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General observations from the tester(s) - 2/11/2009 3:33:27 PM   
Yamato hugger

 

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One thing I think makes AE enjoyable to me is the unknown. You really dont know what the allies have where after the first few turns. And their reinforcements. Gone are the days of evaccing fragments by sub and rebuilding whole divisions from a squad. The forcepools (on both sides) are greatly reduced (Im used to starting with 700+ Nates in the pool and I think I have 40 now). Because of the restricted commands, the allies will fight harder from the get go rather than using history to run away.

But the really big thing is, theres a lot of ocean out there. AE circles the globe so the allies can appear almost anywhere unlike stock where they can only come in from the 2 top corners of the map so you can bottle them up (and CHS not many more options). You dont know at a glance what airfields and ports are occupied so you can send in subs to interdict and run a CV raid through the area.

Recon is king in AE. I was an infantry squad leader in the army (among many other things I did) so I know what it feels like to lead troops into a fire fight, but Ive never had to stand back and watch it happen. AE really give me that feeling. In my last game vs Tree as my landing forces closed on the Bismark barrier, I really felt a sense of a commander sending his troops into harms way. I know there is at least 1 CL in the area and Rabul of course is a serious threat because of the airbase, yet I had no cover forces to spare for them. As each turn passed, my troops and ships crept closer waiting for some report from my long range recon from Truk to give me something, ANYTHING on what was going on out there.

People are going to have a lot of fun with this game. Especially at first, before they get used to what is where and when stuff comes in.

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RE: General observations from the tester(s) - 2/11/2009 3:57:21 PM   
herwin

 

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Intel is king in naval warfare--there's no place to hide in an ambush. I'm really looking forward to this edition.

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Post #: 2
RE: General observations from the tester(s) - 2/11/2009 4:29:02 PM   
witpqs


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From: Argleton
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Yamato hugger

One thing I think makes AE enjoyable to me is the unknown.


It's unknown to most of us. You are such a tease!


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Post #: 3
RE: General observations from the tester(s) - 2/11/2009 4:35:24 PM   
Chad Harrison


Posts: 1395
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From: Boise, ID - USA
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Yamato hugger

. . .

Gone are the days of evaccing fragments by sub and rebuilding whole divisions from a squad. The forcepools (on both sides) are greatly reduced (Im used to starting with 700+ Nates in the pool and I think I have 40 now).

. . .



As with your AAR, thanks for posting any insight into AE! As you can see, we are all quite . . . excited for it

I just wanted to see if you could expound on this statement and/or answer a few questions:

1. Outside of the lack of replacements and/or unit withdraws, is there anything else that will prevent the player from withdrawing fragments and rebuilding them? In other words, in vanilla WitP, as long as one squad or devise survived, that entire division could be rebuilt. In AE, will that lone squad/devise just disband and the unit is lost? Or, will it rebuild ala vanilla WitP? (obviously pending adequate devices in the pool)

2. Andy (IIRC) posted awhile back that after squads upgrade, the original squads are returned and upgraded in the pool. In other words, my 1941 1st Marine division upgrades its 290 1941 Marine Rifle Squads to 194* rifle squads from the pool. In vanilla WitP, those 1941 squads were then lost. My understanding is that for AE, those old 1941 squads are then upgraded to 194* squads. Is this the case? I argued over a year ago long and hard about this because it was not the men upgrading, it was their equipment. There was no shortage of equipment like there was a shortage of marines! This would help offset the lower manpower available for each side and made you treat those early squads a little nicer

3. This was hotly debated at the start of last year, and AE is quite different now. So I will ask: has the Japanese industry been tamed for AE? The reason I ask here is that you mentioned having only 40 Nates at start. As you pointed out, thats a far cry from where vanilla WitP started you out. Are there changes to the industry outside of the addition of light industry? Seemed like I read somewhere that certain R&D factories were locked now?

4. This is unrelated to your comments, but related to slowing things down a bit: There was a bug in vanilla WitP that allowed both sides to be able to draw pilots without taking them from the pool. That made 100's of pilots freely available on day 0 without any penalty. Has this been address in AE?

