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RE: cost of buying from matrix - 4/30/2009 10:45:14 PM   
Perturabo


Posts: 2519
Joined: 11/17/2007
Status: offline 		Well, at least miniature wargames don't require buying a computer.

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Post #: 31
RE: cost of buying from matrix - 4/30/2009 10:55:42 PM   
Erik Rutins

 

Posts: 33976
Joined: 3/28/2000
From: Vermont, USA
Status: offline 		When you buy a new board game, do you add the cost of your dining room table and chairs to its price?

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Post #: 32
RE: cost of buying from matrix - 4/30/2009 11:19:07 PM   
leastonh1


Posts: 879
Joined: 2/12/2005
From: West Yorkshire, England
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Erik Rutins

When you buy a new board game, do you add the cost of your dining room table and chairs to its price?

ROFL! Not forgetting the cost of earning brownie points with the wife for letting you spend the money in the first place!

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Post #: 33
RE: cost of buying from matrix - 4/30/2009 11:36:19 PM   
Perturabo


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Joined: 11/17/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Erik Rutins

When you buy a new board game, do you add the cost of your dining room table and chairs to its price?

Chairs and tables usually don't become "obsolete".

Also, one can use floor.

< Message edited by Perturabo -- 4/30/2009 11:38:34 PM >

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People shouldn't ask themselves why schools get shoot up.
They should ask themselves why people who finish schools burned out due to mobbing aren't receiving high enough compensations to not seek vengeance.

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Post #: 34
RE: cost of buying from matrix - 5/1/2009 4:34:08 AM   
105mm Howitzer


Posts: 447
Joined: 8/9/2007
From: Montreal, Quebec
Status: offline 		Fine then , the cost of the rent or mortgage?
Big brand wargames are damn pricey, and unlike pc games, which could be modded or have upgrades, borad games remain as such. That COI game had he same design and counters as the one in the 80's. Hell, I purchased SPI Global War on EBay cheap at 40$ Cdn, compared to the usual starting bidding price of 70 or 80$.
I might buy less games for the PC nowadays, but at least I won't completely stop. ( unlike bordgames...Sole exception is the M44 series)

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Post #: 35
RE: cost of buying from matrix - 5/1/2009 4:44:55 AM   
bink

 

Posts: 140
Joined: 12/3/2006
Status: offline 		I am reposting these questions in the hope of getting a response from Erik (or some other Matrix employee):

Erik, I have a few questions which arise from your post:

1. Why don't you make the games more widely available in retail markets? I have not found your products at retail, whereas I have found those of other wargamer makers, such as HPS Simulations.
2. What do you mean by secondary markets?
3. Why the emphasis on "legitimate" dealers you sell to - I assume it is a given you would not sell to illegitimate dealers?
4. Why not post a list of dealers on your website?

Thanks,

bink

(in reply to 105mm Howitzer)
Post #: 36
RE: cost of buying from matrix - 5/1/2009 11:17:34 AM   
killroyishere

 

Posts: 639
Joined: 4/23/2008
Status: offline 		Actually Matrixgames does have other distributers who may or may not use brick n mortar outlets for these products. Check out Amazon.com and you will see another distributers name instead of Matrixgames. NWS online is another outlet that sells their boxed games with manuals and cdroms for the same price as the download price from here with much less shipping and handling charges. Then of course there is ebay and there are a few foreign outlets that you can buy Matrixgames for 1/2 price of what they charge here like Witp for $36 or Crown of Glory for $14 things like that. These are foreign editions but still play with English language and the manuals are in English as well. You can get Matrixgames for much less if you just shop around the web.

(in reply to bink)
Post #: 37
RE: cost of buying from matrix - 5/1/2009 1:17:13 PM   
Erik Rutins

 

Posts: 33976
Joined: 3/28/2000
From: Vermont, USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: killroyishere
Then of course there is ebay and there are a few foreign outlets that you can buy Matrixgames for 1/2 price of what they charge here like Witp for $36 or Crown of Glory for $14 things like that. These are foreign editions but still play with English language and the manuals are in English as well.


Just FYI, the vast majority of those copies are not actually legit. Some are and a few of our titles went to retail which means they are out there at discount prices, but much of that comes from a Polish publisher who we had a limited deal with that only allowed them to sell in Poland. They went ahead and sold outside of Poland and past the timeline of the deal and we've had a heck of a time getting that shut down, though there's been some progress recently.


