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Sell me the game! - 5/28/2009 12:53:50 PM   
sapper_astro

 

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Yes, it has happened; The time where you only have funds for one game, and there are several that you want, as usual...

This time, I seriously cannot make up my mind on a number of them. So I will list them, and add in the reason I have not purchased them yet, though I really love most of what I hear/learned about each one. Let me know how/why I am wrong, and tell me which game you would buy out of these games. I am totally stumped at the moment.

1: Guns of August: Apparently the UI is bad, and the manual even worse.

2: WW2 road to victory: Apparently a new game is coming "soon". How soon, and how it will be is in question, along with what improvements will be made.

3: Commander Napoleon at War: Some people have said it is grossly unhistoric.

4: Commander WW2: This is vying with WW2 RtV at the moment.

5: Carriers at war: Loved the old versions and still play them, and people have said this is basically the same game with some better graphics, but far less scenarios/less user friendly scenario builder.

6: Battlefront: heard that the game is basically forgotten and no more scenarios are being made.

7: Kharkov Disaster on the Donetz: Again, the lack of scenarios apparently hurts it.

So there you have it. These are the titles that are currently in my sights.

Edit: See my post below for more information.
I am also thinking on the American Civil War games available, but cannot decide on one.

< Message edited by sapper_astro -- 5/28/2009 5:13:24 PM >
Post #: 1
RE: Sell me the game! - 5/28/2009 1:19:06 PM   
Sarge


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I know its not on your list , but recommend holding out for the WIF release

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RE: Sell me the game! - 5/28/2009 1:23:28 PM   
JudgeDredd


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1. Yes to both...apparently a great game and I did like the feel of it, but the UI beat me I'm afraid
2. Not my cup of tea. I've had enough of strategic action - the AI simply can't cope. I played it for a few days and never went back. I think I gave it away.
3. Loved No4 initially but went off it quite quickly when I found some deficincies - so I never visited this as it was based on the same engine. I also didn't like the fact it was written (I believe) in Java and the refresh issues I had running it
4. See above
5. Great concept poorly implemented in my book. There should've been a lot more game there. The tactical element simply wasn't there and I found in the end there was very little to keep you occupied.
6. Don't know about it, but I have heard also that it's been "dropped"
7. Great game.

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RE: Sell me the game! - 5/28/2009 1:43:21 PM   
Lützow


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As told in the other thread: if you're going for an entry-level game, have a look for Advanced Tactics as well. Regarding grand strategy I'd rather recommend HoI 2, which should sell for around $10 and offers by far more depth than the poorly conceived Commander series. Since you mentioned Kharkov, I'd also point toward 'Battles in Normandy' demo. This gives you a glance about the SSG engine, even it's an older spin-off for sure.

Or you could reconsider and wait for WiF, which is due in july.

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RE: Sell me the game! - 5/28/2009 2:28:23 PM   
Erik Rutins

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: sapper_astro
1: Guns of August: Apparently the UI is bad, and the manual even worse.


The UI isn't great, but it's not an issue of complexity or bugs, just that it takes getting used to it. The manual was revised after release and from what I've read the revised manual was better received. There are a lot of folks that really love this game as far as WWI grand strategy and a lot of advice on strategy and gameplay has been written by players since release. Frank is also still updating this in his spare time.

quote:

2: WW2 road to victory: Apparently a new game is coming "soon". How soon, and how it will be is in question, along with what improvements will be made.


Yes, a new game is in the works. At this point I'd advise waiting for it, it has a lot of improvements.

quote:

3: Commander Napoleon at War: Some people have said it is grossly unhistoric.


It abstracts the operational layer onto the grand strategy scale. Some players can deal with this conceptually, others can't. I get it, so it doesn't bother me and it's definitely a fun game. However, if you're looking for realism in Napoleonic Grand Strategy, look at Crown of Glory: Emperor's Edition. This is basically a Napoleonic 'Panzer General' in terms of complexity and realism. Fun game, just right for many folks who don't want complexity, not a simulation.

quote:

4: Commander WW2: This is vying with WW2 RtV at the moment.


Great game IMHO, much updated since release too (the early performance and AI issues have been resolved as far as I can see, with the exception that the AI still doesn't do much in North Africa).

quote:

5: Carriers at war: Loved the old versions and still play them, and people have said this is basically the same game with some better graphics, but far less scenarios/less user friendly scenario builder.


