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Who's AE for? - 2/9/2009 7:19:52 PM   
jjax


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As i play through scenario 15 against the AI on WITP stock, i find myself asking the above question. Im starting to think that unless you a hardcore gronad (if there is such a thing) you might not appreciate the details added to AE.

I'm wandering if the any of you guys have an opinion on what type of WITP player will get the most out of AE.

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RE: Who's AE for? - 2/9/2009 7:35:33 PM   
Charbroiled


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Myself, I doubt if I will ever play WITP again once AE comes out.

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RE: Who's AE for? - 2/9/2009 7:35:40 PM   
Panther Bait


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Is there anyone but hardcore grognards playing WitP now?  Especially this long after it was released?

I wouldn't think that anyone but a grognard could live with the level of micromanagement it takes to really play WitP, not to mention single day turns (i.e. 1200+ turns total).  Grogs on the other hand thrive on that sort of thing.

Just look at the average Name this AE thread and watch people debating not just what the pictured units are, but where and when the picture was taken. 

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RE: Who's AE for? - 2/9/2009 7:45:45 PM   
Mike Solli


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Once AE comes out, I'll play WitP only as long as my current PBEMs are still going on.  After that, only AE.

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RE: Who's AE for? - 2/9/2009 8:01:27 PM   
cantona2


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That makes two of us Mike, well opponents willing ofcourse!

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RE: Who's AE for? - 2/9/2009 8:05:45 PM   
ChickenOfTheSea


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That is my plan as well. While continuing my PBEM's I will be learning AE vs AI.

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RE: Who's AE for? - 2/9/2009 8:18:20 PM   
Yamato hugger

 

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Whats AE?

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RE: Who's AE for? - 2/9/2009 8:34:52 PM   
dorjun driver


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That's not funny Yamato hugger!

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RE: Who's AE for? - 2/9/2009 8:55:19 PM   
Wirraway_Ace


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quote:

ORIGINAL: jjax

As i play through scenario 15 against the AI on WITP stock, i find myself asking the above question. Im starting to think that unless you a hardcore gronad (if there is such a thing) you might not appreciate the details added to AE.

I'm wandering if the any of you guys have an opinion on what type of WITP player will get the most out of AE.

If you have ever been frustrated by the CAP over the KB shooting down every single attacking bomber. If you have ever been frustrated by encountering 10,000 mines on every possible invasion hex. If you have ever been frustrated by the Allies conducting a D-Day sized invasion on a remote atoll--then you will enjoy AE.

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RE: Who's AE for? - 2/9/2009 9:18:04 PM   
wild_Willie2


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What I really also would really like to see in AE is a naval gunfire modifier based on the stability/ fire controll system of the shooting vessel. So no more AK's or even DD's hitting other DD's at 20K yards....

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RE: Who's AE for? - 2/9/2009 9:29:37 PM   
TheElf


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There is actually a strong argument that AE makes WitP easier to play. Therefore you don't necessarily HAVE to be a glutton for punishment...

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RE: Who's AE for? - 2/9/2009 9:32:48 PM   
Erik Rutins

 

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Personally, I think it's simple... AE is for everyone who plays WITP. It addresses the vast majority of the long-standing improvement requests for WITP and after playing it I don't feel that anyone who can handle WITP will be unable to handle AE. As usual, the first time - first turn will be daunting until you learn the new map and all the units, after that you'll be all set.

Some may still prefer the larger scale and fewer units, which is fine. Some may also like some of the smaller original WITP scenarios that aren't replicated in AE, or some of the unique custom mods or scenarios. But overall if you know how to use the various screens and filters to your advantage, I don't think AE represents a significant increase in micro-management and it's so much better in so many other ways.

WITP is required for AE largely because we want to make sure a customer knows what they're getting into. I think everyone who has played, mastered and enjoyed WITP will be able to make the transition with no problems.

