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AE Port Size & Ship/TF tons - 5/17/2009 4:17:33 PM   
pad152

 

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1. If a level 6 port can only dock 84,000 tons, does that mean is can only (base i.e. dock) 84,000 tons of ships?

2. Do ships base based (i.e. docked not in a task force) at a level 6 port affect the loading/unloading of other task forces there?

3. Is there something in the ship/task force screen that shows the total tonnage of ships?



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RE: AE Port Size & Ship/TF tons - 5/17/2009 4:23:55 PM   
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quote:

ORIGINAL: pad152

1. If a level 6 port can only dock 84,000 tons, does that mean is can only (base i.e. dock) 84,000 tons of ships?

yes docking limit of 84k means docking limit 84k

quote:


2. Do ships base based (i.e. docked not in a task force) at a level 6 port affect the loading/unloading of other task forces there?

Depends on what you mean by "based". TF that are loading / unloading do affect other TF which are loading / unloading regardless of docked or undocked status.

quote:


3. Is there something in the ship/task force screen that shows the total tonnage of ships?

Yes, there is also a lot of stuff in the manual about this! In fact Don has my approval to post some of that here if he is so inclined.








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RE: AE Port Size & Ship/TF tons - 5/17/2009 4:31:21 PM   
pad152

 

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1. Let's say at a level 6 port, I have the following ships there, 1CA, 1CL, 8DD (ships docked not in a task force). Do they count against the 84,000 ton limit, if new task force arrives and tries to unload (TF - 3 AKs, 3AP arrives and unloads).


2. Does the 84,000 ton limit based on all ships in port or only against ships/TF's loading/unloading?







< Message edited by pad152 -- 5/17/2009 4:36:23 PM >

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RE: AE Port Size & Ship/TF tons - 5/17/2009 4:49:27 PM   
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We will post some stuff from the manual that will help answer these questions - but one component to the answer is that docking limits are not the same as loading/unloading limits - docking limits are docking limits.



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RE: AE Port Size & Ship/TF tons - 5/17/2009 4:53:57 PM   
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Hopefully this will answer some of your questions (and of course generate another dozen "follow-up" questions )






Attachment (1)

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RE: AE Port Size & Ship/TF tons - 5/17/2009 5:14:32 PM   
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Does that mean a BB or CV can't dock and refuel at a size 4 ports if they are over 24,000 tons?

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RE: AE Port Size & Ship/TF tons - 5/17/2009 5:16:11 PM   
pad152

 

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Makes more sense, now the questions!

Total Ships docked in port == Total tonnage of ships docked in port (not number of ships)?

If you exceed the total ship tons docked in port, do you get any indication which ships are docked in port and which are sitting in anchorage (easier targets for attacks)?


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RE: AE Port Size & Ship/TF tons - 5/17/2009 5:41:47 PM   
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One thing to keep in mind - for AE we decided to implement some "Port Restrictions" - which were not much implemented in stock.

Among other things - this meant that it would be harder to load and unload - meaning it would take longer to load or unload - especially at smaller ports - and that it would be harder to rearm and refuel and smaller ports as well.

Now in our testing there has been a lot of hollering about these restrictions. Interestingly everyone on the team wanted more realistic restrictions - but when we put them in basically everyone (including me! ) hollered about these new restrictions!

So we wanted our cake - and we wanted to eat it too. Shame on us. More restrictions means more restrictions - this means you cannot do the things in AE that you can do in stock. Your ports are much more important in AE than they were in stock.

Now, because of all the hollering, a number of "compromises" have been made which back off from the harsh (uh realistic) restrictions we had oh 9 months ago - but - we have still not just removed all the restrictions - things are still tougher than stock in terms of loading / unloading / fueling / rearming ... especially at smaller ports.

But as an example, any TF can refuel at a level-5 or better port - even if it cannot dock - even if it has ships that cannot dock. We assume a level-5 port has sufficient port craft to move the fuel around in the port and refuel the ships. Note that this capacility existed in a level-1 port in stock. It exists in AE but at level-5, not level-1. So your level-5 ports are golden when it comes to refueling.

I'm happy to answer more questions - and maybe John and Don (the naval team designer and implementor respectively of these systems) can jump in and help me out - but to fully understand the new port systems - you will need to wait and get the game - read the manual - play the game - and get used to how it works. I doubt we could fully explain it here in the time available - and to really understand how to use it - you need to use it anyway.

After I got used to it - I liked it - I think it is so much more realistic than stock.



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RE: AE Port Size & Ship/TF tons - 5/17/2009 5:44:44 PM   
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I agree. That's much more realistic than refueling the Yamato at a size 1 port. As you point out, size 5 ports will be very important!