I think the scenario builder is great actually and more user-friendly than the original. Note that it was updated (with a scenario creation tutorial added) in a post-release update as well. The scenarios that come with it are certainly less than the ultimate collection that was built up over years with the original. However, for a quick 30-45 minute carrier battle, you really can't beat this one. It's a great seller and has a strong following. IMHO it's better in all respects than the original except in terms of scenario content. I expect more scenarios to be released in time.

quote:

6: Battlefront: heard that the game is basically forgotten and no more scenarios are being made.


Well, it was released and supported and a number of scenarios were added to it as well (see here:
http://www.ssg.com.au/?page=scenario ). However, it's been superceded system-wise by Kharkov: Disaster on the Donets. It's a single release wargame like many others, rather than an ongoing series. If you like the scale and the scenarios, it's a very good wargame.

quote:

7: Kharkov Disaster on the Donetz: Again, the lack of scenarios apparently hurts it.


See this link: http://www.ssg.com.au/?page=scenarios - any new scenarios should be posted there. I have high hopes for Kharkov and its system. I think the campaign/scenario that comes with it is one of the most fun and interesting that SSG has done, but there's no question that more scenarios would be welcome. The editor with this is fully documented and updated as well, so I expect we'll see more scenarios for the Kharkov engine in the future (in addition to the ones SSG is already working on, like AtD).

Regards,

- Erik


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Post #: 5
RE: Sell me the game! - 5/28/2009 3:06:37 PM   
killroyishere

 

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Instead of saying which one is best of the lot I'm going to recommend what I think it best in its place. It just appears except for the last one that you have picked every meh game Matrixgames has published imho.


quote:

ORIGINAL: sapper_astro

Yes, it has happened; The time where you only have funds for one game, and there are several that you want, as usual...

This time, I seriously cannot make up my mind on a number of them. So I will list them, and add in the reason I have not purchased them yet, though I really love most of what I hear/learned about each one. Let me know how/why I am wrong, and tell me which game you would buy out of these games. I am totally stumped at the moment.

quote:

1: Guns of August: Apparently the UI is bad, and the manual even worse.


Here I would recommend finding a little gem called "Ancient Art of War in the Skies", this was one of my favorite WWI games and is quite simple to play but damn hard to master that trench line.

quote:

2: WW2 road to victory: Apparently a new game is coming "soon". How soon, and how it will be is in question, along with what improvements will be made.


Here I would recommend "Making History:The Calm and the Storm", it's turn based HOI actualy and the ai is a damn sight better.

quote:

3: Commander Napoleon at War: Some people have said it is grossly unhistoric.


I'm going to agree with Eric on this one "Crown of Glory" EE edition is probably the best grand scale strategic & tactical scale game around and well worth the money

quote:

4: Commander WW2: This is vying with WW2 RtV at the moment.


This is truely a light version or wannabe Panzer General, but, imho "Strategic Command 2 + Warfare expansion and SC2 Pacific War are the better choice for your money. A lot more game in them and the ai once again is better.

quote:

5: Carriers at war: Loved the old versions and still play them, and people have said this is basically the same game with some better graphics, but far less scenarios/less user friendly scenario builder.


Check out some of the naval games from NWSonline.com I'm not a big shipman but I've read they put out some great naval strategy games.

quote:

6: Battlefront: heard that the game is basically forgotten and no more scenarios are being made.


Why you would want this game is beyond me when "Steel Panthers Generals Edition" would give you so much more and a lot more enjoyment.

quote:

7: Kharkov Disaster on the Donetz: Again, the lack of scenarios apparently hurts it.


This is the only one I might recommend, as well as "Battles in Italy" and "Battles in Normandy" lots of player mad scenarios for this series.

So there you have it. These are the titles that are currently in my sights.


Good luck in your choice.

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RE: Sell me the game! - 5/28/2009 3:34:35 PM   
Erik Rutins

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: killroyishere
Here I would recommend finding a little gem called "Ancient Art of War in the Skies", this was one of my favorite WWI games and is quite simple to play but damn hard to master that trench line.