Again, thanks for all this info. Any answers or insight is greatly appreciated!

Thanks in advance.

Chad

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Post #: 4
RE: General observations from the tester(s) - 2/11/2009 5:22:21 PM   
jjax


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Hmmmmm..looks like the AE team is busy building up buzz..Does this mean that there isnt much else on the AE todo list

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Post #: 5
RE: General observations from the tester(s) - 2/11/2009 5:29:42 PM   
helldiver


Posts: 86
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From: SRA
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Greetings.

I'd like to build on YH's "general observations" and on Chad's questions... I get the impression that the use of support, both Nav Support and Av Support, will be more realistic and, well... slower... than in stock WitP... could one of the developers/testers just summarize the use and differences in practice and in the "feel" of these two items in AE...? I have the sense that this will be one of the more subtle, yet profound differences....

Regards,
Helldiver (Waiting patiently in the Southern Resource Area)

(in reply to Yamato hugger)
Post #: 6
RE: General observations from the tester(s) - 2/11/2009 5:40:38 PM   
pad152

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Yamato hugger

One thing I think makes AE enjoyable to me is the unknown. You really dont know what the allies have where after the first few turns. And their reinforcements. Gone are the days of evaccing fragments by sub and rebuilding whole divisions from a squad. The forcepools (on both sides) are greatly reduced (Im used to starting with 700+ Nates in the pool and I think I have 40 now). Because of the restricted commands, the allies will fight harder from the get go rather than using history to run away.

But the really big thing is, theres a lot of ocean out there. AE circles the globe so the allies can appear almost anywhere unlike stock where they can only come in from the 2 top corners of the map so you can bottle them up (and CHS not many more options). You dont know at a glance what airfields and ports are occupied so you can send in subs to interdict and run a CV raid through the area.

Recon is king in AE. I was an infantry squad leader in the army (among many other things I did) so I know what it feels like to lead troops into a fire fight, but Ive never had to stand back and watch it happen. AE really give me that feeling. In my last game vs Tree as my landing forces closed on the Bismark barrier, I really felt a sense of a commander sending his troops into harms way. I know there is at least 1 CL in the area and Rabul of course is a serious threat because of the airbase, yet I had no cover forces to spare for them. As each turn passed, my troops and ships crept closer waiting for some report from my long range recon from Truk to give me something, ANYTHING on what was going on out there.

People are going to have a lot of fun with this game. Especially at first, before they get used to what is where and when stuff comes in.


It sounds like your talking about fog of war, something missing in WITP, where you couldn't even hide a sub. You didn't need intel in WITP because you could see the size of every port & airfield, plus the number of aircraft & types and infantry units across the pacific, this was just a little too much info!

(in reply to Yamato hugger)
Post #: 7
RE: General observations from the tester(s) - 2/11/2009 6:17:05 PM   
Yamato hugger

 

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Pulling fragments out of an unrestricted unit isnt hard, you just cant do it with subs. But a lot of the forces in the PI, Malaya, and DEI are in restricted commands and can not change to an unrestricted command. In addition to that, the replacement rates for some thing are almost zero - the Thais and Chinese puppets for the Japanese for example.

Well actually the old troops in WitP were returned to the pool, its just that not many things needed them after units started upgrading. As far as manpower in AE goes I would THINK it would address this issue, but I have yet to get a test out of Dec 1941 (because of continuous new patches) so I really cant say about long term effects.

There is an option in the startup menu to lock R&D factories. Now my understanding of this is that with it locked, R&D factories can only be changed to other R&D factories. They cant be changed to a type that is currently producing. I could be very wrong on that, I am only now actually looking into anything to do with production. That will be part of my new AAR as well.

Pilots in AE work different than in WitP. The way it is currently in AE (subject to change) is any plane in the game needs a pilot. So if a new squadron come in, you draw that many pilots from the pool. If you have a squadron with reserve planes that have no pilots (say for example a 27 plane Zero squadron with 6 reserves and 27 pilots) you will draw 6 additional pilots from the pool to outfit these other 6 planes. Edit: When you need them, like if you transfer the unit to another base for example.

