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german navy and the somali pirates.... - 3/9/2009 1:58:14 PM   
bigbaba


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hi all,

the german frigate “Rheinland-Pfalz” captured (for the first time) some somali pirates while they tried to board a merchant ship few days ago. and now this bastards are treated more like VIP passangers then as what they are...brutal murders and criminals.

they have a private sun deck, halal food specialy cooked for them and even their own toilet, which is cleaned by german sailors every day. i think they have it better then in "freedom" in somalia.

the most absurd thing is, that they even can ask for political asylum while the frigate is on the way to kenya. and if they do so, they will be brought to germany and get even benefits from the german social system. and i even think they would be treated even much better on board of a royal navy ship.

realy good to know that the german regime is spending my tax money so "usefull".

its realy a true story from the "absurdistan" of the modern germany. i only can hope that this sons of a bitch are treated completley different when a US, french, chinese, indian...ship captures them.



< Message edited by bigbaba -- 3/9/2009 1:59:33 PM >
Post #: 1
RE: german navy and the somali pirates.... - 3/9/2009 2:08:46 PM   
sterckxe


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From: Flanders
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quote:

ORIGINAL: bigbaba
are treated completley different when a US, french,


Exactly the same - you can bet on it.

quote:

ORIGINAL: bigbaba
chinese, indian...ship captures them.


Different story - a .50 might have an "accidental" discharge and there might be nothing and no-one left to capture ...

Has everyone already forgotten how to deal with pirates ?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barbary_pirates

Greetz,

Eddy Sterckx

(in reply to bigbaba)
Post #: 2
RE: german navy and the somali pirates.... - 3/9/2009 3:30:31 PM   
105mm Howitzer


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Sad, but true.

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RE: german navy and the somali pirates.... - 3/9/2009 4:02:00 PM   
SireChaos

 

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At least the German navy is doing something. They also foiled two attacks late last year. What is everyone else doing?

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RE: german navy and the somali pirates.... - 3/9/2009 4:27:12 PM   
Zakhal


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Well atleast they will be more willing to surrender when you dont execute them as soon as they drop weapons. People always come back for revenge if they are mistreated.

< Message edited by Zakhal -- 3/9/2009 4:28:52 PM >


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(in reply to SireChaos)
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RE: german navy and the somali pirates.... - 3/9/2009 5:17:09 PM   
sterckxe


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Zakhal
Well atleast they will be more willing to surrender when you dont execute them as soon as they drop weapons. People always come back for revenge if they are mistreated.


You're maybe mistakenly thinking they somehow fall under the Geneva convention - they don't - a couple of those pirate boats "mysteriously disappearing at sea" will send a message loud and clear, all the rest is a waste of time and money.

Greetz,

Eddy Sterckx

(in reply to Zakhal)
Post #: 6
RE: german navy and the somali pirates.... - 3/9/2009 5:24:43 PM   
06 Maestro


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Zakhal

Well atleast they will be more willing to surrender when you dont execute them as soon as they drop weapons. People always come back for revenge if they are mistreated.


True; so the right way to handle this is to give an official statement that they are in a confidential prison, but make then walk the plank (after finding some sharks). There should be ample pictures and films made while they are still alive.



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RE: german navy and the somali pirates.... - 3/9/2009 5:27:40 PM   
planner 3

 

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MY comment "Stand by to Ram"

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RE: german navy and the somali pirates.... - 3/9/2009 5:55:21 PM   
bigbaba


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quote:

ORIGINAL: sterckxe

quote:

ORIGINAL: Zakhal
Well atleast they will be more willing to surrender when you dont execute them as soon as they drop weapons. People always come back for revenge if they are mistreated.


You're maybe mistakenly thinking they somehow fall under the Geneva convention - they don't - a couple of those pirate boats "mysteriously disappearing at sea" will send a message loud and clear, all the rest is a waste of time and money.

Greetz,

Eddy Sterckx



thats very true. where is the risk for the pirates when they know that they can attack and kill people and if things go wrong, they can simply surrender and get a better life and treatment then in their own country?

its like saying to someone that he can run around and shoot people and the police will not harm him.

(in reply to sterckxe)
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RE: german navy and the somali pirates.... - 3/9/2009 6:46:38 PM   
Kuokkanen

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: bigbaba

its like saying to someone that he can run around and shoot people and the police will not harm him.

I thought police don't harm anyone if they don't have to...

[edit]
And if police uses excessive force, or anything else that can be interpreted as such, polices in question may get charges about it

< Message edited by Matti Kuokkanen -- 3/9/2009 6:47:38 PM >


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RE: german navy and the somali pirates.... - 3/9/2009 6:53:03 PM   
doomtrader


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Terrorists should be shoot on sight.