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Director of Product Development



For official support, please use our Help Desk: http://www.matrixgames.com/helpdesk/

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Post #: 38
RE: cost of buying from matrix - 5/1/2009 1:25:06 PM   
Erik Rutins

 

Posts: 33976
Joined: 3/28/2000
From: Vermont, USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: bink
1. Why don't you make the games more widely available in retail markets? I have not found your products at retail, whereas I have found those of other wargamer makers, such as HPS Simulations.


Retail just isn't what it used to be even five years ago. With that said, we've sent at least one game to retail every year, just to maintain a presence and introduce our games to customers who haven't found us online yet. We choose carefully which games we feel would do best in retail, since the retail market overall is not just tough for PC games, but especially tough for traditional PC strategy games. Which retail markets are you looking at that you don't see any of our games while you see other wargames?

quote:

2. What do you mean by secondary markets?


Basically, both dealers/redistributors and the process of reselling that goes on once a game is out there. Retail releases are much more prone to this, since retail stores tend to try to move through their stock quickly, so games that go to retail often end up discounted to budget bin prices, liquidated and re-sold at that level for years to come.

quote:

3. Why the emphasis on "legitimate" dealers you sell to - I assume it is a given you would not sell to illegitimate dealers?


See my comments above about the troubles we had with a Polish publisher. We've also seen some pirated copies show up on EBay from other areas.

quote:

4. Why not post a list of dealers on your website?


We're willing to sell to dealers, but we let them do their own promotion.

Regards,

- Erik

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Erik Rutins
Director of Product Development



For official support, please use our Help Desk: http://www.matrixgames.com/helpdesk/

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Post #: 39
RE: cost of buying from matrix - 5/1/2009 2:03:54 PM   
bink

 

Posts: 140
Joined: 12/3/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Erik Rutins

quote:

ORIGINAL: bink
1. Why don't you make the games more widely available in retail markets? I have not found your products at retail, whereas I have found those of other wargamer makers, such as HPS Simulations.


Retail just isn't what it used to be even five years ago. With that said, we've sent at least one game to retail every year, just to maintain a presence and introduce our games to customers who haven't found us online yet. We choose carefully which games we feel would do best in retail, since the retail market overall is not just tough for PC games, but especially tough for traditional PC strategy games. Which retail markets are you looking at that you don't see any of our games while you see other wargames?



For example, J&R Music World in NYC stocks a wide selection of HPS Titles - I was there yesterday and they had at least 8 different HPS games that I saw.


quote:

3. Why the emphasis on "legitimate" dealers you sell to - I assume it is a given you would not sell to illegitimate dealers?


quote:

ORIGINAL: Erik Rutins

See my comments above about the troubles we had with a Polish publisher. We've also seen some pirated copies show up on EBay from other areas.


Pirated copies have nothing to do with supplying dealers, "legitimate" or otherwise.

quote:

4. Why not post a list of dealers on your website?

quote:

ORIGINAL: Erik Rutins
We're willing to sell to dealers, but we let them do their own promotion.

That is different to the practices of most companies, and is also counter to your concern over "legitimate" dealers.

Firstly, it is a convenience to consumers to be able to look up where they can buy a product on the manufacturer's website. Secondly, it allows consumers to check whether the dealer they are considering a purchase from is a "legitimate" dealer.

I am not suggesting that you do promotions for companies that resell your products, but I do not consider listing dealers as really promoting them.

I would think it would be trivial for you to add a page to your website listing authorized distributors.

Doesn't it also protect you from rogue distributors, since customers can check before making a purchase?


(in reply to Erik Rutins)
Post #: 40
RE: cost of buying from matrix - 5/1/2009 2:16:57 PM   
Erik Rutins

 

Posts: 33976
Joined: 3/28/2000
From: Vermont, USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: bink
For example, J&R Music World in NYC stocks a wide selection of HPS Titles - I was there yesterday and they had at least 8 different HPS games that I saw.


