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Is Battleground Europe the only true wargame?

 
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Is Battleground Europe the only true wargame? - 2/7/2009 5:13:59 PM   
Hairog


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Here is a little post by a Doc (one of the creators of BGE) that caught my attention. After a long stalemated period of intense combat, the Allied Commander either made a mistake or the Axis had a brilliant strategic nirvana as there was a massive breakout that was fun for all.

"Written by DOC Monday, 02 February 2009 00:00

What a Friday night it was in game. I spotted a post in the forums that I thought would shed some light on another one of the reasons we think the game is so great. In light of last nights events it seemed a good place to draw out these kinds of things for you and say congrats Axis! for a fun night.

From the forums, player Kilemal said:

The game's design relies on mistakes to create variability.

Bingo!

Just like real war, there are times of total stagnation, complete attrition slugfests down to the last man, other times of massive breakouts where the line is either in dire risk of collapse or actually does collapse. Times of fast movement where little battle is actually contested, and massive areas are occupied (captured) and other times where the breakout is chopped off like a bulging hernia.

After 2 straight months of withering heart felt conflict by all players of the game, we have seen everything. From Blitzkrieg to Stalingrad, it has all shown it's hand in this historic campaign number 50.

Never allow yourself the luxury of the self fulfilling prophecy that any mistake is a sign of the game being broken. Unlike most "conflict" games (I don't call them war games because I haven't seen any other game actually model the effects, consequences and management of WAR like this one, this is almost a war creator game not a war playing game) ... unlike those other games in this one you have the greatest collection of possible or potential WAR related elements and aspects you'll find in a single game. A mistake determining success or failure in a wargame that hopes to simulate actual war to any degree is not a sign that it is broken, it is a sign that it is working better than any war game where mistakes mean nothing, or don't exist in the first place.

MISTAKES are one of the biggest and most deciding factors in real war you could study. They decided more individual battles and campaigns than almost anything else. That mistakes at a command level can occur in this game is one of the reasons it is the only MMPOPvP WAR game out there. There are other games that are PvP or "war related" but none are as close to being as much WAR as this one is.

I salute all players who choose to take part in this grand wargame experience (if not experiment and it is largely an experimental project) ... we have happy players, bitter players, smart players and not so smart players. Skilled ones and n00bs, hoping to be skilled one day. We have strategic players and tactical players, ground grunts with the hard won experience to win against almost any odds, and cannon fodder who still have a long way to go. Aces and dweebs alike take to the skies. Players who run supply and resupply their comrades in the field. Others who fix or take down bridges to help shape the coming or ongoing attack or defense.
We have stalemates and breakouts. Little burps and massive coronaries. Brilliant leadership and huge mistakes. Face to muzzle close combat and mile away finger of god despatching of the enemy.

We have players who suffer a crisis of confidence and a week later, heck just a day later, they are racing through the lines and redrawing the map of conflict like they are the kings of the world.

We have towns that are too easy to take, and cities that seem impossible to take, and then along comes a town that was too easy to take yesterday and today it's an 8 hour meatgrinder. The city that last month was "impossible to take" falls captured and suddenly perceptions are shattered like glass.

Still some hold strong against all visible evidence.

In short, we have it all. You have it all. Good, bad, happy, sad, fast, slow, easy, hard, right, wrong, brilliant and insane ... the game has everything."

From what I can gather they are about to offer the game in China. This should bring in some much needed revenue and hopefully some more programers to polish this gem.

< Message edited by Hairog -- 2/7/2009 5:14:40 PM >
Post #: 1
RE: Is Battleground Europe the only true wargame? - 2/7/2009 5:32:32 PM   
Jeffrey H.


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WWIIOL has some great elements for sure but also some fatal flaws. The imbalance of vehicles to infantry is one of them.

The elfie-welfie MMO games will always attract a larger crowd unfortunately.