I recall that being a fun game, but how old is that now, does it still work on modern systems? And does that have anything to do with WWI grand strategy?

quote:

Here I would recommend "Making History:The Calm and the Storm", it's turn based HOI actualy and the ai is a damn sight better.

This is truely a light version or wannabe Panzer General, but, imho "Strategic Command 2 + Warfare expansion and SC2 Pacific War are the better choice for your money. A lot more game in them and the ai once again is better.


Those are both good recommendations, though when it comes to WW2 Grand Strategy I also have to strongly recommend Gary Grigsby's A World Divided. Covers the whole world and IMHO has great gameplay, good AI and a realistic feel without being too complex.

quote:

Check out some of the naval games from NWSonline.com I'm not a big shipman but I've read they put out some great naval strategy games.


They do, though most of these are battle simulators IIRC rather than campaign scenarios. I think their newest release has a campaign aspect, but is also still being worked on. The reason CAW was re-done is that it was such a fan favorite and still is. It really packs a lot of wargaming into a short time.

quote:

Why you would want this game is beyond me when "Steel Panthers Generals Edition" would give you so much more and a lot more enjoyment.


Sorry to nitpick, but Battlefront and SPWAW: General's Edition are completely different games. SPWAW: General's Edition is fantastic and has arguably the best campaign system of any tactical game, but it's a tactical scale game whereas Battlefront deals in operational warfare. In SPWAW you're controlling individual tanks, in Battlefront you're controlling battalions. I assumed the original poster was interested in these games for their scale and subject matter.

Regards,

- Erik

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RE: Sell me the game! - 5/28/2009 4:54:27 PM   
sapper_astro

 

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I am reading through the suggestions, so I will add in the main wargames I own and play, along with a couple of "sure buys" that I have already hidden money away for.

Games to be bought:

Battles for the Bulge - Panther. This will be an auto buy without any need for checks.

World in Flames - ADG. After an initial waiting period to make sure the AI is at least average, I should be buying this.


Wargames I own that I play regularly since I have bought them:

Conquest of the Aegean. I don't need to go into detail here. Brilliant game and system.

All close combat games. Always loved Close Combat.

Both Panzer Commander games. These dove tail in with Combat mission.

Combat Mission games. See above. I have a love of the Tactical combat/Squad Leader type battles as you can see .

Birth of America 1. This one took me by surprise. A nice, elegant system. Pity about the WW1 game they made. Perhaps one of their other games is good..?

Battles in Italy. A truly excellent oldschool game, with quite a few user scenarios. I take it Kharkov is much improved over this one?

Carriers at war (not the real C64 original, of which I still have my A4 sized copy here but the early 90's version. I have CAW1+2 plus the construction kit and many other scenarios).

Original Battlefront system games on emulator. Yes, I still play them. along with...

War in Russia, the Great war in the East. GG's Russia game killed my brain, so I play this old slugger now and again on my C64 emulator. It isn't the most accurate game, but something about it keeps me plugging away with it.

Old Panzer General games. Yep, I still play them. 1, AG, PacG, PG2, and Scorched Earth. Hell, I even still play Fantasy General

Tiller's Campaign series (West Front, EF2, etc). Currently still trying to win with the French. I play my originals after going through hell to get them working on an XP series.

I enjoy all of the above immensely. This still leaves a few holes though. A grand strategy game for a)WW2 (this may be filled by WIF) b)A Napoleonic game c)an American Civil War game and d)a WW1 game.

It looks like the recommendations are swinging towards Kharkov at the moment, though hopefully I will get more suggestions and feedback based on what I have added here.

< Message edited by sapper_astro -- 5/28/2009 4:59:27 PM >

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RE: Sell me the game! - 5/28/2009 5:00:30 PM   
Erik Rutins

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: sapper_astro
I enjoy all of the above immensely. This still leaves a few holes though. A grand strategy game for a)WW2 (this may be filled by WIF) b)A Napoleonic game c)an American Civil War game and d)a WW1 game.


For a) you could really do worse than Gary Grigsby's A World Divided. I think it strikes a good balance between ease of play and realism. With that said, the other recommendations (CEAW, MH, SC2, WW2) are also good ones.

For b) given your existing tastes I would go with Crown of Glory: Emperor's Edition. Start with the Simple Economy.

