WIF board game
Moderator: Shannon V. OKeets
WIF board game
Qustion for the board game players, I understand the first move will cover Sept. and Oct. 1939, whether you are playing one or more players or playing the AI is it possible for Poland to surrender in that move if the German player is very competent or reasonably compentent or does it depend on luck or both? In the SC games speed is important, Poland must fall early so you could be in position to invade France in May of 1940. Does a real time line of WW2 effect your game play? Like oh I better take Poland no later than October and France must fall by July 1940. Just curious because I am starting to get itchy about this game which is a good thing.
Willy
Willy
RE: WIF board game
First, the September/October moves consists of several impulses, you could even consider each impulse pair (Axis and then Allies) as whole turns in themselves. Usually Germany will have 3 or 4 impulses (subturns) in the first Sep/Oct 39 turn to knock out Poland. Weather may change from each impulse pair. The end of the entire turn is vaiable and depends on die rolls.
Some players are not in a hurry to take out Poland, then it could last for another whole turn or even into 40. Other players will split the German forces and besides taking out Poland may also take out Denmark and possibly the Netherlands in Sep/Oct 39. Yet others may align Hungary and attack Yugoslavia and then align Rumania in the Sep/Oct turn.
France usually falls in summer of 40 but again the importance of that event depends a lot on what plans the Axis have for the war.
All in all the game is very open to the Axis deviating a lot from history and it allows for very safe or very risky decisions to be made and carried out.
Lars
Some players are not in a hurry to take out Poland, then it could last for another whole turn or even into 40. Other players will split the German forces and besides taking out Poland may also take out Denmark and possibly the Netherlands in Sep/Oct 39. Yet others may align Hungary and attack Yugoslavia and then align Rumania in the Sep/Oct turn.
France usually falls in summer of 40 but again the importance of that event depends a lot on what plans the Axis have for the war.
All in all the game is very open to the Axis deviating a lot from history and it allows for very safe or very risky decisions to be made and carried out.
Lars
RE: WIF board game
ORIGINAL: willycube
Qustion for the board game players, I understand the first move will cover Sept. and Oct. 1939, whether you are playing one or more players or playing the AI is it possible for Poland to surrender in that move if the German player is very competent or reasonably compentent or does it depend on luck or both? In the SC games speed is important, Poland must fall early so you could be in position to invade France in May of 1940. Does a real time line of WW2 effect your game play? Like oh I better take Poland no later than October and France must fall by July 1940. Just curious because I am starting to get itchy about this game which is a good thing.
Willy
If Germany commit enough forces they will conquer Poland during Sep/Oct 1939 with average luck (with bad luck Poland might survive). If Germany commits heavily against Poland only extremely bad die rolls can save Poland.
Each turn (like Sep/Oct 1939) is divided into impulses where you get to move your units. Germany can count on moving and fight at least 3 times during the first turn.
There is no fixed dates that you must have done things. It is obviously better to conquer France sooner than later but as long as you capture some resources and have light losses you are in no big trouble. As long as you can declare Vichy France in 1940 you are doing reasonably well. Germany is in real trouble if France survives untill USA enters the war.
Have a bit more patience with newbies. Of course some of them act dumb -- they're often students, for heaven's sake. - Terry Pratchett
-
- Posts: 268
- Joined: Sun Aug 24, 2008 6:40 pm
- Location: Sacramento, CA
RE: WIF board game
ORIGINAL: willycube
Qustion for the board game players, I understand the first move will cover Sept. and Oct. 1939, whether you are playing one or more players or playing the AI is it possible for Poland to surrender in that move if the German player is very competent or reasonably compentent or does it depend on luck or both? In the SC games speed is important, Poland must fall early so you could be in position to invade France in May of 1940. Does a real time line of WW2 effect your game play? Like oh I better take Poland no later than October and France must fall by July 1940. Just curious because I am starting to get itchy about this game which is a good thing.
Willy
Well, one of the major differences between WiF and many turn-based games is the impulse system. The Sep/Oct turn contains many "sub-turns" called impulses.
Can you take Poland in 1 impulse? I would have to say, no unless your opponent is incompetant. Can it be done in 2 or 3 impulses with reasonable skill and no bad luck? Yes.