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RE: Is Battleground Europe the only true wargame? - 2/9/2009 5:57:34 PM   
Zakhal


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From: Jyväskylä, Finland
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I still have account in ww2ol. Played it on and off since 2001.

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RE: Is Battleground Europe the only true wargame? - 2/10/2009 2:15:00 AM   
Scott_WAR

 

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I have considered giving WW2O another go. I havent tried it in a year or so.

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RE: Is Battleground Europe the only true wargame? - 2/12/2009 6:52:38 AM   
GenChaos33


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Yes, the only true wargame that gives me a real feeling of true combat(or what I believe to be true combat). I have been a WWIIOL-BE player for around 4 years now. Still play about 3-4 times a week(a late nite player). I play a lot of countryside ATG(alot of my action is 1K outside of town). The tank vs ATG battles still get my heart pumping. Something about MMO PvP, large map with realistic changing of elevations, and hitting a tank when they don't expect it just make the experience great for me. I have never hunted in real life but thats the feeling I get. I admit I might play the game a little different than most. There is a lot of setup/downtime but it works for me and my computer situation. FYI - I have a POS computer/internet setup.

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RE: Is Battleground Europe the only true wargame? - 2/12/2009 8:12:41 AM   
Joram

 

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What are you a recruiter?  Are you going to post this on every forum?

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RE: Is Battleground Europe the only true wargame? - 2/12/2009 1:37:38 PM   
GJK


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I'm confused about which forum I'm reading now. That or it's deja-vu all over again.

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RE: Is Battleground Europe the only true wargame? - 2/12/2009 3:25:23 PM   
JudgeDredd


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I hated WWIIO. Tried it once, logged on....was surprised at how little action there was. I then decided to make my way (wherever). Tried to hitch a lift...nope. No-one was interested. Eventually got to the town I was going to and BAM!!! Sniper.

Tried again, immediately, different approach to the town and same thing. Seems the town had a few snipers.

The game appeared to have no team work...no sense of sides. It was an "individual" online shooter surrounded by other individuals or small "pockets" of comrades.

I've never wanted to pick it up since!

That was a loooooooooooooong time ago, but still...

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RE: Is Battleground Europe the only true wargame? - 2/12/2009 8:09:02 PM   
Scott_WAR

 

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The game is nothing BUT teamwork. I still find it funny when someone gets a game, takes no time to learn how it works, and think its the game that is the problem.

You MUST join a squad in WW2O. Just like in real life military UNITS will win over the guy running around all by himself.

You must also learn how the communications channels work, that way you have a clue whats going on. HQ will let you know where they need help, and will help you get there if they can.

< Message edited by Scott_WAR -- 2/12/2009 8:10:16 PM >

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RE: Is Battleground Europe the only true wargame? - 2/12/2009 11:46:06 PM   
GenChaos33


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Yes. Teamwork and squads are needed for both town defense and town attack(the capture the flag stuff). A lot of the FB(firebase) stuff can be a little more solo work. As far as learning how to play WWIIOL-BE, available manuals were really bad and always out of date which made it hard to play the game correctly. It might be a little better now with the in-game manuals(maybe?).

I was in a squad and in the High Command, but drop out to both. Due to my poor computer/internet, its hard for me to enjoy runnin with squads/in-town battles(bad lag). Luckily, I really like my ATG stuff and always try to communicate to the High Command officers/chat channels if the enemy seems to be makes a heavy push/attack to the nearby town I am at. So I do a kind of ATG/Recon thing.

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RE: Is Battleground Europe the only true wargame? - 2/12/2009 11:58:27 PM   
Zakhal


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There has always been lots of teamwork in the game. You can lead and follow. Theres even ingame tools for it now. Mostly though nowadays I just fight the inf battles or protect tanks during close fights. With depots for both attacker and defender, plus mobile spawns theres plenty of ways to spawn near enemy.No need to hitch rides from FBs anymore.


