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1914 German error and history

 
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1914 German error and history - 6/15/2009 6:40:10 AM   
Fred98


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In 1914 a Serb murdered the Arch duke of Austro-Hungary.

The Serbs were happy about this and the Austr-Hungarian army moved against Serbia.

Russia, friends with Serbia, moved its forces against Austro-Hungary to assist Serbia.

Germany, friends with Austro-Hungary, moved it’s forces against Russia to assist Austro-Hungary.

England and France, friends with Russia, moved its forces against Germany to assist Russia.

Then the Germans made a mistake.

They could have sat on their western border in a defensive position but they did not.

Belgium was neutral and did not move any troops to assist anybody.

The Germans attacked through Belgium, into France and almost reached Paris.

The Germans were fired upon by Belgian civilians and the Germans murdered civilians in reprisal.

History records that Germany started the war.

If Germany had instead, defended its Western border, history would have a different opinion of Germany.

Discuss.


















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RE: 1914 German error and history - 6/15/2009 12:10:25 PM   
Chijohnaok2


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German military strategy at this time was based on the Schlieffen Plan .

Germany's plan to avoid a two-front war was to concentrate their troops in the west, quickly defeat the French and then rush those troops by rail to the east to face the Russians before they had time to mobilize fully.

Had they simply sat pat on the Western Front, and deployed most of their forces against Russia in the east, they still would have had the threat of France & England in the West.

There is a quote often attributed to Winston Churchill which states: : “History is written by the victors.”

The Allied forces would likely have still won the war had Germany remained on the defensive on the Western Front, but Germany still may have been blamed for the war in general.

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RE: 1914 German error and history - 6/15/2009 1:43:47 PM   
EUBanana


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quote:

ORIGINAL: chijohnaok
There is a quote often attributed to Winston Churchill which states: : “History is written by the victors.”


There's another one from Churchill that states, "History shall be kind to me for I intend to write it."

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RE: 1914 German error and history - 6/15/2009 3:01:35 PM   
sol_invictus


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Originally the Germans intended to go East first; the Molke the Elder Plan; but after the Russo-Japanese War showed that Russia was weaker than feared the new German thinking was that Germany could score a decisive win against France before Russia could mobilize her ponderous forces and do much damage in the East. There was also the fear that if Germany went East first that Russia would simply conduct a fighting withdrawl like they have a tendency to do and draw German forces deep within Russia while still leaving an intact French army in the West. Of course this strategy would have almost certainly precluded Britain joining in the war; at least in the early months; so in hindsight I think attempting to knock Russia out first would probably have been the better strategy. Germany was simply convinced that they could quickly knock France out of the war before Russia or Britain became an issue. Things always seem so clear after the fact.

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RE: 1914 German error and history - 6/15/2009 3:08:19 PM   
JudgeDredd


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Personally, I think the best strategy for the Germans was to say "Look, Austria, I know we signed a pact with you...but ffs...you're going to kick this whole war thing off...so on that basis, if you want to, then fine, but count us out"

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RE: 1914 German error and history - 6/15/2009 4:36:47 PM   
anarchyintheuk

 

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The "history is written by the victors" quote may have been valid back during wars of extermination (e.g. Rome v. Carthage) but not now. Plenty of history written by losers and disaffected victors. I sort of hate that quote now.

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RE: 1914 German error and history - 6/15/2009 5:16:54 PM   
sapper_astro

 

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I believe Austria started the war. The heavy handed approach they made against Serbia was quite stupid and done without any rational thought. They should have hunted down the groups responsible and attempted to work with the Serbian government in stopping the attacks of the Black Hand terror/liberation group (depending on your leanings).

The Serbian Gov were not entirely happy with this group itself, and were actually willing to submit to a number of the demands that the Austrians made. Austria did not want satisfaction though, they wanted war, so the demands were made in the hope that Serbia would flatly refuse.

Ultimately, Germany could have laid a restraining hand on Austria. France could have tried to persuade the Czar to also come to a conference table with the opposition heads. It is all a moot point; virtually every country was yearning for the showdown anyway.

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RE: 1914 German error and history - 6/15/2009 6:36:06 PM   
SireChaos

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: JudgeDredd

Personally, I think the best strategy for the Germans was to say "Look, Austria, I know we signed a pact with you...but ffs...you're going to kick this whole war thing off...so on that basis, if you want to, then fine, but count us out"


Not with Emperor Billy the Second in command. That moron was spoiling for a fight.

Heck, pretty much all of Germany was spoiling for a fight. My compassion for them is strictly limited.

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RE: 1914 German error and history - 6/15/2009 7:09:23 PM   
Chijohnaok2


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quote:

ORIGINAL: SireChaos


quote:

ORIGINAL: JudgeDredd

Personally, I think the best strategy for the Germans was to say "Look, Austria, I know we signed a pact with you...but ffs...you're going to kick this whole war thing off...so on that basis, if you want to, then fine, but count us out"


Not with Emperor Billy the Second in command. That moron was spoiling for a fight.

Heck, pretty much all of Germany was spoiling for a fight. My compassion for them is strictly limited.


I can't locate my copy of the Guns of August, however, my recollection of Tuchman's analysis is that the leaders of many of the major players were itching for a fight. Most thought that the such a war would be over within a matter of weeks, no later than the end of 1914 at the very latest.

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RE: 1914 German error and history - 6/15/2009 8:39:18 PM   
bobogoboom


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Joe 98

In 1914 a Serb murdered the Arch duke of Austro-Hungary.

The Serbs were happy about this and the Austr-Hungarian army moved against Serbia.

Russia, friends with Serbia, moved its forces against Austro-Hungary to assist Serbia.

Germany, friends with Austro-Hungary, moved it’s forces against Russia to assist Austro-Hungary.