Well as far as av support it really hasnt changed. Nav support really helps loading a lot and also repairs. I havent gotten far enough into the game to see how it impacts long term repairs. Tree and I are hoping to see that in our current game.

FoW is huge in AE. Unless I am woefully mistaken, you dont get updates on enemy base builds unless you recon them either. This in theory could allow players to build "secret" bases, which isnt ahistorical.

< Message edited by Yamato hugger -- 2/11/2009 6:18:37 PM >


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RE: General observations from the tester(s) - 2/11/2009 6:20:43 PM   
Dili

 

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Great news about fog of war. I hope that aerial recon info is a bit better.

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Post #: 9
RE: General observations from the tester(s) - 2/11/2009 6:48:38 PM   
Chad Harrison


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Thanks for the comments once again. Feel free to share more anytime

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Post #: 10
RE: General observations from the tester(s) - 2/11/2009 8:23:55 PM   
fabertong


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This new FOW sounds great........it makes sense that if you haven't recon'd ....you don't know.......

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Post #: 11
RE: General observations from the tester(s) - 2/11/2009 8:49:07 PM   
treespider


Posts: 9796
Joined: 1/30/2005
From: Edgewater, MD
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Chad Harrison


quote:

ORIGINAL: Yamato hugger

. . .

Gone are the days of evaccing fragments by sub and rebuilding whole divisions from a squad. The forcepools (on both sides) are greatly reduced (Im used to starting with 700+ Nates in the pool and I think I have 40 now).

. . .



As with your AAR, thanks for posting any insight into AE! As you can see, we are all quite . . . excited for it

I just wanted to see if you could expound on this statement and/or answer a few questions:

1. Outside of the lack of replacements and/or unit withdraws, is there anything else that will prevent the player from withdrawing fragments and rebuilding them? In other words, in vanilla WitP, as long as one squad or devise survived, that entire division could be rebuilt. In AE, will that lone squad/devise just disband and the unit is lost? Or, will it rebuild ala vanilla WitP? (obviously pending adequate devices in the pool)


In general - there are 'hard" restricted commands and units assigned to them cannot be bought so they are stuck to defend the bases assigned to that command.

quote:


2. Andy (IIRC) posted awhile back that after squads upgrade, the original squads are returned and upgraded in the pool. In other words, my 1941 1st Marine division upgrades its 290 1941 Marine Rifle Squads to 194* rifle squads from the pool. In vanilla WitP, those 1941 squads were then lost. My understanding is that for AE, those old 1941 squads are then upgraded to 194* squads. Is this the case? I argued over a year ago long and hard about this because it was not the men upgrading, it was their equipment. There was no shortage of equipment like there was a shortage of marines! This would help offset the lower manpower available for each side and made you treat those early squads a little nicer


I think that was implemented...but not sure...Andy will have to answer.


quote:


3. This was hotly debated at the start of last year, and AE is quite different now. So I will ask: has the Japanese industry been tamed for AE? The reason I ask here is that you mentioned having only 40 Nates at start. As you pointed out, thats a far cry from where vanilla WitP started you out. Are there changes to the industry outside of the addition of light industry? Seemed like I read somewhere that certain R&D factories were locked now?


Realistic R&D is a Preference Option -- IIRC it can be locked or played like Vanilla.

quote:


4. This is unrelated to your comments, but related to slowing things down a bit: There was a bug in vanilla WitP that allowed both sides to be able to draw pilots without taking them from the pool. That made 100's of pilots freely available on day 0 without any penalty. Has this been address in AE?

Again, thanks for all this info. Any answers or insight is greatly appreciated!

Thanks in advance.

Chad



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Post #: 12
RE: General observations from the tester(s) - 2/11/2009 8:51:37 PM   
treespider


Posts: 9796
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From: Edgewater, MD
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quote:

ORIGINAL: pad152


quote:

ORIGINAL: Yamato hugger

One thing I think makes AE enjoyable to me is the unknown. You really dont know what the allies have where after the first few turns. And their reinforcements. Gone are the days of evaccing fragments by sub and rebuilding whole divisions from a squad. The forcepools (on both sides) are greatly reduced (Im used to starting with 700+ Nates in the pool and I think I have 40 now). Because of the restricted commands, the allies will fight harder from the get go rather than using history to run away.