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RE: german navy and the somali pirates.... - 3/9/2009 8:19:37 PM   
leastonh1


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quote:

ORIGINAL: doomtrader
Terrorists should be shoot on sight.

That's too quick!

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RE: german navy and the somali pirates.... - 3/9/2009 8:27:22 PM   
Capt. Harlock


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It might discourage a number of pirates if the merchant ships started spraying a mix of pork fat, alcohol, and dog hair out of their fire hoses . . .

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RE: german navy and the somali pirates.... - 3/9/2009 8:57:04 PM   
Goblin


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I have to agree with doomtrader and Jim. Piracy was eradicated in the Caribbean/Gulf/Atlantic areas once, and it wasn't by giving the pirates a sun deck.

I don't think it's any Navy's fault, but their civilian bosses instead.

There may be a side effect though - the pirates may just start hitting ships and then surrendering immediately to get a very nice life (in comparison to what they currently have). End of piracy!

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RE: german navy and the somali pirates.... - 3/9/2009 10:25:35 PM   
Ike99


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quote:

SireChaos-At least the German navy is doing something. They also foiled two attacks late last year. What is everyone else doing?


If the result of ¨doing something¨ is bringing Somali pirates to live in Germany, probably better to do nothing then.

quote:

Bigbabba-..the most absurd thing is, that they even can ask for political asylum while the frigate is on the way to kenya. and if they do so, they will be brought to germany and get even benefits from the german social system.


Very absurd. These people come from a place where they cut journalist to pieces in daylight, middle of the street for sport and then walk away. No problems.

Probably not a good idea to be bringing these people to living in Germany.

(in reply to SireChaos)
Post #: 15
RE: german navy and the somali pirates.... - 3/10/2009 3:37:28 PM   
SireChaos

 

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From: Frankfurt, Germany
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Ike99

quote:

SireChaos-At least the German navy is doing something. They also foiled two attacks late last year. What is everyone else doing?


If the result of ¨doing something¨ is bringing Somali pirates to live in Germany, probably better to do nothing then.

quote:

Bigbabba-..the most absurd thing is, that they even can ask for political asylum while the frigate is on the way to kenya. and if they do so, they will be brought to germany and get even benefits from the german social system.


Very absurd. These people come from a place where they cut journalist to pieces in daylight, middle of the street for sport and then walk away. No problems.

Probably not a good idea to be bringing these people to living in Germany.



I doubt anything like that is going to happen, except in your imagination.

It may be okay for a bunch of barbarians to just kill everyone and let Allah sort them out... fortunately our Navy is more civilized. Guys, if Germany has to give you advice about ethics in warfare, you´re really, really screwed.

And I repeat my questions: what are you paragons of morality and your fancy navies doing to fight piracy? I mean, except criticize those who actually fight it?

(in reply to Ike99)
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RE: german navy and the somali pirates.... - 3/10/2009 4:28:09 PM   
doomtrader


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SireChaos, you are talking about warfare, but who has declared war? Please don't take it personally but Germany is one of the last countries that are allowing to teach ethics (especially warfare).

Those pirates/terrorists are attacking innocent people without any other reason than just getting reach.
Go to honest work Somali pirates otherwise I'll vote to shoot you all.

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RE: german navy and the somali pirates.... - 3/10/2009 4:28:46 PM   
bigbaba


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From: Koblenz, Germany
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 not only in his imagination, chaos.

if this pirate bastards would get a "stuppid leftist multi-kulti advocat", they would easily have the option to come to germany, seek asylum and walk around as free men because the german state attorney said it will not accuse this men although they tried to hijak a german ship. thats a fact in germany in year 2009 and no imagination. we can be happy that they were too stuppid to do that and are now in kenya.

the germans only tend to be extremists....60 years earlier extremly right and nazis and now extremly left and appeasers. and i say that as someone who was not born in germany.


< Message edited by bigbaba -- 3/10/2009 4:30:59 PM >

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RE: german navy and the somali pirates.... - 3/10/2009 5:13:40 PM   
Ike99


Posts: 1747
Joined: 1/1/2006
From: A Sand Road
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quote:

I doubt anything like that is going to happen, except in your imagination.


I have heard of stranger things.

quote:

It may be okay for a bunch of barbarians to just kill everyone and let Allah sort them out... fortunately our Navy is more civilized. Guys, if Germany has to give you advice about ethics in warfare, you´re really, really screwed.


I hear what your saying Sire. You don´t need to take being civilized all the way out to being ridiculous. Bringing Somali pirates to live in Germany is this. These peoples problems are not Germanys problems.

Unless you agree this person can stay at your home tonight.




