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Loaning corps and fleets

 
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Loaning corps and fleets - 5/11/2009 2:21:36 AM   
Dancing Bear

 

Posts: 1003
Joined: 2/21/2008
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Hi all
has it ever happened to you, that one of your not so good allies, loans you his fleet/corps (maybe of some North Africian minor or some stack isolated deep in enemy territory, either of which are about to be annihilated at a political cost to you), that you would rather not have accepted (only bad allies do this).
Could we add a box to the diplomacy phase, that says "allow allies to loan corps" to prevent this type of abuse (similar the allow access options). The default would automatically be "yes, allow this ally to loan me his corps", but it could be shut off at the option of the player.
This would fix a small thing open to abuse by some players. Rigth now, you can't do anything about it, except break the alliance, which costs you political points (plus those for annihiliated stack).
DB.
Post #: 1
RE: Loaning corps and fleets - 5/11/2009 6:31:13 AM   
bresh

 

Posts: 936
Joined: 8/8/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Dancing Bear

Hi all
has it ever happened to you, that one of your not so good allies, loans you his fleet/corps (maybe of some North Africian minor or some stack isolated deep in enemy territory, either of which are about to be annihilated at a political cost to you), that you would rather not have accepted (only bad allies do this).
Could we add a box to the diplomacy phase, that says "allow allies to loan corps" to prevent this type of abuse (similar the allow access options). The default would automatically be "yes, allow this ally to loan me his corps", but it could be shut off at the option of the player.
This would fix a small thing open to abuse by some players. Rigth now, you can't do anything about it, except break the alliance, which costs you political points (plus those for annihiliated stack).
DB.

¨
If those "lend units" are solo.
It sounds like a bug, if you gain loose pp, i know i reported this long ago(around patch 1.03), so thought it solved now.
You should only gain/loss if you have own forces in the battle, just like in EIA.

I think, ff this is bugged, the host should adjust such gains/losses.

Remember the lend "unit" is only to act as "combined movement"/"Ally paying supply".

Regards
Bresh


< Message edited by bresh -- 5/11/2009 9:50:55 AM >

(in reply to Dancing Bear)
Post #: 2
RE: Loaning corps and fleets - 5/11/2009 12:23:03 PM   
Cunctator

 

Posts: 181
Joined: 3/26/2004
From: Italy
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As I said in another thread, the current "loan" rule is able to ruin this game.
Any corp or fleet can switch to any allied nationality not currently at war against their aggressor to be safe.
Dowing suddenly another MP to destroy or to hurt him badly is a very rare occurrence, while it was the salt and pepper of this game.
You dow somebody in the diplo phase just to see in the very next phase your counterpart loaning every unit in danger to another country who is not at war with you.
Really funny! Really realistic!
Current "loan" mechanism is the most serious threat to the playability of this game.
C.



_____________________________

- Scutum Romae -
"Gladius et Scutum Romae" appellabantur. Hannibal se recepit, Marcellus expugnavit Syracusas, Cunctator Capuam. Postremo Quintus Fabius Maximus expugnavit Tarentum.

(in reply to bresh)
Post #: 3
RE: Loaning corps and fleets - 5/11/2009 2:08:00 PM   
Marshall Ellis


Posts: 5630
Joined: 10/2/2001
From: Dallas
Status: offline
We should have fixed the ability to save yourself by loaning to another player??? If A walks into and area with B's army that has been loaned to C and C is not at war with A then the forces should repatriate immediately AND a combat should be fought.

_____________________________

Thank you

Marshall Ellis
Outflank Strategy War Games



(in reply to Cunctator)
Post #: 4
RE: Loaning corps and fleets - 5/11/2009 7:00:32 PM   
Mardonius


Posts: 654
Joined: 4/9/2007
From: London, UK
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Marshall Ellis

We should have fixed the ability to save yourself by loaning to another player??? If A walks into and area with B's army that has been loaned to C and C is not at war with A then the forces should repatriate immediately AND a combat should be fought.



Hi Marshall: I don't quite understand what you are saying here. Might you clarify?

Additionally, I would like to mention that the repatriation concept is a bad idea, both here and at the end of access periods In htis battle example, troops not involved in combat could simply stay off the battlefield but remian in the area. No need to move them as the areas are much larger than the largest battlefield.

At the end of enforced peaces, the automatic repatriation leads to game abuses. Ihave seen troops teleport from outside Vienna to Moscow in an instant. Moreover, an invader can chase enemy corps deep within the temporary access nation, knowing full well that at the end of the three month period they will get a free ride home.

Why not mandate that transitting troops must end the last month of access no farther than one area away from the border of the state they had access to closest to their home nation or a cotrolled Free State/Conquered minor nation or ceded province? How hard would this be to do?

Thank you,
Mardonius


(in reply to Marshall Ellis)
Post #: 5
RE: Loaning corps and fleets - 5/11/2009 8:12:56 PM   
Cunctator

 

Posts: 181
Joined: 3/26/2004
From: Italy
Status: offline
Let's try to find a solution here:

Lent troops do not change nationality.
Simply the loanee will have the command over them and he will pay for their supply until they remain loaned to him.
For every other consideration or effect, lent troops remain of their original nationality.
The loanee can command the lent troops but cannot use them to violate the political "situation" of their original nation.

