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RE: Thai forces. - 6/23/2009 8:57:24 PM   
Andy Mac

 

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Easier surely to assume the ships interned at Alex went Free French for service outside of the Med earlier than they did so the BB Lorraine, 4 Cruisers, 3 Destroyers and a sub I think.

(in reply to Skyland)
Post #: 31
RE: Thai forces. - 6/23/2009 9:09:00 PM   
JWE

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Andy Mac

Easier surely to assume the ships interned at Alex went Free French for service outside of the Med earlier than they did so the BB Lorraine, 4 Cruisers, 3 Destroyers and a sub I think.

Oh, sure. Just waxing philosophical over the boats floating about in SoPac during the immediate post December 7, 1941 period.

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RE: Thai forces. - 6/23/2009 9:24:41 PM   
Skyland


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quote:

ORIGINAL: JWE

Built 1935 in Denmark, lpp 330’, loa 350’, 15k, 3000 gross tons, 2000 net tons. Not all that big. Was basically a SoPac packet/banana boat making round trips from Noumea to Sydney, at the time.
“Le troisième était le Cap des Palmes, un cargo fruitier de 108 mètres converti en croiseur auxiliaire. Il fut essentiellement affecté dès 1941 au transport de matériel militaire et de passagers (dont les prisonniers japonais) entre Nouméa et Sydney puis, à partir de 1943, à l’escorte des sous-marins américains vers les eaux japonaises.”

Couldn’t find Skyland’s Dec 19, ‘41 trip, but Aus sources list another similar one on Jan ’42, so it seems the Noumea/Sydney route was a routine. It’s very likely she was either at Noumea, or Sydney, or somewhere right between, on Dec 7, ’41.




The info on the december trip is in a book about New Caledonia history. No info about the situation on dec 7th but he should be around Noumea. Here is the infos i have about the ship :

Tonnage 3.082 gross 2.068 net, 1.950 dwt., dim. 100.38 x 13.41 x 5.23m. (draught)
One 9-cyl.Burmeister & Wain 2SA. diesel engine 4.500hp. speed 17.7 knots.

2 90 mm guns modele 1877
after 7 jan 1943 (refit in SF) :
2 152 mm guns in repl. of 90 mm
1 76 mm
12 Oerlikons 20 mm AA
6 (2x3) 533 mm torpedo tubes
2 152 mm mortar
2 Thornycroft mortar
Asdic and surface radar



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Post #: 33
RE: Thai forces. - 6/23/2009 9:37:10 PM   
Skyland


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Andy Mac

Easier surely to assume the ships interned at Alex went Free French for service outside of the Med earlier than they did so the BB Lorraine, 4 Cruisers, 3 Destroyers and a sub I think.


Regarding naval units, i would like stay close to history by including only ships that were present in Indochina and eventually Madagascar in 1941 (i identified more than 30 units from cruiser to tug ! )


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Post #: 34
RE: Thai forces. - 6/23/2009 9:59:23 PM   
Skyland


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Don Bowen

Also love to get detailed service data on the Colonial Sloops of the Bougainville class in Free French service in the Pacific/Indian Oceans.



I found some datas about La Grandière . I will post others may be tomorrow.
09 may 1944 Panama channel
11 may 1944 Balboa
26 may 1944 Bora Bora
12 june 1944 to april 1945 Guadalcanal area
19 june 1945 Trip back to France for refit. Papeete from 28th to July 14th (visit to Raiatea, Bora-bora, Nuku-hiva, Hiva-hoa). Arrival to Brest august 23rd by Panama and French West Indies.

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Post #: 35
RE: Thai forces. - 6/24/2009 1:04:09 AM   
Jorm


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Skyland


quote:

ORIGINAL: Jorm

Ive alwasy wanted to mod in some extra french ships/aircraft into the game and have been searching for feasable scenarios on which units and where would they be deployed etc. Ive alwasy thought i was a tragic waste of a very modern and powerful fleet ie what happened to it In WWII.

any one have any thoughts on what would be a 'reasonable' level of increase in forces to the french units, eg lets say for example the french fleet isnt scuttled at Toulon but escapes, at least in part to the UK where some units are deployed to the pacfic in exchange for support from UK etc etc.
I understand there are many many complexities due to bristish /french relations being some what cool at the time after the Uk attack on the french fleet at Mers -el.-kebir etc. Also, the level of freedom allowed to the 'vichy' fleet by the germans wold be changed if parts of it keep buggering off to the pacific !.

Initially i thought it may just be fun to add some units into french indochina, make them all vichy and make the support the japanese, but Skyland pointed out in a previous thread that this just would not happen.

The way im leaning now is the keep french indochina free french at the begning of the game but have it reinforced from

1. reinforments sent before the fall of france ( some reading suggest the french knew of indochinas vulernability and it was like the philipines was to the USA).ie are implace at the start of the game.
2. french troops in syria decide to go free french and support the colonial troops.
3. madagasca
4. ships not scuttled etc at toulon
5. ships in north african ports

any other thoughts ?