Attachment (1)

< Message edited by Ike99 -- 3/10/2009 5:14:36 PM >

(in reply to SireChaos)
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RE: german navy and the somali pirates.... - 3/10/2009 7:46:53 PM   
dogancan

 

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Shooting those terrorists on the first sight??? First, there is a right & ethical way to treat suspects, even if they are terrorists; and that is the point which differentiates terrorism and wrong-politics from the right one. And second, apparently, in the mind of many people in the ‘West’, any criminal can be regarded as a terrorist, supposed that he is a muslim. May I remind you that these pirates do not mostly kill people on those ships. In essence, their crime is little more than an organised theft. So, I wonder what makes them terrorists, and what differentiates them from, say the French mafia in Marseilles, which kills, and thefts, and smuggles? Is it their religion?

About caricaturising Somalians as blood-drinking primitives, well I do not see necessary to write anything on that. Actually, I have never been at Somalie. But I have read the writings of numerous Western travellers/researches who wrote like 1700s and 1800s. They were telling similar stories about Indians, Africans, Asians, and nearly all the people except their own ‘civilised’ ones. So I know how a biased-eye can transform the reality. Thankfully, we, the people of the 21st century, know the meanings of the words like “orientalism” and “ethnocentrism”. Google them, no society is as primitive as you might think.

And lastly, these people are surely criminals against who some kind of international law should be developed. But again, this does not make them "blood-thirsty criminal terrorists". Their crimes, as any other crime, do have some social basis. And even, some of these pirates are people who intend to defend their own natural resources, or do these crimes as a response.  If you have a little time to pause on arguing on the subject, and read on it, please See this one: http://www.independent.co.uk/opinion/commentators/johann-hari/johann-hari-you-are-being-lied-to-about-pirates-1225817.html

As you see, this problem is not as simple and straightforward as it seems. And the responsibility of these crimes are not entirely on these guys, there is something called Social Criminology. Oh, having talked about the causes of organised crimes, I can also tell you a nice story about a long bearded Frankenstein whose fundamentalist-extremist views were once supported by a country which supposedly favour freedom.  But that can be too much for here; it is better to let people think with their simple scheme of good guys fighting the bad guys...

< Message edited by dogancan -- 3/10/2009 7:52:42 PM >

(in reply to Ike99)
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RE: german navy and the somali pirates.... - 3/10/2009 8:07:12 PM   
doomtrader


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quote:

and what differentiates them from, say the French mafia in Marseilles, which kills, and thefts, and smuggles?

Nothing, they should be shoot too.

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RE: german navy and the somali pirates.... - 3/10/2009 9:28:07 PM   
anarchyintheuk

 

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I like simple schemes . . . . pirate = bad guy, people who kill pirates = good guys. Thanks for boiling it down to the essentials for me.

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RE: german navy and the somali pirates.... - 3/10/2009 10:16:02 PM   
Lützow


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One could argue that terrorists, or partisans, still can call upon political concerns, while pirates solely hunt and kill for money. Thus they deserve to walk the plank in my opinion. Anyway, I think it's better that Kenya took these guys and we don't have to deal with them.

(in reply to anarchyintheuk)
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RE: german navy and the somali pirates.... - 3/11/2009 1:44:14 AM   
Ike99


Posts: 1747
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quote:

Shooting those terrorists on the first sight??? First, there is a right & ethical way to treat suspects, even if they are terrorists; and that is the point which differentiates terrorism and wrong-politics from the right one. And second, apparently, in the mind of many people in the ‘West’, any criminal can be regarded as a terrorist, supposed that he is a muslim. May I remind you that these pirates do not mostly kill people on those ships. In essence, their crime is little more than an organised theft. So, I wonder what makes them terrorists, and what differentiates them from, say the French mafia in Marseilles, which kills, and thefts, and smuggles? Is it their religion?


No, not their religion or politics.

Politics and religion is not here. Pirates do not do what they do for any higher political or religous cause.

Pirates do what pirates do for piracy. Armed, organized and often violent theft for profit. Profit, this is the cause.

quote:

I remind you that these pirates do not mostly kill people on those ships.


I see, they don´t ¨mostly¨ kill people on these ships.

quote:

About caricaturising Somalians as blood-drinking primitives, well I do not see necessary to write anything on that. Actually, I have never been at Somalie. But I have read the writings of numerous Western travellers/researches who wrote like 1700s and 1800s. They were telling similar stories about Indians, Africans, Asians, and nearly all the people except their own ‘civilised’ ones. So I know how a biased-eye can transform the reality.


I think the caricature is more than less accurate.

No national working government.

No national working banking system.

No national working communications system.

No national currency.

No national education system.

No merchant navy.

No national working police force.

No national working army, navy or airforce.

No working legal system.

Etc. etc. etc.

What they do have a lot of is, kidnapping, murder, Inter-clan and inter-factional warfare, unpredictable armed conflicts, violent riots, area clan governance claiming local authority including the Islamic Courts Union who called for the banning of playing football.