Regards,

- Erik

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RE: Who's AE for? - 2/9/2009 10:18:16 PM   
vettim89


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Erik Rutins

WITP is required for AE largely because we want to make sure a customer knows what they're getting into. I think everyone who has played, mastered and enjoyed WITP will be able to make the transition with no problems.

Regards,

- Erik




Pardon me for my cynicism, but I think economics may have a wee bit to do with it too


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RE: Who's AE for? - 2/9/2009 10:20:21 PM   
anarchyintheuk

 

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After install I anticipate sitting in front my monitor w/ a silly grin on my face for an hour or two while looking through it . . . . much like I did w/ WitP.

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RE: Who's AE for? - 2/9/2009 10:23:13 PM   
Nomad

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Erik Rutins

Personally, I think it's simple... AE is for everyone who plays WITP. It addresses the vast majority of the long-standing improvement requests for WITP and after playing it I don't feel that anyone who can handle WITP will be unable to handle AE. As usual, the first time - first turn will be daunting until you learn the new map and all the units, after that you'll be all set.

Some may still prefer the larger scale and fewer units, which is fine. Some may also like some of the smaller original WITP scenarios that aren't replicated in AE, or some of the unique custom mods or scenarios. But overall if you know how to use the various screens and filters to your advantage, I don't think AE represents a significant increase in micro-management and it's so much better in so many other ways.

WITP is required for AE largely because we want to make sure a customer knows what they're getting into. I think everyone who has played, mastered and enjoyed WITP will be able to make the transition with no problems.

Regards,

- Erik


Hmmmm, I have played WitP and I have enjoyed playing WitP, but mastered it? No way. I guess I am out of luck.

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RE: Who's AE for? - 2/9/2009 11:37:33 PM   
mg62


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I've had WITP for ~9 months now.  I'm playing currently playing scenerio 15 against the AI.  I started off with the Coral Sea small scenerio to get a handle on the game. 

As I have been progressing though the Campaign I have noticed that alot of my micro-management that I don't like to do will be 'fixed' in AE.  My biggest issue is tracking convoy's and routing them arround problem areas.  I think the new multi-way point system will get rid of some mundane micro-management. 

I'm looking forward to the additional details that are being added.  I view my time spent with WITP as not only fun but training for AE.  I can't wait to see the final map and release of AE.

btw, this is my first post.  My first wargame was AH: Afrika Corps, things have come a long way.






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RE: Who's AE for? - 2/10/2009 12:22:43 AM   
jrcar

 

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I gotta agree with Erik on this, AE has a lot more complexity, but the improvements mean the "work load" is about the same as stock. Submarines and ASW Tf need a lot less micromanagement. Normal ship movements need a lot less micro management. Aircraft need more initially (like setting search arcs etc) but I think a bit less overall (except for getting repacements, which sometimes needs more work).

Where there is more workload (aircraft, ship repair, ports) it is worth it as it gives a much better "experiance".

As the Japanese in the test game I'm down to about 1-2 hours 6 days into the campaign, for two day turns (a one day turn is about the same). I expect to be down to about 30 mins in a couple more turns, with averages between 30 mins and 2 hrs depending on what is happening (I gotta admit though I'm NOT a micromanager, but focus on the key outcomes). This is about the same as what I spent on stock.

Cheers

Rob


quote:

ORIGINAL: Erik Rutins

Personally, I think it's simple... AE is for everyone who plays WITP. It addresses the vast majority of the long-standing improvement requests for WITP and after playing it I don't feel that anyone who can handle WITP will be unable to handle AE. As usual, the first time - first turn will be daunting until you learn the new map and all the units, after that you'll be all set.

Some may still prefer the larger scale and fewer units, which is fine. Some may also like some of the smaller original WITP scenarios that aren't replicated in AE, or some of the unique custom mods or scenarios. But overall if you know how to use the various screens and filters to your advantage, I don't think AE represents a significant increase in micro-management and it's so much better in so many other ways.

