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Codebreaking in AE - 5/11/2009 5:21:57 PM   
dwesolick


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Sorry, I'm sure this has been covered at some point, but I just did a search and came up empty.

Anyway, will codebreaking/signals intel be any different in AE compared to WitP?

Will we still get the "Radio transmissions detected in Tokyo" messages?

thanks!



< Message edited by dwesolick -- 5/12/2009 2:58:53 AM >


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RE: Codebreaking in AE - 5/12/2009 3:01:35 AM   
dwesolick


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Thank you to whichever moderator moved my post to the proper forum (next time I'll pay a bit more attention when posting ).

SO...any response to the above question will be appreciated!

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"The Navy has a moth-eaten tradition that the captain who loses his ship is disgraced. What do they have all those ships for, if not to hurl them at the enemy?" --Douglas MacArthur

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RE: Codebreaking in AE - 5/12/2009 5:16:55 AM   
Yamato hugger

 

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Yes, and just like WitP, they dont mean a thing.

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RE: Codebreaking in AE - 5/12/2009 11:48:21 AM   
RevRick


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Now, if you get one...

"Radio Transmissions detected in hex [600 miles west of San Francisco]." - that might mean something.

One of the problems with an intel report is that there is some raw data with a very, very, very few gems stuck in the middle of something. "2nd Div. planning attack on Guadalcanal." or something of that nature, amidst the "Imperial Palace located in Tokyo" stuff which one has to wade through to gather the few nuggets. That is not what Nimitz would get. Nimitz would get "Intelligence has located (or lost track of) the Kido Butai (probably phrased Japanese Carrier fleet), or "We are getting indications that the Japanese plan to attack Palmyra Island." In a sense, we are playing Nimitz/MacArthur on one hand, and then Joe Rochefort on the other. The amazing thing is that some of these old code breakers could tell where a fleet, and possible even a particular ship was just by the fists of the CW operator on key ships they had identified. Sometimes, even individual ship's transmitters would have signal indicators which could lead to understanding where that ship was. At least we aren't at THAT level of getting intel data. But, most of the data we see is pretty much window dressing unless you are plotting each mid ocean transmission point turn by turn, each location report to see who moved, etc. But, trying to determine intentions by watching who was doing what, with which, and to whom requires either a lot more data, or a more concise projected intel report with a confidence level attached.

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RE: Codebreaking in AE - 5/12/2009 12:00:45 PM   
Mike Scholl

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Yamato hugger
Yes, and just like WitP, they dont mean a thing.



Yep..., pretty much six kinds of worthless!

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RE: Codebreaking in AE - 5/12/2009 1:38:41 PM   
Flying Tiger

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: RevRick

Now, if you get one...

"Radio Transmissions detected in hex [600 miles west of San Francisco]." - that might mean something.

One of the problems with an intel report is that there is some raw data with a very, very, very few gems stuck in the middle of something. "2nd Div. planning attack on Guadalcanal." or something of that nature, amidst the "Imperial Palace located in Tokyo" stuff which one has to wade through to gather the few nuggets. That is not what Nimitz would get. Nimitz would get "Intelligence has located (or lost track of) the Kido Butai (probably phrased Japanese Carrier fleet), or "We are getting indications that the Japanese plan to attack Palmyra Island." In a sense, we are playing Nimitz/MacArthur on one hand, and then Joe Rochefort on the other. The amazing thing is that some of these old code breakers could tell where a fleet, and possible even a particular ship was just by the fists of the CW operator on key ships they had identified. Sometimes, even individual ship's transmitters would have signal indicators which could lead to understanding where that ship was. At least we aren't at THAT level of getting intel data. But, most of the data we see is pretty much window dressing unless you are plotting each mid ocean transmission point turn by turn, each location report to see who moved, etc. But, trying to determine intentions by watching who was doing what, with which, and to whom requires either a lot more data, or a more concise projected intel report with a confidence level attached.


Very well stated Rev.

And what was worse in WitP was that if you didnt read every line of sigint every turn (which i never did!) then the intel is gone, never to be recovered. Sigint should be added to known intel when you scroll over an enemy base (or when you click on an enemy base). For example, after the first few turns we should know NOTHING about most enemy bases that are beyond AC range, but if sigint picks up something then that info should be added to the base info screen. And ideally a click on an enemy base would tell us all the intel we have on that base, AND how we got it (eg. Air recon, sigint, coastwatcher, etc).


< Message edited by Flying Tiger -- 5/12/2009 1:39:11 PM >

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RE: Codebreaking in AE - 5/12/2009 1:53:27 PM   
Yamato hugger

 

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Sig int was very good in the later versions of PacWar. Dont know why they didnt use something similar.

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RE: Codebreaking in AE - 5/12/2009 2:26:14 PM   
ny59giants


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quote:

And what was worse in WitP was that if you didnt read every line of sigint every turn (which i never did!) then the intel is gone, never to be recovered. Sigint should be added to known intel when you scroll over an enemy base (or when you click on an enemy base). For example, after the first few turns we should know NOTHING about most enemy bases that are beyond AC range, but if sigint picks up something then that info should be added to the base info screen. And ideally a click on an enemy base would tell us all the intel we have on that base, AND how we got it (eg. Air recon, sigint, coastwatcher, etc).