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RE: AE Port Size & Ship/TF tons - 5/17/2009 6:48:21 PM   
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So you can still disband 300 ships at Wake? Why no restrictions on this?

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RE: AE Port Size & Ship/TF tons - 5/17/2009 7:24:34 PM   
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Many things are different - many things are SAIEW - this one is SAIEW. Actually I think we had this restricted further at one point many moons back - but there was too much hollering so we moved this one back to SAIEW.


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RE: AE Port Size & Ship/TF tons - 5/17/2009 7:31:01 PM   
Yamato hugger

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: rogueusmc

So you can still disband 300 ships at Wake? Why no restrictions on this?


Actually in this regard AE goes even further out. You dont even need a size 3 port to disband anymore. You can disband anywhere (which makes it easy to hide from sneaky allied carrier TFs strolling through the Gilberts

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RE: AE Port Size & Ship/TF tons - 5/17/2009 7:45:25 PM   
pad152

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Yamato hugger


quote:

ORIGINAL: rogueusmc

So you can still disband 300 ships at Wake? Why no restrictions on this?


Actually in this regard AE goes even further out. You dont even need a size 3 port to disband anymore. You can disband anywhere (which makes it easy to hide from sneaky allied carrier TFs strolling through the Gilberts



Please Explain - That sounds gamey as hell!


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RE: AE Port Size & Ship/TF tons - 5/17/2009 7:53:25 PM   
Yamato hugger

 

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Nothing to explain. Anything you could disband at a level 3 port in WitP you can disband at any friendly controlled port regardless of size.

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RE: AE Port Size & Ship/TF tons - 5/17/2009 8:04:58 PM   
pad152

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Yamato hugger

Nothing to explain. Anything you could disband at a level 3 port in WitP you can disband at any friendly controlled port regardless of size.


But why?

Is disband something different in AE than in WITP?

Dispanded ships in WITP got some benefits for repairs (stopping flood damage, reduce fires, etc.), same in AE?

Why would you disband a CV task force at a level 0 or level 1 port?


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RE: AE Port Size & Ship/TF tons - 5/17/2009 8:09:34 PM   
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One thing to keep in mind is that in WITP and in AE there is no differentiation between the concept of an "anchorage" and a "port".

A geographical location like Majuro Atoll - or Eniwetok - might have a huge anchorage that can offer some protection from the Ocean swell - but there might be no port there at all - not even a dilapidated fishing pier. So we can assume that a disbanded fleet might be in the anchorage regardless of the presence of a port.

One day, a different game could represent both ideas separately. Anchorage capacity is one thing - port capacity is something else. These concepts are not separate in WITP or AE - they are more abstract - rather than less.



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RE: AE Port Size & Ship/TF tons - 5/17/2009 8:12:13 PM   
JWE

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: rogueusmc
So you can still disband 300 ships at Wake? Why no restrictions on this?

Actually, Lee, that’s the $64,000 question. Darn, you must be a Marine.

Disbanding a TF means the TF anchors. Understand that lots of ports don’t have holding grounds for a gazillion ships, but these are 40nm hexes, and most do, so there it is. Just think Ulithi – Port = squat, but the whole PacFlt can anchor.

Ports now have capability. A gazillion boats can drop the hook in harbor, but can they do their deed – just think Noumea with 37 ships in the roads for 4 months, waiting for a space at the pier.

Please ignore. Going away now.


< Message edited by JWE -- 5/17/2009 8:44:12 PM >


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RE: AE Port Size & Ship/TF tons - 5/17/2009 9:11:31 PM   
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quote:

ORIGINAL: jwilkerson

One thing to keep in mind is that in WITP and in AE there is no differentiation between the concept of an "anchorage" and a "port".

A geographical location like Majuro Atoll - or Eniwetok - might have a huge anchorage that can offer some protection from the Ocean swell - but there might be no port there at all - not even a dilapidated fishing pier. So we can assume that a disbanded fleet might be in the anchorage regardless of the presence of a port.

One day, a different game could represent both ideas separately. Anchorage capacity is one thing - port capacity is something else. These concepts are not separate in WITP or AE - they are more abstract - rather than less.



Now that makes more sense...thank you.

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RE: AE Port Size & Ship/TF tons - 5/17/2009 9:17:48 PM   
rogueusmc


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quote:

ORIGINAL: JWE

quote:

ORIGINAL: rogueusmc
So you can still disband 300 ships at Wake? Why no restrictions on this?

Actually, Lee, that’s the $64,000 question. Darn, you must be a Marine.

