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Lock 'n load vs squad leader - 2/16/2009 12:39:13 AM   
Titanwarrior89


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I have been looking at buying LnL and currently still play SL(not ASL). So what is the difference? To me they look very similiar. Just updated graphics. I have been to the LnL web site and read the material on the game system but see no real difference.

Will someone please bring me up to speed on LnL game system.

< Message edited by Titanwarrior89 -- 2/16/2009 1:05:13 AM >


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RE: Lock 'n load vs squad leader - 2/16/2009 12:41:41 AM   
Erik Rutins

 

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Just my opinion, but LnL to me is a faster playing, less rules-heavy but just as realistic re-make of Squad Leader.

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RE: Lock 'n load vs squad leader - 2/16/2009 12:52:50 AM   
Titanwarrior89


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Ok, thanks Erik. I was just wondering. Trying to make up my mind wether to purchase or not.
quote:

ORIGINAL: Erik Rutins

Just my opinion, but LnL to me is a faster playing, less rules-heavy but just as realistic re-make of Squad Leader.



_____________________________

"Before Guadalcanal the enemy advanced at his pleasure. After Guadalcanal, he retreated at ours".

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RE: Lock 'n load vs squad leader - 2/16/2009 1:20:34 AM   
GJK


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I would download the rules from the L-n-L website and have a good look at them. I found them to be difficult to interpret and full of loopholes. Lots of dice rolling involved too (i.e., lots of luck). I much prefer the ASL Starter Kits which you can get much cheaper and if you are coming from SL, you'll be able to jump right in with no problems.

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RE: Lock 'n load vs squad leader - 2/16/2009 2:25:11 AM   
Barthheart


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Well... maybe the ASL starter kits are easier to get into but this long time SL player bought into ASL right at the start and promtly got nowhere. ASL rulebook, Beyond Valour, and Paratrooper sit pretty much unused on my shelf. Not knocking ASL it just wasn't for me.... and I loved SL+CoI+CoD+GIAoV.

The Band of Heros series however I find much more accessable. Few rules faster play as Eric said.

Try the system out. There is a print and play demo that's free.
http://www.locknloadgame.com/_store/download.asp?Category=11

If you don't want to print and play try the demo out on VASSAL. You'll also get to see all the cool stuff they added with the expansions.

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RE: Lock 'n load vs squad leader - 2/16/2009 2:34:57 AM   
CapnDarwin


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L'nL has many games that are easy to get into and play, but take some skill and tactics to when. I really enjoy his World at War series and have dabbled in Band of Heros. Check out L'nL website, Board Game Geek, and Consim World for reviews and info.

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RE: Lock 'n load vs squad leader - 2/16/2009 5:10:26 AM   
Jeffrey H.


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Don't overlook GMT's Combat Commander Series.

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RE: Lock 'n load vs squad leader - 2/16/2009 8:16:39 AM   
GJK


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Barthheart

Well... maybe the ASL starter kits are easier to get into


They are. Much easier.

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RE: Lock 'n load vs squad leader - 2/16/2009 12:32:01 PM   
Erik Rutins

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: GJK
They are. Much easier.


Yep, the Starter Kits are great, it's just my personal preference that I was talking about above. I've played SL, ASL and LnL and had fun with all of them.


_____________________________

Erik Rutins
CEO, Matrix Games LLC




For official support, please use our Help Desk: http://www.matrixgames.com/helpdesk/

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RE: Lock 'n load vs squad leader - 2/16/2009 12:43:19 PM   
Adam Parker


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Titanwarrior89

I have been looking at buying LnL and currently still play SL(not ASL). So what is the difference?


Having played both systems, here is the biggest difference:

With ASL you read 20-30 pages of rules and you'll be playing with infantry and terrain.

With LnL you read 20-30 pages of rules and you'll be playing with inf, ATG's, ATW's, Tanks, helicopters, Arty, OBA, Mortars etc. You get the picture.

Now, when I bought Matrix's release of LnL Band of Brothers, from what I recall, the V1 rules were around 20 pages and written in a casual manner - that's Mark's way. I needed to reconcile them into 3 pages of charts and then I was away playing.

Having now recently bought (and yet to play) LnL Day of Heroes, I've noticed the rules have expanded to around 30 pages. This could be a good thing clarification-wise. But it does imply a longer learning curve than before. More reading at least for my tired eyes!

My advice is to go to the LnL website and look at the example of play movie Mark has put together. It gives you a good taste of the LnL philosophy - what Mark has tried to do with the game.