I plan to make a mod for AE with Indochina on allied side with some reinforcements from France before war in Europe and from Africa as it was planned. I built a kind of realistic OoB. Just waiting for AE



cool,
are you up for listing some of your OoB, sounds exactly the sort of scenario im keen on playing/developing

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Post #: 36
RE: Thai forces. - 6/25/2009 10:48:05 AM   
Skyland


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Jorm

cool,
are you up for listing some of your OoB, sounds exactly the sort of scenario im keen on playing/developing


Here is some insight :
There was 12 regiments of infantery and 2 artillery plus 3 "armored" detachments and others small units (something like 90 ooo mens in total), planned reinforcement not included (1 equivalent regiment + some others).
133 various planes were present, planned reinforcement to be added (100 approx).
I identified also 32 navy ships and 39 civilians in Indochina area at that time.

Not enough of course to stop the japanese but it could open some interesting alternatives, with Thai forces involvement for example.

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Post #: 37
RE: Thai forces. - 6/27/2009 10:48:00 AM   
Skyland


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Skyland


quote:

ORIGINAL: Don Bowen

Also love to get detailed service data on the Colonial Sloops of the Bougainville class in Free French service in the Pacific/Indian Oceans.



I found some datas about La Grandière . I will post others may be tomorrow.
09 may 1944 Panama channel
11 may 1944 Balboa
26 may 1944 Bora Bora
12 june 1944 to april 1945 Guadalcanal area
19 june 1945 Trip back to France for refit. Papeete from 28th to July 14th (visit to Raiatea, Bora-bora, Nuku-hiva, Hiva-hoa). Arrival to Brest august 23rd by Panama and French West Indies.



More complete :

La Grandière
1944-45 :
09 May 9, Panama channel
May 11, Balboa
May 29, Bora Bora
June 4, depart for Noumea
June 14, Noumea. Savorgnan de Brazza is anchored
June 26, depart for Lunganville then Purvis bay as escort. 3 months duty in Salomon / Hebrides
September 11, depart for Manus as escort
October, back to Purvis Bay. Cap des Palmes is anchored. Depart for Esperitu Santo. 65 days of "ready duty" then depart for Funafuti. 45 days of "ready duty". Depart for Russel then Noumea.
May 1, 45 : Noumea
19 june 19, depart to France for refit. Papeete from 28th to July 14th (visit to Raiatea, Bora-bora, Nuku-hiva, Hiva-hoa). Arrival to Brest august 23rd by Panama and French West Indies.

Savorgnan de Brazza
1941-42
May 2, 41 to Jan 7, 42 : Djibouti blocade (based at Aden)
then Newcastle for refit and Atlantic in 1942-43
back to Indian Ocean to relieve Commandant Duboc (proceeding to the Levant) :
1943 :
May 27 : Aden - Durban
June 27 : Durban - Tamatave
July 7 : Tamatave - Diego Suarez
July 22 : Comores trip
August 12 : La Reunion
August 17 : Mauritius - Tamatave
August 23 : Tamatave - Diego Suarez as escort
August 25 : return trip as escort
September 4 : same
September 7 : same
September 9 : same then proceed to Dar es Salaam
September 21 : leave Nosi Be searching for Empire Fairy 48h overdue at Diego Suarez
October 27 : Diego Suarez from Tamatave
October 31 : Kilindini from Diego Suarez
November 9 : Kilindini to Diego Suarez with HMRT Prudent
November 12 : Diego Suarez
November 22 : escorting HMRT Prudent, ML 832, 832, 381, 846 to Seychelles
November 24 : Seychelles
December 3 : Addu Atoll from Seychelles and return december 4
December 9 : Secheylles to Diego Suarez
December 11 : Diego Suarez, assistance to Le Triomphant damaged by a cyclone.
December 13, 43 : attack an unknow submarine (german ?), probably sunk.
December 19, 43 : arrival to Diego Suarez with Le Triomphant
1944 :
February 11, 44 : assistance to a british cargo torpedoed between La Reunion and Madagascar.
March : depart for South Pacific (Guadalcanal area for convoy escort )
June 14 : anchored at Noumea
November 4, depart Diego Suarez for France
November 23, Mombassa

Specifications :
Disp : 1 969 tW 2156 tons (normal) 2600 tons (loaded)
Size : 103,70 m x 12,70 m, draft 4,80 m
2 x diesel Burmeister & Wain or Sulzer – 2 propellers – 3200 hp
Speed 15,5 nds 17,2 nds (trial)
Fuel 297 tons
Endurance :13 000 milles (8,5 nds) - 7 600 milles (14 nds)
Armamant :
3x1 138mm
4x1 37mm AA
3x2 13.2mm AA
50 mines (Breguet B4 ?)
1 plane GL832
After refit :
3x1 138mm
4x1 40mm AA Bofors
11x1 20mm AA Oerlikon
4 ASW mortars
6 depth charge launchers (66 charges)
1 surface radar, 1 air radar, 1 sonar, 1 ASAP


(in reply to Skyland)
Post #: 38
RE: Thai forces. - 6/27/2009 5:53:42 PM   
Dili

 

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Le Chevreuil(Minesweeper Aviso Chamois Class)

