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RE: AE's price - 7/11/2009 7:00:29 PM   
Charles2222


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quote:

ORIGINAL: drw61

Charles_22
This is a really simple decision, if it is not worth the money to you don't purchase it.   Maybe you should spend that next couple of months reading the AE AARs and forums, that way you can make a more informed decision if the price is worth it. 

Sheesh, what do you think I have been doing the past months? It's not a different game; simple as that. I'm still debating whether $60+ for a fix with some cosmetic changes, is either ripping me again or is a costly adjustment to make WITP playable. And no, micromanagement doesn't scare me, as I don't consider that a broken part of WITP. The bottom line is either I gamble and get it when it comes out, and seeing the response I have seen for some people who are trying to reinstall WITP on a newer computer, I'm none too encouraged that such a thing has any reliability, or I do the sane thing and study the real AE, the one I see where the problems start becoming much more apparent through the forum afterwards. Still on the fence.

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Post #: 91
RE: AE's price - 7/11/2009 7:02:40 PM   
Tophat1815

 

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Your right,you probably wouldn't like it.It certainly seems to already be causing you some emotional angst.

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Post #: 92
RE: AE's price - 7/11/2009 7:04:10 PM   
Terminus


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Well, if you're going to make a decision like this based on no data whatsoever, then that's your prerogative. Just don't try to make it our problem.

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Post #: 93
RE: AE's price - 7/11/2009 7:08:20 PM   
Charles2222


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Terminus

Well, if you're going to make a decision like this based on no data whatsoever, then that's your prerogative. Just don't try to make it our problem.

I guess not agreeing with somebody amounts to not reading the forums for some people. Go figure! Predicting the AE price within a penny, for something Eric said "once" is hardly the trait of somebody knowing anything, but just go shooting off your mouth some more T, it's what you're good at!

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Post #: 94
RE: AE's price - 7/11/2009 7:26:06 PM   
JWE

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Charles_22


quote:

ORIGINAL: Terminus

Well, if you're going to make a decision like this based on no data whatsoever, then that's your prerogative. Just don't try to make it our problem.

I guess not agreeing with somebody amounts to not reading the forums for some people. Go figure! Predicting the AE price within a penny, for something Eric said "once" is hardly the trait of somebody knowing anything, but just go shooting off your mouth some more T, it's what you're good at!

No worries Terminus. Nobody thinks much about the cockroaches after the exterminator comes.

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Post #: 95
RE: AE's price - 7/11/2009 7:32:16 PM   
Terminus


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Too bad he's overdue...

Anyway, like I said, it's his prerogative to make decisions made on whatever data he thinks he has.

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Post #: 96
RE: AE's price - 7/11/2009 8:18:41 PM   
Erik Rutins

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Dili
I said two versions. One extension for witp users with whatever price you guys are thinking about.
Another standalone for new users with a standalone game like price. Hey it could have been even the same value of witp+AE, if a gamer doesn't have to install witp to play AE it is already a benefit over current intended system.


I'd have to disagree with that. WITP is an excellent game in its own right and has scenario content that is not in AE. Getting both for the same price instead of one would seem to me to be a benefit, rather than the other way around.

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Post #: 97
RE: AE's price - 7/11/2009 8:23:56 PM   
Erik Rutins

 

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Charles,

quote:

ORIGINAL: Charles_22
Sheesh, what do you think I have been doing the past months? It's not a different game; simple as that. I'm still debating whether $60+ for a fix with some cosmetic changes, is either ripping me again or is a costly adjustment to make WITP playable.


Like it or not, you _are_ jumping to conclusions based on what appears to be a complete misunderstanding of the actual facts. AE is a heck of a lot more than a fix with cosmetic changes. Virtually every part of WITP has been either rewritten, adjusted or overhauled, including new combat, repair and economic systems as well as a completely new AI. The total development time put into AE is more than was invested in WITP. If it appears from screenshots and AARs similar to you superficially similar, then the dev team did its job of making WITP players feel at home in AE despite all the changes.

If you don't want to buy it, no problem, but continuing to claim that it's only a bug fix with cosmetic changes is fundamentally incorrect and I'm not going to give you a pass on that. You don't have AE, but you sure do have enough information to educate yourself and open your eyes to what has really been accomplished here.

Regards,

- Erik



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Post #: 98
RE: AE's price - 7/11/2009 9:15:40 PM   
Historiker


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It's really gentle that you don't simply ignore such postings!