That's more of a local dealer, I'm guessing they have some kind of direct arrangement with them. When it comes to the Best Buys and GameStops of the world, I'm guessing we've had more presence. I don't think HPS has actually released a game to "retail" in the normal sense, though I could be wrong, but I think they have a lot of dealers like J&R.

quote:

Pirated copies have nothing to do with supplying dealers, "legitimate" or otherwise.


I never said it had anything to do with supplying dealers, I said it had to do with why I used the word "legitimate". We have had problems with a few supposed "dealers" presenting themselves via E-Bay as legimitate sources of our games when they were not. I'm not talking about one or two copies of a game here either. Mind you, these are basically pirates. We have never had a problem with a legitimate dealer, in fact by and large it's been a pleasure doing business with them.

quote:

That is different to the practices of most companies, and is also counter to your concern over "legitimate" dealers.
Firstly, it is a convenience to consumers to be able to look up where they can buy a product on the manufacturer's website. Secondly, it allows consumers to check whether the dealer they are considering a purchase from is a "legitimate" dealer.
I am not suggesting that you do promotions for companies that resell your products, but I do not consider listing dealers as really promoting them.
I would think it would be trivial for you to add a page to your website listing authorized distributors.
Doesn't it also protect you from rogue distributors, since customers can check before making a purchase?


Some good points there, but it would not be a definitive list. In some cases we sell to dealers directly, in other cases we sell to pseudo-distributors who represent more than one dealer, so we don't really know in all cases exactly who is selling our games (though we know who we are selling them to), but we can in any instance check a copy to confirm whether it's legitimate or not if a customer has any concerns. While we could probably compile such a list for customers, it simply hasn't been a priority since the majority of our sales are direct and we're busy enough with direct customer and developer support and future development. We don't really have anyone devoted to dealer support/promotion as such, it's a shared responsibility.

Regards,

- Erik

< Message edited by Erik Rutins -- 5/1/2009 2:18:54 PM >

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For official support, please use our Help Desk: http://www.matrixgames.com/helpdesk/

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Post #: 41
RE: cost of buying from matrix - 5/1/2009 3:43:13 PM   
Prince of Eckmühl


Posts: 2456
Joined: 6/25/2006
From: Texas
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: animaluk

I cannot understand why your games are so exspensive. i have bought many of your titles but now paying £40 +tax here in the uk they just dont seem worth it.why so expesive what as changed.


I bought Grigsby's WtbS last week because it was on sale.

The publisher does that periodically.

PoE (aka ivanmoe)

BTW: These threads usually degenerate into a rant about the failure of Matrix to offer "bargain-bin" sales of their older titles for ninety-nine cents. What you wanna bet?

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Post #: 42
RE: cost of buying from matrix - 5/1/2009 4:51:00 PM   
JudgeDredd


Posts: 8564
Joined: 11/14/2003
From: Scotland
Status: offline 		What I don't understand is why Matrix don't do bargain bin sales of their older titles for around 99 cents?!!

Well covered Prince

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Post #: 43
RE: cost of buying from matrix - 5/1/2009 6:57:24 PM   
Arctic Blast


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quote:

ORIGINAL: JudgeDredd

What I don't understand is why Matrix don't do bargain bin sales of their older titles for around 99 cents?!!

Well covered Prince


99 Cents! Must be nice to be wealthy!



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Post #: 44
RE: cost of buying from matrix - 5/1/2009 7:11:07 PM   
PunkReaper


Posts: 1085
Joined: 8/23/2006
From: England
Status: offline 		Why don't matrix do bargain bin sales of say......... 98 cents to undercut other bargain bin sales.

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Post #: 45
RE: cost of buying from matrix - 5/1/2009 10:38:49 PM   
JudgeDredd


Posts: 8564
Joined: 11/14/2003
From: Scotland
Status: offline 		Yu've taken that too far Punk!

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Post #: 46
RE: cost of buying from matrix - 5/2/2009 12:56:03 AM   
Perturabo


Posts: 2519
Joined: 11/17/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Erik Rutins

Just FYI, the vast majority of those copies are not actually legit. Some are and a few of our titles went to retail which means they are out there at discount prices, but much of that comes from a Polish publisher who we had a limited deal with that only allowed them to sell in Poland. They went ahead and sold outside of Poland and past the timeline of the deal and we've had a heck of a time getting that shut down, though there's been some progress recently.


Did they intentionally publish them outside of Poland or was it because various stores that had the game sold their items abroad?