Après plusieurs missions dans l'Atlantique, il se rend en Angleterre lors de la débacle. Il est saisi par la Royal Navy le 3 juillet 1940 à Portsmouth.
Réarmé F.N.F.L. son armement est modifié : le vieux canon de 100 mm modèle 1897 est débarqué et remplacé par une pièce de 100 mm (modèle 1932) provenant de La Flore. Par ailleurs une pièce de 11 livres Mark II est installée à l'avant. Enfin, il est équipé d'un ASDIC et d'une ceinture d'immunisation.
La cession eut lieu le 3 septembre 1940, et le lieutenant de vaisseau Fourlinnie en prend le commandement. Il participe à des protection de convois le long des côtes anglaises (au sud vers Spitshead). Avarié, il est indisponible d'octobre 1940 à avril 1941.
Avril - août 1941 : affecté à Dundee sous les ordres du commandant de la 5ème Flotille de Sous-Marins comme "Submarine-tender" (ravitailleur de Sous-Marins)
Août - octobre 1941 : Rejoint Papeete (Tahiti) rallié à la France libre
Fin 1941 : Gagne Nouméa (Nouvelle-Calédonie)
Janvier - février 1942 : Missions dans les îles Cook.
Mai 1942 : Participe au ralliement de Wallis et Futuna à la France libre.
Juin 1942 - mars 1943 : Reste basé à Papeete.
Avril - mai 1943 : Escortes entre Sydney et Nouméa.
14 mai 1943 : Enseigne de vaisseau Kerez prend le commandement par Intérim.
Juin - juillet 1943 : Basé à Nouméa.
Juillet - Août 1943 : Arrive en Californie.
10 août 1943 : Lieutenent de vaisseau Villebois prend le commandement du navire.
Il fini la guerre en A.O.F. à partir de 1944 et il est cédé à la Tunisie en octobre 1959

L'Annamite(Minesweeper Aviso Chamois Class)

De retour en A.O.F. (mai 1941), elle effectuera des missions en Atlantique puis en Indochine juste avant la capitulation du Japon.



< Message edited by Dili -- 6/27/2009 6:14:14 PM >

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Post #: 39
RE: Thai forces. - 7/2/2009 11:54:37 AM   
afspret


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English please for us un-educated colonials


quote:

ORIGINAL: Dili

Le Chevreuil(Minesweeper Aviso Chamois Class)

Après plusieurs missions dans l'Atlantique, il se rend en Angleterre lors de la débacle. Il est saisi par la Royal Navy le 3 juillet 1940 à Portsmouth.
Réarmé F.N.F.L. son armement est modifié : le vieux canon de 100 mm modèle 1897 est débarqué et remplacé par une pièce de 100 mm (modèle 1932) provenant de La Flore. Par ailleurs une pièce de 11 livres Mark II est installée à l'avant. Enfin, il est équipé d'un ASDIC et d'une ceinture d'immunisation.
La cession eut lieu le 3 septembre 1940, et le lieutenant de vaisseau Fourlinnie en prend le commandement. Il participe à des protection de convois le long des côtes anglaises (au sud vers Spitshead). Avarié, il est indisponible d'octobre 1940 à avril 1941.
Avril - août 1941 : affecté à Dundee sous les ordres du commandant de la 5ème Flotille de Sous-Marins comme "Submarine-tender" (ravitailleur de Sous-Marins)
Août - octobre 1941 : Rejoint Papeete (Tahiti) rallié à la France libre
Fin 1941 : Gagne Nouméa (Nouvelle-Calédonie)
Janvier - février 1942 : Missions dans les îles Cook.
Mai 1942 : Participe au ralliement de Wallis et Futuna à la France libre.
Juin 1942 - mars 1943 : Reste basé à Papeete.
Avril - mai 1943 : Escortes entre Sydney et Nouméa.
14 mai 1943 : Enseigne de vaisseau Kerez prend le commandement par Intérim.
Juin - juillet 1943 : Basé à Nouméa.
Juillet - Août 1943 : Arrive en Californie.
10 août 1943 : Lieutenent de vaisseau Villebois prend le commandement du navire.
Il fini la guerre en A.O.F. à partir de 1944 et il est cédé à la Tunisie en octobre 1959

L'Annamite(Minesweeper Aviso Chamois Class)

De retour en A.O.F. (mai 1941), elle effectuera des missions en Atlantique puis en Indochine juste avant la capitulation du Japon.




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Post #: 40
RE: Thai forces. - 7/2/2009 3:21:34 PM   
stuman


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The condensed version is that in 1940 she did some stuff in Portsmouth, then a lot of other things happened, and by 1959 she for some reason ended up in Tunisia. I think.

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Post #: 41
RE: Thai forces. - 7/2/2009 4:05:32 PM   
Dili

 

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Short version: Le Chevreuil (Minesweeper Aviso Chamois Class - sort of mixed Patrol and minesweeper) After being upgraded in UK arrive in August 41 in Tahiti that choosed Free French instead of Vichy Regime, Noumea in late 1941, then in several French possessions up until Escorting work between Sydney and Noumea. Jully 43 in California (maybe upgrade refit) ends the War in Western French Africa.

L'Annamite(Minesweeper Aviso Chamois Class)

Arrives Indochina shortly before Japanese surrender.

I have put those here just in case this ships were missed.