For c) that's a really tough choice. Do you want tactical or grand strategy? The John Tiller's Civil War collection can't be beat for bang for the buck tactically. Grand strategy wise is where I get in trouble, because there are three current ACW grand strategy games and all are outstanding. Gary Grigsby's War Between the States, AGEOD's American Civil War and Forge of Freedom. WBTS is the quickest to play, AACW the slowest, FOF is in between. Scale wise it's the same, AACW is an operational scale extended across the entire war, FOF is grand strategy with lots of extra "bling" including tactical combat and WBTS is probably the most "pure" grand strategy game. I seriously think any ACW buff needs all three, there have never been better ACW computer games than right now IMHO.


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RE: Sell me the game! - 5/28/2009 5:09:31 PM   
sapper_astro

 

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Hey Erik,

I will think about the first two recommendations you have given. Only problem is that I own the originals GG's WaW is still a game I have a dash with every pancake day. CoG I really wanted to like, but you hit the nail on the head: the economy. It seriously made me tear my hair out, though I enjoyed the battles and various other little missions you could send your diplomats on, etc.

As for the ACW game, that is the problem. I have tried sifting through them and gave up. Hopefully my tastes will help someone here identify which of them might fit.

Edit: The WW2 Grand strategy game I am looking for at the moment is something that fits the "Boardgame" feel of TSR's ETO/PTO, Totaler Krieg, WiF...Guess I should just hold off until WiF, though I hope it will be fully "cooked" by that time.

< Message edited by sapper_astro -- 5/28/2009 5:18:14 PM >

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RE: Sell me the game! - 5/28/2009 5:16:30 PM   
Erik Rutins

 

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Sapper,

quote:

ORIGINAL: sapper_astro
I will think about the first two recommendations you have given. Only problem is that I own the originals GG's WaW is still a game I have a dash with every pancake day. CoG I really wanted to like, but you hit the nail on the head: the economy. It seriously made me tear my hair out, though I enjoyed the battles and various other little missions you could send your diplomats on, etc.


Ah, too bad you didn't upgrade to AWD while that discount was running. I consider AWD a huge improvement over WAW personally, I would always play that instead of the original if given the choice.

COG:EE is IMHO night and day compared to original COG especially for people who had trouble with the economy, but it's improved in many, many, many areas. The new simple economy basically just gets the economy out of the player's way. For those who want to deal with the advanced economy, it's also very well explained now and there's an additional separate guide just release on that by Bryan Morgan. Detailed battles, improvements and experience, naval combat, it's all much improved.

Ok, I really need to stop being a salesman (but look at your thread title, you asked for it )

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RE: Sell me the game! - 5/28/2009 5:22:29 PM   
sapper_astro

 

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Please continue. If you really feel one of the games would not fit my tastes, just don't mention it.


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RE: Sell me the game! - 5/28/2009 5:33:10 PM   
Arsan

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: sapper_astro


As for the ACW game, that is the problem. I have tried sifting through them and gave up. Hopefully my tastes will help someone here identify which of them might fit.


Hi!
AGEOD ACW game is based on the same elegant BoA engine which you seem to like.
But its much improved and with quite a lot of new mechanics, details and possibilities. So its also more complex than BoA.
Its a great game and his support is extraordinary. Two years after release its still receiving regular patches than add new content and historical tweaks in addition to bug fixes. The new 1.14 patch should be released pretty soon.
And it have a very active community on the official AGEOD forums
http://www.ageod.com/forums/index.php
Even if not updated, the AACW demo should give you a good idea of how it plays.
You can get it here
http://www.ageod.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=115
Regards

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RE: Sell me the game! - 5/28/2009 5:39:59 PM   
JudgeDredd


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Regarding the ACW games, I can't say anything for AGEoDs AACW as I have it but never played it (on my wish list). However, GG War between the States and Forge of Freedom are probably two of the best games I own. I wouldn't part with either.

Forge of Freedom will take you a while to complete a campaign, even with Quick Battles (no detailed battles). GG WbtS you could play in a few hours. They really are both excellent games imo.

They are different beasts on the same war and both are excellent choices. I'd recommend both but then that's because I enjoy them...clearly your tastes may differ.

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RE: Sell me the game! - 5/28/2009 5:40:18 PM   
E

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: sapper_astro

Carriers at war (not the real C64 original, of which I still have my A4 sized copy here but the early 90's version. I have CAW1+2 plus the construction kit and many other scenarios).