WITP is required for AE largely because we want to make sure a customer knows what they're getting into. I think everyone who has played, mastered and enjoyed WITP will be able to make the transition with no problems.

Regards,

- Erik


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RE: Who's AE for? - 2/10/2009 1:40:47 AM   
Chad Harrison


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Ill throw my hand in also that I think AE will actually be easier AFTER the first couple of turns. I think that the first couple of turns, especially the first, will be a huge amount of work. But once you get past these, all the bells and whistles of AE will make things much easier to manage, keep track of and give orders too, even with the mountain of new units.

They day AE comes out, I will never return to vanilla WitP. With my sole PBEM game over, there will be no reason too.

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RE: Who's AE for? - 2/10/2009 3:18:11 AM   
Erik Rutins

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: vettim89

Pardon me for my cynicism, but I think economics may have a wee bit to do with it too


Ok, but economically it's not that much of a difference and doing it this way allows us to make sure that we won't get folks for whom Panzer General was too much work accidentally buying AE. For the people who already own WITP, which constitute the bulk of our likely market, making it require WITP in effect allows us to build in a discount for WITP owners to the base price (no, the final price has not been set yet, but this is the theory) and for them the decision to make it require WITP really has zero effect economically or in any way.

If it were a stand-alone release, it would have to be priced higher though we would then also likely have some kind of upgrade/discount coupon program for existing WITP owners. It's much less messy in all respects to do it this way.

For new customer who does not own either WITP or AE (which we consider likely to be a fairly small part of the market for AE) the combined total price will probably end up a bit higher than what a stand-alone AE would have been. However, this way they get a chance to start with WITP and try the larger scale with fewer units. If that floats their boat, they can decide to step up to AE. If not, they can stay with the original WITP which I expect will still have a long life after AE's release and still has scenarios, mods and a ton of community history that AE does not yet have. Given the "bang for the buck" of WITP and AE though, I think it will still be well worth the price to get both for those who are looking for this kind of "total wargaming experience".

Given the original WITP was released almost five years ago now (Summer 2004), I think it's also fair to say that most owners have also put quite a bit of mileage on it and I think they'll be quite happy with the results of the "upgrade" to the new 2009 model, so to speak.

Regards,

- Erik


< Message edited by Erik Rutins -- 2/10/2009 3:19:59 AM >


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RE: Who's AE for? - 2/10/2009 3:53:10 AM   
jwilkerson


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Chad Harrison

Ill throw my hand in also that I think AE will actually be easier AFTER the first couple of turns. I think that the first couple of turns, especially the first, will be a huge amount of work. But once you get past these, all the bells and whistles of AE will make things much easier to manage, keep track of and give orders too, even with the mountain of new units.

They day AE comes out, I will never return to vanilla WitP. With my sole PBEM game over, there will be no reason too.


I recently finished a test PBEM with Rob (jrcar) he was Japanese, I was Allies.
I have actually never played Allies in a PBEM in stock - though I've played many PBEM as Japanese. Anyway, yes the Allied first turn or so was massive for me - maybe even more work than Japanese in stock - but I got down to 30-60 minutes per turn on average. The "immersion" is great. Everything seems "more important". I think your brain expands to encompass the expanded scale and additional bases and units. I remember when I first tried to play stock thinking I would never be able to really play it - there was just too much to do. I didn't actually have that feeling with AE - just more like wow - I have lots of stuff to deal with.

Ports, ports, ports.
In stock like Noumea is a level-6 and can quickly build up to a level-9. In AE Noumea starts as a level-2 and can slowly build up to a level-7. But you really come to appreciate your ports. Loading and unloading is much slower than stock, especially at smaller ports. Large invasions really need to load at multiple ports, else they will take forever to load up. So planning the use of your ports becomes another aspect of the game you don't think about in stock.