In general, by the end of October, it is quite possible to take Poland out. Of course, poor choices or bad luck may be enough to prevent that too, especially now. I have played a bit with older versions where the weather was set for an entire turn, not as it now is for an impulse pair. If the weather turns bad, you can get bogged down.
As far as the broader question of how tied are you to the historical timeline. I would have to say only to a limited degree. It is true that the longer France or the USSR gets to build up, the harder it is to take on, but well, that is realistic. The players on both sides have so much influence on events that the historical timeline should be regarded as a rough guide only.
For example, US entry is driven by events, as well as time. The Fall of France will push the US closer to war, for example, but a French attack on Belgium to buy space to trade for time would push the US farther from war. It is barely possible for unlucky or incompetant play by the Allies to prevent the US from ever going to war in one or even both theaters. Granted, the Allies would have to behave with reckless disregard for US entry levels for this to happen, but it could.
The other fun thing is that the US entry effect of an action is varriable. Each action that impact US opinion has a die roll break-point (in practical terms, since it is a d10, multiply the number by 10 to get a %) to make the US player draw, discard, or move a random "chit". The chits have different values, so some are of negligible impact and others are of major impact. Thus, in one game, the Fall of France may cause the US to draw low value (or even 0 value) chits, while in the next, it could be high value chits. Not even the other Allies are sure of the impact.
RE: WIF board game
I could not ask for any better answers that I just received, it sounds exciting if a board came can be called exciting, not a dig just an observation. Not to keep talking about Strategic Command but thats the only comparison I have to go on and maybe 3rd Reich. In SC, England was kind of easy to take, but it ruined the game for me because the AI would be kind of befuddled with what to do next, if you did not take England it would play decent but not great. Is England hard to take in the board game against a competent allied player? Also would taking on England and possibly losing a lot of assets doing so make the invasion of Russia a lot harder in material and all other assets and in a proper time element.
I would imagine that speed was essential to the axis {Japan, Germany, and Italy} in the board game to get as many resources as it could capture before the allied growing power would start to effect the game in its later stages. I ask these questions because I believe it would help all other newbies like myself to have you experienced players to give us some insight in the games mechanics rather then phrases from rule books, not that you do that but sometimes your tech talk goes right in one ear and out the other, I know listen better. Thanks for all of your help.
Willy
I would imagine that speed was essential to the axis {Japan, Germany, and Italy} in the board game to get as many resources as it could capture before the allied growing power would start to effect the game in its later stages. I ask these questions because I believe it would help all other newbies like myself to have you experienced players to give us some insight in the games mechanics rather then phrases from rule books, not that you do that but sometimes your tech talk goes right in one ear and out the other, I know listen better. Thanks for all of your help.
Willy
RE: WIF board game
You can also read some game reports to help you understand how the game plays, and how it feels.ORIGINAL: willycube
I could not ask for any better answers that I just received, it sounds exciting if a board came can be called exciting, not a dig just an observation. Not to keep talking about Strategic Command but thats the only comparison I have to go on and maybe 3rd Reich. In SC, England was kind of easy to take, but it ruined the game for me because the AI would be kind of befuddled with what to do next, if you did not take England it would play decent but not great. Is England hard to take in the board game against a competent allied player? Also would taking on England and possibly losing a lot of assets doing so make the invasion of Russia a lot harder in material and all other assets and in a proper time element.
I would imagine that speed was essential to the axis {Japan, Germany, and Italy} in the board game to get as many resources as it could capture before the allied growing power would start to effect the game in its later stages. I ask these questions because I believe it would help all other newbies like myself to have you experienced players to give us some insight in the games mechanics rather then phrases from rule books, not that you do that but sometimes your tech talk goes right in one ear and out the other, I know listen better. Thanks for all of your help.