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RE: Is Battleground Europe the only true wargame? - 2/13/2009 4:57:40 AM   
vonRocko

 

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I just downloaded this game this evening, and I am very confused by it all. How can people chat so fast while fighting also? I hope I will comprehend it all sometime. It has some nice elements.

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RE: Is Battleground Europe the only true wargame? - 2/13/2009 5:06:18 AM   
Grell

 

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I played this game and I liked it.

Regards,

Grell

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RE: Is Battleground Europe the only true wargame? - 2/13/2009 9:14:51 AM   
JudgeDredd


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Well Scott...you can find it funny all you want. I'm telling you how it played when I downloaded it to try...and I didn't have to join a squad...therefore it wasn't how I perceived the game, but actually how it worked.

It' fair to say, as I pointed out in my post, that that was quite some time ago...a lot may have changed. I found the experience empty and futile....back then

So it's got bugger all to do with me getting the game, taking no time to learn how it works and thinking it's the game that had the problem...but if it gives you a laugh to think that, then feel free.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Scott_WAR

The game is nothing BUT teamwork. I still find it funny when someone gets a game, takes no time to learn how it works, and think its the game that is the problem.

You MUST join a squad in WW2O. Just like in real life military UNITS will win over the guy running around all by himself.

You must also learn how the communications channels work, that way you have a clue whats going on. HQ will let you know where they need help, and will help you get there if they can.


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Post #: 14
RE: Is Battleground Europe the only true wargame? - 2/13/2009 5:50:15 PM   
GenChaos33


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I must also admit that when I hear a new player state that 'there's no action in this game' or 'all I do is just die and never kill/see anyone' is that its because the new player has a misunderstanding of how the game works. IMO, a lot of new players believe town attacks are of the frontal attack style. They believe they can just run up the bell tower of the church in the town under attack and look in the direction of the attack and see a hord of enemy infantry and tanks moving towards the town. Thats not how WWIIOL-BE normally works. It could happen but would need a lot of squads and teamwork. A lot of the attacks start as the infiltration style. Cover is a big part of the game(FYI - audio direction is the most important). You never see the enemy infantry til they are right up on you or worse they kill you first. Once these 'enemy molers' get a foothold in the town then the attack may start to escalate into a bigger battle.

When ever I meet up with a noob ingame, I try to ask a few questions to them. 1) Are you having fun? 2) Do you have any questions about game? 3) Do you understand how AO's(when High Command designates a town to be attacked/defended) work? 4) Do you understand how EWS(a town's early warning system) works? 5) Do you understand how FB(firebases near towns) work? 6) Do you understand how UMS(trucks that create a mobile spawn point) work? 7) Do you understand how the communication system works? IMO, all of the last five questions must be understood to find good action and have fun. 

Another issue to keep in mind is what time of day are you logging into the game? This is an online community game. There are high pop and low pop times. If its low pop, big action can be a little harder to find.

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RE: Is Battleground Europe the only true wargame? - 2/13/2009 7:03:18 PM   
Zakhal


Posts: 2491
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From: Jyväskylä, Finland
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quote:

ORIGINAL: JudgeDredd

I hated WWIIO. Tried it once, logged on....was surprised at how little action there was. I then decided to make my way (wherever). Tried to hitch a lift...nope. No-one was interested. Eventually got to the town I was going to and BAM!!! Sniper.

Check this video how to stay alive:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qvs8HNE3488

< Message edited by Zakhal -- 2/13/2009 7:05:13 PM >


_____________________________

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"Those who dont read history are destined to repeat it."– Edmund Burke

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RE: Is Battleground Europe the only true wargame? - 2/13/2009 7:09:49 PM   
Zakhal


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From: Jyväskylä, Finland
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quote:

ORIGINAL: GeneralChaos

I must also admit that when I hear a new player state that 'there's no action in this game' or 'all I do is just die and never kill/see anyone' is that its because the new player has a misunderstanding of how the game works. IMO, a lot of new players believe town attacks are of the frontal attack style. They believe they can just run up the bell tower of the church in the town under attack and look in the direction of the attack and see a hord of enemy infantry and tanks moving towards the town. Thats not how WWIIOL-BE normally works. It could happen but would need a lot of squads and teamwork. A lot of the attacks start as the infiltration style. Cover is a big part of the game(FYI - audio direction is the most important). You never see the enemy infantry til they are right up on you or worse they kill you first.

