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Holy Hell, hate to be this crew! - 4/1/2009 4:50:45 PM   
Misconduct


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From: Cape Canaveral, Florida
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I am currently upgrading my carriers, so my offense has stopped until refits are, however I slowly let Rubaul build then send over a mass formation of B-24's - here's what happens.

Day Air attack on Rabaul , at 61,88


Allied aircraft
P-38G Lightning x 72
B-24D Liberator x 259


Allied aircraft losses
B-24D Liberator: 3 damaged

Japanese Ships
BB Mutsu, Bomb hits 199, on fire
AP Takayo Maru, Bomb hits 3, on fire, heavy damage
CA Kinugasa, Bomb hits 18, on fire
AP Oyo Maru, Bomb hits 2, on fire, heavy damage
AO Ondo, Bomb hits 1, on fire, heavy damage
AK Nittatsu Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire, heavy damage
TK Manei Maru, Bomb hits 4, on fire, heavy damage
AP Kyushu Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire, heavy damage
AP Tango Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire, heavy damage
AP Haguro Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire, heavy damage
AP Otori Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire, heavy damage

Japanese ground losses:
4209 casualties reported
Guns lost 21

Port hits 17
Port supply hits 21

199 Bomb hits!?!?! I would seriously hate to be a crew member on that ship and looking upward to those bombs dropping. Sadly I doubt she's going to sink, most were 500lb's due to Port Attack.
Post #: 1
RE: Holy Hell, hate to be this crew! - 4/1/2009 4:55:45 PM   
rjopel

 

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Oh the pounding in my head.......


Will it ever stop.

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RE: Holy Hell, hate to be this crew! - 4/1/2009 5:04:34 PM   
Canoerebel


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Port supply kinda got torched, too.

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RE: Holy Hell, hate to be this crew! - 4/1/2009 5:20:42 PM   
RUPD3658


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Misconduct


Japanese Ships
BB Mutsu, Bomb hits 199, on fire


Gee, not even "Heavy damage"

You would think that she would have sunk from the extra weight and that the crew would be dead from the concusion.


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Post #: 4
RE: Holy Hell, hate to be this crew! - 4/1/2009 5:30:12 PM   
Misconduct


Posts: 1864
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From: Cape Canaveral, Florida
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quote:

ORIGINAL: RUPD3658


quote:

ORIGINAL: Misconduct


Japanese Ships
BB Mutsu, Bomb hits 199, on fire


Gee, not even "Heavy damage"

You would think that she would have sunk from the extra weight and that the crew would be dead from the concusion.



Yeah to make it worse, I did 3 raids on Rubaul, each had over 185 Bombs hit the Mutsu, last raid was 241 bombs, and still not even "Heavy Damage" only she's on fire.

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Post #: 5
RE: Holy Hell, hate to be this crew! - 4/1/2009 5:38:20 PM   
John Lansford

 

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Considering how Nagato was turned into a burned out shell by far fewer bomb hits in 1945, in your game Mutsu should be stripped of everything above the armored deck and outside the armor belts by now.  Bow/stern blown off, superstructure gone, secondary/AAA weapons destroyed, just a bridge structure, main gun turrets and the armored box of the hull left.

However, what's probably happened is she has about 25 System damage, perhaps some secondary/AAA guns destroyed, and capable of at least 2/3 her usual speed.  In my game Mutsu is performing the same function, only at Kwajalein; four carriers' worth of Dauntless attacks gained about 50 hits on her while I was invading Eniwetok.

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RE: Holy Hell, hate to be this crew! - 4/1/2009 5:47:26 PM   
Misconduct


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Oh man that sucks, I fired all the B-24 commanders in hoping to get them to arm 1,000lb bombs for once, Sadly with moral being around 50-60% Its not likely to do much period, aircrew skill wise around 65-70, however I am not really looking to sink any capitol ships, its the support ships that are taking a serious toll, I have around 150 AK/Tankers sank so far around Rubaul alone. the magic 8-ball says "Highly Unlikely" I will sink anything bigger then a CA.
Hell even the CA Kinugasa has around 20 bomb hits per turn, still is only "on fire" and not heavy damage.

This is first time I had all my B24 crews over at Moresby, usually half are spent in Cooktown resting and gaining moral, other half flying combat missions keeping the airfields/ports shut down. I was just curious what 250+ B-24's would do to an airfield/port, most airfields get around 90% damage done on 1 pass.

