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Why CoG:EE Is A Solid 8/10 Game

 
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Why CoG:EE Is A Solid 8/10 Game - 3/26/2009 9:15:47 AM   
barbarossa2

 

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Crown of Glory: Emperor's Edition-A Solid 8/10
This post is really intended for people peeking into this forum to determine whether or not to buy Crown of Glory: Emperor's Edition by WCS. To those people, I have to say that I have played a lot of Napoleonic games in my day, but Crown of Glory: Emperor's Edition by WCS is by far and away the most satisfying. Here is why...

1. The number of diplomatic options is simply stunning
+Incredible peace treaty systems bypass the painfully simplified Parker Brothers Risk system and Total War: Empire conquest rules (you take it, it is yours)
+The way protectorates are formed and managed is simply impressive. I have been amazed to see diplomatic fortunes change as protectorates are formed if a player gets too aggressive in regions.
+Napoleonic fans have never had these kinds of options in any game. It is "next gen" diplo.
-Sometimes the treaty system doesn't seem to work well with ceding provences. WCS staff has told me they are working on some issues with this. (for an example, see my post on Problems with Poland)
-There could be a few more options for treaties (for instance, forcing someone to declare war on France if France attacks you, instead of just anyone...or specifying that someone need to declare war on France ONLY if France has declared war on you herself--because at the moment, you can declare war on someone and drag others with you). It would also be nice to be able to specify who will pay the bill when one nation uses another's depots. However, complaining about a lack of options here is like looking a gift horse in the mouth.
-It would be nice if we could make treaties with minor nations as well as major ones.

2. The march and simultaneous movement style is satisfying
+A system which uses army and leader initiative to determine if units can move from one region to the next works well and is exciting at times.
+Winter is addressed in a very satisfying manner, this often is lacking totally in other games. I love getting caught in a winter region in a snow storm. It makes playing in winter a very exciting thing.
-It might be nice to have some kind of "interception movement" option so that there aren't as many turns spent "dancing" with your enemy trying to move to contact.

3. Access to the conflicts of 1792-1804!
+Many wonderful new scenarios which allow players to computer game conflicts which they have never had access to! How refreshing it is to be able to play as revolutionary France as Prussia and Austria try to shove your king back down your throat in 1792! The whole thing comes complete with an Austrian Netherlands! This finally allows players to fight conflicts which resulted in many large and significant battles of the time, including the campaign by France against Austria, culminating in the battle of Hohenlinden in Dec 1800, with over 50,000 French fighting 55,000 Austrians, deciding the fate of Bavaria.

4. Political events and historical events!
+WCS has entered over 100 events for players to better experience the turmoil of this revolutionary era in European history, often giving players a choice as to what to do. You have never played napoleonics like this. By doing this, WCS dealt with my biggest complaint about all Napoleonic games.
-Sometimes these event dialog boxes have far too little text in them. Especially when players have to make decisions and choose a course of action, I would like to have more information about what the event was. WCS staff has told me they are working on this.

5. "Detailed" economy
+CoG:EE gives players economics like no other Napoleonic wargame ever has. The Continental blockade and system actually make sense now with fleets actually able to blockade trade routes via sea.
+You can set your draft ages and training time of your recruits to affect morale of your armies.
+You can set tax rates
+You can adjust feudal levels of your nation, which has effects on how you raise troops and earn money and waste money.
+A good "happiness" system which takes all kinds of things into account. If your happiness drops too much, your ability to wage war is hampered as more and more revolts occur and you might even be forced to surrender to your opponents due to insurrectionists.
-It seems that some players would like to be able to tell their provences not to raise feudal levies to save money. I think this is a good idea, but it is not an option yet.
-(in my opinion) a weak "mobilization limit" system constrains player's actions in some important ways (see my other post: Mobilization Limit Issues)
-At times the trade system is a bit frustrating (for instance, when trading, all trades must go directly between exactly two provences and if your provence doesn't have money as one of its top 4 resources, you can't offer it to sweeten a deal).

6. Warfare experience system
+Nations can purchase strategic, tactical, and naval advantages and advances in doctrine with points earned in campaigns and even from military losses (learning your lessons the hard way). It is a wonderful system which adds tremendously to the enjoyment of the game.
-The only minus I can think of here with this is that it might have been a good idea to allow for nations to "unlearn" some of this for some of the longer scenarios. To allow them to become sloppy. Napoleon III's French army wasn't nearly as drilled or capable as Napoleon's 1809 army. However, this is a minor, minor, minor complaint and it works well within the framework of the presented scenarios.

7. Adequate to good AI
+In roughly ten days of very heavy play, I haven't seen the AI do anything horribly unrealistic yet.
-However, I do think that the navies of minor powers tend to wander the seas somewhat energetically and think this could be toned down, perhaps spending some time in port once in a while.

8. PBEM is wonderful
+A simultaneous move PBEM allows human players to reach out beyond the challenges of what any AI can provide. Simultaneous is nice because people can open the file, take their turns, and send them to a single central processor (one player playing the game usually) who then combines the files and sends out the new turn file to everyone.
-I have had an issue with trading resources in PBEM which have caused my CTDs. However, this problem appears to go away if I reboot and do my moves immediately upon boot up and before I load any other application.