C64 was the port (stock #202)... the the real original was for the Apple II (Stock #101).

One thing that is brought up often is the lack of scenarios for the current CAW. It actually has more than the original game! ...





Attachment (1)

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RE: Sell me the game! - 5/28/2009 5:49:28 PM   
Obsolete


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Did someone mention they still played Fantasy General?  I have to confess, for some reason I never did touch this one.  However I decided to take a look now, and will probably grab the abandonware copy.  Hopefully things work out well with DosBox.

The GUI looks a LOT like PG1, but since it's SSI, 1996 that is no surprise...




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RE: Sell me the game! - 5/28/2009 5:57:38 PM   
sapper_astro

 

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The model T didn't have many competitors E...Guess I grew used to my stack of scenarios and kept hearing how difficult it is to make new ones. If you have any news on this, let me know. It would be handy to hear whether SSG is going to make any additions to the CAW franchise this time as well. As for the Apple 2 version...we C64er's got our revenge. Saving money on the system, not mention when more colours were introduced into games yes, we got our revenge.

Thanks for the ACW info guys, unfortunately you have confused the subject more for me; They sound like they all have excellent qualities. I will have to agonise over it more. From no new ACW games, then suddenly there are three....and all of them with lunatics swearing that each one is the best. Ah well, better to have this conundrum than no good games at all!

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RE: Sell me the game! - 5/28/2009 5:59:31 PM   
sapper_astro

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Obsolete

Did someone mention they still played Fantasy General?  I have to confess, for some reason I never did touch this one.  However I decided to take a look now, and will probably grab the abandonware copy.  Hopefully things work out well with DosBox.

The GUI looks a LOT like PG1, but since it's SSI, 1996 that is no surprise...





Panzer General in Fantasy drag and even a few extras, like research, different paths through the game, etc. It is a great game, you will love it if you loved the PG games. While you have magic and all that jazz, most of the mechanics are quite similar.

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Post #: 18
RE: Sell me the game! - 5/28/2009 6:09:59 PM   
Lützow


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Some more recommendations:

Steel Panthers as complement for JTCS. There are versions from Matrix and Shrapnell - both for free.

By enjoying WiR you could also try Pacific War and if you like this one, jumping to WitP, the Queen of grand strategy.

For civil war: WbtS. FoF and AACW are good but WbtS is brilliant.

Regarding Napoleonic I'd suggest CoG:EE, the rest isn't any good. Just consider that you can play either with advanced economy or have no economy at all to take care off, there is not really an intermediate level.

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Post #: 19
RE: Sell me the game! - 5/28/2009 6:22:48 PM   
E

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: sapper_astro

The model T didn't have many competitors E...Guess I grew used to my stack of scenarios and kept hearing how difficult it is to make new ones. If you have any news on this, let me know.


I just got a few more emailed to me last week (although I've already misplaced them before even trying them! (see the CAW forum to get them). I guess the hard part is making new maps. I've never been a scenario builder for any game, so I have zero actual knowledge.


quote:

ORIGINAL: sapper_astro

It would be handy to hear whether SSG is going to make any additions to the CAW franchise this time as well.


I think the resounding silence on that question is a definitive answer. However, I think this version is the definitive version, in spite of a commonly perceived lack of additional scenarios. Note that it is a quick game as stated elsewhere... 30-60'ish minutes per play.


quote:

ORIGINAL: sapper_astro

As for the Apple 2 version...we C64er's got our revenge. Saving money on the system, not mention when more colours were introduced into games yes, we got our revenge.



ROFL! Yeah, and you got to watch more movies while waiting for your games to load! That's okay, we probably broke even... my money went into the hardware, while yours went into popcorn. *grin*

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Post #: 20
RE: Sell me the game! - 5/28/2009 11:27:21 PM   
cdbeck


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Sapper,

I would say that list has a few winners, but mostly is IMHO the weaker set of Matrix's line.

Gun's of August actually is a great operational level wargame that simulates WWI very well. The UI is spartan, but usable, and I am VERY picky about a game's UI being workable. You could do worse than picking it up, and it has only improved with the patching since release.