Some examples:

1)
Austrian troops are lent to the russian player.
Austria is at war with france while russia is not at war with nappy.
The french player is able to attack in any eligible area where there are austrian troops also if they are lent to russia.
If in the same area there are some russian troops they remain neutral and do not partecipate to the combat.

Comment: in this way a corp or a fleet cannot escape, hiding under a flag of another country.

2)
Situation reversed.
Russia is at war with france. Austria is neutral.
The russian player cannot use austrian troops to attack french corps or conquer french cities.
If austria has not the right of passage into the french soil, the russian commander cannot move austrian lent troops inside french regions.

3)
Russia and Austria are at war with Nappy.
Russian player will lead austrian lent troops in battle against the Grande Armee, choosing the chit, administrating the losses and everything else related to the battle, as if the lent troops would be true russian soldiers.

In other words:
lent troops retain their nationality and have the same "political" restrictions of their home country.
Simply the loanee move them and fight with them but under those restrictions that keep to be applied.
Lent troops can attack or be attacked only against/by a country that is at war with their original nation.
They cannot move inside another nation if their original country is not at war or has the right of passage with that nation.

Simple...isn't it?







_____________________________

- Scutum Romae -
"Gladius et Scutum Romae" appellabantur. Hannibal se recepit, Marcellus expugnavit Syracusas, Cunctator Capuam. Postremo Quintus Fabius Maximus expugnavit Tarentum.

(in reply to Mardonius)
Post #: 6
RE: Loaning corps and fleets - 5/12/2009 1:29:05 PM   
Marshall Ellis


Posts: 5630
Joined: 10/2/2001
From: Dallas
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mardonius


quote:

ORIGINAL: Marshall Ellis

We should have fixed the ability to save yourself by loaning to another player??? If A walks into and area with B's army that has been loaned to C and C is not at war with A then the forces should repatriate immediately AND a combat should be fought.



Hi Marshall: I don't quite understand what you are saying here. Might you clarify?

Additionally, I would like to mention that the repatriation concept is a bad idea, both here and at the end of access periods In htis battle example, troops not involved in combat could simply stay off the battlefield but remian in the area. No need to move them as the areas are much larger than the largest battlefield.

At the end of enforced peaces, the automatic repatriation leads to game abuses. Ihave seen troops teleport from outside Vienna to Moscow in an instant. Moreover, an invader can chase enemy corps deep within the temporary access nation, knowing full well that at the end of the three month period they will get a free ride home.

Why not mandate that transitting troops must end the last month of access no farther than one area away from the border of the state they had access to closest to their home nation or a cotrolled Free State/Conquered minor nation or ceded province? How hard would this be to do?

Thank you,
Mardonius




Cuncator mentioned that you could loan you forces to potentially save them from a hostile.

In my example above B loaned his forces to C which is not at war with A so if A walked in to the area with B's loaned forces then no battle would be fought because A was not at war with C (Correct me if I'm wrong Cuncator). This was an earlier issue but should be fixed.

Make sense?





_____________________________

Thank you

Marshall Ellis
Outflank Strategy War Games



(in reply to Mardonius)
Post #: 7
RE: Loaning corps and fleets - 5/12/2009 1:37:08 PM   
Mardonius


Posts: 654
Joined: 4/9/2007
From: London, UK
Status: offline
Roger. I thought you were advocating that this was an acceptable outcome, which clearly now you were not.

Any chance of elimanating the teleport repatriation? Or is this already gone?

(in reply to Marshall Ellis)
Post #: 8
RE: Loaning corps and fleets - 5/12/2009 8:54:19 PM   
Cunctator

 

Posts: 181
Joined: 3/26/2004
From: Italy
Status: offline
Hmmm, I'm sorry but probably I'm complaining about an older version.
Currently if A is at war with B and B loans troops to C who is neutral, if A enters in an area with B loaned forces, A can attack B forces?
I don't think so but I would be very happy to be wrong.
Am I wrong?


_____________________________

- Scutum Romae -
"Gladius et Scutum Romae" appellabantur. Hannibal se recepit, Marcellus expugnavit Syracusas, Cunctator Capuam. Postremo Quintus Fabius Maximus expugnavit Tarentum.

(in reply to Mardonius)
Post #: 9
RE: Loaning corps and fleets - 5/13/2009 3:19:05 AM   
bresh

 

Posts: 936
Joined: 8/8/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Cunctator

Hmmm, I'm sorry but probably I'm complaining about an older version.
Currently if A is at war with B and B loans troops to C who is neutral, if A enters in an area with B loaned forces, A can attack B forces?
I don't think so but I would be very happy to be wrong.
Am I wrong?



Hi, as far as I remember that was corrected.
Around 1.02k ?
Havent tested it recently though.

Regards
Bresh

(in reply to Cunctator)
Post #: 10
RE: Loaning corps and fleets - 5/13/2009 12:56:49 PM   
Marshall Ellis


Posts: 5630
Joined: 10/2/2001
From: Dallas
Status: offline
Hey guys:

Yes, should have been corrected (I think 1.04???) and that includes the teleportation that we were wildy doing in earlier versions.

_____________________________

Thank you

Marshall Ellis
Outflank Strategy War Games



(in reply to bresh)
Post #: 11
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