9. Map
+Most of the game is played on a beautiful map of 18th/19th century Europe which someone at WCS has figured out how to combine with satellite images to delightful effect! Certainly one of the better maps I have seen in some time.
-Because of the fact that regions must be of a minimum size, some of them are overly distored in my opinion, leaving places like Switzerland out of place and odd looking. France is perhaps too skinny as well. However, it doesn't take long to realize much of the map is compressed and distorted where needed and you learn to live with it.
-Sometimes it is hard to tell certain kinds of units apart on the map. For instance, some ship types are virtually indistinguishable from each other, even when viewing the fleets. And it took quite some time to figure out the system where by "loose" infantry units look more and more powerful as you add them to the region (for one infantry unit, a man stands there in his casual wear, if you have two present, he gets a gun and hat). I believe there is a similar system for ships at sea, but I have yet to really grasp it.

10. Interface (menus, control panel, etc.)
+While the interface isn't exactly the zenith of graphic or functional design, in most cases, it doesn't take long to figure out where everything is and how it should be used.
+The interface works most of the time (only a couple of minor issues have popped up on the trade screen for me)
-In some places, there are some tricks that you have to learn to get through the game (for instance, on the economy/trade screen you need to learn with some experimentation that you have entered the trade by hitting "propose trade" and can then propose a new one without hitting "okay", or that you can retract your current trade proposal by hitting the name of the regions you have already activated).
-Once in a while the arrow buttons for increasing and decreasing amounts of good traded are difficult to get to work or entirely too slow (it takes too long to get from 1 unit to 10 units).
-Finding the menu from which to turn conquests into protectorates or liberate them took me more than a little effort.

11. Relatively few bugs
+I have been able to play several games by myself without any serious issues and after 10 days of heavy play have experienced only 2 CTDs and one lost game (regular saving might have prevented this). It seems that by playing the game immediately after boot up, I have eliminated these problems.
-Initially I thought there were almost no other bugs, but the more I play, of course, the more I discover (see my Polish War Problems/Bug thread for instance).
-I am sure by the time the first patch has been issued, the game will be up to 9/10 for Napoleonic Wargaming fans.

12. Manual
+The manual is attractive, mostly well written, and helps get a player on the path of learning CoG:EE, but lots of learning will be done in game, and visits to the forums are a good idea. Especially for the areas of the rules which are not so well explained (for instance naval supply).
+Another super feature are the video tutorials which provide a brand new player fresh in off the street with a fantastic hour long overview of where everything is at, making getting into the game within 60-90 minutes entirely possible (but not easy). However, if I wanted a simple game, I would be playing Halo 3 again.

13. Soundtrack
+The music in CoG:EE is great. It is basically a blend of 60-90 minutes of randomly played 19th and 18th century classical music (lots of wonderfully played early 18th century Vivaldi's four seasons, which is rather out of place in terms of the era, but who cares). 90% of the tracks are extremely well done and top quality. One of the guitar pieces always leaves me wondering what it is and by who it is. I would like to get my hands on more like it.
-Two tracks leave me wondering. One of those two questionable tracks is a version of the Marseillaise which sounds like it was played on a Casio keyboard found at a garage sale (I just discovered it is the version posted in the commons at Wikipedia). One other track sounds like someone who hasn't quite come to grips with a piano is having a go at it. But on the whole, it is a wonderful sound track which enriches your game experience. I would however, say that after hearing the 1812 Overture 100 times, it is time to turn off the sound and dig out some of your own classical music to play in the background.

14. Tactical Resolution System
+The game features the ability to resolve each land battle and tactical battle on a "zoom in" map (randomly generated for each battle). Though I do not play these battles personally (I always use "instant resolve"), I have heard from others they are enjoyable and engaging and feel they need to be mentioned here.