As an Allied player, you should use Bodhi's Utility which is the best I know of to track in tel reports info for multiple turns. You load the reports in each turn and you can adjust how many turns it holds.

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RE: Codebreaking in AE - 5/12/2009 6:47:15 PM   
Charles2222


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I haven't played the allies much at all, but it seems to me one should keep notes, but only in a very sparing fashion. For example, keep notes only on areas where you expect the enemy 'not' to be, so that surprises are minimized. Either that or concentrate on traffic affecting areas where you are very weak, that is, if you have enough strength during that time to be abel to respond relatively quickly. Then, of course, keeping track of KB whereabouts.

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RE: Codebreaking in AE - 5/12/2009 8:30:53 PM   
Cuttlefish

 

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I've thought a bit about how one might implement an in-game mechanism that does a reasonable job of simulating the abundant intelligence that the Allies gathered in the real war. I keep coming up with two problems:

1. Doing so accurately might hopelessly damage the game as a game. I think that for me, and perhaps for many players, the game is at its most exciting when you commit your forces and wait for the result, not knowing exactly where the enemy is or what they are up to.

2. It is impossible to simulate the most crucial element of the intelligence picture, and that is the Japanese side's blissful assumption that their codes are unbreakable. It's hard to think of a system that a cunning Japanese player could not actually turn around and use against the Allied player. We already see a bit of this with Japanese divisions assigned to prep for false targets.

I don't mean to say these problems can't be overcome, just that any codebreaking/intel changes need to be thought through very carefully.

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RE: Codebreaking in AE - 5/12/2009 10:55:00 PM   
ChickenOfTheSea


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The game doesn't include false positives about current location. If you get a report that the Xth Division is at A, they are at A. In the war, you might get a report that the Xth Division is at B instead of A. There were also conflicting reports that the Xth Division is at A and B. Choose which you believe.

I think this particular aspect of sigint is unrealistically accurate.

< Message edited by ChickenOfTheSea -- 5/12/2009 10:58:41 PM >


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RE: Codebreaking in AE - 5/12/2009 11:15:44 PM   
Mistmatz

 

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It would be nice if the enhanced WitP tracker for AE would be able to show sigint locations like Bodhis tool did.

I think the chances that Bodhis tool works with AE are limited and I havent seen him around for a while, so this might mean we will not see an 'AE ready ' version of it...

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RE: Codebreaking in AE - 5/12/2009 11:22:13 PM   
Yamato hugger

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: ChickenOfTheSea

The game doesn't include false positives about current location. If you get a report that the Xth Division is at A, they are at A. In the war, you might get a report that the Xth Division is at B instead of A. There were also conflicting reports that the Xth Division is at A and B. Choose which you believe.

I think this particular aspect of sigint is unrealistically accurate.


Well 2 things here. Firstly the sig int only tells you where the parent is. If you have fragments (especially large ones) these wont be on a sig int report. With the sizes of the atolls, I expect there to be a fair number of fragments as garrison troops on these islands.

Secondly, AE DOES give false reports. I cant say about land units (I dont play allies much) but I get false sub reports all the time.

In some regards the false reports make the reports useless. Ships sunk report for example. Last game I sank 6 BBs at Pearl. 6 weeks later, I still only had 2 on my sink ships report. Also, one of his cruisers hit a mine off New Britan and it was listed on my sunk ships report as sunk when it was hardly scratched. Although I understand ships that are on the list go away after you sight the ship again later, there is apparently no means of finding out about a ship that was sunk that you got no report on. Also, there is no way to see what ships on your sunk ships report are confirmed sinkings and which are suspected. Makes the whole report useless IMHO. The only alternative presented is to turn FoW off, which gives you the whole map, every TF, airbase, and ground unit.

Edit: In WitP an "actual" sunk ship will show up on the sunk ships report within a month. This is not the case in AE.

< Message edited by Yamato hugger -- 5/12/2009 11:35:23 PM >


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RE: Codebreaking in AE - 5/13/2009 12:21:49 AM   
Charles2222


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If one can assume the allies have that information, and remember it, say two divisions slated for Midway, it can also be a weapon. An informed allied player would probably then send some defenses they otherwise might not had sent, when all along the IJ player may had done it just to make the allies think an invasion would come there, when in reality it was done to keep american forces from trying to challenge IJ possessions further west. If the allied player is a bit clumsy, the IJ player could even be attacking other places with those divisions, but not bother changing the place where they are trained for and not be noticed by the allied player. This can of course end up being another weapon, whereas the IJ player after a period of time, deliberately uses those divisions elsewhere to make the allied player think it was a ruse to train for Midway, when all along the plan for Midway hadn't changed because they attacked elsewhere, but only to delay the attack.