I am not a fan of the Commander series by Slitherine. I will admit, that I was disenchanted with the WW2 verison, so never played the Napoleonic version, but I trust Jim Cobb's review over at the Wargamer.com. Some will disagree with Jim, but most of his criticisms are valid. I agree with Erik that GG:WaW and AWD are far superior and I enjoy Strategic Command 2 (with W&W expansion) much more. Making History is also a good choice.

I am also not a fan of the SSG series of games - thus Kharkov and Battlefront. This is more personal taste - I find that you don't get a lot of different scenarios for your money with these game and I dislike the very "gamey" aspect of the odds predictor and step system. This is probably more aesthetics than anything - but I always felt that you get pigeon-holed into one battle with these games and that other parts of Matrix's catalog offer more for the same or less money. Just personal opinion.

I did not care at all for Carriers at War - again, I felt like it didn't have bang for the buck and the gameplay is very "hands off."

My suggestions would be -
If you don't own Advanced Tactics then you need to get it, right now! Some will disagree, but I feel it is the best, most elegant system, Matrix has. It contains some of the same type of gameplay as the SSG games, but done in a way that is vibrant, more realistic, involved heavy player involvement, and includes an easy to understand but complex supply and reinforcement model. Best yet, AT has a random map generator, like the old Empire games, that will have you playing the game forever! There are also TONS of mods and scenarios (AT has a very easy to use builder) and so you can play anything from a Fantasy World war to WWI, American Civil War, or a modern near-future war. It's the closest thing to The Operational Art of War II in flexibility outside of... well... TOAW II.

Wait for WiF. It will be the grand-daddy of all WWII operational warfare games. I only hope that they don't go the way of Empire in Arms and require too much knowledge of the original boardgame to be able to play. Also, the UI needs to be prioritized, which was a huge downfall to EiA.

CoG:EE is a nice pick for Napoleonics, and Erik rightfully says that the new release is very different from the original. The new simplified economics mode is much easier to grasp and focuses on the awesome turn based hex battles and the grand strategy diplomatics and expansion. Still, it is a complex game, so you might continue to find it overwhelming. It helps to have a knowledge of the Napoleonic era before playing! If you found CoG made your head spin - forget all about Forge of Freedom - it is even MORE complex and requires more micromanagement, despite the fact that it remains the most detailed sim of the ACW that exists.

Best,
SoM


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RE: Sell me the game! - 5/29/2009 4:35:25 PM   
Obsolete


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MontFort, could you tell me what changes to the GUI in EiA you would make?

By the way, I downloaded the Docs for Fantasy General last night, now I'll wait until I finish up some other things here before I give it a looking over.  I am still rather surprised over the whole deal, I thought I had owned just about every game in the GENERAL series by SSI. 

I have to admit, the game-name just sounds a bit 'gay', which may be part of that reason. 

<No offense disclaimer here>




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RE: Sell me the game! - 5/29/2009 5:29:40 PM   
SS Hauptsturmfuhrer


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You should get Kharkov: Disaster on the Donets.  The reason there aren't more battles with it (other than some user-made ones like Kirovograd) is cause there are too few people supporting the game.  SSG is working on more battles but are losing momentum cause of the lacklustre market.  The Kharkov battle itself has good replayability, especially by PBEM cause people do weird stuff and the destructive battles can go either way.  This is the best PC game, along with the Decisive Battles and Tin Soldiers games, for learning strategic thought cause it makes you think and it burns the carbon off your brain.  It makes you more alert. Compare this to so-called strategy games like Civilization IV which leave you groggy, depressed and feeling like you are suffering from a concussion as your brain shrinks with each repetitive turn.

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RE: Sell me the game! - 5/29/2009 7:12:55 PM   
Obsolete


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It seems some games like to be a little light on the campaigns, and expect the user to create their own.  I think this is a disaster, because people tend to finish the game too quick and will stop playing before they even get a chance to check out what community there may be out there.

As for civ IV.. I have to confess every so many months I become addicted to that blasted game.




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RE: Sell me the game! - 5/29/2009 10:12:37 PM   
cdbeck


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Obsolete

MontFort, could you tell me what changes to the GUI in EiA you would make?



Certainly! EiA suffered, at release, from a complete lack of feedback. For example, when you were asked to place reinforcements to areas, you basically had to hunt for the area applicable, since you were not told what regions open (I suppose if you knew the boardgame rules by heart, you would have less trouble). Another example would be from the treaty and diplomacy system - you were never told what any of the treaty options did, you had no idea the effect, and barely had any idea who would accept what.