Air Unit Training.
In stock, the Allies probably mostly ignore and the Japanese bomb dots. The training mission is more effective in AE but you now have 12 skills to train on. You can pick one to focus on - or you can train on general skills (all skills with equal probability). You can make very useful improvements in your air units training level in 2 months or more. The highest you can get with the training mission is EXP 70, after that you with only increase by engaging in that type of mission. So transporting supplies will not make you better at ASW ... and bombing ports will not make you better at a2a combat. Managing your air unit training is at least as important as it was in stock.



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RE: Who's AE for? - 2/10/2009 4:14:05 AM   
jjax


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I think i will have a love-hate relation with AE.

I think the improvment to the movement system and map is worth the price of AE(whatever that may be)And i must admit, learning about the new training system put a smile on my face.

But I fear that the added ports and units going to make the first turn even more of a pain....I mean i have to divide the first turn into two play sessions as is...

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RE: Who's AE for? - 2/10/2009 4:31:04 AM   
Chad Harrison


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quote:

ORIGINAL: jwilkerson

I recently finished a test PBEM with Rob (jrcar) he was Japanese, I was Allies.
I have actually never played Allies in a PBEM in stock - though I've played many PBEM as Japanese. Anyway, yes the Allied first turn or so was massive for me - maybe even more work than Japanese in stock - but I got down to 30-60 minutes per turn on average. The "immersion" is great. Everything seems "more important". I think your brain expands to encompass the expanded scale and additional bases and units. I remember when I first tried to play stock thinking I would never be able to really play it - there was just too much to do. I didn't actually have that feeling with AE - just more like wow - I have lots of stuff to deal with.

Ports, ports, ports.
In stock like Noumea is a level-6 and can quickly build up to a level-9. In AE Noumea starts as a level-2 and can slowly build up to a level-7. But you really come to appreciate your ports. Loading and unloading is much slower than stock, especially at smaller ports. Large invasions really need to load at multiple ports, else they will take forever to load up. So planning the use of your ports becomes another aspect of the game you don't think about in stock.

Air Unit Training.
In stock, the Allies probably mostly ignore and the Japanese bomb dots. The training mission is more effective in AE but you now have 12 skills to train on. You can pick one to focus on - or you can train on general skills (all skills with equal probability). You can make very useful improvements in your air units training level in 2 months or more. The highest you can get with the training mission is EXP 70, after that you with only increase by engaging in that type of mission. So transporting supplies will not make you better at ASW ... and bombing ports will not make you better at a2a combat. Managing your air unit training is at least as important as it was in stock.




We need to start a support group to help veteran and nooB players alike to get through the first turn! This is the only game I have ever played where I spend 10 or more hours on my first time, and thats as the Allies!

Once you get through that first turn, as you said Joe, its pretty smooth sailing from there. As the Allies, I especially found that after the first 6 months of the way, things ran like clock work and you could just focus on combat and not have to worry so much about logistics. You still have to deal with it, but by that point you have some sort of system (for better or worse) for getting it done.

I greatly look forward to AE just from an organizational point of view. All the new options for filtering units, leaders, ships and so on will greatly help with solving the mental 'wheres my stuff' moments. The ability to freely assign ships to any command is also going to be huge! As an organization freak that I will mean I will be able to keep track of the theatre responsibilities for all my ships and never loose track of who belongs where.

Add these improvements, not to mention the much more detailed combat reports, and I think that things will move along much quicker because you will spend less time keeping track of things outside of the game.

Again, great work Joe and the rest of the team! Cant wait!

Chad

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RE: Who's AE for? - 2/10/2009 4:34:40 AM   
TOMLABEL


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quote:

ORIGINAL: mg62

I've had WITP for ~9 months now.  I'm playing currently playing scenerio 15 against the AI.  I started off with the Coral Sea small scenerio to get a handle on the game. 

As I have been progressing though the Campaign I have noticed that alot of my micro-management that I don't like to do will be 'fixed' in AE.  My biggest issue is tracking convoy's and routing them arround problem areas.  I think the new multi-way point system will get rid of some mundane micro-management. 