England and France, friends with Russia, moved its forces against Germany to assist Russia.

Then the Germans made a mistake.

They could have sat on their western border in a defensive position but they did not.

Belgium was neutral and did not move any troops to assist anybody.

The Germans attacked through Belgium, into France and almost reached Paris.

The Germans were fired upon by Belgian civilians and the Germans murdered civilians in reprisal.

History records that Germany started the war.

If Germany had instead, defended its Western border, history would have a different opinion of Germany.

Discuss.



2 things britian was not involved in the war till germany attacked belgium. and germay gave the austrians a blank check to do whatever they wanted to with serbia. had the germans rained in their austrian allies there never would have been a war.


















< Message edited by bobogoboom -- 6/15/2009 8:45:32 PM >


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RE: 1914 German error and history - 6/15/2009 8:46:52 PM   
bobogoboom


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quote:

ORIGINAL: sapper_astro

I believe Austria started the war. The heavy handed approach they made against Serbia was quite stupid and done without any rational thought. They should have hunted down the groups responsible and attempted to work with the Serbian government in stopping the attacks of the Black Hand terror/liberation group (depending on your leanings).

The Serbian Gov were not entirely happy with this group itself, and were actually willing to submit to a number of the demands that the Austrians made. Austria did not want satisfaction though, they wanted war, so the demands were made in the hope that Serbia would flatly refuse.

Ultimately, Germany could have laid a restraining hand on Austria. France could have tried to persuade the Czar to also come to a conference table with the opposition heads. It is all a moot point; virtually every country was yearning for the showdown anyway.

I agree with almost everything in your post except your second statement is a joke. the whole problem was that there were element in the serbian govenrment who were backing these people furthermore the serbians wanted to take that area from austria. it's a joke to think that the serbians would have worked with the austrians to bring them to justice. the whole reason that franz ferdiana was such a threat is that he wanted to give the slavs an equal say in the government.


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RE: 1914 German error and history - 6/15/2009 10:23:41 PM   
SireChaos

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: chijohnaok


quote:

ORIGINAL: SireChaos


quote:

ORIGINAL: JudgeDredd

Personally, I think the best strategy for the Germans was to say "Look, Austria, I know we signed a pact with you...but ffs...you're going to kick this whole war thing off...so on that basis, if you want to, then fine, but count us out"


Not with Emperor Billy the Second in command. That moron was spoiling for a fight.

Heck, pretty much all of Germany was spoiling for a fight. My compassion for them is strictly limited.


I can't locate my copy of the Guns of August, however, my recollection of Tuchman's analysis is that the leaders of many of the major players were itching for a fight. Most thought that the such a war would be over within a matter of weeks, no later than the end of 1914 at the very latest.


Sure, but without Billy the Megalomaniac Buffoon none of that would have mattered.

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RE: 1914 German error and history - 6/15/2009 11:42:17 PM   
Qwixt


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When I was in the military, and in Germany around 1985, I took a college course setup by the Army on "U.S. History: Civil War to Present" that was taught by a German. When we got to WWI, the class learned all the ways that Germany could and should have won the war. When we got WWII, the teacher said that we don't have enough time to cover it.

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RE: 1914 German error and history - 6/16/2009 12:12:13 AM   
bobogoboom


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Qwixt

When I was in the military, and in Germany around 1985, I took a college course setup by the Army on "U.S. History: Civil War to Present" that was taught by a German. When we got to WWI, the class learned all the ways that Germany could and should have won the war. When we got WWII, the teacher said that we don't have enough time to cover it.


germany was light years closer to winning ww1 than it was to winning ww2(which they never had a chance at).

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RE: 1914 German error and history - 6/16/2009 3:22:06 AM   
ckammp

 

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< Message edited by ckammp -- 11/1/2009 2:18:28 AM >

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RE: 1914 German error and history - 6/16/2009 3:27:28 AM   
sapper_astro

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: bobogoboom

quote:

ORIGINAL: sapper_astro

I believe Austria started the war. The heavy handed approach they made against Serbia was quite stupid and done without any rational thought. They should have hunted down the groups responsible and attempted to work with the Serbian government in stopping the attacks of the Black Hand terror/liberation group (depending on your leanings).

The Serbian Gov were not entirely happy with this group itself, and were actually willing to submit to a number of the demands that the Austrians made. Austria did not want satisfaction though, they wanted war, so the demands were made in the hope that Serbia would flatly refuse.

Ultimately, Germany could have laid a restraining hand on Austria. France could have tried to persuade the Czar to also come to a conference table with the opposition heads. It is all a moot point; virtually every country was yearning for the showdown anyway.

I agree with almost everything in your post except your second statement is a joke. the whole problem was that there were element in the serbian govenrment who were backing these people furthermore the serbians wanted to take that area from austria. it's a joke to think that the serbians would have worked with the austrians to bring them to justice. the whole reason that franz ferdiana was such a threat is that he wanted to give the slavs an equal say in the government.



Yes, there was indeed an element. The government could have been pressured into dealing with this "element". At the time, the Serbian Gov was crapping their pants at the thought of Austria moving in for the kill. It was unknown if Russia would actually help, nor that they could hold off the initial Austrian offensive. Most people expected a trampling in the first few weeks.

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RE: 1914 German error and history - 6/16/2009 4:41:39 AM   
SS Hauptsturmfuhrer


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The assassination is hardly even worth talking about because the European countries all wanted a war at the time and were just waiting for an excuse to get stuck in a fray.  A big war was wanted and a big war was had.  Germany had had peace for 40 years and were due for a fight.  England had fired a few shots here and there over the years but were joyful to have another war to break the sheer boredom of peace.  The politics behind it all were childishly scrappy compared to the massively anti-war, politically correct mood we have now.

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