Once these 'enemy molers' get a foothold in the town then the attack may start to escalate into a bigger battle.


I usually wait for that latter part where the attack escalates before spawning into the map. Before that I just browse the map and listen the channels in search of such battles and occasionally spawn in to check close what the situation is. Often it takes only few minutes to find som good inf action.

< Message edited by Zakhal -- 2/13/2009 7:14:16 PM >


_____________________________

"99.9% of all internet arguments are due to people not understanding someone else's point. The other 0.1% is arguing over made up statistics."- unknown poster
"Those who dont read history are destined to repeat it."– Edmund Burke

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RE: Is Battleground Europe the only true wargame? - 2/13/2009 8:03:19 PM   
GenChaos33


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first vid is from my old squad

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5qDRRv-7tJY

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yVVvNrXev9M

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RE: Is Battleground Europe the only true wargame? - 2/13/2009 10:21:02 PM   
Scott_WAR

 

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Sorry Judge, I could have put that a little better. The game is not like a typical FPS game where a single person can do well if they know how to play it. You may get lucky and get a kill or two in ww20 while alone, but its not going to happen often. More likely you are going to be spotted by an enemy who is going to alert other enemies that you are close, and those enemies will kill you before you see or hear anything.

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RE: Is Battleground Europe the only true wargame? - 2/14/2009 12:22:36 AM   
Hertston


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I really hope this has improved since I played it (on release, and a brief spell a couple of years later - when it hadn't).  The aircraft and tanks were OK-ish, but the infantry combat was poorly designed tedium incarnate.  I suppose it must have have done, or the game wouldn't still be around.

What is the current player population, BTW?  What sort of peak numbers are there?

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RE: Is Battleground Europe the only true wargame? - 2/14/2009 12:26:57 AM   
JudgeDredd


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Scott...it's ok. I apologise. Twas I (as usual) who jumped over the bar. I tend to read between the lines rather than what was written.

I presume there is alot of truth in what you and General Chaos say with the state of the game as of today...but when I got the game a long time ago, it most definitely did not have the "teamwork" aspect. I'm sure you could have found a "clan" to join up with and play, but that is not the same as joining a game and joining a "team"...that functionality definitely wasn't there when I tried the game. Like I said, that was a loooooong time ago.

If that has changed as you say, then it is most definitely for the better.

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RE: Is Battleground Europe the only true wargame? - 2/14/2009 5:33:36 AM   
Jeffrey H.


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From: San Diego, Ca.
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Hertston

I really hope this has improved since I played it (on release, and a brief spell a couple of years later - when it hadn't).  The aircraft and tanks were OK-ish, but the infantry combat was poorly designed tedium incarnate.  I suppose it must have have done, or the game wouldn't still be around.

What is the current player population, BTW?  What sort of peak numbers are there?



Actualy infantry combat was the most and least fun at the same time. But the dev's kept watering it down more and more. They kept dumping tanks and planes in the arenas because that's what most of the players liked. It's ridiculous how many vehicles get consumed in a day of gaming, like the entire war's worth of production every day.

I think most of us on this forum would jump into infantry but that's simply not where the fun is/was.

However, mobile spawn had the potential to really improve the game. I was out before that came along. The devs resisted the idea far too long.