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Post #: 42
RE: Thai forces. - 7/2/2009 5:14:18 PM   
DrewMatrix


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Sure, I can translate French. I took a year of it in college.

quote:

Le Chevreuil(Minesweeper Aviso Chamois Class)

Après plusieurs missions dans l'Atlantique, il se rend en Angleterre lors de la débacle. Il est saisi par la Royal Navy le 3 juillet 1940 à Portsmouth.
Réarmé F.N.F.L. son armement est modifié : le vieux canon de 100 mm modèle 1897 est débarqué et remplacé par une pièce de 100 mm (modèle 1932) provenant de La Flore. Par ailleurs une pièce de 11 livres Mark II est installée à l'avant. Enfin, il est équipé d'un ASDIC et d'une ceinture d'immunisation.
La cession eut lieu le 3 septembre 1940, et le lieutenant de vaisseau Fourlinnie en prend le commandement. Il participe à des protection de convois le long des côtes anglaises (au sud vers Spitshead). Avarié, il est indisponible d'octobre 1940 à avril 1941.
Avril - août 1941 : affecté à Dundee sous les ordres du commandant de la 5ème Flotille de Sous-Marins comme "Submarine-tender" (ravitailleur de Sous-Marins)
Août - octobre 1941 : Rejoint Papeete (Tahiti) rallié à la France libre
Fin 1941 : Gagne Nouméa (Nouvelle-Calédonie)
Janvier - février 1942 : Missions dans les îles Cook.
Mai 1942 : Participe au ralliement de Wallis et Futuna à la France libre.
Juin 1942 - mars 1943 : Reste basé à Papeete.
Avril - mai 1943 : Escortes entre Sydney et Nouméa.
14 mai 1943 : Enseigne de vaisseau Kerez prend le commandement par Intérim.
Juin - juillet 1943 : Basé à Nouméa.
Juillet - Août 1943 : Arrive en Californie.
10 août 1943 : Lieutenent de vaisseau Villebois prend le commandement du navire.
Il fini la guerre en A.O.F. à partir de 1944 et il est cédé à la Tunisie en octobre 1959


"The Goat Cheese" (a minesweeper that you advised to clean with a Chamois if you have any class)

After plunging across the Atlantic in ripped into England in the fog, causing a debacle. Then the ship behaved sassily towards the Royal Navy on the 3rd of July at Portsmouth.
"My Rear" ("FNRL" or Fanny, Naughtybits, Fat-ass, Lard-but) had a modification (plastic surgery, I think). The old priest, born in 1897, debarques and paid 100 Old Francs to a "piece" (woman of the town at Porstmouth), who had been a model as recently at 1932. Her work name was "La Flore". The others paid their "pieces" 11 pounds for Mark II girls and were allowed in the front room. At the end they all were "equipped" with a case of ASDIC (no translation needed) and had to to get immunizations.
This session lasted until 3 September 1940, leaving a mere lieutenant in command of the vessel. Then the crew got "protection" for their "long convoys" and continued their escapades on the coast of England as far as Spithead. Some girl named Avarie was an indispensable help in this from October 1940 to April 1041.
From April to August 1941 they were affected with Dundee, and sued because of the orders of their commander telling them to sail 5 times under the see, to look like they tended submarines and to eat ratattouille underwater.
Between August and October 1941 they had a reunion in Papeete (Tahiti), and their spirits were rallied because the French birds were free.
Bet a Fiver (or fin) in 1941 that Noumea would win the New Caledonia derby
January to February 1942: Visited the Mission and prayed for a new cook for the ship
Mai 1942: Participated in rallying again because Wallis and Futuna, also from France, were free
June 1942 - March 1943: Rested at the base in Papeete
Avril-May 1943: Hired an Escort service working out of Sydney and Noumea
14 May 1943: The Ensign of the vessel, Kerez, grabbed hold of the commander of the "Interim"
June-July 1943: Restricted to base at Noumea (I think this was punishment for laying hands on the Interim's commander)
July-august 1943: California here we come!
10 August 1943: The lieutenant of the vessle, Villebois, grabbed the commander of the navy (they don't say if this was the commander of the French navy or the California navy)
Finished the war "in AOF" (a stockade I presume. Laying hands on the commander of any navy, even California's, has to be a serious ofence), released in 1944 and exiled to Tunisia until 1959.

quote:

L'Annamite(Minesweeper Aviso Chamois Class)

De retour en A.O.F. (mai 1941), elle effectuera des missions en Atlantique puis en Indochine juste avant la capitulation du Japon.


"The Annimated" (also a mineweeper you are advised to clean with a chamois to show you have class)

Released from the AOF may 1941 (they don't say who he grabbed, though), had an effect on the missions in the Atlantic and said "Pooie" to Indochina just before Indochina capitulated to Japan.



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Post #: 43
RE: Thai forces. - 7/2/2009 5:24:06 PM   
JWE

 

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Mes amis; Le Chevreuil a toujours été dans le jeu. Quant aux autres classes de vaisseau de guerre … en Anglais,

Bougainville, Adroit, Fantasque, Galissioniere, Duguay Trouin classes are in the database and available for use. Most (perhaps all) have ships that are either present on opening day or arrive at some time during the game period.