Willy
There are some (mine) here : http://pagesperso-orange.fr/froon/WiF/wif.htm
The latest is here : http://pagesperso-orange.fr/froon/WiF/PartieXVII.zip
You can also read the tutorials here, to get a grasp of the mechanics.
tm.asp?m=1555882
You can finaly download the rulebook for a more precise reading.
http://www.a-d-g.com.au/download/WiF-RaW-7-aug-04.doc
RE: WIF board game
Froonp thank you for showing me the battle report, what I would like to know is this kind of standard for a battle for France, It is march/april 1941 and France is still not conquered. I know you and the people you play with are experienced players, but is this an all out attack on France since May 1940? I am not comparing this to SC but if France does not fall by August or September 1940 Germany has a time problem for the build up to attack the Soviet Union by June, July, or August 1941. I know there is a huge difference between these two games but time lines should be about the same to win this game. Is France able to be defeated by the end of 1940? Does it take luck, good play, bad defence, What! Or all of the above.
Willy
Willy
-
- Posts: 268
- Joined: Sun Aug 24, 2008 6:40 pm
- Location: Sacramento, CA
RE: WIF board game
ORIGINAL: willycube
I could not ask for any better answers that I just received, it sounds exciting if a board came can be called exciting, not a dig just an observation. Not to keep talking about Strategic Command but thats the only comparison I have to go on and maybe 3rd Reich. In SC, England was kind of easy to take, but it ruined the game for me because the AI would be kind of befuddled with what to do next, if you did not take England it would play decent but not great. Is England hard to take in the board game against a competent allied player? Also would taking on England and possibly losing a lot of assets doing so make the invasion of Russia a lot harder in material and all other assets and in a proper time element.
I would imagine that speed was essential to the axis {Japan, Germany, and Italy} in the board game to get as many resources as it could capture before the allied growing power would start to effect the game in its later stages. I ask these questions because I believe it would help all other newbies like myself to have you experienced players to give us some insight in the games mechanics rather then phrases from rule books, not that you do that but sometimes your tech talk goes right in one ear and out the other, I know listen better. Thanks for all of your help.
Willy
My experience with the final version of WiF is limited to playing cWiF against myself, so I may not be the best authority, but I have tested out several strategies. The invasion of the UK is not a simple task. It requires a fair bit of luck, and a firm commitment to a building strategy. It is much more difficult than in the old computer game of 3R. Never having played A3R against another player, or SC at all, I cannot compare it to those.
It is also worthy of note that taking the UK does not mean knocking the Comonwealth out. It puts a heck of a dent in their production and force pool, but they keep fighting.
The assets lost in taking the UK are less critical than the time factor, in my opinion. In order to take the UK, you will often find yourself still fighting in summer of 1941. This does not preclude an attack on the USSR, but history tells you how that two-front war worked out for the Kaiser and for Hitler.
I agree that time is of the essence for the Axis. They must take enough resources and also enough land. Trading space for time is an important strategy.
RE: WIF board game
You may look at other game reports on the same website, you'll see that the Fall of France in our group never was so late.ORIGINAL: willycube
Froonp thank you for showing me the battle report, what I would like to know is this kind of standard for a battle for France, It is march/april 1941 and France is still not conquered. I know you and the people you play with are experienced players, but is this an all out attack on France since May 1940? I am not comparing this to SC but if France does not fall by August or September 1940 Germany has a time problem for the build up to attack the Soviet Union by June, July, or August 1941. I know there is a huge difference between these two games but time lines should be about the same to win this game. Is France able to be defeated by the end of 1940? Does it take luck, good play, bad defence, What! Or all of the above.
Willy
Typicaly France falls between J/A 40 and N/D 40.
The observed deadline for Germany being able to turn back the the East to launch Barbarossa in M/J 41 is N/D 40.
Germany has a number of tools that she can use to defeat France in the timeframe above (Offensive Chits, Armored suppremacy, Air superiority, HQ superiority, better overall army). Sheer bad luck, or a bid player skills difference can offset the timetable, but then Germany can try winning in other ways. Barbarossa is not mandatory in WiF.
RE: WIF board game
In order to defeat France quickly as a german player you need three things:ORIGINAL: Froonp
Germany has a number of tools that she can use to defeat France in the timeframe above (Offensive Chits, Armored suppremacy, Air superiority, HQ superiority, better overall army). Sheer bad luck, or a bid player skills difference can offset the timetable, but then Germany can try winning in other ways. Barbarossa is not mandatory in WiF.
