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AE Air vs Ground Units? - 5/25/2009 3:56:59 PM   
pad152

 

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In all of the AAR's I have yet to see a single squad destroyed by an air attack? I have seen non combat losses, guns destroyed and squads disabled but, no squads destroyed! I have seen squads destroyed in naval bombardments and land attacks.



Japanese aircraft
Ki-21-IIa Sally x 25

No Japanese losses

Allied ground losses:
29 casualties reported
Squads: 0 destroyed, 1 disabled
Non Combat: 0 destroyed, 2 disabled
Engineers: 0 destroyed, 0 disabled
Guns lost 1 (0 destroyed, 1 disabled)
Post #: 1
RE: AE Air vs Ground Units? - 5/25/2009 5:16:24 PM   
JWE

 

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Just lucky, I guess. Ran a verification sandbox scenario and squads do indeed die.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Morning Air attack on 1st Test Regiment, at 109,131 (Shortlands)

Weather in hex: Light cloud

Raid spotted at 39 NM, estimated altitude 16,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 11 minutes

Allied aircraft
B-25C Mitchell x 28

No Allied losses

Japanese ground losses:
272 casualties reported
Squads: 2 destroyed, 13 disabled
Non Combat: 1 destroyed, 9 disabled
Engineers: 0 destroyed, 1 disabled
Guns lost 3 (0 destroyed, 3 disabled)


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RE: AE Air vs Ground Units? - 5/25/2009 5:26:30 PM   
jwilkerson


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Joined: 9/15/2002
From: Kansas
Status: online
Yup, we've been round and round on this (as John well knows since he was driving the ferris wheel ) trying to get the air to ground casualties to be not too much - and also not too little. There was a time - oh 25 builds or so ago where whole brigades could be decimated and removed from the map - in open terrain in a few turns - but we (er John and Bill) went back and made some changes and did lots of testing. You still might see an occasional "high end" result or an occasional "low end" result - but we think the averages are good now - and this is as a result of lots of testing - as well as comparisions to stock. Oh and this rework included a routine that is common to air to ground, naval to ground as well as artilllery to ground, so all three are included in the rework.



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RE: AE Air vs Ground Units? - 5/25/2009 11:44:17 PM   
pad152

 

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OK

I just went through Andy Mac's AAR vs. the AI, Dec 7th - Dec 25th.
http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=2123062

Not a single squad was destroyed by an air attack in the combat reports posted! Only when ships with troops are hit do you see squads destroyed!

Games vs. the AI?
AI set on Hard?
Three day turns?





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Post #: 4
RE: AE Air vs Ground Units? - 5/25/2009 11:58:01 PM   
jwilkerson


Posts: 10449
Joined: 9/15/2002
From: Kansas
Status: online
Ok

Just went through my last turn with Nik - in campaign game test ... most of the air to ground strikes have destroyed squads ... not all ... just most ...


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Morning Air attack on 29th Chinese Corps, at 87,46

Weather in hex: Clear sky

Japanese aircraft
Ki-30 Ann x 26


Japanese aircraft losses
Ki-30 Ann: 2 damaged


Allied ground losses:
104 casualties reported
Squads: 0 destroyed, 4 disabled
Non Combat: 1 destroyed, 8 disabled
Engineers: 0 destroyed, 0 disabled


Aircraft Attacking:
26 x Ki-30 Ann bombing from 6000 feet
Ground Attack: 1 x 250 kg GP Bomb

Raid spotted at 45 NM, estimated altitude 10,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 12 minutes
Also attacking 3rd Group Army ...
Also attacking 29th Chinese Corps ...
Also attacking 3rd Group Army ...
Also attacking 29th Chinese Corps ...


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Morning Air attack on 12th Chinese Corps, at 87,46

Weather in hex: Clear sky

Japanese aircraft
Ki-48-Ib Lily x 17


Japanese aircraft losses
Ki-48-Ib Lily: 3 damaged


Allied ground losses:
105 casualties reported
Squads: 0 destroyed, 5 disabled
Non Combat: 1 destroyed, 7 disabled
Engineers: 0 destroyed, 0 disabled
Guns lost 1 (0 destroyed, 1 disabled)


Aircraft Attacking:
17 x Ki-48-Ib Lily bombing from 3000 feet
Ground Attack: 4 x 100 kg GP Bomb

Raid spotted at 15 NM, estimated altitude 7,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 4 minutes
Also attacking 7th New Chinese Corps ...
Also attacking 12th Chinese Corps ...