Sorry, should identify these; from the top, Chamois, Galissioniere, Duguay Trouin, Adroit, Fantasque, Bougainville.

Attachment (1)

< Message edited by JWE -- 7/2/2009 5:25:45 PM >


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RE: Thai forces. - 7/2/2009 8:15:06 PM   
Skyland


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Very nice. Merci !

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Post #: 45
RE: Thai forces. - 7/2/2009 8:36:27 PM   
JWE

 

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Nos plaisir, mon ami. Et merci pour votre l'information.

Ciao. Jean.

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Post #: 46
RE: Thai forces. - 7/2/2009 8:43:14 PM   
Terminus


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Now, now... Not nice speaking French on an English-speaking forum...

Det er bare totalt meget imod reglerne...

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Post #: 47
RE: Thai forces. - 7/2/2009 8:54:03 PM   
Nikademus


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K'Plah!



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RE: Thai forces. - 7/2/2009 8:55:14 PM   
Terminus


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Prosit, Fedberg...

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Post #: 49
RE: Thai forces. - 7/2/2009 8:55:34 PM   
XENXEN


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Is that unwritten rules or official rules  terminus  :-)

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Post #: 50
RE: Thai forces. - 7/3/2009 12:14:52 AM   
doc smith

 

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The French-Thai War of 1941 was like two little, fat 11 yr olds, with crossed eyes and coke-bottle glasses, fighting it out in the schoolyard. Oh, and one had a tire iron.

The Vichy forces in France were :

Land: about 40 inf. bns, 2 art rgts, and 1 eng bn (about 50,000 men; 80% locally-recruited personnel with Fr. officers). Units included Tirailleurs Tonkinese, Annamese Tirailleurs, 11th Colonial Inf. Most were fighting insurgents in Cochin China (called the Mekong Delta in the 1960s and 70s), 12 bns in Cambodia, a few in Laos. Barely able to hold the place against the Viet Minh and local bandits. However, they also had the 5th Bn of the Foreign Legion (with an armored element of 40 Renault FT-17 tanks).

Air: 100 aircraft, incl 40 old Potez fighter bombers, 10 modern Morane 406 fighters, 8 Loire 130 naval scout amphibs, and some odds and sods.

Naval: CL Lanotte-Pickett (8k t., 8x6" w/ range of 28000 yds, 4K mile cruising range, top speed of 30 knots, comm. in 1924), two modern sloops, Dumont D'Urville and Admiral Charner (2k t., 3x5", 9K mile cruising range, comm. in 1931), two PBs, Tahure (700 t., 2x5", speed 20kts, 3K mile cruising range, comm. 1919) and Marne (600 t., 4x4", speed 20 kts, 4K mile cruising range, comm. 1916), and 10 river and harbor patrol boats.

The Thai forces (or Siamese) forces were:

Land: organized into 4 regions, each with several "divisions" (60K men). Best described as militia bdes. Also there was an armored regt with 60 Carden-Lloyd tankettes, 30 Vickers mediums), 2 mot. cav bns, an art. bn with how. and field guns, plus signal and eng units.

Air: 140 a/c with some 35 Mitsubishi bombers (don't ask; I don't know which ones, but the house bets on Ki-30 bombers), 25 Curtis Hawk fighters, 50 Chance-Vought biplanes (again, don't ask), and other obsolete types.

Sea: 2 coast defense ships, described and shown above, the Ayuthia and the Dhonburi (2.5K t., 4x8", 15 kts top speed, comm. 1938), 2 older CD ships (1K t., 2x6" + 4x3", top speed of 12 kts, comm in 1925), 1 ex-Brit WWI era DD, and assorted small craft.

Cross-border clashes began in Oct 1940 (reminds me of the Italians attacking France after Germany had them on the ropes, eh?), and air ops beginning in Jan 41. Also in Jan. 41, the Thai Army struck in Cambodia and Laos but had almost no opposition. Two Lao provinces on the west bank of the Mekong were taken. The Thais advanced into Battembang Province in Cambodia.

The French counterattacked at Yang Dam Koun on 16 Jan 41, spearheaded by the lads in kepi blancs, who stopped the Thais cold. The Thai armor, however, managed to push back the Legionnaires. Very light casualties on each side. Only a few thousand men from each side were in the battle, but all arms, armor, infantry, artillery were in play.

The naval "battle" of Koh Chang was offshore near the land battle. The Thais wanted to use the CD ships as naval gun platforms. Fr. Governor General, Adm Jean Decoux created a TF in Dec 1940 under Cpt de Vaisseau Regis Berenger (not related to Tom Berenger, of Platoon fame), consisting of the CL and the 4 sloops. They trained as a unit during the run-up to the war, and were well ready for combat. The slower sloops left Cam Rahn Bay on the 13th of Jan, the cruiser a day later, and all units rendesvoused on the 15th.

Acting on intel gained by Loire rcn flights, Berenger caught the two large CDs, 3 torpedo boats, and some log. ships off the island of Koh Chang. Attacking at dawn, Berenger fought like a, well, a Nelson (ironic, eh?). He split his force into 3 teams (CL, fast sloops, slow sloops) to block escape routs and charge the Thai fleet. After 30 minutes, all the Thai ships were sunk or floating junk. Thus endeth France's only successful naval battle in all of WW II.