But the really big thing is, theres a lot of ocean out there. AE circles the globe so the allies can appear almost anywhere unlike stock where they can only come in from the 2 top corners of the map so you can bottle them up (and CHS not many more options). You dont know at a glance what airfields and ports are occupied so you can send in subs to interdict and run a CV raid through the area.

Recon is king in AE. I was an infantry squad leader in the army (among many other things I did) so I know what it feels like to lead troops into a fire fight, but Ive never had to stand back and watch it happen. AE really give me that feeling. In my last game vs Tree as my landing forces closed on the Bismark barrier, I really felt a sense of a commander sending his troops into harms way. I know there is at least 1 CL in the area and Rabul of course is a serious threat because of the airbase, yet I had no cover forces to spare for them. As each turn passed, my troops and ships crept closer waiting for some report from my long range recon from Truk to give me something, ANYTHING on what was going on out there.

People are going to have a lot of fun with this game. Especially at first, before they get used to what is where and when stuff comes in.


It sounds like your talking about fog of war, something missing in WITP, where you couldn't even hide a sub. You didn't need intel in WITP because you could see the size of every port & airfield, plus the number of aircraft & types and infantry units across the pacific, this was just a little too much info!




Now you don't know where the aircraft are based unless the DL is high enough at a base...no convenient airfield or port symbol giving things away...

_____________________________

Here's a link to:
Treespider's Grand Campaign of DBB

"It is not the critic who counts, .... The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena..." T. Roosevelt, Paris, 1910

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Post #: 13
RE: General observations from the tester(s) - 2/11/2009 10:11:08 PM   
jwilkerson


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quote:

ORIGINAL: jjax

Hmmmmm..looks like the AE team is busy building up buzz..Does this mean that there isnt much else on the AE todo list


Depends on which list you mean!!! Some lists are getting shorter - others are getting longer!

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Post #: 14
RE: General observations from the tester(s) - 2/11/2009 10:23:37 PM   
Yamato hugger

 

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Actually the main reason is because there was no AARs for a long stretch there and people were getting "testy". Don reported shadows outside his windows at night, and Joe could hear distant chanting getting louder and louder.

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RE: General observations from the tester(s) - 2/12/2009 2:37:09 AM   
Alikchi2

 

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Those burning piles of WitP boxes on your lawns .. well, that wasn't me...

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RE: General observations from the tester(s) - 2/12/2009 2:45:37 AM   
Chad Harrison


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Thanks for the reply Treespider. Loving the new FOW.

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Post #: 17
RE: General observations from the tester(s) - 2/12/2009 3:29:24 AM   
Blackhorse


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quote:


2. Andy (IIRC) posted awhile back that after squads upgrade, the original squads are returned and upgraded in the pool. In other words, my 1941 1st Marine division upgrades its 290 1941 Marine Rifle Squads to 194* rifle squads from the pool. In vanilla WitP, those 1941 squads were then lost. My understanding is that for AE, those old 1941 squads are then upgraded to 194* squads. Is this the case? I argued over a year ago long and hard about this because it was not the men upgrading, it was their equipment. There was no shortage of equipment like there was a shortage of marines! This would help offset the lower manpower available for each side and made you treat those early squads a little nicer


Yep -- this is one of AndyMac's finer accomplishments, IMHO. When you get enough "42" squads to upgrade a "41" division, the displaced squads convert to "42" squads, so you have a cascading effect of more units being able to convert each subsequent turn. As you say, it is the squad's equipment being upgraded, not the squad itself.

And yes, the lower replacement rates *will* make you want to better treat those untested recruits with which you start the war.

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RE: General observations from the tester(s) - 2/12/2009 4:30:16 AM   
jcjordan

 

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Quick question if it's not been asked/answered elsewhere but on rebuilding lost units, fine that restricted commands will loose the units, but will non restricted command units come back if say I lose them due to surrender or whatever as IRL a div or rgt would be rebuilt later in the war after so much time anyway?