And remember, one big quirk of Mark's designs: They are very informaton-counter heavy. That said, having had ASL for so long and forgotten it, it was such a confidence booster to move tanks and ATG's around in my first ever LnL game and know what I was doing.

Hope that helps!
Adam.

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RE: Lock 'n load vs squad leader - 2/16/2009 3:24:34 PM   
GJK


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Actually, it's 28 pages (with 3 of those pages being full page examples) in ASL SK#3 and you'll be playing with infantry, Guns and Tanks and more - just to clarify.

I'm sure that the LnL system is fun to play and I'd love to try it. I actually own Day of Heroes and made a ZunTzu gamebox for online play for it, but I can't get through the rules. Maybe I'm just too heavily engrossed in ASL but it drives me crazy when the rules interchangeably imply positive modifiers to the FP with negative modifiers on the die rolls. Yes, it works out to be the same thing, but use one method and stick to it throughout the rules and the charts. There were a number of other similar issues and I may be nitpicking, but it's the precise style of writing that the ASL rulebook uses that I like - there's no gray area as to what is or isn't allowed.

However, Day of Heroes does look great and I'd love to learn how to play it some day! Also anxiously awaiting the PC version of the game - the screenshots and videos of the gameplay that I've seen have been very impressive.

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RE: Lock 'n load vs squad leader - 2/17/2009 12:03:58 AM   
Titanwarrior89


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Thanks for the information guys. Also looked at the Pacific war combat commander. GMT's maps looked small and not as polished. Just my two cents
quote:

ORIGINAL: Jeffrey H.

Don't overlook GMT's Combat Commander Series.



< Message edited by Titanwarrior89 -- 2/17/2009 12:04:30 AM >


_____________________________

"Before Guadalcanal the enemy advanced at his pleasure. After Guadalcanal, he retreated at ours".

"Mama, There's Rabbits in the Garden"

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RE: Lock 'n load vs squad leader - 2/17/2009 4:27:21 AM   
GJK


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This one (Valor & Victory) is free to print and play and reports to be easy to learn and quick to play. I'd make a ZunTzu gamebox for it and play it on the computer instead of actually printing it out.

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RE: Lock 'n load vs squad leader - 2/17/2009 3:42:12 PM   
Marc von Martial


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Titanwarrior89
So what is the difference? To me they look very similiar.


A big difference is that you can teach it in 20 minutes to a friend and you play a wargame.
With ASL you probably tach 20 hours and you still not play.

quote:

Just updated graphics.


Come on

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Post #: 14
Slightly OT: Lock 'n load vs squad leader - 2/17/2009 8:03:23 PM   
Greyshaft


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I once saw a tabletop setup using a representation of Europe from Berlin to Moscow in a WW2 miniatures battle. This was 20+ years ago

* Berlin and Moscow were 3-4 houses each
* Riga was a bunker and an outhouse

TOE was scaled down but still proportional eg each Panzer division was one tank and each infantry div was 2-3 squads. Terrain and distances was accurate and there had obviously been a lot of effort go into research for this scenario.

It looked great! I never got into miniatures but that kind of battle really tempted me to start. Has anyone ever done a similar thing for Squad Leader/LnL ?


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RE: Slightly OT: Lock 'n load vs squad leader - 2/17/2009 8:50:47 PM   
GJK


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Greyshaft

I once saw a tabletop setup using a representation of Europe from Berlin to Moscow in a WW2 miniatures battle. This was 20+ years ago

* Berlin and Moscow were 3-4 houses each
* Riga was a bunker and an outhouse

TOE was scaled down but still proportional eg each Panzer division was one tank and each infantry div was 2-3 squads. Terrain and distances was accurate and there had obviously been a lot of effort go into research for this scenario.

It looked great! I never got into miniatures but that kind of battle really tempted me to start. Has anyone ever done a similar thing for Squad Leader/LnL ?



Not on that scale, but HERE is some ASL being played with miniatures.

On teaching ASL - the SK's are very easy to teach. I spent about an hour teaching a guy how to play online using Skype and VASL who had *never* played any type of wargame in his life (though he is a WWII buff). That hour included the time it took to walk him through a Skype and VASL set up. We're pbem'ing a game now and he's humming along.