So, in essence, the game did not give the feedback required to play it without knowledge of the system beforehand. Tool tips, message pop-ups, dialogue boxes, there just weren't enough of them to serve me. I was confused as to what I could do and why, or what I needed to be doing at a certain point (and why). I hope WiF doesn't fall into this trap as well.

SoM

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RE: Sell me the game! - 5/29/2009 10:29:06 PM   
Obsolete


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Alright, so what I understand is you went into it without having played the board game?  Then I can see where that could be a problem.   EiA has long been known to be a complex game.

And remember, despite TOAW won the wargame of the year award for 1998, it was hated by many, including WarGeneral-series players because of its complexity. 


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RE: Sell me the game! - 5/30/2009 12:53:55 AM   
SS Hauptsturmfuhrer


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Obsolete

It seems some games like to be a little light on the campaigns, and expect the user to create their own.  I think this is a disaster, because people tend to finish the game too quick and will stop playing before they even get a chance to check out what community there may be out there.



If you are meaning Kharkov is a disaster I can assure you the opposite. It is a fantastic game with more replayability than most games cause of the deep strategic focus. I know one guy who's played it over 50 times by PBEM and he's still crazy about it. I don't think I could get bored of it. The fighting is very fun and a well-planned overrun attack resulting in a mangled, shot-up heap of enemy troops, horses and vehicles can give you a buzz like no other game can deliver. Each time I damage or wipe-out enemy units, it is a permanent loss to the enemy so the other player is gonna feel it good cause there is no production in this game to rebuild lost units so you can be deeply satisfied when you score hits. This makes the Kharkov and Decisive Battles game way better than RTS games and Civ type games. Artillery and bombing is direct fire and does terrible damage especially carpet bombing.... very fun! Strategy and violence are the key to big destruction and getting a buzz.


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RE: Sell me the game! - 5/30/2009 12:55:44 AM   
Erik Rutins

 

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I have to agree, Kharkov: Disaster on the Donets gets a bad rap because of the one big scenario. It is however a very well built and tested historical scenario that's extremely fun for both sides. The game system is also excellent and the AI is very good. I think it offers at least as much value as most other wargames in terms of entertainment time in the end.

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Post #: 28
RE: Sell me the game! - 5/30/2009 8:01:04 AM   
JudgeDredd


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If I could inject at this point. The scenario content issue is one which is close to my heart and the very reason I was not going to buy Kharkov DotD. I spoke openly, iirc, before release about my concern for the "one scenario" and replayability.

However, on release I chose to give the devs the benefit of the doubt as they had been touting that the system had variables which made each battle played slightly different. I spent a small fortune on this game (I wanted a manual for this one) and the price was in the region of £45 - a good £10-£15 more then I generally look to spend...especially on a single scenario game. But I was (and still am) thrilled with my purchase. It's a great game with some great mechanics and I haven't regretted spending that money....all this knowing how sceptical I was about a single scenario and the price of the game and I still came away a happy bunny.

I don't want to specifically suggest you buy it. I'm simply saying from one person worried about cost and content to another that I was not disappointed...not by a long shot.

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Post #: 29
RE: Sell me the game! - 5/30/2009 11:43:48 AM   
cdbeck


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RE: EiA - My point and the point I want to hammer to those reading <cough, Erik, cough> is that the PC version of EiA should NOT have required pre-knowledge of the boardgame for players. If it did, then this should have been stated beforehand (i.e. THIS GAME WILL REQUIRE KNOWLEDGE OF THE EiA SYSTEM) - and I hope WiF, which is equally if not more complicated than EiA, will not be the same way.

I've always been left a bit cold with the one scenario style. The SSG games scenarios are HUGE, granted, and they will give you a good amount of gameplay, but I just don't feel they give the diversity that other games offer (Advanced Tactics, for example). But I am also not one for the semi-boardgamey style of the combat either - not so much the execution, but the aesthetics.

SoM




_____________________________

"Neca eos omnes. Deus suos agnoscet!"
(Kill them all. God will know his own.)

-- Arnaud-Armaury, the Albigensian Crusade

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Post #: 30
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