In the air, both sides made "pinprick" raids on each other - some fighter furballs, bombing of Saigon and Bangkok, but the whole thing lasted only 2 months. The Japanese brokered a treaty that gave Thailand chunks of Cambodia and Laos.

Don't know what happened to the Fr. "fleet" after Japan occupied Indochina. Basically, there WAS NO Thai navy by 7 Dec 41. Only the 5th Legion bn. would be worthy of creating, and maybe the Thai armored force. Casualties during the war were in the hundreds (real scrappers, those two), so I imagine most of ground and air forces were available in December, but IMHO, not worth worrying about. French would be concerned most with not pissing off the Japanese and getting after the rebels (so all would be ready when the French won the war and came back to the colony, no doubt). Thai stuff was probably not able to stand up against the stuff the Japanese faced. Anyway, after the B-29s in India hit Bangkok a few times in '44, Thai strongman Marshal Pibul Songkram was replaced by a civilian government and Thais began sucking up to the Brits and French.

End of lesson.

Peace.

NOW LET'S GET BACK TO YEARNING FOR A RELEASE DATE!!!!

(in reply to Skyland)
Post #: 51
RE: Thai forces. - 7/3/2009 12:50:07 AM   
JWE

 

Posts: 6580
Joined: 7/19/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Terminus

Now, now... Not nice speaking French on an English-speaking forum...

Det er bare totalt meget imod reglerne...

Ahh, crikey, T. It was pretty lousy French. Sister Mary Elephant would have smacked my palm with her ruler if I said that in her class. Was just trying to be polite.

_____________________________


(in reply to Terminus)
Post #: 52
RE: Thai forces. - 7/3/2009 2:58:03 AM   
stuman


Posts: 3907
Joined: 9/14/2008
From: Elvis' Hometown
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Beezle

Sure, I can translate French. I took a year of it in college.

quote:

Le Chevreuil(Minesweeper Aviso Chamois Class)

Après plusieurs missions dans l'Atlantique, il se rend en Angleterre lors de la débacle. Il est saisi par la Royal Navy le 3 juillet 1940 à Portsmouth.
Réarmé F.N.F.L. son armement est modifié : le vieux canon de 100 mm modèle 1897 est débarqué et remplacé par une pièce de 100 mm (modèle 1932) provenant de La Flore. Par ailleurs une pièce de 11 livres Mark II est installée à l'avant. Enfin, il est équipé d'un ASDIC et d'une ceinture d'immunisation.
La cession eut lieu le 3 septembre 1940, et le lieutenant de vaisseau Fourlinnie en prend le commandement. Il participe à des protection de convois le long des côtes anglaises (au sud vers Spitshead). Avarié, il est indisponible d'octobre 1940 à avril 1941.
Avril - août 1941 : affecté à Dundee sous les ordres du commandant de la 5ème Flotille de Sous-Marins comme "Submarine-tender" (ravitailleur de Sous-Marins)
Août - octobre 1941 : Rejoint Papeete (Tahiti) rallié à la France libre
Fin 1941 : Gagne Nouméa (Nouvelle-Calédonie)
Janvier - février 1942 : Missions dans les îles Cook.
Mai 1942 : Participe au ralliement de Wallis et Futuna à la France libre.
Juin 1942 - mars 1943 : Reste basé à Papeete.
Avril - mai 1943 : Escortes entre Sydney et Nouméa.
14 mai 1943 : Enseigne de vaisseau Kerez prend le commandement par Intérim.
Juin - juillet 1943 : Basé à Nouméa.
Juillet - Août 1943 : Arrive en Californie.
10 août 1943 : Lieutenent de vaisseau Villebois prend le commandement du navire.
Il fini la guerre en A.O.F. à partir de 1944 et il est cédé à la Tunisie en octobre 1959


"The Goat Cheese" (a minesweeper that you advised to clean with a Chamois if you have any class)

After plunging across the Atlantic in ripped into England in the fog, causing a debacle. Then the ship behaved sassily towards the Royal Navy on the 3rd of July at Portsmouth.
"My Rear" ("FNRL" or Fanny, Naughtybits, Fat-ass, Lard-but) had a modification (plastic surgery, I think). The old priest, born in 1897, debarques and paid 100 Old Francs to a "piece" (woman of the town at Porstmouth), who had been a model as recently at 1932. Her work name was "La Flore". The others paid their "pieces" 11 pounds for Mark II girls and were allowed in the front room. At the end they all were "equipped" with a case of ASDIC (no translation needed) and had to to get immunizations.
This session lasted until 3 September 1940, leaving a mere lieutenant in command of the vessel. Then the crew got "protection" for their "long convoys" and continued their escapades on the coast of England as far as Spithead. Some girl named Avarie was an indispensable help in this from October 1940 to April 1041.
From April to August 1941 they were affected with Dundee, and sued because of the orders of their commander telling them to sail 5 times under the see, to look like they tended submarines and to eat ratattouille underwater.
Between August and October 1941 they had a reunion in Papeete (Tahiti), and their spirits were rallied because the French birds were free.
Bet a Fiver (or fin) in 1941 that Noumea would win the New Caledonia derby
January to February 1942: Visited the Mission and prayed for a new cook for the ship
Mai 1942: Participated in rallying again because Wallis and Futuna, also from France, were free
June 1942 - March 1943: Rested at the base in Papeete
Avril-May 1943: Hired an Escort service working out of Sydney and Noumea
14 May 1943: The Ensign of the vessel, Kerez, grabbed hold of the commander of the "Interim"
June-July 1943: Restricted to base at Noumea (I think this was punishment for laying hands on the Interim's commander)
July-august 1943: California here we come!
10 August 1943: The lieutenant of the vessle, Villebois, grabbed the commander of the navy (they don't say if this was the commander of the French navy or the California navy)
Finished the war "in AOF" (a stockade I presume. Laying hands on the commander of any navy, even California's, has to be a serious ofence), released in 1944 and exiled to Tunisia until 1959.