1. Timing, you must carefully choose when to unleash your superior forces in the great offensive (OC)
2. A little bit of luck with the weather, there is nothing as devastating for the french player as loooong turns with fine weather...
3. You need to take calculated risks, you don't have time to "play it safe" and you can't afford to take too big risks (unless you're willing to risk losing the entire game of course)
/Oscar
RE: WIF board game
Willy, historically France was defeated (and the Low Countries overrun) incredibly quickly given the respective opponents. Pretty much everything went right for the Germans, they had a brilliant plan, the weather was perfect, their force structures and tactics were far superior, the Allies fell into their trap and probably most of all a strange paralysis afflicted the Allied High Command when it all started to go horribly wrong. They missed several opportunities to at least slow the Wehrmacht down and even to deliver a nasty reverse.
If we re-ran history there is a significant probability that the Campaign in the West would have taken the Germans quite a bit longer. Apparently this is borne out in professional military simulations. In general in WiF, it is pretty difficult to emulate the historical pace of early war Axis conquest, often because the Allied player is forewarned by the events of 70-odd years ago. The flip-side is that later in the war the Axis can have some rational leadership, unlike the disastrous pack of fruitcakes the actually had.
Cheers, Neilster
If we re-ran history there is a significant probability that the Campaign in the West would have taken the Germans quite a bit longer. Apparently this is borne out in professional military simulations. In general in WiF, it is pretty difficult to emulate the historical pace of early war Axis conquest, often because the Allied player is forewarned by the events of 70-odd years ago. The flip-side is that later in the war the Axis can have some rational leadership, unlike the disastrous pack of fruitcakes the actually had.
Cheers, Neilster
Cheers, Neilster
RE: WIF board game
ORIGINAL: willycube
I could not ask for any better answers that I just received, it sounds exciting if a board came can be called exciting, not a dig just an observation. Not to keep talking about Strategic Command but thats the only comparison I have to go on and maybe 3rd Reich. In SC, England was kind of easy to take, but it ruined the game for me because the AI would be kind of befuddled with what to do next, if you did not take England it would play decent but not great. Is England hard to take in the board game against a competent allied player? Also would taking on England and possibly losing a lot of assets doing so make the invasion of Russia a lot harder in material and all other assets and in a proper time element.
Willy
If you are speaking about Strategic Command the PC game, a game I played a lot myself and enjoyed. In terms of complexity SC can hardly be compared to what MWiF will be. I think you will like MWiF too.
Michel Desjardins,
"Patriotism is a virtue of the vicious" - Oscar Wilde
"History is a set of lies agreed upon" - Napoleon Bonaparte after the battle of Waterloo, june 18th, 1815
"Patriotism is a virtue of the vicious" - Oscar Wilde
"History is a set of lies agreed upon" - Napoleon Bonaparte after the battle of Waterloo, june 18th, 1815
- composer99
- Posts: 2931
- Joined: Mon Jun 06, 2005 8:00 am
- Location: Ottawa, Canada
- Contact:
RE: WIF board game
The Germans can usually defeat France without an offensive chit (which means two for Barb or other purposes), but they need to be luckier than if they don't use one.
In (M)WiF, you don't need to attack USSR in a Barbarossa-style campaign to win; but usually you must do some damage to the Soviet forces in 1942-43 (at the latest) to keep them from being absolute monsters in the end-game.
In (M)WiF, you don't need to attack USSR in a Barbarossa-style campaign to win; but usually you must do some damage to the Soviet forces in 1942-43 (at the latest) to keep them from being absolute monsters in the end-game.
~ Composer99
RE: WIF board game
Thanks Mich for your comment, I really wasnt trying to compare except in the time line such as France May 1940, Russia June 1941 for launching invasions, SC is a fast well done beer and pretzels game, this game seems to me at the moment heads and tails over SC in complexity and detail.ORIGINAL: micheljq
ORIGINAL: willycube
I could not ask for any better answers that I just received, it sounds exciting if a board came can be called exciting, not a dig just an observation. Not to keep talking about Strategic Command but thats the only comparison I have to go on and maybe 3rd Reich. In SC, England was kind of easy to take, but it ruined the game for me because the AI would be kind of befuddled with what to do next, if you did not take England it would play decent but not great. Is England hard to take in the board game against a competent allied player? Also would taking on England and possibly losing a lot of assets doing so make the invasion of Russia a lot harder in material and all other assets and in a proper time element.