15. Most of it makes sense
+As a 41 year old with over 30 boxes of books on military history and military science (including titles covering obscure and "boring" topics such as logistics) and 25 or more years of gaming experience I have to say, yes, 90% of the game makes sense to me and is well thought out, which is all I can ask of any release. What follows is a list of some things which I might have designed differently, if I had unlimited capital. This is all purely subjective and anyone might disagree with these points. They are in italics, and for those not interested, they can skip right to the end, or stop reading now:
-Mobilization limits kind of bother me and set unrealistic "hard walls" for players in my opinion
-Conquering a Poland which is someone else's protectorate seems to be a war of exermination (see my Polish War Problems/bug post)
-The forced evacuation of your forces following a surrender is a bit contentious and problematic. In my opinion and the opinion of some others, a victor's units should be allowed to stay in a nation after the surrender and simply immediately shift the player to a state of violating the loser's neutrality.
-Seems in hotseat mode (where more than one player plays a game from one computer), that the messages to individual nations need to be more clearly marked as to who they are for. In many cases a room with three or four players will get messages like, "We declared war on Russia", "France declared war on us", "Insurrectionists force us to surrender to Austria" and no one knows who they are directed at. Could be fixed by adding a flag to each and every message which pops up.
-There is no "turn replay" in PBEM mode.
-Minor neutral nation fleets seem to bounce around too far and too much
-A port or naval base like Gibraltar doesn't seem to give its nation's ships operating in the area enough of an advantage. Or rather, operating far away from these points doesn't seem to penalize a navy enough. Blockading an enemy port for months took supplies and the closer you were to a port/base the more time more of your ships could spend "on target".
-The interest rate a nation is charged on its loans is purely a function of how many wars it has been involved in (I believe). Having taken a full college course on Enlightenment Era Economics, it would have made more sense to link this to whether a player had defaulted on a loan or not and how much money is in circulation and perhaps a little random fluctuation--keeping it independent of the number of wars which have been fought. One could get more involved than that, but I don't think you have to as these factors probably account for 90% of the variation in rates.
-There is a little Empire flip flopping. That is, when a player hits 20 "Empire Points" he can declare himself an Empire. If it drops to 19 next turn, he is already not an empire again. A subsequent rise of 1 point and he is an Empire again. It seems it would be better to give someone the option of being an Empire at 21 points and taking it away at 18, so that it wouldn't cycle as quickly and allow for minor hiccups.
-Perhaps some of the bad weather systems (rain) could be larger. Seems often only one provence is affected, when perhaps 2, 3, or even rarely 6, or 8 adjacent regions could be affected by a major storm front in a month. THIS would be interesting.
-Seems that bad weather should sink ships. I am currently reading, "The War for All the Oceans" by Adkins, and there is a litany of ships which ran aground or were outright sunk by bad weather while on convoy duty or on blockade duty (especially hazardous because they could not seek shelter if they were to maintain the blockade).
-Swedish Pomerania is not represented, which was to Sweden what Gibraltar was to Britain.
-CoG:EE uses an area movement system, in which one area is always one "movement point" away, regardless of its size or distance in real life (though my quick description is a drastic over simplification of the CoG:EE system as different types of terrain can lower the likelihood of movement to new regions). However, I would have preferred a system which charges miles/kilometers between the capitol city of each region against the unit and then reduces initiative to make the next move based on how many miles it has already marched. This would prevent units in Russia from covering 2-3 times as much distance in a month as they do in Germany. But that is a whole different story.
-If I would have designed the game, I would have provided players 5 times as many merchant ships and divided each ship's potential income by 5. This would have allowed players to spread risks and rewards around more evenly.
-Sometimes enemy generals tend to linger around your country even after you have come to conclude a peace with them. Minor nation generals too. If this is by design, I like it. If it isn't, WCS should be made aware of it.
-In the doctrinal experience system listed above, according to the rules, the first loss of yours in a war to another country gets you 300 experience points, after that, losing is worth significantly less. In my opinion, they should always be the same. Or better yet, a random number between say, 80 and 160.


I had another major Napoleonic gaming buff come over so I could show him this game which has dropped into our world and we did a hot seat game for two days. From the sound of things, he will be picking up a copy in the next couple of days. As well as several of his friends (as soon as the first patch is out).

CoG:EE has been such a find for me, that I decided to postpone or entirely cancel my purchase of Total War: Empire. Having played and very much enjoyed the other Total War titles, I am sure that the strategic end of that game will be weak in comparison to the feast which WCS has offered us here. While not hitting the level of "simulation of napoleonic Europe", it is a good GAME of napoleonic Europe. I recommend any Napoleonics fan give this a try. By the time the first patch is out, it should be a 9/10 and something I would HIGHLY recommend to any good friend. :) In a few months, I may even pick up Forge of Freedom.

The above information was made based on about 10 days of heavy play. If any of this is incorrect, please inform me and I will gladly change it. All of it is presented as pure opinion, nothing as fact.

< Message edited by barbarossa2 -- 5/5/2009 5:55:14 PM >
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RE: Why CoG:EE Is A Solid 8/10 Game - 3/26/2009 12:53:33 PM   
Krasny

 

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You may wish to read this review before buying E:TW:

[url]http://www.crispygamer.com/gamereviews/2009-03-17/empire-total-war-pc.aspx[/url]

Some salient quotes from the piece.....

quote:

It is also a terrible mess from start to finish that makes me wonder if developer Creative Assembly has contempt for its fan base and utter disregard for everyone else. But I'll get to that in a moment.


quote:

The wretched documentation is the earliest problem with Empire: Total War, but it is by no means its biggest or longest problem. Instead, once again, Creative Assembly has made a game that its AI cannot play.


quote:

It seems that many of the game's features simply aren't used by the AI. Perhaps the most glaring omission is that the AI can't move armies across water, which makes life as the British Empire particularly easy.





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RE: Why CoG:EE Is A Solid 8/10 Game - 3/26/2009 12:56:57 PM   
barbarossa2

 

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Krasny,

LOL

Thanks. I will definitely be waiting for the second patch before I buy Total War: Empire. I generally only play their tactical combat system in multi player anyway.