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Morning Air attack on Toungoo , at 57,50

Weather in hex: Severe storms

Allied aircraft
Blenheim IV x 10


No Allied losses



Airbase hits 1
Runway hits 2

Aircraft Attacking:
10 x Blenheim IV bombing from 20000 feet
Airfield Attack: 4 x 250 lb GP Bomb

Raid detected at 40 NM, estimated altitude 25,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 13 minutes


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Morning Air attack on 80th Chinese Corps, at 88,44 (Chengchow)

Weather in hex: Thunderstorms

Japanese aircraft
Ki-21-IIa Sally x 26


Japanese aircraft losses
Ki-21-IIa Sally: 5 damaged


Allied ground losses:
59 casualties reported
Squads: 1 destroyed, 5 disabled
Non Combat: 0 destroyed, 2 disabled
Engineers: 0 destroyed, 1 disabled


Aircraft Attacking:
26 x Ki-21-IIa Sally bombing from 6000 feet
Ground Attack: 4 x 250 kg GP Bomb

Raid detected at 40 NM, estimated altitude 9,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 11 minutes
Also attacking 92nd Chinese Corps ...
Also attacking 80th Chinese Corps ...
Also attacking 92nd Chinese Corps ...
Also attacking 80th Chinese Corps ...

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Morning Air attack on 3rd Group Army, at 87,46

Weather in hex: Clear sky

Japanese aircraft
Ki-30 Ann x 25


Japanese aircraft losses
Ki-30 Ann: 2 damaged


Allied ground losses:
96 casualties reported
Squads: 0 destroyed, 0 disabled
Non Combat: 1 destroyed, 19 disabled
Engineers: 0 destroyed, 0 disabled


Aircraft Attacking:
25 x Ki-30 Ann bombing from 6000 feet
Ground Attack: 1 x 250 kg GP Bomb

Raid spotted at 29 NM, estimated altitude 10,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 8 minutes
Also attacking Lusu War Area ...
Also attacking 3rd Group Army ...
Also attacking Lusu War Area ...
Also attacking 3rd Group Army ...

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Morning Air attack on 92nd Chinese Corps, at 88,44 (Chengchow)

Weather in hex: Clear sky

Japanese aircraft
Ki-21-IIa Sally x 26


Japanese aircraft losses
Ki-21-IIa Sally: 6 damaged


Allied ground losses:
119 casualties reported
Squads: 1 destroyed, 8 disabled
Non Combat: 0 destroyed, 8 disabled
Engineers: 0 destroyed, 1 disabled


Aircraft Attacking:
26 x Ki-21-IIa Sally bombing from 6000 feet
Ground Attack: 4 x 250 kg GP Bomb

Raid detected at 21 NM, estimated altitude 10,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 6 minutes
Also attacking 90th Chinese Corps ...
Also attacking 92nd Chinese Corps ...
Also attacking 90th Chinese Corps ...
Also attacking 92nd Chinese Corps ...


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Morning Air attack on 3rd Group Army, at 87,46

Weather in hex: Clear sky

Japanese aircraft
Ki-30 Ann x 25


Japanese aircraft losses
Ki-30 Ann: 2 damaged


Allied ground losses:
45 casualties reported
Squads: 0 destroyed, 1 disabled
Non Combat: 1 destroyed, 4 disabled
Engineers: 0 destroyed, 0 disabled


Aircraft Attacking:
25 x Ki-30 Ann bombing from 6000 feet
Ground Attack: 1 x 250 kg GP Bomb

Raid spotted at 34 NM, estimated altitude 9,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 9 minutes
Also attacking 69th Chinese Corps ...
Also attacking 3rd Group Army ...
Also attacking 69th Chinese Corps ...
Also attacking 3rd Group Army ...