Willy
If you are speaking about Strategic Command the PC game, a game I played a lot myself and enjoyed. In terms of complexity SC can hardly be compared to what MWiF will be. I think you will like MWiF too.
Willy
RE: WIF board game
Composer are you saying Russia cannot be defeated in this game, they could not be beaten historical but I do hope that Germany has a chance to beat them just not inflict a lot of damage and then attempt to hold on for dear life. Not being argumenatve just trying to learn from you and other players how this games paramaters are dealt with.ORIGINAL: composer99
The Germans can usually defeat France without an offensive chit (which means two for Barb or other purposes), but they need to be luckier than if they don't use one.
In (M)WiF, you don't need to attack USSR in a Barbarossa-style campaign to win; but usually you must do some damage to the Soviet forces in 1942-43 (at the latest) to keep them from being absolute monsters in the end-game.
Willy
RE: WIF board game
It can indeed be done. Just remember air supply missions can render a couple of bypassed flipped over out-of-supply cavalry units the ability to cutoff an entire army group..
- composer99
- Posts: 2931
- Joined: Mon Jun 06, 2005 8:00 am
- Location: Ottawa, Canada
- Contact:
RE: WIF board game
Russia can be defeated in (M)WiF; the point is Germany doesn't have to go for it every game.
~ Composer99
RE: WIF board game
If not playing with the amphib optional rule, France can help The CW attempt an early conquest of Italy, in which case you can count on France being vichied early as well (whether or not the gambit succeeds), due to the forces that would be guarding Paris being tied up in Italy.ORIGINAL: Neilster
If we re-ran history there is a significant probability that the Campaign in the West would have taken the Germans quite a bit longer.
"The creative combination lays bare the presumption of a lie." -- Lasker
Keith Henderson
Keith Henderson
RE: WIF board game
I haven't played in a while, but I always found that France was more of a b!+ch to take out than the historical timeline.
For the question of historical timeline, I'd say that it diverges from historical with the first dice thrown. The beauty of the system is that though it divergest, players must generally play with historical constraints. Enjoy.
For the question of historical timeline, I'd say that it diverges from historical with the first dice thrown. The beauty of the system is that though it divergest, players must generally play with historical constraints. Enjoy.
ORIGINAL: willycube
Froonp thank you for showing me the battle report, what I would like to know is this kind of standard for a battle for France, It is march/april 1941 and France is still not conquered. I know you and the people you play with are experienced players, but is this an all out attack on France since May 1940? I am not comparing this to SC but if France does not fall by August or September 1940 Germany has a time problem for the build up to attack the Soviet Union by June, July, or August 1941. I know there is a huge difference between these two games but time lines should be about the same to win this game. Is France able to be defeated by the end of 1940? Does it take luck, good play, bad defence, What! Or all of the above.
Willy
RE: WIF board game
I've never seen it done. I've only played say 7 or 8 games, though. I think that it is nigh on impossible.
I would say that it's "possible" for Germany/Japan to "win", but often this involves either doing better in the game than they historically or the allies giving up when they realize that they can't win.
Thoughts?
I would say that it's "possible" for Germany/Japan to "win", but often this involves either doing better in the game than they historically or the allies giving up when they realize that they can't win.
Thoughts?
ORIGINAL: willycube
Composer are you saying Russia cannot be defeated in this game, they could not be beaten historical but I do hope that Germany has a chance to beat them just not inflict a lot of damage and then attempt to hold on for dear life. Not being argumenatve just trying to learn from you and other players how this games paramaters are dealt with.ORIGINAL: composer99
The Germans can usually defeat France without an offensive chit (which means two for Barb or other purposes), but they need to be luckier than if they don't use one.
In (M)WiF, you don't need to attack USSR in a Barbarossa-style campaign to win; but usually you must do some damage to the Soviet forces in 1942-43 (at the latest) to keep them from being absolute monsters in the end-game.
Willy
ORIGINAL: composer99
Russia can be defeated in (M)WiF; the point is Germany doesn't have to go for it every game.