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Infantry In Line Formation - 3/22/2009 12:02:24 PM   
Krasny

 

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How many MP does it take for the highlighted unit to move into the hex designated by the arrow?

[image][/image]

< Message edited by Krasny -- 3/22/2009 12:06:04 PM >


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RE: Infantry In Line Formation - 3/22/2009 4:48:45 PM   
Joram

 

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You're not forgotten Krasny, am still looking into it.  This is a great screenshot but it would be more useful if you showed the entire amount that shows your units morale and movement points.  If this is what your save file had, I can't see it unfortunately due to version incompatibilities.

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RE: Infantry In Line Formation - 3/22/2009 7:13:30 PM   
Krasny

 

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I'm running CoG:EE 1.0.

Because the save does not resume at the unit where I saved it you have to skip until you get to that unit.

Reading the manual is crazy complicated. Instead of having movement cost by terrain by formation, there is a rather obscure reference to original morale.

Interestingly I can enter villages etc just fine as long as I'm not moving next to an enemy unit, which according to the manual should not hinder me in anyway, unless I started my move in the ZoC of another enemy unit.



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RE: Infantry In Line Formation - 3/22/2009 7:45:18 PM   
Joram

 

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Agreed, that is what I noticed too trying to recreate your issue and am awaiting clarification if some rule is not well documented or if there is something else going on.

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RE: Infantry In Line Formation - 3/22/2009 8:38:31 PM   
Krasny

 

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My other thread got subverted :)

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RE: Infantry In Line Formation - 3/24/2009 12:07:22 PM   
Krasny

 

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It is quite a simple question.

But as requested the full screen.

[image][/image]

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RE: Infantry In Line Formation - 3/24/2009 12:39:32 PM   
Joram

 

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I believe it is actually a lack of documentation and a possible bug.  Will address both points but ask for your patience. 

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RE: Infantry In Line Formation - 3/24/2009 1:42:21 PM   
Krasny

 

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I do hope I'm not giving the impression of being rude or impatient.

I do believe I raised the possibility of a ZoC bug in a previous post.

In an attempt to clarify the issue of moving next to enemy units, I asked how many movement points would the above move require.




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RE: Infantry In Line Formation - 3/26/2009 12:45:34 PM   
Krasny

 

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My original post was a very simple question:

quote:

How many MP does it take for the highlighted unit to move into the hex designated by the arrow


I'm not asking if the game is bugged or anything like that.

A simple one integer answer would be apprieciated.



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RE: Infantry In Line Formation - 3/26/2009 2:19:37 PM   
ant1815

 

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I'd be interested in the answer to this too. I've had a couple of situations where it wasn't really apparent why my unit couldn't enter a particular area in line formation.

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RE: Infantry In Line Formation - 3/28/2009 1:40:33 PM   
Krasny

 

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If nobody can answer such a simple question, how the hell is this game to be taken seriously?



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RE: Infantry In Line Formation - 3/28/2009 4:24:42 PM   
Anthropoid


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I think enemy ZOC exerts extra movement costs, and moving in line into dense terrain (urban, forest, etc.) can with this make it impossible for a unit to move in.

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RE: Infantry In Line Formation - 3/28/2009 6:53:46 PM   
Krasny

 

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quote:

I think enemy ZOC exerts extra movement costs, and moving in line into dense terrain (urban, forest, etc.) can with this make it impossible for a unit to move in.


What you think contradicts what the manual says.

You may be right however.

The manual says it costs extra MP to leave a ZOC into another ZOC hex.

In this situation I am not leaving a ZOC, merely entering one.

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RE: Infantry In Line Formation - 3/28/2009 6:58:30 PM   
Anthropoid


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Well hopefully somebody who knows for certain will respond eventually. It is annoying when a game mechanic works opposite the way it is indicated in a manual . Thankfully though, there are quite few of these in out-of-the-box CoGEE!

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RE: Infantry In Line Formation - 3/29/2009 1:55:07 AM   
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Light infantry and jager can move into urban areas in line formation, but other infantry types should not be able to move into urban areas in line formation.

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RE: Infantry In Line Formation - 3/29/2009 3:21:39 AM   
Anthropoid


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Thanks Eric! See that makes total sense :)

Eric, did you see my post of the CTD in Atlantic naval combat?

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RE: Infantry In Line Formation - 3/29/2009 11:00:11 AM   
Joram

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Krasny

If nobody can answer such a simple question, how the hell is this game to be taken seriously?




Reading the manual always helps. Pg 143 FYI

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RE: Infantry In Line Formation - 3/29/2009 1:17:41 PM   
Krasny

 

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I have read P.143 of the manual.