-B

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RE: Why CoG:EE Is A Solid 8/10 Game - 3/26/2009 2:03:54 PM   
AminMaalouf

 

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The review is a bit harsh. I have played it. It's in many respect better than previous TW games. CoG:EE is another pair of shoe as a genuine war game and it is on my wish list when there is some money left.

Thanks Barbarossa 2 for your professional comments on CoG:EE. Definitively helpful stuff!

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RE: Why CoG:EE Is A Solid 8/10 Game - 3/26/2009 2:15:13 PM   
barbarossa2

 

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AminMalouf, you meant the Total War:Empire review which Krasny referred to was harsh...right? 

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RE: Why CoG:EE Is A Solid 8/10 Game - 3/26/2009 2:32:30 PM   
AminMaalouf

 

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The reviewer on crispygamer is a bit harsh when he proposes "to fry it".

< Message edited by AminMaalouf -- 3/26/2009 2:38:07 PM >

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RE: Why CoG:EE Is A Solid 8/10 Game - 3/26/2009 2:51:26 PM   
barbarossa2

 

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Amin,

I agree with the crispy gamer's view on the AI for Total War.  I have always been disappointed by it.  Both on the campaign map and in battle.

I have really almost switched to PBEM/Live Internet Play for everything now and view the pre-packaged AI as just a training device for the real thing.

-B

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RE: Why CoG:EE Is A Solid 8/10 Game - 3/26/2009 2:58:10 PM   
sol_invictus


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Excellent review barbarossa2. You obviously have a passion for the game and the historical period. You certainly didn't deny yourself by waiting for Empire: TW. Give it a couple of months and then consider purchasing it. I am still waiting for Amazon to list CoG: EE so I can use my gift certificate that has been burning a hole in my wallet since Christmas.

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RE: Why CoG:EE Is A Solid 8/10 Game - 3/26/2009 3:18:01 PM   
AminMaalouf

 

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The CoG:EE gift certificat is a good idea.

How would you rate the music in CoG:EE, Barbarossa 2?

< Message edited by AminMaalouf -- 3/26/2009 3:29:46 PM >

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RE: Why CoG:EE Is A Solid 8/10 Game - 3/26/2009 3:32:23 PM   
barbarossa2

 

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The music in CoG:EE is great.  It is basically a blend of 19th and 17th century classical music (lots of 17th century Vivaldi, but who cares). 90% of the tracks are extremely well done and top quality.  Two leave me wondering.  One of those two questionable tracks is a version of the Marseillese (I think) which sounds like it was played on a Casio keyboard found at a garage sale.  But on the whole, it is a wonderful sound track which enriches your game experience.  I would however, say that after hearing the 1812 Overture 100 times, it is time to turn off the sound and dig out some of your own classical music to play in the background. 

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RE: Why CoG:EE Is A Solid 8/10 Game - 3/26/2009 4:30:52 PM   
barbarossa2

 

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Arnivald, I need to say, I wanted to help WCS get the word out on this.  I would really, really like to see a CoG:EE2, CoG:EE3, and a CoG:EE4.  It also seems it has gotten a bit of a bum rap in some other reviews.  But I think that too many people go for glitz over game play.  And as many psychological studies have shown, glitz can blind you to things like quality of play (one of my hobbies is the psychology of consumer behavior--I also have a 4 year marketing degree)--even among people who claim it would never blind them to other issues.

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RE: Why CoG:EE Is A Solid 8/10 Game - 3/26/2009 7:31:50 PM   
Gil R.


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barbarossa2,

Thank you for your detailed review -- both your comments and that you took so much time to write them.

And you're right about the game's first patch -- it will please a lot of people.


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RE: Why CoG:EE Is A Solid 8/10 Game - 3/26/2009 8:21:30 PM   
lenin


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Any sneak hints as to what's in the first patch?

Have to agree with Barbarossa, that this game is amazingly stable and playable out of the box. Having a blast with it!

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RE: Why CoG:EE Is A Solid 8/10 Game - 3/26/2009 8:29:48 PM   
MorningDew

 

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Great review. Spot on. Two that really struck a chord for me were:

quote:

-It might be nice to have some kind of "interception movement" option so that there aren't as many turns spent "dancing" with your enemy trying to move to contact.


I agree totally. Something where you specify a specific force to intercept and it will move to them, not where they were. This would be great.

quote:

- I still haven't heard from anyone at WCS if the advances which are obviously purely tactical have an effect when players resolve a battle with "instant" combat. For instance, does "squares", which is obviously used on the detailed combat map, help me in instant combat?


Agree totally. I'd love detailed documention listing the benefits from each advance in quick/instant combat.



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RE: Why CoG:EE Is A Solid 8/10 Game - 3/26/2009 8:43:21 PM   
barbarossa2

 

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Andrew, I have to admit, I don't know if I need specific numbers on how these tactical bonuses help us in "instant combat" (I like to keep some of this stuff unknown actually, in order to prevent people pulling out calculators in a very un-napoleon like fashion).  But I would like a solid reassurance that they do, in fact--each and every one of them--have some effect.