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Post #: 99
RE: AE's price - 7/11/2009 9:34:43 PM   
rroberson

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Erik Rutins

Charles,

quote:

ORIGINAL: Charles_22
Sheesh, what do you think I have been doing the past months? It's not a different game; simple as that. I'm still debating whether $60+ for a fix with some cosmetic changes, is either ripping me again or is a costly adjustment to make WITP playable.


Like it or not, you _are_ jumping to conclusions based on what appears to be a complete misunderstanding of the actual facts. AE is a heck of a lot more than a fix with cosmetic changes. Virtually every part of WITP has been either rewritten, adjusted or overhauled, including new combat, repair and economic systems as well as a completely new AI. The total development time put into AE is more than was invested in WITP. If it appears from screenshots and AARs similar to you superficially similar, then the dev team did its job of making WITP players feel at home in AE despite all the changes.

If you don't want to buy it, no problem, but continuing to claim that it's only a bug fix with cosmetic changes is fundamentally incorrect and I'm not going to give you a pass on that. You don't have AE, but you sure do have enough information to educate yourself and open your eyes to what has really been accomplished here.

Regards,

- Erik





If all this is true. Why do people have to own Vanilla to get AE? I think that's the thing that has me annoyed about the price. It would be one thing if it was a new off the shelf game, but requiring people to own Vanilla to run AE makes it a mod. And even if you call it an expansion...70 bucks for an expansion...ouch. I can think of no other examples where a game company (and Im sure about 20 fanboys are about to prove me wrong ) releases an expansion that requires the original game and it costs as much. Given that you didn't pay the people who developed this for you...sounds like a money grab. Whatever, the price has pushed me on the fence. I am fairly certain one night in a frenzy of AAR readings I will purchase it, but I am squarely on the fence right now.

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Post #: 100
RE: AE's price - 7/11/2009 9:35:33 PM   
viberpol


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quote:

ORIGINAL: berto

At the risk of provoking controversy, here goes...

I suspect that, by forced bundling of AE with the original WitP, Matrix will lose many unit sales and quite possibly diminish their overall revenue.

By bundling both games, Matrix might be setting the price bar so high as to alienate

--casual gamers
--the curious, try-it-and-see-if-i-like-it crowd
--the free-time challenged
--the financially strapped
--game collectors
--other fence sitters (e.g., those poor sods who need their wife's permission before buying)

Just MHO.

Now, excuse me as I run for cover...



Well, no, not really, if the special, discounted price for WITP Mr. Erik mentions will be somehow close to 9,99 USD.
AFAIK there's no decision on the discount level?



< Message edited by viberpol -- 7/11/2009 9:36:12 PM >


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Post #: 101
RE: AE's price - 7/11/2009 9:57:38 PM   
AttuWatcher

 

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I think it goes back to the fact that continuing WiTP sales are minimal. (more a factor of business model than money grab) Because of that I don't foresee the discount being more than $10-20 doll hairs. But more of a discount would of course be welcome and directly increase the quantity of new players. 

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Post #: 102
RE: AE's price - 7/11/2009 10:28:51 PM   
rroberson

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: FAsea

I think it goes back to the fact that continuing WiTP sales are minimal. (more a factor of business model than money grab) Because of that I don't foresee the discount being more than $10-20 doll hairs. But more of a discount would of course be welcome and directly increase the quantity of new players. 



I think that is largely what has me annoyed. I'd like to bring new people to the WITP family...I call them victims :-). The fact is most of my wargaming buddies took a pass on vanilla because of the price point. Now we are doubling the price. Extremely frustrating.

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Post #: 103
RE: AE's price - 7/11/2009 10:29:57 PM   
scout1


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Well, if you compare games we have all purchased for $30, $40, $50, $60 that only stayed on our hard drives for a short time, compared to WitP, AE prices are NOT a bad deal by any means. If you run the $/hour, WitP and soon AE, will be by far the best deal that most of us have ever incurred ..... I understand the initial cost factor, but must look at the big picture ....

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Post #: 104
RE: AE's price - 7/11/2009 10:30:46 PM   
Terminus


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Not to be a hair splitter, but nobody's forcing you to pay $70; there's a $60 option.

I understand what you're saying, mind you... Just putting it out there.

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Post #: 105
RE: AE's price - 7/11/2009 11:28:11 PM   
Dili

 

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quote:

I'd have to disagree with that. WITP is an excellent game in its own right and has scenario content that is not in AE. Getting both for the same price instead of one would seem to me to be a benefit, rather than the other way around.