_____________________________

People shouldn't ask themselves why schools get shoot up.
They should ask themselves why people who finish schools burned out due to mobbing aren't receiving high enough compensations to not seek vengeance.

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Post #: 47
RE: cost of buying from matrix - 5/2/2009 4:27:10 AM   
Doggie


Posts: 3244
Joined: 9/19/2001
From: Under the porch
Status: offline 		Rutkins is obviously an evil capitalist who puts obscene profits over service to mankind. This sort of thinking is regressive and not in line with hope and change.



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Post #: 48
RE: cost of buying from matrix - 5/2/2009 5:30:51 AM   
06 Maestro


Posts: 3988
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From: Nevada, USA
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Doggie

Rutkins is obviously an evil capitalist who puts obscene profits over service to mankind. This sort of thinking is regressive and not in line with hope and change.




LOL-I bet you had to go to the principles office a lot when you were a kid. The spankings didn't really hurt though, I assume

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Post #: 49
RE: cost of buying from matrix - 5/2/2009 10:58:55 PM   
Perturabo


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Doggie

Rutkins is obviously an evil capitalist who puts obscene profits over service to mankind. This sort of thinking is regressive and not in line with hope and change.

Yeah, whatever. I'm still not buying unless I can buy for a more reasonable price.

Anyway, I bought myself a translation of a western military book - it was two times less expensive than the original book. They went as far as printing it in China to make the price more reasonable.

_____________________________

People shouldn't ask themselves why schools get shoot up.
They should ask themselves why people who finish schools burned out due to mobbing aren't receiving high enough compensations to not seek vengeance.

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Post #: 50
RE: cost of buying from matrix - 5/3/2009 12:30:16 AM   
bink

 

Posts: 140
Joined: 12/3/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Erik Rutins

quote:

ORIGINAL: bink
For example, J&R Music World in NYC stocks a wide selection of HPS Titles - I was there yesterday and they had at least 8 different HPS games that I saw.


That's more of a local dealer, I'm guessing they have some kind of direct arrangement with them. When it comes to the Best Buys and GameStops of the world, I'm guessing we've had more presence. I don't think HPS has actually released a game to "retail" in the normal sense, though I could be wrong, but I think they have a lot of dealers like J&R.



I think we have different definitions - I consider a high volume physical store as retail, but it sounds like yours is more exclusionary. What do you consider retail? How do you differentiate that from a dealer?

(in reply to Erik Rutins)
Post #: 51
RE: cost of buying from matrix - 5/3/2009 7:59:39 AM   
Zap


Posts: 3573
Joined: 12/6/2004
From: LAS VEGAS TAKE A CHANCE
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Prince of Eckmühl


quote:

ORIGINAL: animaluk

I cannot understand why your games are so exspensive. i have bought many of your titles but now paying £40 +tax here in the uk they just dont seem worth it.why so expesive what as changed.


I bought Grigsby's WtbS last week because it was on sale.

The publisher does that periodically.

PoE (aka ivanmoe)

BTW: These threads usually degenerate into a rant about the failure of Matrix to offer "bargain-bin" sales of their older titles for ninety-nine cents. What you wanna bet?


That won't happen because that particular carbon life form does not post here anymore.


< Message edited by Zap -- 5/3/2009 8:00:12 AM >

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Post #: 52
RE: cost of buying from matrix - 5/3/2009 8:35:46 AM   
D.Ilse


Posts: 330
Joined: 5/2/2009
From: Florahduh, yea that state.
Status: offline 		well I paid 60$ for my CC:TLD..DL and Box...pricey..yea I guess..but then it's the range of most new release consol games I think.

Playing I was kinda miffed at the shortness of the Camp to 3 days..even in the Customs..you can't go beyond the 9th...but being the first game I've purchased(I just haven't found anything that looked "good" til now) in a 6 month gap..although If I can get some good play time out of it..the 60$ will be well spent...PanzerCommand Kharkov wasn't..I played it for a few days and then tossed it on the shelf never to bother again with it.

Anyways ToW 2 is just as bad with it's limited window of a campaign to me, so between ToW 2 and CC TLD, I'm more "used" to the CC format over the fancy 3d stuff...not hating 3D..but combat missionx1 is about my level of 3D warfare...I know I am sounding old.

