for WITP owners, I think Matrix has got it wrong, but I guess future sales will tell that story, we will never be privy to that info, so we'll never really know!

< Message edited by BASB -- 7/12/2009 7:32:57 AM >


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RE: AE's price - 7/12/2009 6:54:23 AM   
GaryChildress

 

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It looks like you are right, $130 or somewhere in that neighborhood for both. Looking at Erik's FAQ thread just now.

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RE: AE's price - 7/12/2009 7:06:25 AM   
51st Highland Div


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Gary Childress


quote:

ORIGINAL: kwoolsey

As a long time lurker from day one of the boards, I have to say this is one of the most ridiculous threads ever. Purely assumptive and filled with idle speculation.



You got me there.


Best post of the whole thread...for me im just happy AE is close to being released and not caring one jot about the price..roll on Gold


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RE: AE's price - 7/12/2009 7:21:47 AM   
Panjack

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: flipperwasirish
Go to law school and you will learn it is without a doubt legal.

I haven't gone to law school. But I disagree that is obviously legal if only because federal anti-trust law makes some types of tying contracts illegal. Perhaps the Sherman and Clayton Acts are not relevant to this particular situation, but if they are and Matrix Games gets hauled into court that might be the end of Matrix Games.

If I was them I'd consult with a good lawyer before following their proposed pricing scheme.

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Post #: 148
RE: AE's price - 7/12/2009 7:35:22 AM   
RHoenig


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Erik Rutins

It surprises me too, folks. We've been clear from the start on two points:

1. AE will require WITP
2. AE will cost a bit less than WITP, but not much.

With a few of the reactions I'm seeing here, you'd think it was Pearl Harbor all over again. I'm getting the sense that for some folks it's not so much the price as it is the decision to make it require WITP.

People are free to disagree with us and free to make their own purchase decisions. The fact is that we have played AE and we feel that having WITP as a prerequisite to it makes sense both from a scenario content and complexity level. We don't want new customers to see AE as a replacement for WITP, we want them to see it as a more advanced level of WITP they may want to go to once they've mastered WITP.

WITP is one of the best games we've ever made and has given wargamers years of fun. It's also getting another update after AE's release and still has legs. We're not ready to retire it yet, especially when we feel it's a good stepping stone complexity-wise to AE. Yes, UV was a good stepping stone to WITP as well but that was also a different situation and a different time.

Regards,

- Erik



Hit the nail right on the head for me, here.

I own WITP, so bundeling it with AE isn´t the big deal for me
I was also well aware from the get go, that I would need WITP to play AE
I was (more like, my brain) making the connection "WITP needed" --> AE sharing files with WITP. Now this was ok with me. Sure, the expansion is a bit expensive, but sure worth it.
Requiring WITP for AE "just for the heck of it" doesn´t realy sit well with me. I´ll get AE nonetheless, mind you, but still....

You said a page or two earlier:



quote:

No, it's a way to make sure that we don't get folks jumping into AE and subsequently running for their lives. WITP is a stepping stone to AE, simple as that. It is also still a great game in its own right.

quote:

And even if you call it an expansion...70 bucks for an expansion...ouch. I can think of no other examples where a game company (and Im sure about 20 fanboys are about to prove me wrong ) releases an expansion that requires the original game and it costs as much. Given that you didn't pay the people who developed this for you...sounds like a money grab. Whatever, the price has pushed me on the fence. I am fairly certain one night in a frenzy of AAR readings I will purchase it, but I am squarely on the fence right now.

It's not an expansion. It's its own game. It installs as a stand-alone, but requires ownership of WITP. I realize this is not a "typical" arrangement and that may be causing some of this confusion. You're trying to find an analog in the normal mainstream marketing of games. WITP is not a mainstream game, this is not a typical situation and there is not an exact analog.

Wargaming is a niche, "monster" wargaming is an extreme niche and this is what it basically costs to continue development on these kinds of games, once every five years. That doesn't seem particularly steep to me when I look at how much development and research is involved. Frankly, if we had made AE stand-alone, then the price on its own would have been high enough that I could see people balking and that also would have been called unfair by many. It is what it is. We've set the price, each person has to decide if it's right for them, given what we've announced we are delivering for that price.

For people who already own WITP, you are really getting a full new game in terms of development effort when you purchase AE, but it works like WITP so your learning curve should be a bit easier than it would be for someone starting out fresh. For those who don't have either, WITP is a step on the way to AE, some may get there, some may not.

Regards,

- Erik


This is reasoning I (as I have allready played WITP) can accept.
That being said, for the "New" player, who hasn´t played WITP allready, it doesn´t fly, IMO

Look at it this way (hypotetical scenario following):
Empire Earth III has just come out
Oh, I am somewhat interrested in that kind of game
Ok, let´see. It´s 49.98, well, ok, I´ll give it a go
Oh, I have to first purchase and install EE II?? What the f***, I don´t want EE II, I want EE III!

Even if Empire Earth II would be in the bargain bin for 9.99, this potential customer would probably be lost at that point.
As you suspected above, it isn´t about the price, it´s about why people are forced to buy WITP when all they want to play is AE

Personally, I would have prefered to have a higher price for AE as a stand alone with a discount for those allready owning WITP.
With a big, bright, red, flashing sign on the buy-page "WITP EXPERIENCE HIGHLY RECCOMENDED!!!"

The end-effect would have been the same without the "devious scheemer" syndrome


You probably know this, but I will say it anyway:
I (we) want Matrix to do well, otherwise I would be off lurking somewhere else and playing some other games and I fear, this pricing model will hurt your sales which, again, I don´t want to see!

Ralph Hoenig, Germany

(in reply to Erik Rutins)
Post #: 149
RE: AE's price - 7/12/2009 8:16:05 AM   
myros

 

Posts: 289
Joined: 7/1/2004
Status: offline
An old debate regarding software sale points (and indeed any product really, but always been clear with software in particular).

Recognizing you have a niche market do you:
a. Sell a product for 800 estimating you will sell 10 copies
b. Sell the product for 80 estimating you will sell 100 copies

Games have almost always fallen into the 'b' category, with a few noted exceptions. Witp was to me one of those exceptions, when I purchased it it was the most expensive game I have ever purchased. Was it worth it to me? Sure, no complaints but IMO it was mistake to price it so high as the higher price point always shuts out the impulse buy. Especialy when it comes to expansion time eg in the example give you would now have 100 potential customers to sell an expansion too rather than 10. Or dropping the original to the low price so you can sell the expansion at full price? That would make more sense to me, but hey ... Im guessing you have your own marketing guys. Just that IMO they are wrong :)

An interesting discussion on software pricing here:
http://discuss.fogcreek.com/joelonsoftware/default.asp?cmd=show&ixPost=51958

(in reply to RHoenig)
Post #: 150
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