I understand and i exagerated trying to make a point for the initial AE, i still can make my point with AE standalone at price of a WITP. And while your point is true at start, the vast improved editing capabilities of AE will ensure that same or even more scenarios will appear. We just have to look at slots. Besides one will play a Guadalcanal scenario with air search sectors and ship patrol waypoints, corrections, or getting back to witp age?

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Post #: 106
RE: AE's price - 7/11/2009 11:42:35 PM   
Charles2222


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quote:

ORIGINAL: rroberson


quote:

ORIGINAL: FAsea

I think it goes back to the fact that continuing WiTP sales are minimal. (more a factor of business model than money grab) Because of that I don't foresee the discount being more than $10-20 doll hairs. But more of a discount would of course be welcome and directly increase the quantity of new players. 



I think that is largely what has me annoyed. I'd like to bring new people to the WITP family...I call them victims :-). The fact is most of my wargaming buddies took a pass on vanilla because of the price point. Now we are doubling the price. Extremely frustrating.

You can just see all those IJ PBEM players lining up, can't you?

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Post #: 107
RE: AE's price - 7/11/2009 11:51:57 PM   
GaryChildress

 

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This may be a little OT but will the AE team be getting any of the proceeds to the sales of AE? I just ask because I think they are a great bunch of people and deserve some sort of reward for a job well done on behalf of the WITP community. I hope they are getting something for all their dedicated work.

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Post #: 108
RE: AE's price - 7/11/2009 11:54:48 PM   
Erik Rutins

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: rroberson
If all this is true. Why do people have to own Vanilla to get AE? I think that's the thing that has me annoyed about the price. It would be one thing if it was a new off the shelf game, but requiring people to own Vanilla to run AE makes it a mod.


No, it's a way to make sure that we don't get folks jumping into AE and subsequently running for their lives. WITP is a stepping stone to AE, simple as that. It is also still a great game in its own right.

quote:

And even if you call it an expansion...70 bucks for an expansion...ouch. I can think of no other examples where a game company (and Im sure about 20 fanboys are about to prove me wrong ) releases an expansion that requires the original game and it costs as much. Given that you didn't pay the people who developed this for you...sounds like a money grab. Whatever, the price has pushed me on the fence. I am fairly certain one night in a frenzy of AAR readings I will purchase it, but I am squarely on the fence right now.


It's not an expansion. It's its own game. It installs as a stand-alone, but requires ownership of WITP. I realize this is not a "typical" arrangement and that may be causing some of this confusion. You're trying to find an analog in the normal mainstream marketing of games. WITP is not a mainstream game, this is not a typical situation and there is not an exact analog.

Wargaming is a niche, "monster" wargaming is an extreme niche and this is what it basically costs to continue development on these kinds of games, once every five years. That doesn't seem particularly steep to me when I look at how much development and research is involved. Frankly, if we had made AE stand-alone, then the price on its own would have been high enough that I could see people balking and that also would have been called unfair by many. It is what it is. We've set the price, each person has to decide if it's right for them, given what we've announced we are delivering for that price.

For people who already own WITP, you are really getting a full new game in terms of development effort when you purchase AE, but it works like WITP so your learning curve should be a bit easier than it would be for someone starting out fresh. For those who don't have either, WITP is a step on the way to AE, some may get there, some may not.

Regards,

- Erik

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Post #: 109
RE: AE's price - 7/11/2009 11:55:34 PM   
Erik Rutins

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Gary Childress
This may be a little OT but will the AE team be getting any of the proceeds to the sales of AE? I just ask because I think they are a great bunch of people and deserve some sort of reward for a job well done on behalf of the WITP community. I hope they are getting something for all their dedicated work.


We don't discuss royalty details publicly, but the AE team certainly deserves to be rewarded.


< Message edited by Erik Rutins -- 7/11/2009 11:56:00 PM >


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Post #: 110
RE: AE's price - 7/12/2009 12:00:20 AM   
rroberson

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: scout1

Well, if you compare games we have all purchased for $30, $40, $50, $60 that only stayed on our hard drives for a short time, compared to WitP, AE prices are NOT a bad deal by any means. If you run the $/hour, WitP and soon AE, will be by far the best deal that most of us have ever incurred ..... I understand the initial cost factor, but must look at the big picture ....



That works right up until the moment the wife sees the CC bill ;-). The point is, we are in a recession, I have had to cut way back on purchases of "me" products, I AM NOT ALONE IN THIS. I now have to be picky where I didn't have to even 3, 4 years ago. so yes, there is a big difference to me in a game that has last on my HD since its release that I dropped 70 bucks on (I actually dropped about 100 <dont ask> ) and a 30 dollar game I might get a few months out of...that sticker shock hurts.