They had some very bizarre notions about infantry in the game, and seemed to level all the imbalance on the infantry. Infatry had to suffer without optics, (tanks had them), infantry had to have artificial rifle wobble added, (tanks didn't) infantry had to have limited ammo, (tanks didn't have gunjam or overheat), infantry had to have historical equipment, (no pistols, carrying around MG ammo even if you didn't spawn with an MG), infantry had to have teamwork, (tanks and planes and even ships could spawn without multicrew). God they really hated the infantry player. They really screwed things up.

I'll never play it again. But honestly it had some great potential, but they blew it on kiddie tankfests and airquake.



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RE: Is Battleground Europe the only true wargame? - 2/14/2009 4:41:22 PM   
vonRocko

 

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Two nights ago,I purchased the game,I played about 3 hrs. Since then I haven't been able to play one minute! Every time I try to log on I get a message saying "unable to connect to the authentication server"? Nothing fixes it. The website says many players have this problem.That is just great! The solutions offered don't work. The help site just offers the same suggestions as the website. No effort on their part to resolve my problem.

  Funny how these companies can take your money without a glitch,but can't make the game run.


< Message edited by vonRocko -- 2/15/2009 4:12:39 PM >

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RE: Is Battleground Europe the only true wargame? - 2/14/2009 11:42:15 PM   
GenChaos33


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vonR, sorry to hear of your problem. Are you only using the desktop icon? Maybe try using the Start menu? Note - I'm not a computer/internet expert. But like they always say, (maybe?) un-install then re-install. FYI - sometimes the server is down for a few hours(you will get the same message), but I assume that you have tried a few days now with a no go. So the only answer might be the help desk or CRS forums(thats if you can get the help from them).

I must admit that it does happen to me also. But only about once a month and usually after a few minutes it will then work. The bigger problem I have is that I get a lost connection maybe once a week. But I figure that I'm online and ingame a lot, so my average is acceptable.

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RE: Is Battleground Europe the only true wargame? - 2/15/2009 12:30:24 AM   
roeddog

 

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Von are you using McAfee's firewall, I do and had the same problem? After the most recent update from them my BE was blocked from inbound and outbound access through the firewall. You may want to check it
quote:

ORIGINAL: vonRocko

Two nights ago,I purchased the game,I played about 3 hrs. Since then I haven't been able to play one minute! Every time I try to log on I get a message saying "unable to connect to the authentication server"? Nothing fixes it. The website says many players have this problem.That is just great! The solutions offered don't work. The help site just offers the same suggestions as the website. No effort on their part to resolve my problem.

  Funny how these companies can take your money without a glitch,but can't make the game run.
Take my advice,and let my financial loss be a lesson. STAY AWAY FROM THIS GAME!



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Post #: 25
RE: Is Battleground Europe the only true wargame? - 2/15/2009 3:12:44 AM   
Zakhal


Posts: 2491
Joined: 1/4/2001
From: Jyväskylä, Finland
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quote:

ORIGINAL: vonRocko

Two nights ago,I purchased the game,I played about 3 hrs. Since then I haven't been able to play one minute! Every time I try to log on I get a message saying "unable to connect to the authentication server"? Nothing fixes it. The website says many players have this problem.That is just great! The solutions offered don't work. The help site just offers the same suggestions as the website. No effort on their part to resolve my problem.

  Funny how these companies can take your money without a glitch,but can't make the game run.
Take my advice,and let my financial loss be a lesson. STAY AWAY FROM THIS GAME!

That has never happened to me since 2001 but dont worry I will help you. Oh you allready posted "this game sucks everyone hate this game". Well suddenly now my interest to help you was lowered to a level where you dont need it anymore. Have a nice life -zakhal.


_____________________________

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Post #: 26
RE: Is Battleground Europe the only true wargame? - 2/15/2009 3:37:33 AM   
vonRocko

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Zakhal

quote:

ORIGINAL: vonRocko

Two nights ago,I purchased the game,I played about 3 hrs. Since then I haven't been able to play one minute! Every time I try to log on I get a message saying "unable to connect to the authentication server"? Nothing fixes it. The website says many players have this problem.That is just great! The solutions offered don't work. The help site just offers the same suggestions as the website. No effort on their part to resolve my problem.