It says:

quote:

Units in Line must end movement in Wood, except Light and Jager Inf.


I can't see any reference to units in line not being able to enter village.

Indeed units in line in my games have been able to enter village whilst in line, BUT not whilst entering a ZoC.

These units weren't Light or Jager, being standard British infantry.

So the mystery still remains.

It's probably a ZoC bug.


< Message edited by Krasny -- 3/29/2009 1:21:44 PM >


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RE: Infantry In Line Formation - 3/30/2009 4:46:25 PM   
ericbabe


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I think I see the issue.  Any infantry unit in line formation can enter an urban hex (or any other rough hex, including mud, tall grass, and so forth).  For normal infantry units, this movement costs their entire movement allotment; light infantry and jager instead only pay a small cost (3, if I remember correctly).  The additional cost for moving into or out-of an enemy's ZOC (+2 mp's), and for starting adjacent to an enemy (+2), can make moving into an urban hex too expensive for a regular infantry unit in line formation.  We should apply the additional ZOC costs only when units in line aren't moving into rough terrain.  I will change this for the next patch.


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RE: Infantry In Line Formation - 3/30/2009 5:11:23 PM   
dude

 

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Why not just allow inf units to be allowed to move at least 1 hex no matter what it costs (as long as they have their full MP remaining).  I've had units stuck for ages because they couldn't move in any direction, even one hex... and they had lots of MP's available. 

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RE: Infantry In Line Formation - 3/30/2009 5:38:09 PM   
Krasny

 

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quote:

I think I see the issue. Any infantry unit in line formation can enter an urban hex (or any other rough hex, including mud, tall grass, and so forth). For normal infantry units, this movement costs their entire movement allotment; light infantry and jager instead only pay a small cost (3, if I remember correctly). The additional cost for moving into or out-of an enemy's ZOC (+2 mp's), and for starting adjacent to an enemy (+2), can make moving into an urban hex too expensive for a regular infantry unit in line formation. We should apply the additional ZOC costs only when units in line aren't moving into rough terrain. I will change this for the next patch.


My reading of the manual (P.145) is that leaving a ZoC costs 4MP, but entering a ZoC does not.

Anyway I was right, it's bugged or badly designed.

Yay me. :(



quote:

Why not just allow inf units to be allowed to move at least 1 hex no matter what it costs (as long as they have their full MP remaining). I've had units stuck for ages because they couldn't move in any direction, even one hex... and they had lots of MP's available.


Why implement such a elegant and simple solution, when a convoluted and complex one will do? ;)

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RE: Infantry In Line Formation - 3/30/2009 7:12:16 PM   
ericbabe


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We don't do this because we do want units to become stuck by enemy zones-of-control under certain situations.  When an infantry is in an enemy's ZOC, and all the hexes around it are in ZOC's, then we'd like the desired behavior to be that your unit becomes stuck, no matter how many movement points it has.

I've played battles in COG with the rule that units can move through one hex of ZOC each turn, and the result was that it was far too easy for armies simply to march through each other.

I've actually considered making the rules more restrictive, to add a rule that when a unit leaves a ZOC during its turn that it can never enter another ZOC during that turn.


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RE: Infantry In Line Formation - 3/30/2009 7:17:22 PM   
ericbabe


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Anthropoid
Eric, did you see my post of the CTD in Atlantic naval combat?


Yes; I just responded to it. I will try to take a look at your save files later today.

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RE: Infantry In Line Formation - 3/30/2009 7:46:24 PM   
Anthropoid


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Well here is a related question, and related to points I made in my Wish List post: is there any real and generalizable benefit to fighting in line formation in an urban or fort hex?

What is "the best" formation to be in for urban and fort hexes?

Eric, would it be either (a) a major game unbalancer/X-variable, or (b) too hard to code to introduce a new formation:

"Taking Cover" If used in an urban or fortress hex (or maybe/BIG-maybe in wooded hexes), this formation is overall better defensively than either column, line or square in urban or fortress hexes. Taking Cover Formation would have the same "no flank to exploit" benefit as a Square Formation, but without the penalty to attacking and vulnerability to high firepower of the Square (okay, I admit I have not read the manual, so I might be off base here . . .).

The downsides of this formation: (a) chops attack value to 1/3; (b) reduces movement to effectively zero; (c) once adopted requires higher morale to change back to column than it cost to change INTO Taking Cover in the first place, i.e., it would be 'semi-permanent for the remainder of a detailed battle; (d) is equally bad at attack, but also worse at defense in all other hexes (maybe including wooded), i.e., is really ONLY useful for putting a weak unit into a 'garrison' duty where they are expected to make a last stand defense.