Disbanding a TF means the TF anchors. Understand that lots of ports don’t have holding grounds for a gazillion ships, but these are 40nm hexes, and most do, so there it is. Just think Ulithi – Port = squat, but the whole PacFlt can anchor.

Ports now have capability. A gazillion boats can drop the hook in harbor, but can they do their deed – just think Noumea with 37 ships in the roads for 4 months, waiting for a space at the pier.

Please ignore. Going away now.


lol...I try to not do anything in the game that COULDN'T be done in real life...not everyone does...

Dec 7th starts a ramp up...on the west coast for example, I don't start more than two AKs loading each port, each day...then this doubles after a week...then doubles a week later...I just don't figure that the San Fransisco started loading 200 ships the following morning of the attack on Dec 7th. There had to be a period in which stuff like this ramped up.

It would be nice to have real world restrictions but I couldn't program it. I take what y'all come up with and enjoy in my own style.

Semper Fi,
Lee

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RE: AE Port Size & Ship/TF tons - 5/17/2009 9:37:43 PM   
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So 100 ships disbanded in a size 1 port means a BB TF can come by and have free target practice (if they know they are there). OUCH!!

But only what the screenshot from the manual done by Joe can use the port (size 1) to load and unload as long as they are less than those restrictions. OK, I "think" I have some understanding of this.  

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RE: AE Port Size & Ship/TF tons - 5/18/2009 1:44:25 AM   
Local Yokel


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quote:

ORIGINAL: ny59giants

So 100 ships disbanded in a size 1 port means a BB TF can come by and have free target practice (if they know they are there). OUCH!!

But only what the screenshot from the manual done by Joe can use the port (size 1) to load and unload as long as they are less than those restrictions. OK, I "think" I have some understanding of this.  


OTOH, if I have interpreted recent posts correctly, those 100 ships could be disbanded in a size 0 port and be immune to all submarine attacks except those conducted by midgets.

By the same token, if you put some of those ships into a task force and order that task force to undock then they will be fully exposed to any submarine's attack, notwithstanding that they are within the hex containing the lagoon at Truk or East Loch at Pearl.

This is going to take some getting used to.

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RE: AE Port Size & Ship/TF tons - 5/18/2009 3:23:30 AM   
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Local Yokel
those 100 ships could be disbanded in a size 0 port


Exaggeration is wll well and good sir - but you go too far - we have no level-0 ports!


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RE: AE Port Size & Ship/TF tons - 5/18/2009 4:45:39 AM   
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" lol...I try to not do anything in the game that COULDN'T be done in real life...not everyone does...

Dec 7th starts a ramp up...on the west coast for example, I don't start more than two AKs loading each port, each day...then this doubles after a week...then doubles a week later...I just don't figure that the San Fransisco started loading 200 ships the following morning of the attack on Dec 7th. There had to be a period in which stuff like this ramped up.

It would be nice to have real world restrictions but I couldn't program it. I take what y'all come up with and enjoy in my own style.

Semper Fi,
Lee "


I generally take the same approach. I don't really fret over it, but do try to be sensible about it.

< Message edited by stuman -- 5/18/2009 4:46:22 AM >


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RE: AE Port Size & Ship/TF tons - 5/18/2009 9:54:24 AM   
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OK, I was probably taking 'disbanding anywhere' too far. But I still think there's a case for drawing a distinction between a port's cargo handling capacity and its harbour defence capability.

An out-of-theatre case in point would be Scapa Flow. Not exactly in the same league as Liverpool or London in cargo handling facilities, but against submarines shut tighter than a duck's backside, at any rate after Prien's visit.

Make no mistake, I wholeheartedly approve changes that take account of the limits on a port's ability to shift cargo in and out of ships. I also recognise that, within the existing game's framework, this may only be possible by treating undocked ships as being outside the defended anchorage. But if that's the case it should be acknowledged as a compromise, because there's no necessary correlation between the number of pierside berths and the extent of the anchorage's defences.

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RE: AE Port Size & Ship/TF tons - 5/18/2009 10:45:55 AM   
Dili

 

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quote:

.I just don't figure that the San Fransisco started loading 200 ships the following morning of the attack on Dec 7th.


Scarcity of supply at start will make that impossible

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RE: AE Port Size & Ship/TF tons - 5/18/2009 12:15:23 PM   
Yamato hugger

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Dili

quote:

.I just don't figure that the San Fransisco started loading 200 ships the following morning of the attack on Dec 7th.


Scarcity of supply at start will make that impossible


Thats true. Some of the west coast bases are already in the light orange supply stage. Last I saw, the supplies on the east coast lose 20% moving to the west coast. This may have changed.