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Post #: 53
RE: cost of buying from matrix - 5/3/2009 3:58:58 PM   
Sarge


Posts: 2841
Joined: 3/1/2003
From: ask doggie
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Perturabo

Yeah, whatever. I'm still not buying unless I can buy for a more reasonable price.

Anyway, I bought myself a translation of a western military book - it was two times less expensive than the original book. They went as far as printing it in China to make the price more reasonable.



I hope your joking ,

I can’t see how your example above and your supporting Chinese knockoffs is beneficial, do you really think that’s a business template everyone should embrace ?

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Post #: 54
RE: cost of buying from matrix - 5/3/2009 4:48:46 PM   
Perturabo


Posts: 2519
Joined: 11/17/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sarge

I hope your joking ,

I can’t see how your example above and your supporting Chinese knockoffs is beneficial, do you really think that’s a business template everyone should embrace ?

Supporting Chinese knockoffs? What are you talking about?

Anyway, it is beneficial becuse it, like allows to actually sell books.

< Message edited by Perturabo -- 5/3/2009 5:20:46 PM >

_____________________________

People shouldn't ask themselves why schools get shoot up.
They should ask themselves why people who finish schools burned out due to mobbing aren't receiving high enough compensations to not seek vengeance.

(in reply to Sarge)
Post #: 55
RE: cost of buying from matrix - 5/3/2009 5:56:45 PM   
JudgeDredd


Posts: 8564
Joined: 11/14/2003
From: Scotland
Status: offline 		How is it a "chinese knockoff"? He "bought" a translation of a military book and the company printed it in China to save on cost...it's called business.

(in reply to Perturabo)
Post #: 56
RE: cost of buying from matrix - 5/3/2009 6:30:02 PM   
Perturabo


Posts: 2519
Joined: 11/17/2007
Status: offline 		Anyway, it's the first time I saw a book printed in China, but taking in account that somehow novels end up costing the same as in Western Europe and more expensive than in US despite much lower work costs, outsourcing printing to China sounds reasonable. At least for novels, which while affordable, are still rather expensive - an average novel costs 6 minimal hourly wages - for some weird reason, sometimes importing novels from US is less expensive than buying translations O_o .
Military/military history books manage to be ~2 times less expensive than English version even when printed in Poland, but it may be because their price is less driven by printing costs.


_____________________________

People shouldn't ask themselves why schools get shoot up.
They should ask themselves why people who finish schools burned out due to mobbing aren't receiving high enough compensations to not seek vengeance.

(in reply to JudgeDredd)
Post #: 57
RE: cost of buying from matrix - 5/3/2009 8:42:52 PM   
Erik Rutins

 

Posts: 33976
Joined: 3/28/2000
From: Vermont, USA
Status: offline 		I think Sarge was suggesting that it was unlikely the original author of that book actually authorized the Chinese version you purchased or got any money from the sale, given the lack of IP respect in China overall. No way to prove that, of course but it's worth keeping in mind.

< Message edited by Erik Rutins -- 5/3/2009 8:43:12 PM >

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Erik Rutins
Director of Product Development



For official support, please use our Help Desk: http://www.matrixgames.com/helpdesk/

Freedom is not Free.

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Post #: 58
RE: cost of buying from matrix - 5/3/2009 10:13:09 PM   
Sarge


Posts: 2841
Joined: 3/1/2003
From: ask doggie
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: JudgeDredd

How is it a "chinese knockoff"? He "bought" a translation of a military book and the company printed it in China to save on cost...it's called business.

Seriously JD ,

Are you really agreeing that Perturabo’s ”Chinese knockoff ” is one our hobby and Matrix should follow ?...........................



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Post #: 59
RE: cost of buying from matrix - 5/3/2009 11:03:56 PM   
bink

 

Posts: 140
Joined: 12/3/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Sarge

Seriously JD ,

Are you really agreeing that Perturabo’s ”Chinese knockoff ” is one our hobby and Matrix should follow ?...........................




Sarge,

I don't see anything in the prior discussion that suggests that Perturabo's book is a "Chinese knockoff".

Why are you asserting that anything made in China, in the absence of other evidence, is a knock-off?


(in reply to Sarge)
Post #: 60
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