ADDIT: In fact, maybe instead of "Taking Cover," the label should be "Garrison" since what I'm really talking about here is restricting its beneficial use to urban and fort hexes. Maybe it could even be coded so that it was ONLY an option when the unit was in urban or fort hexes?

The Taking Cover Formation should be available to ALL infantry units right from the start of the game. My logic here? To quote myself from my Wish List post:

quote:

I am still not clear what the "best" formation is for a unit that is in an urban or fortress hex (or for that matter a forest hex). Column to me means column, not column and every other formation besides line and square. For that matter, I doubt the "formation" that a unit would take when it moves into a town or a fort would be akin to a "column" anyway.

Why not kill two birds with one stone here: create a new formation that is specific to defensive terrain where cover is plentiful and which is beneficial in such terrain (but very unbeneficial if there is not cover in the terrain). It seems to me that the instinct to get inside a building or behind a corner or a parapet is the most basic of instincts that will come naturally to the most green or cowardly of militias, so the idea that an incompetent unit can only manage to stay rigidly in column formation foregoing the defensive benefit of ducking inside some buildings has always stuck out to me as a slight niggling annoyance with this engine. One thing that could make it even better: make it hard for a unit that has less morale or experience or whatever you call it to switch BACK to column or line once it is IN a defensive tile and in the "Take Cover" formation. It might be easy to get even the most cowardly green militia to get behind cover but then getting them back OUT of cover! That could be another story.


< Message edited by Anthropoid -- 3/30/2009 7:56:38 PM >


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RE: Infantry In Line Formation - 3/30/2009 8:15:13 PM   
Joram

 

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Hi Anthropoid, good and constructive questions but I don't think a 'taking cover' formation would be necessary.  Note that a village reduces casualties down to 60% so you are already getting a pretty good defensive modifier.  There's no need for a special formation to take cover.   That kind of makes the rest of your argument moot a bit except the attack part.  Since you are forced to stay in 'column', you already are being penalized to some extent (more technically, you simply aren't getting the line bonus) representing you don't get the full field of fire.   I was thinking maybe we should get a morale bonus but actually morale loss is directly tied to casualties so just the fact you take less casualties is a morale bonus. 

Now with light troops, by allowing them to go into line in a village, it essentially shows their superior tactical flexibility as befits a light unit by reducing casualties a further as well as allowing greater fire output.  Perhaps something worth considering is if there should be any facing, or at least flanking penalties in such a situation?  Hmm, something I may have to check but Eric, can you state what happens in that situation?



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RE: Infantry In Line Formation - 3/31/2009 12:46:31 AM   
Anthropoid


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Joram Note that a village reduces casualties down to 60% so you are already getting a pretty good defensive modifier. 


Ahh! Well in that case, being in Column in a village ALREADY acts like a 'Taking Cover' formation! I'm guessing it is the same for a fort?

quote:

Perhaps something worth considering is if there should be any facing, or at least flanking penalties in such a situation?  Hmm, something I may have to check but Eric, can you state what happens in that situation?


Well if a line in a town can be flanked it would seem that is not right. Also, IMHO, given the 60% defensive bonus, going into Square should either not be allowed, or have effectively no difference in effect to column.


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The x-ray is her siren song. My ship cannot resist her long. Nearer to my deadly goal. Until the black hole. Gains control...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IkIIlkyZ328&feature=autoplay&list=AL94UKMTqg-9CocLGbd6tpbuQRxyF4FGNr&playnext=3

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RE: Infantry In Line Formation - 3/31/2009 10:47:23 AM   
Krasny

 

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quote:

We don't do this because we do want units to become stuck by enemy zones-of-control under certain situations.  When an infantry is in an enemy's ZOC, and all the hexes around it are in ZOC's, then we'd like the desired behavior to be that your unit becomes stuck, no matter how many movement points it has.

I've played battles in COG with the rule that units can move through one hex of ZOC each turn, and the result was that it was far too easy for armies simply to march through each other.

I've actually considered making the rules more restrictive, to add a rule that when a unit leaves a ZOC during its turn that it can never enter another ZOC during that turn.


Sounds entirely reasonable that it should be difficult for units to leave a ZoC.

Units leaving a ZoC should be subject to one free fire from the unit whose ZoC they are leaving. Maybe entering a ZoC should also carry a similar consequence.

However my example did not have an infantry unit leaving a ZoC, merely entering one.


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