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Post #: 7
RE: Holy Hell, hate to be this crew! - 4/1/2009 6:03:27 PM   
Shark7


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Here's a thread I had a while back about an American BB taking over 200 250kg bomb hits.

http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=1968194&mpage=1&key=�

Only in this case it happened at sea and the ship eventually burned out and sank.

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RE: Holy Hell, hate to be this crew! - 4/1/2009 7:09:22 PM   
Dili

 

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WITP hit model ...enough said. Lets hope that AE is better.

WITP damage model ...enough said. Lets hope that AE is better.

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Post #: 9
RE: Holy Hell, hate to be this crew! - 4/1/2009 8:58:26 PM   
wild_Willie2


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The ironic part, a few patches ago the dauntless got the ability to drop 1000lbs AP bombs in order for them to damage BB's. Only problem is that the 1000lb AP penetration value is smaller than BB deck armour so these bombs are just MORE pingpong balls ......

Same goes for 2000lb AP bombs dropped by 4E bombers... I have seen about 5-6 hits by these on BB's and NONE penetrated

< Message edited by wild_Willie2 -- 4/1/2009 9:00:01 PM >


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RE: Holy Hell, hate to be this crew! - 4/1/2009 9:06:01 PM   
Misconduct


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LOL I did 5 more 280+ B-24 runs to Mutsu and finally got "heavy damage" on her after repeated 250+ bomb hits. Just kidding, it was 10 SBD's that dropped 4x 1000lb bombs that got her to "heavy damage" followed by the almost 300 B-24's that ping ponged her.

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RE: Holy Hell, hate to be this crew! - 4/1/2009 9:09:14 PM   
rtrapasso


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Misconduct

LOL I did 5 more 280+ B-24 runs to Mutsu and finally got "heavy damage" on her after repeated 250+ bomb hits. Just kidding, it was 10 SBD's that dropped 4x 1000lb bombs that got her to "heavy damage" followed by the almost 300 B-24's that ping ponged her.


Interesting... in the bad old days, WITP surface combat would sometimes get into a loop... one CL pounded the Yamato with 6" guns... nothing penetrated, but after 200 rounds Yamato sank! i would expect 500 pound bombs would do something similar...

how big a port is this the Mutsu is in? If it is a size 9 or 10, you might have quite a chore trying to sink her.

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Post #: 12
RE: Holy Hell, hate to be this crew! - 4/1/2009 9:31:16 PM   
Misconduct


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quote:

ORIGINAL: rtrapasso


quote:

ORIGINAL: Misconduct

LOL I did 5 more 280+ B-24 runs to Mutsu and finally got "heavy damage" on her after repeated 250+ bomb hits. Just kidding, it was 10 SBD's that dropped 4x 1000lb bombs that got her to "heavy damage" followed by the almost 300 B-24's that ping ponged her.


Interesting... in the bad old days, WITP surface combat would sometimes get into a loop... one CL pounded the Yamato with 6" guns... nothing penetrated, but after 200 rounds Yamato sank! i would expect 500 pound bombs would do something similar...

how big a port is this the Mutsu is in? If it is a size 9 or 10, you might have quite a chore trying to sink her.


Its rubaul so I would guess size 9, I am not worried about sinking her really, she's heavily damaged and not going anywhere, I am basically wasting time till my carriers can get refitted and out to sea, then will see about her being sunk faster

Its amazing how even a repair yard can keep her afloat so long even after AF/port are both 100% damaged, you would assume it would stop repairing ships, however it doesn't.

(in reply to rtrapasso)
Post #: 13
RE: Holy Hell, hate to be this crew! - 4/1/2009 11:25:52 PM   
Ron Saueracker


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It's the BOINK TM damage model. Oh, and crews are not modelled.


Had to pipe up, it was a griper's wet dream.

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Post #: 14
RE: Holy Hell, hate to be this crew! - 4/2/2009 1:48:16 AM   
Misconduct


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I can't complain about the damage model, WiTP is probably one of the best games on the market hands down, a few bugs doesn't bother me its games that are mostly incomplete.
Seriously I played many games over the years, and I can think of few that can compete with WiTP on an "operational scale"

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Post #: 15
RE: Holy Hell, hate to be this crew! - 4/2/2009 2:23:16 AM   
Misconduct


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So I tally up the last few combat reports, Mutsu was hit by 1359 bombs, most are 500lb's dropped by B-24s, and a few were dropped by SBD's operating close from Shortland island. What happen? Mutsu steamed off into the sun towards Truk, then bolted back towards Japan.