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Post #: 5
RE: AE Air vs Ground Units? - 5/26/2009 12:12:02 AM   
jwilkerson


Posts: 10449
Joined: 9/15/2002
From: Kansas
Status: online
Ok,

Went back a few days and picked out strikes that destroyed multiple squads. Note that many of my (I am playing Japanese in this one) air attacks in China are from small groups of light bombers. Towards the end of this batch, when Nik shows up with a few real bombers (the Wellingtons) the casualties increase.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Morning Air attack on Chengchow , at 88,44

Weather in hex: Overcast

Japanese aircraft
Ki-21-IIa Sally x 26
Ki-30 Ann x 4
Ki-48-Ib Lily x 4


Japanese aircraft losses
Ki-21-IIa Sally: 1 damaged
Ki-48-Ib Lily: 1 damaged


Allied ground losses:
68 casualties reported
Squads: 2 destroyed, 8 disabled
Non Combat: 0 destroyed, 7 disabled
Engineers: 0 destroyed, 1 disabled
Guns lost 1 (0 destroyed, 1 disabled)


Airbase hits 1
Runway hits 3

Aircraft Attacking:
26 x Ki-21-IIa Sally bombing from 6000 feet
Ground Attack: 4 x 250 kg GP Bomb
4 x Ki-30 Ann bombing from 6000 feet
Airfield Attack: 1 x 250 kg GP Bomb
4 x Ki-48-Ib Lily bombing from 6000 feet
Ground Attack: 4 x 100 kg GP Bomb

Raid detected at 40 NM, estimated altitude 9,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 11 minutes
Also attacking 40th Chinese Corps ...
Also attacking Chengchow ...
Also attacking 9th Chinese Corps ...
Also attacking 98th Chinese Corps ...
Also attacking 40th Chinese Corps ...
Also attacking 80th Chinese Corps ...
Also attacking 40th Chinese Corps ...

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Morning Air attack on 41st Chinese Corps, at 88,43

Weather in hex: Clear sky

Japanese aircraft
Ki-30 Ann x 19


Japanese aircraft losses
Ki-30 Ann: 1 damaged


Allied ground losses:
113 casualties reported
Squads: 0 destroyed, 5 disabled
Non Combat: 2 destroyed, 1 disabled
Engineers: 0 destroyed, 0 disabled


Aircraft Attacking:
19 x Ki-30 Ann bombing from 6000 feet
Ground Attack: 1 x 250 kg GP Bomb

Raid spotted at 40 NM, estimated altitude 11,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 11 minutes


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Morning Air attack on 41st Chinese Corps, at 88,43

Weather in hex: Clear sky

Japanese aircraft
Ki-30 Ann x 29
Ki-48-Ib Lily x 21


Japanese aircraft losses
Ki-30 Ann: 1 damaged


Allied ground losses:
130 casualties reported
Squads: 2 destroyed, 6 disabled
Non Combat: 1 destroyed, 3 disabled
Engineers: 0 destroyed, 0 disabled


Aircraft Attacking:
29 x Ki-30 Ann bombing from 6000 feet
Ground Attack: 1 x 250 kg GP Bomb
21 x Ki-48-Ib Lily bombing from 6000 feet
Ground Attack: 4 x 100 kg GP Bomb

Raid spotted at 43 NM, estimated altitude 10,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 12 minutes
Also attacking 90th Chinese Corps ...
Also attacking 9th Chinese Corps ...
Also attacking 36th Chinese Corps ...
Also attacking 41st Chinese Corps ...
Also attacking 90th Chinese Corps ...
Also attacking 9th Chinese Corps ...
Also attacking 41st Chinese Corps ...
Also attacking 90th Chinese Corps ...
Also attacking 41st Chinese Corps ...
Also attacking 9th Chinese Corps ...
Also attacking 41st Chinese Corps ...
Also attacking 90th Chinese Corps ...


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Morning Air attack on 77th Chinese Corps, at 88,43

Weather in hex: Clear sky

Japanese aircraft
Ki-30 Ann x 28


Japanese aircraft losses
Ki-30 Ann: 1 damaged


Allied ground losses:
71 casualties reported
Squads: 1 destroyed, 1 disabled
Non Combat: 0 destroyed, 4 disabled
Engineers: 1 destroyed, 0 disabled
Guns lost 2 (0 destroyed, 2 disabled)


Aircraft Attacking:
28 x Ki-30 Ann bombing from 6000 feet
Ground Attack: 1 x 250 kg GP Bomb

Raid detected at 40 NM, estimated altitude 7,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 11 minutes
Also attacking 5th War Area ...
Also attacking 77th Chinese Corps ...
Also attacking 5th War Area ...
Also attacking 77th Chinese Corps ...
Also attacking 5th War Area ...
Also attacking 77th Chinese Corps ...