quote:

L'Annamite(Minesweeper Aviso Chamois Class)

De retour en A.O.F. (mai 1941), elle effectuera des missions en Atlantique puis en Indochine juste avant la capitulation du Japon.


"The Annimated" (also a mineweeper you are advised to clean with a chamois to show you have class)

Released from the AOF may 1941 (they don't say who he grabbed, though), had an effect on the missions in the Atlantic and said "Pooie" to Indochina just before Indochina capitulated to Japan.




That's what I thought it said . ( very funny btw )


_____________________________

" Gentlemen, you can't fight in here! This is the War Room. " President Muffley


(in reply to DrewMatrix)
Post #: 53
RE: Thai forces. - 7/3/2009 10:43:55 AM   
Fishbed

 

Posts: 1822
Joined: 11/21/2005
From: Beijing, China - Paris, France
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Skyland


quote:

ORIGINAL: JWE

Built 1935 in Denmark, lpp 330’, loa 350’, 15k, 3000 gross tons, 2000 net tons. Not all that big. Was basically a SoPac packet/banana boat making round trips from Noumea to Sydney, at the time.
“Le troisième était le Cap des Palmes, un cargo fruitier de 108 mètres converti en croiseur auxiliaire. Il fut essentiellement affecté dès 1941 au transport de matériel militaire et de passagers (dont les prisonniers japonais) entre Nouméa et Sydney puis, à partir de 1943, à l’escorte des sous-marins américains vers les eaux japonaises.”

Couldn’t find Skyland’s Dec 19, ‘41 trip, but Aus sources list another similar one on Jan ’42, so it seems the Noumea/Sydney route was a routine. It’s very likely she was either at Noumea, or Sydney, or somewhere right between, on Dec 7, ’41.




The info on the december trip is in a book about New Caledonia history. No info about the situation on dec 7th but he should be around Noumea. Here is the infos i have about the ship :

Tonnage 3.082 gross 2.068 net, 1.950 dwt., dim. 100.38 x 13.41 x 5.23m. (draught)
One 9-cyl.Burmeister & Wain 2SA. diesel engine 4.500hp. speed 17.7 knots.

2 90 mm guns modele 1877
after 7 jan 1943 (refit in SF) :
2 152 mm guns in repl. of 90 mm
1 76 mm
12 Oerlikons 20 mm AA
6 (2x3) 533 mm torpedo tubes
2 152 mm mortar
2 Thornycroft mortar
Asdic and surface radar





Humpf! What a tough little guy...

_____________________________


(in reply to Skyland)
Post #: 54
RE: Thai forces. - 7/3/2009 4:50:56 PM   
TenChiMato


Posts: 52
Joined: 8/1/2007
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: doc smith

The French-Thai War of 1941 was like two little, fat 11 yr olds, with crossed eyes and coke-bottle glasses, fighting it out in the schoolyard. Oh, and one had a tire iron.

The Vichy forces in France were :

Land: about 40 inf. bns, 2 art rgts, and 1 eng bn (about 50,000 men; 80% locally-recruited personnel with Fr. officers). Units included Tirailleurs Tonkinese, Annamese Tirailleurs, 11th Colonial Inf. Most were fighting insurgents in Cochin China (called the Mekong Delta in the 1960s and 70s), 12 bns in Cambodia, a few in Laos. Barely able to hold the place against the Viet Minh and local bandits. However, they also had the 5th Bn of the Foreign Legion (with an armored element of 40 Renault FT-17 tanks).

Air: 100 aircraft, incl 40 old Potez fighter bombers, 10 modern Morane 406 fighters, 8 Loire 130 naval scout amphibs, and some odds and sods.

Naval: CL Lanotte-Pickett (8k t., 8x6" w/ range of 28000 yds, 4K mile cruising range, top speed of 30 knots, comm. in 1924), two modern sloops, Dumont D'Urville and Admiral Charner (2k t., 3x5", 9K mile cruising range, comm. in 1931), two PBs, Tahure (700 t., 2x5", speed 20kts, 3K mile cruising range, comm. 1919) and Marne (600 t., 4x4", speed 20 kts, 4K mile cruising range, comm. 1916), and 10 river and harbor patrol boats.