My next question is how the hell can you execute the leaders? Its not really a game mechanic problem, most of my aircrew's moral are 50-60 I guess which is to low to fly with 1,000 bombs, unless its because of the range, anyhow I say we need a Stalin button in AE to purge the commander if needed

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Post #: 16
RE: Holy Hell, hate to be this crew! - 4/2/2009 2:55:54 AM   
RUPD3658


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Many of us have asked for an "Execute leader" button. It would lower morale but improve performance.

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Post #: 17
RE: Holy Hell, hate to be this crew! - 4/2/2009 11:26:20 AM   
John Lansford

 

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You can always replace unit leaders, you just might not get any better results with the new guy.  Other than for SW TF's, I've not seen much difference in one leader to another for such things as HQ's and LCU's.  Subs definitely perform better with aggressive commanders, and TF's are slightly more likely to react with an aggressive CO, but that's about it.

Has anyone left Short or Kimmel in command of CentPac HQ to see if it made any difference?

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Post #: 18
RE: Holy Hell, hate to be this crew! - 4/2/2009 12:26:32 PM   
Odin


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Nice results. I wanted to do this with Truk, but its out of P-38 range, unfortunately.

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RE: Holy Hell, hate to be this crew! - 4/2/2009 1:57:53 PM   
Misconduct


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Odin

Nice results. I wanted to do this with Truk, but its out of P-38 range, unfortunately.


I am about to have Operation Hailstone in effect soon, 4 CV and 4 CVE's are doing the attack, basically they are going to bombard for 2 turns then retire north to help with a Guam landing.

(in reply to Odin)
Post #: 20
RE: Holy Hell, hate to be this crew! - 4/2/2009 2:15:50 PM   
Misconduct


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she finally sinks!! Also another BB That took 5 turns to finish off.
BB Mutsu    Sunk Turn 145    Rabaul   500 lb GP Bomb
BB Yamashiro   Sunk Turn 150    Rabaul    500 lb GP Bomb

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RE: Holy Hell, hate to be this crew! - 4/2/2009 2:44:54 PM   
John Lansford

 

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Probably capsized from the weight of all those bomb fragments sitting on the deck of the ship...

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RE: Holy Hell, hate to be this crew! - 4/2/2009 7:25:33 PM   
reg113


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RE: Holy Hell, hate to be this crew! - 4/2/2009 8:20:33 PM   
Dili

 

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This thing is a deal breaker for me. It breaks all game, turning it into a farse. The aircraft goes to 10000ft or 20000ft? what it matters you can put 500 bombs in a Battleships and she is still around to play...

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RE: Holy Hell, hate to be this crew! - 4/3/2009 2:51:50 AM   
Charles2222


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quote:

ORIGINAL: RUPD3658


Many of us have asked for an "Execute leader" button. It would lower morale but improve performance.
A 'walk the plank' option would work just as well.

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RE: Holy Hell, hate to be this crew! - 4/3/2009 3:21:53 AM   
Anthropoid


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So what is the story here? I just watched Tom's Royal Navy thread, and it said that the armored decks on the RN ships the Kamikaze's would bounce off (more or less). I would guess a kamikaze would have at least 500 lbs of explosives packed into it, eh?

But granted, ~150 500lbs bombs hitting during one engagement would surely do something?

So what would be most realistic? An algorithm in which any bomb would have some chance to cause some sort of crippling damage? One in which crew loses progressively made a ship unable to operate?

As a WWII history buff-groupie, not a true expert, I guess what I'm asking is this: is it TOTALLY unrealistic that BB Mutsu would take 199 fairly light bomb hits and still sail away to get fixed? Or is it highly unrealistic? Or is it just somewhat unrealistic? Or is it even only slighly unrealistic?

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RE: Holy Hell, hate to be this crew! - 4/3/2009 10:18:37 AM   
Dili

 

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"it said that the armored decks on the RN ships the Kamikaze's would bounce off (more or less)."

No. It damaged much more but wasn't catstrophic.

"is it TOTALLY unrealistic that BB Mutsu would take 199 fairly light bomb hits and still sail away to get fixed? Or is it highly unrealistic? Or is it just somewhat unrealistic? Or is it even only slighly unrealistic?"

First of all it is tottaly unrealistic that so many planes at same time can hit so many times a ship. If you have 260 planes and have a frontage of 10 then only at best 26 have a chance to hit and of that only a couple of bombs will hit. Of course if they go all in an chain 260 can hit it but is unrealistic.