Speaking of pbem'ing these tactical games, how well does the LnL system work via pbem? ASL does have what you might call "reactionary fire" during your opponents movement phase, but it works just fine in VASL if you make a few moves, send your log back to see what type of fire you draw and then continue on with additional moves. I imagine that it would work in a similar way for LnL since it too has reaction/opportunity fire.

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RE: Slightly OT: Lock 'n load vs squad leader - 2/18/2009 7:15:32 AM   
Doc o War


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Well- its not a board game- but what about Battlefront's Combat Mission series- ASL on computer basically- without having to learn endless pages of rules. I have played Combat Mission in all three of its WW2 series though I didnt transition with the game when it went to modern era war- still- it's a favorite- I still play it regularily 10 years into it. There is a pretty stable community of players out there also. And hundreds of scenarios. I have a collection that includes many SL and ASL scenarios turned into Combat Mission scenarios.
  Just my 2 cents. Naturally this isnt a board game solution.

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RE: Slightly OT: Lock 'n load vs squad leader - 2/19/2009 12:08:17 AM   
Titanwarrior89


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I still play all of the combat mission games. I am in a Pbem playing Shock force. Great easy Pbem system they have for it.
quote:

ORIGINAL: Doc o War

Well- its not a board game- but what about Battlefront's Combat Mission series- ASL on computer basically- without having to learn endless pages of rules. I have played Combat Mission in all three of its WW2 series though I didnt transition with the game when it went to modern era war- still- it's a favorite- I still play it regularily 10 years into it. There is a pretty stable community of players out there also. And hundreds of scenarios. I have a collection that includes many SL and ASL scenarios turned into Combat Mission scenarios.
  Just my 2 cents. Naturally this isnt a board game solution.



_____________________________

"Before Guadalcanal the enemy advanced at his pleasure. After Guadalcanal, he retreated at ours".

"Mama, There's Rabbits in the Garden"

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RE: Slightly OT: Lock 'n load vs squad leader - 2/19/2009 2:38:24 PM   
Peter Fisla


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I like ASL very much but that doesn't mean I'm using the whole 300 pounds rulebook. I'm currently slowly transitioning from ASLSK to full ASL. Here are some really really good ASLSK tutorials, this will help you a lot trying to understand the core of ASL:


An ASLSK Tutorial (Part 1)
Squads, Leaders, Basic Sequence of Play

http://www.boardgamegeek.com/thread/157922

An ASLSK Tutorial (Part 2)
Support Weapons

http://www.boardgamegeek.com/thread/166941

An ASLSK Tutorial (Part 3)
Infantry in Battle

http://www.boardgamegeek.com/thread/169542

An ASLSK Tutorial (Part 4)
Ordnance and the To Hit Process

http://www.boardgamegeek.com/thread/177157

An ASLSK Tutorial (Part 5)
Tanks

http://www.boardgamegeek.com/thread/361467

In-depth explanations of specific ASLSK rules:

Explanation of ROF (and Defensive Fire)
http://www.boardgamegeek.com/thread/88350

Explanation of the Rout Phase
http://www.boardgamegeek.com/thread/122340

The reason why I'm mentioning ASL is because ASLSK is easy to get into, the introductory modules are quite cheap yet have nice selection of scenarios. once you feel comfortable with ASLSK you can explore the world of ASL is full of interesting scenarios (3000+) as well as historical modules. The important thing is that ASLSK is essentially the core of ASL, so 95% of what you learn in ASLSK still applies to full ASL.

Besides ASL I also like ATS - Advanced Tobruk System from Critical Hit...it's a tactical WW2 system, I especially like the AFV combat rules. ATS is not as complex as ASL and has quite large scenarios/historical modules selection.

I looked into Lock 'n Load and to me it just didn't offer enough in terms of scenarios or campaigns. I wanted something more deeper and something that's been around for a while to make sure rules are solid.

< Message edited by Peter Fisla -- 2/19/2009 2:49:35 PM >

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RE: Slightly OT: Lock 'n load vs squad leader - 2/19/2009 9:36:37 PM   
Barthheart


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Peter,

Thanks for those links. Make me almost want to try the system again.

_____________________________

Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty & well preserved body,
but rather to skid in broadside, totally worn out & proclaiming "WOW, what a ride!"

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RE: Slightly OT: Lock 'n load vs squad leader - 2/20/2009 2:03:25 PM   
Peter Fisla


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Barthheart

Peter,

Thanks for those links. Make me almost want to try the system again.


I have to say those tutorials are really really good, it will help a lot to read them for new players.

(in reply to Barthheart)
Post #: 21
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