< Message edited by Charles_22 -- 5/13/2009 12:23:56 AM >

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RE: Codebreaking in AE - 5/13/2009 2:29:33 AM   
Yamato hugger

 

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You can put 6,000 troops on Midway. I dont care if the whole Jap army is prepping for Midway, it doesnt change the numbers of troops you can put on the island. And any Jap player worth his salt assigns Manchurian and Chinese garrison divisions to real targets knowing allied intel will detect it. The allied player doesnt know if the Jap player has spent the PPs to release the unit or not so therefore has no idea where to defend based on intel reports.

And hitting a fortified island without being prepped for it is a sure-fire lose situation.

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RE: Codebreaking in AE - 5/13/2009 2:40:57 AM   
Charles2222


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Not necessarily. I think you misunderstood what I said in the first place. These two divisions, they keep Midway as their target regardless of what they do inbetween. As well, I wasn't focusing so much on Midway, instead I was trying to pick a noteable target the IJ might want within the first quarter; it needn't be Midway. The thrust was to show how assigning targets to units could be just as much as a deception for the enemy as not ever knowing what targets the enemy has. It's all a matter of whether one wants to dedicate a good amount of game time to deception of this sort of not. There's any number of units that can be used like this and there's very few units, after the first attacks, which have any credible target time accumulated. Naturally, any who has looked at IJ unfairly, or has played IJ considerably, knows that Midway hasn't any accumulated target time built up in any unit at the start, so a full quarter will have to pass for a full preparation, but even so, it or any other target could be fully prepared for within a quarter if they are prepared early on.

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RE: Codebreaking in AE - 5/13/2009 5:22:36 AM   
Yamato hugger

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Charles_22

Not necessarily. I think you misunderstood what I said in the first place.



Well, if I misunderstood you in the first place, then I damn sure did in the second place.

What?

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RE: Codebreaking in AE - 5/13/2009 5:59:07 AM   
Charles2222


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You can use prepared spots, as IJN, to fool the allies as to your intents as to where you will attack. You must not know what I mean by prepared spots, or targets, but I don't know how else in short terms, to describe the destination a unit is preparing for. I'm not talking about making their final destination a way of fooling the allies, as we haven't talked about that, but about training a unit up for a place, and then either using the unit to not attack there later, to make the allies think an attack is coming, or use them somewhere else, perhaps using them somewhere else long enough to where the allies might pull out any additional support they sent to what those units had prepped up for in the first place. Lost you again, didn't I? I can't explain it any better than that at this time.

< Message edited by Charles_22 -- 5/13/2009 6:05:08 AM >

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RE: Codebreaking in AE - 5/13/2009 10:21:39 AM   
Flying Tiger

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Charles_22

I haven't played the allies much at all, but it seems to me one should keep notes, but only in a very sparing fashion. For example, keep notes only on areas where you expect the enemy 'not' to be, so that surprises are minimized. Either that or concentrate on traffic affecting areas where you are very weak, that is, if you have enough strength during that time to be abel to respond relatively quickly. Then, of course, keeping track of KB whereabouts.


But i dont want to take notes!! This is a GAME!! Notes makes it feel like work! Let the computer take notes for me!!

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RE: Codebreaking in AE - 5/13/2009 10:23:31 AM   
Flying Tiger

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: ny59giants

quote:

And what was worse in WitP was that if you didnt read every line of sigint every turn (which i never did!) then the intel is gone, never to be recovered. Sigint should be added to known intel when you scroll over an enemy base (or when you click on an enemy base). For example, after the first few turns we should know NOTHING about most enemy bases that are beyond AC range, but if sigint picks up something then that info should be added to the base info screen. And ideally a click on an enemy base would tell us all the intel we have on that base, AND how we got it (eg. Air recon, sigint, coastwatcher, etc).


As an Allied player, you should use Bodhi's Utility which is the best I know of to track in tel reports info for multiple turns. You load the reports in each turn and you can adjust how many turns it holds.


So you are saying that after this MAJOR redesign of the game a relatively simple and VERY useful (essential??) add-on, that is already available for the original, has not been included as part of the package??

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RE: Codebreaking in AE - 5/13/2009 12:08:30 PM   
Yamato hugger

 

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Ive never found a use for it myself. Woos has something in there that tracks stuff (not sure what, I dont use it). I just personally never saw a use for it.

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RE: Codebreaking in AE - 5/13/2009 3:16:43 PM   
Charles2222


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Flying Tiger


quote:

ORIGINAL: Charles_22

I haven't played the allies much at all, but it seems to me one should keep notes, but only in a very sparing fashion. For example, keep notes only on areas where you expect the enemy 'not' to be, so that surprises are minimized. Either that or concentrate on traffic affecting areas where you are very weak, that is, if you have enough strength during that time to be abel to respond relatively quickly. Then, of course, keeping track of KB whereabouts.


But i dont want to take notes!! This is a GAME!! Notes makes it feel like work! Let the computer take notes for me!!

I'm trying to encourage a small amount of notes, instead of nothing or everything.

(in reply to Flying Tiger)
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