The Thai forces (or Siamese) forces were:

Land: organized into 4 regions, each with several "divisions" (60K men). Best described as militia bdes. Also there was an armored regt with 60 Carden-Lloyd tankettes, 30 Vickers mediums), 2 mot. cav bns, an art. bn with how. and field guns, plus signal and eng units.

Air: 140 a/c with some 35 Mitsubishi bombers (don't ask; I don't know which ones, but the house bets on Ki-30 bombers), 25 Curtis Hawk fighters, 50 Chance-Vought biplanes (again, don't ask), and other obsolete types.

Sea: 2 coast defense ships, described and shown above, the Ayuthia and the Dhonburi (2.5K t., 4x8", 15 kts top speed, comm. 1938), 2 older CD ships (1K t., 2x6" + 4x3", top speed of 12 kts, comm in 1925), 1 ex-Brit WWI era DD, and assorted small craft.

Cross-border clashes began in Oct 1940 (reminds me of the Italians attacking France after Germany had them on the ropes, eh?), and air ops beginning in Jan 41. Also in Jan. 41, the Thai Army struck in Cambodia and Laos but had almost no opposition. Two Lao provinces on the west bank of the Mekong were taken. The Thais advanced into Battembang Province in Cambodia.

The French counterattacked at Yang Dam Koun on 16 Jan 41, spearheaded by the lads in kepi blancs, who stopped the Thais cold. The Thai armor, however, managed to push back the Legionnaires. Very light casualties on each side. Only a few thousand men from each side were in the battle, but all arms, armor, infantry, artillery were in play.

The naval "battle" of Koh Chang was offshore near the land battle. The Thais wanted to use the CD ships as naval gun platforms. Fr. Governor General, Adm Jean Decoux created a TF in Dec 1940 under Cpt de Vaisseau Regis Berenger (not related to Tom Berenger, of Platoon fame), consisting of the CL and the 4 sloops. They trained as a unit during the run-up to the war, and were well ready for combat. The slower sloops left Cam Rahn Bay on the 13th of Jan, the cruiser a day later, and all units rendesvoused on the 15th.

Acting on intel gained by Loire rcn flights, Berenger caught the two large CDs, 3 torpedo boats, and some log. ships off the island of Koh Chang. Attacking at dawn, Berenger fought like a, well, a Nelson (ironic, eh?). He split his force into 3 teams (CL, fast sloops, slow sloops) to block escape routs and charge the Thai fleet. After 30 minutes, all the Thai ships were sunk or floating junk. Thus endeth France's only successful naval battle in all of WW II.

In the air, both sides made "pinprick" raids on each other - some fighter furballs, bombing of Saigon and Bangkok, but the whole thing lasted only 2 months. The Japanese brokered a treaty that gave Thailand chunks of Cambodia and Laos.

Don't know what happened to the Fr. "fleet" after Japan occupied Indochina. Basically, there WAS NO Thai navy by 7 Dec 41. Only the 5th Legion bn. would be worthy of creating, and maybe the Thai armored force. Casualties during the war were in the hundreds (real scrappers, those two), so I imagine most of ground and air forces were available in December, but IMHO, not worth worrying about. French would be concerned most with not pissing off the Japanese and getting after the rebels (so all would be ready when the French won the war and came back to the colony, no doubt). Thai stuff was probably not able to stand up against the stuff the Japanese faced. Anyway, after the B-29s in India hit Bangkok a few times in '44, Thai strongman Marshal Pibul Songkram was replaced by a civilian government and Thais began sucking up to the Brits and French.

End of lesson.

Peace.

NOW LET'S GET BACK TO YEARNING FOR A RELEASE DATE!!!!

Hi,
regarding French naval and air units in Indochina during WWII : The air force was mostly inactive, since Indochina was effectively isolated from France there were no spare parts nor enough supply to maintain planes. The MS-406 fighter squadron was no longer in fighting conditions as were the bombers. Not to mention there were also precious few ammunitions left after the clash against Thailand (same goes for the navy, only the army was in fighting conditions). The 3 last serviceable MS-406 tried to intercept an allied air raid on Northern Indochina and were shot down by japanese fighters (IJA HQ officially apologized for this mistake...).

As for naval units, the CL spent most of the time in harbor (note : due to age(the cruiser was built in the early 20s) some of its main/5.5 inch guns could no longer fire after the Koh Chang battle and could not be repaired) and was eventually sunk at anchor by USN bombers late in the war. The sloops escorted small french coastal supply convoys as Indochina was in dire need of everything and one was sunk by a US submarine during such a mission. The others were sunk at anchor or eventually scuttled in order to prevent capture by the japanese.

All in all the clash against Thailand was the last one the french naval and air units in Indochina could afford to fight, lack of ammo, fuel, spare parts turned the local tactical successes into a pyric victory even before the japanese enforced a cease-fire in favor of Thailand. The french army in Indochina could no longer afford to fight such a fight against Thailand again not to mention fighting the japanese.

So game wise, french army unit could be used as weak static/garrison/CD forces; no air units worthy of note and a naval squadron of one CL (damages around 15), two old sloops in average condition (same stats as Dutch/british escorts), two relatively undamaged modern ones (same stats as USN Corvettes).




(in reply to doc smith)
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