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Post #: 111
RE: AE's price - 7/12/2009 12:01:52 AM   
rroberson

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Charles_22


quote:

ORIGINAL: rroberson


quote:

ORIGINAL: FAsea

I think it goes back to the fact that continuing WiTP sales are minimal. (more a factor of business model than money grab) Because of that I don't foresee the discount being more than $10-20 doll hairs. But more of a discount would of course be welcome and directly increase the quantity of new players. 



I think that is largely what has me annoyed. I'd like to bring new people to the WITP family...I call them victims :-). The fact is most of my wargaming buddies took a pass on vanilla because of the price point. Now we are doubling the price. Extremely frustrating.

You can just see all those IJ PBEM players lining up, can't you?


Ha! I always get stuck as the japanese...a lot of onliners fear playing that side

_____________________________


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Post #: 112
RE: AE's price - 7/12/2009 12:06:33 AM   
rroberson

 

Posts: 2050
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From: Arizona
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Erik Rutins


quote:

ORIGINAL: rroberson
If all this is true. Why do people have to own Vanilla to get AE? I think that's the thing that has me annoyed about the price. It would be one thing if it was a new off the shelf game, but requiring people to own Vanilla to run AE makes it a mod.


No, it's a way to make sure that we don't get folks jumping into AE and subsequently running for their lives. WITP is a stepping stone to AE, simple as that. It is also still a great game in its own right.

quote:

And even if you call it an expansion...70 bucks for an expansion...ouch. I can think of no other examples where a game company (and Im sure about 20 fanboys are about to prove me wrong ) releases an expansion that requires the original game and it costs as much. Given that you didn't pay the people who developed this for you...sounds like a money grab. Whatever, the price has pushed me on the fence. I am fairly certain one night in a frenzy of AAR readings I will purchase it, but I am squarely on the fence right now.


It's not an expansion. It's its own game. It installs as a stand-alone, but requires ownership of WITP. I realize this is not a "typical" arrangement and that may be causing some of this confusion. You're trying to find an analog in the normal mainstream marketing of games. WITP is not a mainstream game, this is not a typical situation and there is not an exact analog.

Wargaming is a niche, "monster" wargaming is an extreme niche and this is what it basically costs to continue development on these kinds of games, once every five years. That doesn't seem particularly steep to me when I look at how much development and research is involved. Frankly, if we had made AE stand-alone, then the price on its own would have been high enough that I could see people balking and that also would have been called unfair by many. It is what it is. We've set the price, each person has to decide if it's right for them, given what we've announced we are delivering for that price.

For people who already own WITP, you are really getting a full new game in terms of development effort when you purchase AE, but it works like WITP so your learning curve should be a bit easier than it would be for someone starting out fresh. For those who don't have either, WITP is a step on the way to AE, some may get there, some may not.

Regards,

- Erik



I know you won't go into this here, private company data and all that. But what exactly did it cost you to develop AE? Your work force was a group of volunteers. Sure, the disk printing, box, and printed rules cost a bit, but for a digital download I don't see a lot of development costs. Again, I have no idea...it is why I am asking.

As far as AE, I have been twisting the arms of more then one of my friends trying to get them to take the plunge, they all like the game but the price point keeps them away...thus my frustration with the price.

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Post #: 113
RE: AE's price - 7/12/2009 12:08:37 AM   
Erik Rutins

 

Posts: 37193
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From: Vermont, USA
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quote:

ORIGINAL: rroberson
That works right up until the moment the wife sees the CC bill ;-). The point is, we are in a recession, I have had to cut way back on purchases of "me" products, I AM NOT ALONE IN THIS. I now have to be picky where I didn't have to even 3, 4 years ago. so yes, there is a big difference to me in a game that has last on my HD since its release that I dropped 70 bucks on (I actually dropped about 100 <dont ask> ) and a 30 dollar game I might get a few months out of...that sticker shock hurts.


I can only say that in my opinion if you really enjoy WITP, you'll enjoy AE. We're very aware of the economy and it has affected everyone. We would not release AE unless we felt that it was going to make owners of WITP happy and we priced it as low as we could given the effort that went into it. You guys are a very important part of our customer base and this release is intended to give you an even better WITP and to keep your loyalty for years to come.