  Funny how these companies can take your money without a glitch,but can't make the game run.
Take my advice,and let my financial loss be a lesson. STAY AWAY FROM THIS GAME!

That has never happened to me since 2001 but dont worry I will help you. Oh you allready posted "this game sucks everyone hate this game". Well suddenly now my interest to help you was lowered to a level where you dont need it anymore. Have a nice life -zakhal.


Hey zakhal
Where in my post did I ask for your help anyway? Show me the post that you have in quotations. I mention nothing about gameplay. How would I know, I can't play it. Since the game has been out that long,why does it still have connection problems?
I'm just trying to share my lousy experience with it,so some other person can make a decision on whether to try it or not.
Thank you however,I am having a wonderful life,and I wish you the same!

(in reply to Zakhal)
Post #: 27
RE: Is Battleground Europe the only true wargame? - 2/15/2009 4:38:41 AM   
Zakhal


Posts: 2491
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From: Jyväskylä, Finland
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quote:

ORIGINAL: vonRocko
Hey zakhal
Where in my post did I ask for your help anyway? Show me the post that you have in quotations. I mention nothing about gameplay. How would I know, I can't play it. Since the game has been out that long,why does it still have connection problems?
I'm just trying to share my lousy experience with it,so some other person can make a decision on whether to try it or not.
Thank you however,I am having a wonderful life,and I wish you the same!

Thanks vonRocko

As said I want to help you. Especially if you paid for this game and its not just trial.

First. Have you posted your problem to the windows community support?
http://forums.battlegroundeurope.com/forumdisplay.php?f=13

If you have paid and cant even launch the game then make a post there. Many people devs and fans follow that forum and are eager to help you and I will too keep an eye on this.

As a fan of ww2ol I will not give up until you get to play it. Dont worry you will get there. We will fix this.

< Message edited by Zakhal -- 2/15/2009 4:39:46 AM >


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Post #: 28
RE: Is Battleground Europe the only true wargame? - 2/15/2009 7:07:17 AM   
GenChaos33


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Joined: 9/28/2000
Status: offline
Sad to say but vonRocko might be beyond the point of no return.
But if he is frustratrated getting the game running,
I'm sure the frustratration would have continued into the game.
This bad event might be a good thing, it might have saved his sanity!

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(in reply to Zakhal)
Post #: 29
RE: Is Battleground Europe the only true wargame? - 2/15/2009 7:12:43 AM   
Tayvl

 

Posts: 1
Joined: 2/15/2009
Status: offline
I've been in squads and I've been a lone wolf. I started on day one in 2001, and last summer returned to the game after a year or so absence. I don't care to be in a squad now because I'm not interested in socializing while playing. I still have to work with the other guys who are on the same objective, I just have the freedom to pick and choose when and where to go. And if you've played for a while you don't ever have a problem finding action (not that you always look for action - the other night I spent 3 hours guarding an FB (forward base) and only saw one enemy the whole time... but the FB didn't get taken down).

It's harder for new people as infantry, not only because they don't know how things work and what to look for, but they don't have binoculars, either. They're simply seen by the enemy a lot of the time before they're ever even ABLE to see the enemy. So stay the hell hidden. And don't do what a lot of new guys do: run around shooting just to hear your weapon. People know what enemy weapons sound like and they'll zero in on you by sound alone and you'll never see what killed you.

Sound hard? It is, at first. Then all the keyboard and mouse moves become automatic, you know whether that rifle shot in the woods was friendly or enemy (and whichever it was, you know there's something going on over there), and you have more time to glance at the chat window to see those messages you didn't bother to read before (like back when people were yelling at you to watch out for that enemy tank you were running toward...).

In all, if you need to get a nut the first time out, don't even bother. If you want to get good at the game, take a little time.

(in reply to Zakhal)
Post #: 30
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