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Morning Air attack on 36th Chinese Corps, at 89,43 (Anyang)

Weather in hex: Thunderstorms

Japanese aircraft
Ki-30 Ann x 29


Japanese aircraft losses
Ki-30 Ann: 1 damaged


Allied ground losses:
92 casualties reported
Squads: 1 destroyed, 2 disabled
Non Combat: 1 destroyed, 3 disabled
Engineers: 0 destroyed, 1 disabled


Aircraft Attacking:
29 x Ki-30 Ann bombing from 6000 feet
Ground Attack: 1 x 250 kg GP Bomb

Raid detected at 40 NM, estimated altitude 11,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 11 minutes
Also attacking 2nd Chinese Cavalry Corps ...
Also attacking 36th Chinese Corps ...
Also attacking 2nd Chinese Cavalry Corps ...
Also attacking 36th Chinese Corps ...
Also attacking 2nd Chinese Cavalry Corps ...
Also attacking 36th Chinese Corps ...


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Morning Air attack on 55th Cavalry Regiment, at 58,48

Weather in hex: Clear sky

Allied aircraft
Wellington IC x 12


Allied aircraft losses
Wellington IC: 1 damaged

Japanese ground losses:
109 casualties reported
Squads: 2 destroyed, 1 disabled
Non Combat: 3 destroyed, 1 disabled
Engineers: 0 destroyed, 0 disabled



Aircraft Attacking:
12 x Wellington IC bombing from 17000 feet
Ground Attack: 8 x 500 lb GP Bomb

Raid spotted at 28 NM, estimated altitude 19,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 11 minutes

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Morning Air attack on 55th Cavalry Regiment, at 58,48

Weather in hex: Clear sky

Allied aircraft
Wellington IC x 12
P-40E Warhawk x 4


Allied aircraft losses
Wellington IC: 1 damaged

Japanese ground losses:
72 casualties reported
Squads: 0 destroyed, 4 disabled
Non Combat: 3 destroyed, 1 disabled
Engineers: 0 destroyed, 0 disabled



Aircraft Attacking:
12 x Wellington IC bombing from 17000 feet
Ground Attack: 8 x 500 lb GP Bomb

Raid spotted at 30 NM, estimated altitude 17,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 12 minutes



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RE: AE Air vs Ground Units? - 5/26/2009 12:51:42 AM   
pad152

 

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Is it because Andy is playing against the AI and/or the AI on hard?


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RE: AE Air vs Ground Units? - 5/26/2009 2:58:40 AM   
jwilkerson


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From: Kansas
Status: online
Nah, probably just small airstrikes at high altitudes against full strength units.

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Post #: 8
RE: AE Air vs Ground Units? - 5/26/2009 9:13:22 PM   
Barb


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From: Bratislava, Slovakia
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Well I dont suppose that a bomb could wipe out 10-12 men squad completely in normal combat situation (foxholes or lying, properly dispersed, ...).
One of the possible things that could happen to cause that loss is muster, or issuing of rations. But I cant imagine an officer allowing this under attack


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RE: AE Air vs Ground Units? - 5/26/2009 11:17:53 PM   
m10bob


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From: Dismal Seepage Indiana
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Barb

Well I dont suppose that a bomb could wipe out 10-12 men squad completely in normal combat situation (foxholes or lying, properly dispersed, ...).
One of the possible things that could happen to cause that loss is muster, or issuing of rations. But I cant imagine an officer allowing this under attack




Well...I witnessed a B 52 strike with 500 lb bombs destroy a Bn, and it did not take direct hits..We walked in and they were walking out, crying, weaponless, and totally spent..Those people were within maybe 100 yards of the target, IIRC..

Correction, those survivers were Bn strength..

< Message edited by m10bob -- 5/26/2009 11:18:42 PM >


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RE: AE Air vs Ground Units? - 5/27/2009 3:07:19 AM   
Fallschirmjager


Posts: 6778
Joined: 3/18/2002
From: Chattanooga, Tennessee
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quote:

ORIGINAL: m10bob

quote:

ORIGINAL: Barb

Well I dont suppose that a bomb could wipe out 10-12 men squad completely in normal combat situation (foxholes or lying, properly dispersed, ...).
One of the possible things that could happen to cause that loss is muster, or issuing of rations. But I cant imagine an officer allowing this under attack




Well...I witnessed a B 52 strike with 500 lb bombs destroy a Bn, and it did not take direct hits..We walked in and they were walking out, crying, weaponless, and totally spent..Those people were within maybe 100 yards of the target, IIRC..

Correction, those survivers were Bn strength..


Can't a B-52 drop something like 140 500lb bombs?