Regards,

- Erik


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Post #: 114
RE: AE's price - 7/12/2009 12:10:40 AM   
Erik Rutins

 

Posts: 37193
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quote:

ORIGINAL: rroberson
I know you won't go into this here, private company data and all that. But what exactly did it cost you to develop AE? Your work force was a group of volunteers. Sure, the disk printing, box, and printed rules cost a bit, but for a digital download I don't see a lot of development costs. Again, I have no idea...it is why I am asking.


I can't discuss that, sorry. Wish I could go into detail, but I can only say that supporting AE will also support continued development of these kinds of games here at Matrix.

I understand your frustration as far as your friends go, I think if they don't take the plunge now, you should have an easier time after release once everyone has had a chance to give it a spin. Showing it to them in person may also help bring them around.


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CEO, Matrix Games LLC




For official support, please use our Help Desk: http://www.matrixgames.com/helpdesk/

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Post #: 115
RE: AE's price - 7/12/2009 12:14:41 AM   
GaryChildress

 

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If reward is in the cards for the AE team that will certainly increase the cost of AE for Matrix and I have NO problem with paying the extra in price for it. They've worked long and hard and deserve a happy ending to all their efforts. I'm not rich by any means but I will give credit where credit is due. Yipee!! Hurray for the AE team!

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Post #: 116
RE: AE's price - 7/12/2009 12:20:34 AM   
rroberson

 

Posts: 2050
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From: Arizona
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Erik Rutins


quote:

ORIGINAL: rroberson
I know you won't go into this here, private company data and all that. But what exactly did it cost you to develop AE? Your work force was a group of volunteers. Sure, the disk printing, box, and printed rules cost a bit, but for a digital download I don't see a lot of development costs. Again, I have no idea...it is why I am asking.


I can't discuss that, sorry. Wish I could go into detail, but I can only say that supporting AE will also support continued development of these kinds of games here at Matrix.

I understand your frustration as far as your friends go, I think if they don't take the plunge now, you should have an easier time after release once everyone has had a chance to give it a spin. Showing it to them in person may also help bring them around.




Understood.

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Post #: 117
RE: AE's price - 7/12/2009 12:22:57 AM   
Charles2222


Posts: 3993
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quote:

ORIGINAL: rroberson


quote:

ORIGINAL: Charles_22


quote:

ORIGINAL: rroberson


quote:

ORIGINAL: FAsea

I think it goes back to the fact that continuing WiTP sales are minimal. (more a factor of business model than money grab) Because of that I don't foresee the discount being more than $10-20 doll hairs. But more of a discount would of course be welcome and directly increase the quantity of new players. 



I think that is largely what has me annoyed. I'd like to bring new people to the WITP family...I call them victims :-). The fact is most of my wargaming buddies took a pass on vanilla because of the price point. Now we are doubling the price. Extremely frustrating.

You can just see all those IJ PBEM players lining up, can't you?


Ha! I always get stuck as the japanese...a lot of onliners fear playing that side

If they don't convince you to buy the exorbitant price of what is called a new game, but is really an expansion that requires purchase of the original (as any expansion would) they will have one less IJ player in your person. I like the excuse that you have to buck the thing up to WITP because people are too timid to handle AE all on it's own. I managed just fine with WITP, and didn't need a scrap of UV, though I'm sure the throng was quite strong for how much easier it would be to learn WITP by buying it. There's just so many stupid people out there that just need prior versions of games in order to have a chance of understanding the newer versions, don't you think? Pretty good sales pitch anyway.

(in reply to rroberson)
Post #: 118
RE: AE's price - 7/12/2009 1:24:22 AM   
Lesbaker


Posts: 170
Joined: 3/6/2007
From: Southampton, UK
Status: offline
Sheesh, all this soul searching over the price of what I am sure will be an excellent game; confounds me, I could understand it if the game was on offer in some Morrocan bassar where haggling is the norm, however this game is being offered for sale in the capitalist west and as such it is the norm that the company suppying the merchandise sets the price, and you decide whether to pay it or not. I'm fairly sure that most of the people that frequent this forum really couldn't careless whether you buy it or not.

(in reply to Charles2222)
Post #: 119
RE: AE's price - 7/12/2009 1:28:56 AM   
keeferon01


Posts: 334
Joined: 6/18/2005
From: North Carolina
Status: offline
all this talk of price is mind boggling really, the way I look a it, you get a lifetime guarantee
with matrix products , WITP after 5 years is still being supported , You have to buy something
special to get support like that really, ok heading back to my rock now.

_____________________________


(in reply to Charles2222)
Post #: 120
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