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RE: Why CoG:EE Is A Solid 8/10 Game - 3/26/2009 9:00:34 PM   
IronWarrior


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quote:

ORIGINAL: barbarossa2

... in order to prevent people pulling out calculators in a very un-napoleon like fashion).


You've never been around the group I played miniatures/tabletop with then. Charts, dice, calculators, etc etc... enough to make one cross-eyed. Of course when we found Carnage and Glory, that took a lot of the tedium away.

Anyway, nice review. And I actually do agree with you that I don't need to know all the goings on "under-the-hood"... just if it actually does work or not.

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RE: Why CoG:EE Is A Solid 8/10 Game - 3/26/2009 9:15:55 PM   
Erik Rutins

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: barbarossa2
Andrew, I have to admit, I don't know if I need specific numbers on how these tactical bonuses help us in "instant combat" (I like to keep some of this stuff unknown actually, in order to prevent people pulling out calculators in a very un-napoleon like fashion).  But I would like a solid reassurance that they do, in fact--each and every one of them--have some effect.


Yes, as far as I know all of them have an effect. For an example of how this works, if you have FOF the detailed battle ability bonuses for Quick Combat were all documented there and every single one has an effect, albeit individually it's a minor effect they do add up.


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RE: Why CoG:EE Is A Solid 8/10 Game - 3/27/2009 2:17:22 PM   
ubik

 

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Congrats on a great and detailed review!




I'd give it 9 out of 10, maybe because I am less demanding! ;)

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RE: Why CoG:EE Is A Solid 8/10 Game - 3/27/2009 3:30:37 PM   
MorningDew

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: IronWarrior

And I actually do agree with you that I don't need to know all the goings on "under-the-hood"... just if it actually does work or not.



I don't want details like numbers etc. But a general description of the benefit would be great to help understand. So, for example. does one help more in defending v cav? Does one help reduce pursuit casualties? etc.

I'm going to try to dig up the FOF document. It may have everything I'm looking for.

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RE: Why CoG:EE Is A Solid 8/10 Game - 3/27/2009 6:25:27 PM   
ASHBERY76


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Krasny

You may wish to read this review before buying E:TW:

[url]http://www.crispygamer.com/gamereviews/2009-03-17/empire-total-war-pc.aspx[/url]

Some salient quotes from the piece.....

quote:

It is also a terrible mess from start to finish that makes me wonder if developer Creative Assembly has contempt for its fan base and utter disregard for everyone else. But I'll get to that in a moment.


quote:

The wretched documentation is the earliest problem with Empire: Total War, but it is by no means its biggest or longest problem. Instead, once again, Creative Assembly has made a game that its AI cannot play.


quote:

It seems that many of the game's features simply aren't used by the AI. Perhaps the most glaring omission is that the AI can't move armies across water, which makes life as the British Empire particularly easy.






91% on metacritic.

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RE: Why CoG:EE Is A Solid 8/10 Game - 3/27/2009 9:17:25 PM   
Anthropoid


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quote:

ORIGINAL: ubik

Congrats on a great and detailed review!

I'd give it 9 out of 10, maybe because I am less demanding! ;)


I agree. It is a solid nine (9) to 9+ for me. My guess is you are just a very discerning customer Barbarossa, and I don't begrudge your lower rating, but I'd encourage you to look at it from my perspective too.

There are definitely more things that _could_ be included in a game engine like this, or slight issues that might not suit all opinions. But to me that is not what distinguishes a good game from a great game.

This game installs seamlessly, it runs beautifully, it has good to excellent documentation, you can get on here on the forums and chit-chat with the designers, Matrix is one of the best consumer experiences a gamer can have, and the game is the epitome of "strategy war game." It is NOT the epitome of real-time strategy graphics-fest posing as strategy war game, and I think that is what some might be expecting (not you Barbarossa, but the 'general' gamer community maybe), but IMO not only are such standards not applicable to such a game, but such standards are trivial to begin with.

A graphics fest with a stupid AI that does not even know how to play the game is something you can achieve by throwing a bunch of money at game development.

A balanced, intriguing, subtle, artistically-satisfying, historically-accurate-enough, challenging, easy-to-learn/hard-to-master game like COG:EE is a work of art. You don't create art with big bankrolls, you create it with inspiration, hard work, team work, vision, and dedication. _THAT_ is what characterizes these guys, this game, and THAT is why we gamers who are true devotees of this genre need to stand behind their accomplishment and heap accolades on them.

If even an additional 10% of the "strategy" games that come out each year can shift even just a few points toward the COG:EE end of the spectrum, and a few points away from the E:TW end of the spectrum, it is good for all of us.

Poser strategy games with expensive, and rig-snagging graphics are here to stay. No amount of bitching or complaining by us Grogs is going to offset the massive reaping of profits that these market-strategies are achieving by tapping into the fringes of the X-box segment.