I think I have a close to accurate understanding of Somalia.

quote:

Actually, I have never been at Somalie.


My advice, keep it this way.





Attachment (1)

(in reply to dogancan)
Post #: 24
RE: german navy and the somali pirates.... - 3/11/2009 10:47:25 PM   
vonRocko

 

Posts: 1447
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Ike99

quote:

Shooting those terrorists on the first sight??? First, there is a right & ethical way to treat suspects, even if they are terrorists; and that is the point which differentiates terrorism and wrong-politics from the right one. And second, apparently, in the mind of many people in the ‘West’, any criminal can be regarded as a terrorist, supposed that he is a muslim. May I remind you that these pirates do not mostly kill people on those ships. In essence, their crime is little more than an organised theft. So, I wonder what makes them terrorists, and what differentiates them from, say the French mafia in Marseilles, which kills, and thefts, and smuggles? Is it their religion?


No, not their religion or politics.

Politics and religion is not here. Pirates do not do what they do for any higher political or religous cause.

Pirates do what pirates do for piracy. Armed, organized and often violent theft for profit. Profit, this is the cause.

quote:

I remind you that these pirates do not mostly kill people on those ships.


I see, they don´t ¨mostly¨ kill people on these ships.

quote:

About caricaturising Somalians as blood-drinking primitives, well I do not see necessary to write anything on that. Actually, I have never been at Somalie. But I have read the writings of numerous Western travellers/researches who wrote like 1700s and 1800s. They were telling similar stories about Indians, Africans, Asians, and nearly all the people except their own ‘civilised’ ones. So I know how a biased-eye can transform the reality.


I think the caricature is more than less accurate.

No national working government.

No national working banking system.

No national working communications system.

No national currency.

No national education system.

No merchant navy.

No national working police force.

No national working army, navy or airforce.

No working legal system.

Etc. etc. etc.

What they do have a lot of is, kidnapping, murder, Inter-clan and inter-factional warfare, unpredictable armed conflicts, violent riots, area clan governance claiming local authority including the Islamic Courts Union who called for the banning of playing football.

I think I have a close to accurate understanding of Somalia.

quote:

Actually, I have never been at Somalie.


My advice, keep it this way.







Ahh shoot! There goes my summer vacation plans
I wonder if Iran is pretty in July?

(in reply to Ike99)
Post #: 25
RE: german navy and the somali pirates.... - 3/12/2009 12:08:46 AM   
Sarge


Posts: 2841
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From: ask doggie
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quote:

ORIGINAL: SireChaos
At least the German navy is doing something. They also foiled two attacks late last year. What is everyone else doing?

Sorry for the inconvenience but the USN is a-little busy right now……..


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Post #: 26
RE: german navy and the somali pirates.... - 3/12/2009 12:18:00 AM   
Mac67

 

Posts: 496
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From: Essex, England
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quote:

ORIGINAL: SireChaos

At least the German navy is doing something. They also foiled two attacks late last year. What is everyone else doing?


The RN have been doing there bit -

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/africa/article5141745.ece

Or did you think that you were the only ones out there?

(in reply to SireChaos)
Post #: 27
RE: german navy and the somali pirates.... - 3/12/2009 4:44:23 AM   
Jeffrey H.


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From: San Diego, Ca.
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quote:

ORIGINAL: dogancan

May I remind you that these pirates do not mostly kill people on those ships.



Ummm yeah, not mostly. Just sorta slightly like. Sure.

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Post #: 28
RE: german navy and the somali pirates.... - 3/12/2009 5:24:48 AM   
Grell

 

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From: Canada
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Goblin

I have to agree with doomtrader and Jim. Piracy was eradicated in the Caribbean/Gulf/Atlantic areas once, and it wasn't by giving the pirates a sun deck.

I don't think it's any Navy's fault, but their civilian bosses instead.

There may be a side effect though - the pirates may just start hitting ships and then surrendering immediately to get a very nice life (in comparison to what they currently have). End of piracy!


Well said Goblin!

Regards,

Grell



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Post #: 29
RE: german navy and the somali pirates.... - 3/12/2009 8:24:14 AM   
bigbaba


Posts: 1238
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From: Koblenz, Germany
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@dogancan:

not insulting you, but someone from a country with a extremly fascistic and islamistic society in which talking about the genocide on 2.000.000 armenian christians by the muslims during WW1 is a crime and also a law exists against "insulting turkey" is the last person here who has the right to speak about morale and ethic here.

i would say the same about myself and germany when my country would deny the holocaust. so dont take it personally. understand it as critisism of turkey and the turkish society.

@Gobli:

could not say it better. 100% agree on how to eliminate the pirate problem.

(in reply to Grell)
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