It takes the "sleeping giant" a little time to wake up, use the facilities, shave, make coffee, read the paper, ect before he can get down to business

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< Message edited by Yamato hugger -- 5/18/2009 12:18:57 PM >


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RE: AE Port Size & Ship/TF tons - 5/18/2009 2:23:06 PM   
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jwilkerson-If I have TFs in a port and try to load the different TFs in excess of the port's capicity, will there be a "popup" saying I can't do this, or will the TFs just not load?

Also, if there are 3 TFs in a port and the third exceeds capicity, will the other 2 load, or are all 3 shut down?

Anyone know where I can get a brain capacity extender? I'm going to need it.

Thanks, Hugh Browne

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RE: AE Port Size & Ship/TF tons - 5/18/2009 2:55:53 PM   
Yamato hugger

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: hbrsvl

jwilkerson-If I have TFs in a port and try to load the different TFs in excess of the port's capicity, will there be a "popup" saying I can't do this, or will the TFs just not load?

Also, if there are 3 TFs in a port and the third exceeds capicity, will the other 2 load, or are all 3 shut down?

Anyone know where I can get a brain capacity extender? I'm going to need it.

Thanks, Hugh Browne


Allow me to try to clear up some confusion. From this attached screenshot, the top is a base display. You can see that the total tonnage of docked shipping is 6860 tons, the port maximum is 172,000 tons, and the single ship maximum size is 78,000 tons.

The 2nd example is a TF forming. What I did is just like I said I do in my AAR, that is form a TF with a single ship, and then dock it. As you add ships to the TF in the upper right of the TF that is being formed (bottom display) it will tell you how much tonnage you have in the TF and the remaining space at the port. Also, if a ship wont fit into the TF, its name turns white (middle display) and you wont be allowed to add it. Now, if you dont dock the TF first, if you know how much space is available at the dock you can watch the size and add ships to it, but there will be nothing from stopping you from over-loading a TF (in this case, the port can accommodate 24,000 tons, if you go over that, you cant dock the TF. This doesnt mean you cant load or unload it.

Don did something nice here and assumes that ships will be brought into port and unloaded (within size limits of course, a 20,000 ton ships wouldnt be able to unload at this dock regardless) So SOME of the ships will load/unload at "docked" speed, while the remainder will do so at the "undocked" speed. And thats another thing, SOME things can load regardless of if the TF is docked or undocked, just as some things can unload regardless.

For you folks that can read, there is the manual. For the rest of us, its trial and error




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RE: AE Port Size & Ship/TF tons - 5/18/2009 3:00:19 PM   
Don Bowen


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quote:

ORIGINAL: hbrsvl

jwilkerson-If I have TFs in a port and try to load the different TFs in excess of the port's capicity, will there be a "popup" saying I can't do this, or will the TFs just not load?



Neither. The load (and unload) routines will load what they can each turn and keep cranking at it until all is loaded. If, during loading (in the execution phase), port ops capacity is exceeded by one TF and there are more that have not loaded anything, a message is generated saying that TF is waiting loading. TFs not loaded (or unloaded) in one turn will be processed again in the next turn, etc.

But wait, there's more. Ports have docking limitations as well as cargo handling limitations. Dock TFs load (and unload) in preference to undocked ones.


quote:



Also, if there are 3 TFs in a port and the third exceeds capicity, will the other 2 load, or are all 3 shut down?



If the TFs loading/unloading exceed the ports daily cargo handling capacity, load/unload operations up to the capacity limit will be done. No shut down, just a slow down.


quote:



Anyone know where I can get a brain capacity extender? I'm going to need it.

Thanks, Hugh Browne


I recommend scotch.


This thing is really simple and straight forward.

1. Ports have limited docking capacity. Think of this as pier space.
2. Ports have limited cargo handling capacity - piers, cranes, access road, warehouses.
3. Ports have a "cargo master". He (OK, it) will get all the loading/unloading operations done somehow.
3a. If you don't dock any ships, the "cargo master" will simulate rotating ships into the docks and loading/unloading.
4. You control priorities by docking TFs.
4a. You can split/combine TFs to get your priority load/unloads dockable if you want (but you don't have to).

5. You can extend port cargo handling capabilities by getting some Naval Support to the port. This does NOT increase dock space but it increases both docked (simulating stevedores) and undocked (simulating lighters) cargo handling.
6. Under certain circumstances, the port daily cargo handling limit can be exceeded. This is primarily when using amphibious capable ships at small ports. That is, ships that can land stuff over the beach.

and
7. Plan ahead, PPPPPP.

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RE: AE Port Size & Ship/TF tons - 5/18/2009 3:03:45 PM   
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Don Bowen

7. Plan ahead, PPPPPP.



For you non-military types, this means "prior planning prevents piss poor performance".

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