That right there is why we all need to stand behind good to great, nah even MEDIOCRE, games that are honest manifestations of true strategy gaming with devotion and conviction. In a competitive world in which games like Civ 4 and Empire: TW get massively rewarded for design sleights of hand that involve a basic dumbing-down of 'strategy,' and oversimplication of game mechanics but with front-end 'chrome' and fancy graphics and presentation that transfixes and beguiles, true strategy games like COG:EE are 'endangered species.'

_____________________________

The x-ray is her siren song. My ship cannot resist her long. Nearer to my deadly goal. Until the black hole. Gains control...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IkIIlkyZ328&feature=autoplay&list=AL94UKMTqg-9CocLGbd6tpbuQRxyF4FGNr&playnext=3

(in reply to ubik)
Post #: 21
RE: Why CoG:EE Is A Solid 8/10 Game - 3/28/2009 3:26:54 AM   
barbarossa2

 

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Haha... Yes, Dr. Evil. I am sure CoG:EE will assuredly be a 9/10 when the first patch comes out. And I have added that note to the review above now to make you happy. :) And I have to say, without a doubt, it is the best Napoleonics diplomacy and grand strategy game I have ever played. Though AGEOD's Napoleon is also good. I love the multi-front, 23 year scenarios with lots to do to keep other opponents happy.

I have to admit, however, if WCS could put in a tactical battle engine in as beautiful as the one Total War:Empire offers, but do the same thing for its tactical "realism" that they did for Napoleonic diplomacy, then they would get a 10/10. No doubts.

< Message edited by barbarossa2 -- 3/30/2009 5:29:06 PM >

(in reply to Anthropoid)
Post #: 22
RE: Why CoG:EE Is A Solid 8/10 Game - 3/28/2009 5:39:01 AM   
Anthropoid


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quote:

ORIGINAL: barbarossa2

Haha... Yes, Dr. Evil. I am sure CoG:EE will assuredly be a 9/10 when the first patch comes out. And I have added that note to the review above now to make you happy. :) And I have to say, without a doubt, the best Napoleonics diplomacy and grand strategy game I have ever played. Though AGEOD's Napoleon is also good. I love the multi-front, 23 year scenarios with lots to do to keep other opponents happy.

I have to admit, however, if WCS could put in a tactical battle engine in as beautiful as the one Total War:Empire offers, but do the same thing for its tactical "realism" that they did for Napoleonic diplomacy, then they would get a 10/10. No doubts.


By realistic, do you mean the graphics, or the dynamics?

_____________________________

The x-ray is her siren song. My ship cannot resist her long. Nearer to my deadly goal. Until the black hole. Gains control...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IkIIlkyZ328&feature=autoplay&list=AL94UKMTqg-9CocLGbd6tpbuQRxyF4FGNr&playnext=3

(in reply to barbarossa2)
Post #: 23
RE: Why CoG:EE Is A Solid 8/10 Game - 3/28/2009 11:36:09 AM   
barbarossa2

 

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Dr. Evil, what I meant was, I don't think that Total War: Medieval/Rome/Medieval 2/Empire's tactical combat engines are realistic (sure the graphics are beautiful).  Battles are lightening fast and armies fight to the death far too often (I rarely get out of a multi player tactical battle without having lost 80% of my men), and there really aren't enough maneuver units in my opinion (the cap is at 20).

I wish that CoG:EE had the same kind of battle engine that the total war series has, but more realistically played.  I simply don't enjoy anything hex based anymore really.

(in reply to Anthropoid)
Post #: 24
RE: Why CoG:EE Is A Solid 8/10 Game - 3/28/2009 3:32:17 PM   
lenin


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quote:

ORIGINAL: barbarossa2

Dr. Evil, what I meant was, I don't think that Total War: Medieval/Rome/Medieval 2/Empire's tactical combat engines are realistic (sure the graphics are beautiful).  Battles are lightening fast and armies fight to the death far too often (I rarely get out of a multi player tactical battle without having lost 80% of my men), and there really aren't enough maneuver units in my opinion (the cap is at 20).

I wish that CoG:EE had the same kind of battle engine that the total war series has, but more realistically played.  I simply don't enjoy anything hex based anymore really.


That would be my dream too, Barbarossa. Unfortunately, if anyone ever pulled it off, I don't think I would ever leave my house.

_____________________________

"Imperialism is the eve of the proletarian social revolution"

(in reply to barbarossa2)
Post #: 25
RE: Why CoG:EE Is A Solid 8/10 Game - 3/28/2009 3:46:10 PM   
Anthropoid


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quote:

ORIGINAL: barbarossa2 . . . I wish that CoG:EE had the same kind of battle engine that the total war series has, but more realistically played.  I simply don't enjoy anything hex based anymore really.


That is an interesting point, and it makes me wonder about the distribution of various tastes and preferences for the graphical side of user experience (GSUE) among gamers these days. Games like Civ, the whole 3D first-person-shooter genre (FPS), and then the highly 'realistic' graphical experiences in myriad real-time strategy games (RTS) have done a lot to transform the standards and expectations in the market, and I am frankly a bit discouraged by that transformation. I noticed in a previous post that Ubik said something similar about 'graphics being paramount,' if I may paraphrase. It is an interesting isssue from both a consumer psych, and anthropological and a game-marketer perspective.