I'm looking forward to the additional details that are being added.  I view my time spent with WITP as not only fun but training for AE.  I can't wait to see the final map and release of AE.

btw, this is my first post.  My first wargame was AH: Afrika Corps, things have come a long way.









Welcome MG62! Glad to have you aboard!


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RE: Who's AE for? - 2/10/2009 4:36:11 AM   
Kull


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quote:

ORIGINAL: jjax

As i play through scenario 15 against the AI on WITP stock, i find myself asking the above question. Im starting to think that unless you a hardcore gronad (if there is such a thing) you might not appreciate the details added to AE.

I'm wandering if the any of you guys have an opinion on what type of WITP player will get the most out of AE.


I'm not that far removed from the "Oh-my-effin-GOD!" feeling that overwhelms the new WitP player, so it's a valid question. But the more you play, the more at ease you feel, and THEN the limitations slowly become apparent. What's so impressive about AE (from the outside), is how the team has focused on those areas that make the whole experience more accurate. And I'm not talking about adding aircraft types that barely impacted the war or umpteen zillion new ship types - its things like a much more accurate air combat model and limits on torpedos and mines and making port sizes actually mean something. Even deceptively simple stuff like stacking limits that force you to base your bomber wing on one airbase and the escorts at another, literally causing you to PRAY that weather or inexperienced squadron leaders don't screw up the coordination, leaving your bombers unprotected versus merciless CAP.

So "what type of WITP player will get the most out of AE"? Every WitP player.

quote:

ORIGINAL: mg62

My first wargame was AH: Afrika Corps, things have come a long way.


My first, too. And yes they have!

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Post #: 24
RE: Who's AE for? - 2/10/2009 5:53:39 AM   
Dili

 

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Since my big troubles were managing Cargo and patrol TF's and submarines, AE if it works will be just great. Harbour issues are minor and the correction very welcome , we already know which ones are bigger and since we get a grip of how much time it takes to unload it will all fit. Uh! i forgot: sector search!

< Message edited by Dili -- 2/10/2009 5:54:35 AM >

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Post #: 25
RE: Who's AE for? - 2/10/2009 6:01:43 AM   
kaleun

 

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"Once AE comes out, I'll play WitP only as long as my current PBEMs are still going on.  After that, only AE. "

Me too.


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RE: Who's AE for? - 2/10/2009 6:59:30 AM   
boba


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So, any hint what is expected release date fore AE?
I'm about to begin PBEM game in WitP, and I would hate to do first turn again in week or two, if it's so close to release

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Post #: 27
RE: Who's AE for? - 2/10/2009 8:50:02 AM   
rockmedic109

 

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I gave up UV when WITP came out.  I will give up WITP when AE comes out.  I would've liked for it to have come out a year ago as I've been on disability since last March and will be returning to work {hopefully!} next month.  I've had a lot of free time to play.  But it will come when it comes.  And I will get it as soon as I find it released.  And I will sit in front of my computer drooling for two hours before starting to play it.

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Post #: 28
RE: Who's AE for? - 2/10/2009 5:35:55 PM   
rhohltjr


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AI upgrades. People like me that are frustrated when playing stock Witp as allies, and having ships or task forces ignore all common sense and go sailing back to San Francisco by way of a sight seeing tour of the coast of Japan. I am also hoping the 'AI' 1941-45 tupperware party will end in the tri-city area of Dacca, Diamond thingamajig and another city, and the CBI land units in theatre will attack the Japanese in mass instead of attacking one unit at a time and getting cut to pieces. I am hoping that AI governed regions will actually make use of ships to supply or move land units.

Lots more things that Witp should have been from the start. That is IMHO what or who AE may be aimed at.

@Erik : So this is an official official announcement then:
quote:

the "upgrade" to the new 2009 model, so to speak.

And we definately have an end year then?

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Post #: 29
RE: Who's AE for? - 2/10/2009 6:14:37 PM   
Erik Rutins

 

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Yes, it is at least safe to say that AE will release in 2009. Really.

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