Second 199x500lb bombs are not fairly light, a filling of maybe 100kg of TNT would wreak a building. So it would wreak all upper works of a ship, will hit all anti aircraft guns, detonate all AA amno around, flotplanes and its fuel will spread fires everywhere before 50 hits. Admiral would probably dead or seriously injured if not inside the conning tower , captain and officials would be lucky if alive. Funnels would be blocked or destroyed. Smoke and debris and eventually fire goes trough ventilation. etc etc. Outside the armored box if its structure assuming dubiously it can sustain repeated shocks would be complete hell.

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RE: Holy Hell, hate to be this crew! - 4/3/2009 3:22:51 PM   
Yamato hugger

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Dili

"it said that the armored decks on the RN ships the Kamikaze's would bounce off (more or less)."

No. It damaged much more but wasn't catstrophic.

"is it TOTALLY unrealistic that BB Mutsu would take 199 fairly light bomb hits and still sail away to get fixed? Or is it highly unrealistic? Or is it just somewhat unrealistic? Or is it even only slighly unrealistic?"

First of all it is tottaly unrealistic that so many planes at same time can hit so many times a ship. If you have 260 planes and have a frontage of 10 then only at best 26 have a chance to hit and of that only a couple of bombs will hit. Of course if they go all in an chain 260 can hit it but is unrealistic.

Second 199x500lb bombs are not fairly light, a filling of maybe 100kg of TNT would wreak a building. So it would wreak all upper works of a ship, will hit all anti aircraft guns, detonate all AA amno around, flotplanes and its fuel will spread fires everywhere before 50 hits. Admiral would probably dead or seriously injured if not inside the conning tower , captain and officials would be lucky if alive. Funnels would be blocked or destroyed. Smoke and debris and eventually fire goes trough ventilation. etc etc. Outside the armored box if its structure assuming dubiously it can sustain repeated shocks would be complete hell.


Thats the thing that boggles my mind. People whine that 199 "hits" didnt do much to her, but 232 out of 259 hits is just fine with them. All together now:

Edit: Oops, forgot about the port hits. 270 hits out of 259 bombers and Mutsu lived. Oh darn!

And people wonder why I flat refuse to allow 4E bombers on naval attack.

< Message edited by Yamato hugger -- 4/3/2009 3:26:41 PM >


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Post #: 28
RE: Holy Hell, hate to be this crew! - 4/3/2009 3:24:47 PM   
Misconduct


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From: Cape Canaveral, Florida
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Dili

"it said that the armored decks on the RN ships the Kamikaze's would bounce off (more or less)."

No. It damaged much more but wasn't catstrophic.

"is it TOTALLY unrealistic that BB Mutsu would take 199 fairly light bomb hits and still sail away to get fixed? Or is it highly unrealistic? Or is it just somewhat unrealistic? Or is it even only slighly unrealistic?"

First of all it is tottaly unrealistic that so many planes at same time can hit so many times a ship. If you have 260 planes and have a frontage of 10 then only at best 26 have a chance to hit and of that only a couple of bombs will hit. Of course if they go all in an chain 260 can hit it but is unrealistic.

Second 199x500lb bombs are not fairly light, a filling of maybe 100kg of TNT would wreak a building. So it would wreak all upper works of a ship, will hit all anti aircraft guns, detonate all AA amno around, flotplanes and its fuel will spread fires everywhere before 50 hits. Admiral would probably dead or seriously injured if not inside the conning tower , captain and officials would be lucky if alive. Funnels would be blocked or destroyed. Smoke and debris and eventually fire goes trough ventilation. etc etc. Outside the armored box if its structure assuming dubiously it can sustain repeated shocks would be complete hell.


Well its not clear "how" many bombs it took to actually sink Mutsu, I just know how many it took to finally sink her. Granted my argument is this - even with a repair dock at a level 9 port - if the Port is 100% damaged no ship shall be repaired, and surely not be able to survive period. Also even with a ship thats docked you still shouldn't beable to hit her with 200 bombs from 300 planes, thats pretty much unrealistic. I base that argument on fact it took hundreds of bombers to target refinaries and factories in germany, and I can't think of the percentage on top of my head, but were talking under 10% actually had bombs hit the buildings - let alone a ship.

(in reply to Dili)
Post #: 29
RE: Holy Hell, hate to be this crew! - 4/5/2009 12:13:53 AM   
LargeSlowTarget


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WitP uses laser-guided bombs (Allies only) . The real thing to whine about should be "B-24D Liberator x 259"? Even in the heaviest all-out raids against Rabaul the Allies managed only to send about 90 4E-bombers.  But well, I'm just a JFB

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