I'll state up front that my tastes are with games like War in the Pacific (WiTP), Forge of Freedom (FoF) COG:EE, and games with similarly austere GSUE that are more 'realistic' in (a) being scaled to realworld terrain and geography; (b) intrinsically based on a turn-based system in which most variation in performance at the game does not depend on what I call 'Twitch Factor Gaming' (TFG)(handeye-coordination and in particular keyboard-hotkey-mouse-screen coordination of hand-eye executive function); (c) allow for detailed terrain-combat-unit dynamics to be simulated (e.g., a "Woodsman" unit in a wood hex/tile is not so easy to simulate in a non-hex RTS-style map I would think?). What these games lack in complexity of GSUE they more than make up for in actual depth of historical detail, nuances of strategic potential, and capability to simulate real historical (or fantastical) social/military dynamics with a reasonably easy to run engine that remains balanced and challenging to comprehend and master.

I have not played any of the Total War series, but I did play a bit of Starcraft, and Star Wars Empires(?) (the one that is similar to Starcraft in game design). Admittedly, a game like Star Wars Empires (SWE) is not WITHOUT strategy, it is simply that the visceral 'rewards' of the battles are a much more prevalent element of the experience than is the introspective analysis of strategic and tactical factors. I found that if I played SWE by constantly hitting the pause button, I enjoyed it quite a bit, and probably got a good two months of gaming out of it, playing an average of 10 or 15 hours a week.

Starcraft I uninstalled after maybe 8 hours of trying it. It was, to put it quite simply, a 'kid's game,' that I simply could not get in to.

I'm guessing the TW series are more toward SWE, but now withe even more grandiose engine, security, 'steam' perambulations to wade through, and for a gamer like me, who I guess I'd characterize as a fairly typical 'Grog,' it is just not worth it.

My great fear is that these TFG RTS, glitz-factor GSUE games are 'taking over.'

Don't have any real data to back that up, but when I hear someone like you, who is obviously a very mature, very thoughtful, intelligent, knowledgeable and serious strategy gamer, i.e., also a 'Grog,' say that he has 'had it with hex-based,' it seems to me to corroborate that they are 'taking over.'

I suppose a GSUE like Civ _is_ in _some_ ways more pleasing than one like WiTP or COGEE or FoF. I have to put a lot of emphasis on SOME.

I find the Tactical battles in FoF and COGEE to be absolutely enthralling, at least for the course of one or two campaign wins. Granted the AI is not that able to standup to a human, and after winning maybe 3 or 4 games with FoF I stopped playing it for a long period, but in the instance of a game like Starcraft of SWE, I didn't even get that much mileage out of a game that lacked the tactical and strategic sophistication, but did have better graphics.

I'll put forward an 'hypothesis,' I think that we are increasingly beguiled and transfixed by mass-media. I look at games like World of Warcraft, which are really not even games at all, but merely 'past-times.' A game has a basis for winning and losing. WoW (and evidently Empire Total War: Napoleon based on the review) can neither be "won" nor "lost" as far as I can tell; it simply takes time and energy and yes, indeed, thought, and teamwork, to get the imagery you want most: watching your Level 80 bad-arse character whooping up one everyone in sight . . . To me it is like a classic operant conditioning exercise in which the proverbial rats have been habituated to push the bar that should provide them with a 'real' reward (e.g., a food pellet, or to use the gaming equivalent, an 'honorable win' that is based on a thorough strategic understanding) but instead all they ever get is a 'pretty picture' that they find ephemerally satisfying, and a prompt to push the bar again.

To me, if you want to see a 'pretty picture,' heck! Go outside and go for a hike. Look into the eyes of the old lady who needs your help with her groceries at the supermarket. Make eye-contact with that person on the street who could benefit from a wee-bit of encouragement. Hug a tree. The 'prettiness' and impressiveness of these supposedly amazing sophisticated GSUEs is really not that impressive to me, and the sad part for us strategy gamers is that in most instances the glitzy GSUE is being 'bought' at the expense of the 'real reward:' a game that is a challenge to learn and master and thus provides the opportunity, through effort and thought, to achive an honorable win.

Much like other elements of society that are being changed, diluted, or dumbed-down if I may be so bold, graphics are IMHO threatening to kill if not killing real strategy gaming.

_____________________________

The x-ray is her siren song. My ship cannot resist her long. Nearer to my deadly goal. Until the black hole. Gains control...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IkIIlkyZ328&feature=autoplay&list=AL94UKMTqg-9CocLGbd6tpbuQRxyF4FGNr&playnext=3

(in reply to barbarossa2)
Post #: 26
RE: Why CoG:EE Is A Solid 8/10 Game - 3/28/2009 4:49:23 PM   
barbarossa2

 

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A well thought out and well presented post Dr. Evil. :)

I have to admit, I work hard to not buy games only for their graphical flair, but mostly for their historical value.