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Post #: 11
RE: AE Air vs Ground Units? - 5/27/2009 6:49:25 AM   
Barb


Posts: 2502
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From: Bratislava, Slovakia
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Well but I would accept much more "disablements" than "destroyed" squads for those survivors.

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Post #: 12
RE: AE Air vs Ground Units? - 5/27/2009 7:22:03 AM   
castor troy


Posts: 13348
Joined: 8/23/2004
From: Austria
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Fallschirmjager


quote:

ORIGINAL: m10bob

quote:

ORIGINAL: Barb

Well I dont suppose that a bomb could wipe out 10-12 men squad completely in normal combat situation (foxholes or lying, properly dispersed, ...).
One of the possible things that could happen to cause that loss is muster, or issuing of rations. But I cant imagine an officer allowing this under attack




Well...I witnessed a B 52 strike with 500 lb bombs destroy a Bn, and it did not take direct hits..We walked in and they were walking out, crying, weaponless, and totally spent..Those people were within maybe 100 yards of the target, IIRC..

Correction, those survivers were Bn strength..


Can't a B-52 drop something like 140 500lb bombs?



I guess he meant a B-25, not a B-52. While I´m more than sure that the bomb load of a B-25 is enough to take out a complete squad (if not sitting in a concrete bunker), there is no doubt a B-52 could do that.

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RE: AE Air vs Ground Units? - 5/27/2009 10:13:13 AM   
Flying Tiger

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: m10bob

quote:

ORIGINAL: Barb

Well I dont suppose that a bomb could wipe out 10-12 men squad completely in normal combat situation (foxholes or lying, properly dispersed, ...).
One of the possible things that could happen to cause that loss is muster, or issuing of rations. But I cant imagine an officer allowing this under attack




Well...I witnessed a B 52 strike with 500 lb bombs destroy a Bn, and it did not take direct hits..We walked in and they were walking out, crying, weaponless, and totally spent..Those people were within maybe 100 yards of the target, IIRC..

Correction, those survivers were Bn strength..


Still, this sounds like they were disabled (albeit severely) rather than destroyed. They were still walking.....

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RE: AE Air vs Ground Units? - 5/27/2009 1:36:54 PM   
morganbj


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From: Mosquito Bite, Texas
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I'm sure he was talking about a B52, obviously in 'Nam, otherwise known as the Jolly Green Jungle.  I was involved with an Arclight that purportedly took out a division in the central highlands.  We had "bugged" the infiltration route with persids (Is that the correct term?  My mind fails me at times.)  and when we got enough activity, .... well, it was devastating. And, no, not very many, if any, walked out.

Of course, the ordanance was different than in WWII, as was the payload of the aircraft.  I don't think strikes like that were possible before the mid to late '60s.


< Message edited by bjmorgan -- 5/27/2009 1:40:39 PM >

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Post #: 15
RE: AE Air vs Ground Units? - 5/27/2009 1:38:51 PM   
jwilkerson


Posts: 10449
Joined: 9/15/2002
From: Kansas
Status: online

quote:

ORIGINAL: castor troy

I guess he meant a B-25, not a B-52. While I´m more than sure that the bomb load of a B-25 is enough to take out a complete squad (if not sitting in a concrete bunker), there is no doubt a B-52 could do that.


For the record - B-25s will be included in the delivered scenarios of AE - B-52s will not be!


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RE: AE Air vs Ground Units? - 5/27/2009 1:48:41 PM   
treespider


Posts: 9796
Joined: 1/30/2005
From: Edgewater, MD
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quote:

ORIGINAL: jwilkerson


quote:

ORIGINAL: castor troy

I guess he meant a B-25, not a B-52. While I´m more than sure that the bomb load of a B-25 is enough to take out a complete squad (if not sitting in a concrete bunker), there is no doubt a B-52 could do that.


For the record - B-25s will be included in the delivered scenarios of AE - B-52s will not be!




Dang...I thought we were including it. Guess we'll need to redo all of our testing, it may have skewed the results.

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Post #: 17
RE: AE Air vs Ground Units? - 5/27/2009 6:55:28 PM   
m10bob


Posts: 8622
Joined: 11/3/2002
From: Dismal Seepage Indiana
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: jwilkerson


quote:

ORIGINAL: castor troy

I guess he meant a B-25, not a B-52. While I´m more than sure that the bomb load of a B-25 is enough to take out a complete squad (if not sitting in a concrete bunker), there is no doubt a B-52 could do that.


For the record - B-25s will be included in the delivered scenarios of AE - B-52s will not be!




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