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Post #: 19
RE: General observations from the tester(s) - 2/12/2009 10:33:37 AM   
Kaletsch2007

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Yamato hugger

There is an option in the startup menu to lock R&D factories. Now my understanding of this is that with it locked, R&D factories can only be changed to other R&D factories. They cant be changed to a type that is currently producing. I could be very wrong on that, I am only now actually looking into anything to do with production. That will be part of my new AAR as well.
quote:


Sorry, I did not get that one. Could you explane this one a little more in detail.
quote:


FoW is huge in AE. Unless I am woefully mistaken, you dont get updates on enemy base builds unless you recon them either. This in theory could allow players to build "secret" bases, which isnt ahistorical.
quote:


One of the things I am looking forward to !!!


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Post #: 20
RE: General observations from the tester(s) - 2/12/2009 4:38:08 PM   
ny59giants_MatrixForum


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With the increased need for recon and intel to know what the enemy has, can there be some more info and/or screenshots of what the Allies have early war in Recon aircraft?? 

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Post #: 21
RE: General observations from the tester(s) - 2/12/2009 4:39:01 PM   
Chad Harrison


Posts: 1395
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From: Boise, ID - USA
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Blackhorse

Yep -- this is one of AndyMac's finer accomplishments, IMHO. When you get enough "42" squads to upgrade a "41" division, the displaced squads convert to "42" squads, so you have a cascading effect of more units being able to convert each subsequent turn. As you say, it is the squad's equipment being upgraded, not the squad itself.

And yes, the lower replacement rates *will* make you want to better treat those untested recruits with which you start the war.



Thanks for the reply Blackhorse. I dont need to point out what a *HUGE* improvement this will be. Hats off to Andy for pulling this off.

As I have said before, the more I learn about AE, the more it becomes apparent that many of the old tricks we used in vanilla WitP are dead after day one of AE. Love the new realism. Espeically with this, will be nice for players who take care of their troops to have a reward in having more manpower to push around.

Thanks again for the reply.

Chad

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Post #: 22
RE: General observations from the tester(s) - 2/12/2009 4:40:53 PM   
Grollub


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Yamato hugger
Actually the main reason is because there was no AARs for a long stretch there and people were getting "testy". Don reported shadows outside his windows at night, and Joe could hear distant chanting getting louder and louder.


Good thing you did this - We were also starting to run out of 'Developer Dolls' for the VooDoo classes

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Post #: 23
RE: General observations from the tester(s) - 2/12/2009 5:19:18 PM   
rhohltjr


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What about sigint in AE? Good for anything, nothing. Good Teletype sound effects?
Can you filter it in AE?


quote:

ORIGINAL: Yamato hugger
One thing I think makes AE enjoyable to me is the unknown. You really dont know what the allies have where after the first few turns. And their reinforcements. ....



_____________________________

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TF 85 troops securing a beachhead at Kota Bharu, 51,75
whew! I still feel better.

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Post #: 24
RE: General observations from the tester(s) - 2/12/2009 6:31:52 PM   
m10bob


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From: Dismal Seepage Indiana
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quote:

ORIGINAL: jwilkerson


quote:

ORIGINAL: jjax

Hmmmmm..looks like the AE team is busy building up buzz..Does this mean that there isnt much else on the AE todo list


Depends on which list you mean!!! Some lists are getting shorter - others are getting longer!



I knew it !!!!! An "enemies list" for who gets AE last!!!!!!!!!

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Post #: 25
RE: General observations from the tester(s) - 2/12/2009 6:50:14 PM   
witpqs


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Friends of Carlotta - Enemies of Carlotta






Attachment (1)

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Post #: 26
RE: General observations from the tester(s) - 2/13/2009 8:18:56 AM   
Apollo11


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Hi all,

quote:

ORIGINAL: jwilkerson

quote:

ORIGINAL: jjax

Hmmmmm..looks like the AE team is busy building up buzz..Does this mean that there isnt much else on the AE todo list


Depends on which list you mean!!! Some lists are getting shorter - others are getting longer!


Great... and let's hope that "the getting longer list" is not the bug list (sorry... joke... ccouldn't resist)...


Leo "Apollo11"

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Post #: 27
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