I used to love hex based WWII gaming.  However, after I discovered Microsoft's Close Combat series and Panther Games' Highway to the Reich/Conquest of the Agean/Battles for the Bulge, I don't know if I could ever go back.  It was what I had wanted since I was 13.  The same thing happened for me with Total War Medieval.  Basically it destroyed my last inkling of a desire to play anything hex based or turn based. 

I still enjoy turn based strategic gaming, but I never liked spending 45 minutes slaving away over a map with hundreds of chits piled up on it to carry out actions representing 120 seconds of real life (sound like Squad Leader? It is.)

Just one problem with hex based gaming...the 60 degree facing changes (in most games).  Didn't it bother anyone else that there are some directions which you can't make a solid line of troops in?  The total war tactical engine did away with all of this (but cost us other points on realism elsewhere).

It may interest you Dr. Evil, but I never play the strategy side of the TW games anymore.  Generally I only buy it so I can do multi-player online battles.

I purchased CoG:EE for the strategy side of it. And am happy many people enjoy the tactical side of it. But I have to admit, I wish they would have put ALL of their effort into the strategic side. It does seem like it would have value for WCS to prepackage battles like Waterloo, Ligny, Austerlitz, Borodino and more in the game. I would probably even try one of those.

Anyway, here's to WCS! For giving people what they want (mostly). Because you can't keep all of the people happy all of the time.

< Message edited by barbarossa2 -- 3/28/2009 5:05:16 PM >

(in reply to Anthropoid)
Post #: 27
RE: Why CoG:EE Is A Solid 8/10 Game - 3/28/2009 5:29:15 PM   
Anthropoid


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Thanks for the response Barbarossa. I'll have to try some of those other one's you mention sometime. I only buy maybe 4 or 5 games a year, and even at that pace feel I play too much!

_____________________________

The x-ray is her siren song. My ship cannot resist her long. Nearer to my deadly goal. Until the black hole. Gains control...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IkIIlkyZ328&feature=autoplay&list=AL94UKMTqg-9CocLGbd6tpbuQRxyF4FGNr&playnext=3

(in reply to barbarossa2)
Post #: 28
RE: Why CoG:EE Is A Solid 8/10 Game - 3/30/2009 4:23:22 PM   
ubik

 

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Wow Anthropoid!
Very interesting points you raise on your posts.

Honestly I am not too worried about the future of "true" strategy computer games. The point is, even if a niche market, there will always be enough of us to motivate talented people to write games with our tastes in mind. These people will most assuredly have a passion for the niche in question, thus the games will be of higher average quality overall than the mainstream ones, even when taking out tastes of the picture.

Also, this graphics rule policy will end sooner or later. We are not that far from the point where the images we see on games match those we see on movies. So, while mainstream is pursuing something that will end by itself at a point in the future (and not that distant), gameplay is something that will continue to evolve, a bit like writing, in my opinion. Gameplay is the art. Graphics are just the cover of the book. ;)

The market is in itself pretty stratified. One knows he should avoid EA games like the plague. One knows one should avoid games based on movie licences like the plague. By looking at the back of the box or at half a dozen of screenshots one knows if the game has potential to look further or not.

I don't believe in that "End of PC games", "End of strategy games", "End of submarine simulator games", etc coined sentences.

Still a remark and a friendly provocation on your win/lose section. I think the "The End" screenshot of games where a player wins or loses is much more related to mainstream games than to niche ones like COG:EE. I think the mainstream begs for an end, like it begs for deterministic experiences where the player's actions are canned through a preset plot (or in more "complex" titles, a plot tree).
Comparing a subset of games (MMORPGs) where the cardinal rule of the business effectively change (the more time you spend on it, the more money the developers make) with "no monthly fee" games to underscore the win/lose vs open ended dichotomy is in my opinion a mistake.


Finally barbarossa2 did a nice remark on the questionable mix between a pure strategy game where tactical actions are abstracted and tactical maps where we move counters around.
My luck is that I love playing that tactical aspect even if abstrated into hexes and you don't! :)




(in reply to Anthropoid)
Post #: 29
RE: Why CoG:EE Is A Solid 8/10 Game - 3/30/2009 6:04:51 PM   
ericbabe


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Thank you for the thoughtful review.

It's true that Vivaldi was born in 1678, but he didn't start his professional music career until 1704, and wrote most of his music in the 18th century.  If Patrick O'Brian can have Jack Aubrey playing J.S. Bach in The Ionian Mission, it's perhaps not so unforgiveable to have included some Vivaldi in COG:EE!

Our most out-of-period composer (setting aside Tchaikovsky's "1812 Overture") is Jean-Baptiste Lully: he never even made it to the 18th century.  The two Lully pieces we include just sound very good, and don't really sound (to my ear, at least) much different from 18th century court music that I've heard.

We looked long and hard for a better version of La Marseillaise to license affordably, but could find nothing better than the midi-sounding version included in the game at present.  If anyone knows of a better version in the public domain, or available for <=$75, we'd be happy to replace the current version with anything better.  Similarly, we couldn't find very good versions of "Rule Brittania" and "God Save the Queen."


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