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War history - 2/7/2009 7:22:08 AM   
Zakhal


Posts: 2491
Joined: 1/4/2001
From: Jyväskylä, Finland
Status: offline 		must be the worst hobby of all. I havent really known anyone irl for 10 years who was interested. Briefly I remember meeting som person 6 years ago who had played uncommon valour but thats about it. 10 years ago I knew 2-3 ppl who played i.e spwaw but they have all disappeared and I have met countless new people since.

As a worst example I have one friend who likes only strategy games but hates all war and history related - its totally hopeless. Fact seems to be that if I want to meet even one person who has this hobby I have to make som truly big effort?

At times it makes me think how much more successful (well it would be much easier atleast) I might be in life if id have hobbies that actually relate to people around me. War history without doubt is the biggest failure in the overall picture. Too bad we cant pick. It takes extraordinary to make with this hobby, but Im not able to offer more than normal. Just 5 cents.


< Message edited by Zakhal -- 2/7/2009 8:13:16 AM >

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Post #: 1
RE: War history - 2/7/2009 8:34:06 AM   
leastonh1


Posts: 879
Joined: 2/12/2005
From: West Yorkshire, England
Status: offline 		Zakhal, I have a few good friends, many casual friends and acquaintances, family and work colleagues. Out of all those people, I cannot think of a single one who is remotely interested in military history, computer or board wargaming. With the exception of my wife. She'll play board wargames as long as they aren't more complex than Memoir '44 and seems to like them. But, she only does this to indulge me. So, you aren't alone in this experience. I suspect many wargamers will say pretty much the same thing too.

If you play board games, it used to be quite a lonely hobby. But, with the Internet giving us communities like this one, PBEM and the amazing Vassal engine to hook up and play with other people, it needn't be solitary any more. Try a boardgame with Vassal and voice comms. You can play people all over the world for free and it's almost as good as having them in the same room when you're chatting away.

Just my UK 2p worth


< Message edited by Jim_H -- 2/7/2009 8:35:14 AM >

_____________________________

2nd Lt. George Rice: Looks like you guys are going to be surrounded.
Richard Winters: We're paratroopers, Lieutenant, we're supposed to be surrounded.

(in reply to Zakhal)
Post #: 2
RE: War history - 2/7/2009 9:22:13 AM   
Lützow


Posts: 1517
Joined: 7/22/2008
From: Germany
Status: offline 		When I was a kid, at family meetings my grand uncles were always talking about their experience from Russia and France. That's why I later got interested in wargaming and -history. But these generation extincted and with them the rememberance of WWII. However, modern conflicts don't know heroes anymore and are not interesting enough to get debated from a militairy pov.

(in reply to leastonh1)
Post #: 3
RE: War history - 2/7/2009 12:41:33 PM   
Sarge


Posts: 2841
Joined: 3/1/2003
From: ask doggie
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Lützow

When I was a kid, at family meetings my grand uncles were always talking about their experience from Russia and France. That's why I later got interested in wargaming and -history. But these generation extincted and with them the rememberance of WWII. However, modern conflicts don't know heroes anymore and are not interesting enough to get debated from a militairy pov.

I beg to differ,

There are many heroes in Iraq n’ Afghanistan truly strange you think otherwise , I don’t know your perspective on the “modern “ conflict but I have to disagree along with military historians if you think the urban nightmare of “house to house as seen in Anbar wasn’t interesting enough from the military pov.



< Message edited by Sarge -- 2/7/2009 12:43:06 PM >

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Post #: 4
RE: War history - 2/7/2009 1:06:31 PM   
leastonh1


Posts: 879
Joined: 2/12/2005
From: West Yorkshire, England
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Lützow
However, modern conflicts don't know heroes anymore and are not interesting enough to get debated from a militairy pov.

If you're saying that anyone who has the courage to go into combat isn't a hero, you are very wrong imho.

I agree with what Sarge said really, but felt the need to add my 2p worth.

_____________________________

2nd Lt. George Rice: Looks like you guys are going to be surrounded.
Richard Winters: We're paratroopers, Lieutenant, we're supposed to be surrounded.

(in reply to Lützow)
Post #: 5
RE: War history - 2/7/2009 1:55:28 PM   
06 Maestro


Posts: 3988
Joined: 10/12/2005
From: Nevada, USA
Status: offline 		Zakhal
Well, this looks to be a world wide situation. I seldom meet anyone with an interest in history, much less so an iterest in military gaming. When I was a kid there were a few guys that would play some A?H games-those days are gone.

On the flip side, when engaging in a conversation with someone with some historical knowledge, I appreciate the info flow that much more.

_____________________________

Banking establishments are more dangerous than standing armies.

Thomas Jefferson


(in reply to leastonh1)
Post #: 6
RE: War history - 2/7/2009 1:56:41 PM   
Lützow


Posts: 1517
Joined: 7/22/2008
From: Germany
Status: offline 		No, I don't want to belittle anyones courage or conscientiousness but in my opinion modern technology is taking out the human factor. There are no fighter aces anymore, no Wittman's or Rudel's and with the disappearance of traditional warfare, the heroes vanished as well. Dunno why I feel that way, maybe I just lack of affilations to modern conflicts. That being said, I have strong perceptions about Bulge Battle, Kursk or Stalingrad but don't care a bit about Afghanistan, even German soldiers are involved there as well. It's simply not the same as WWII.

Guess what I mean ?


(in reply to leastonh1)
Post #: 7
RE: War history - 2/7/2009 2:17:16 PM   
leastonh1


Posts: 879
Joined: 2/12/2005
From: West Yorkshire, England
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Lützow
No, I don't want to belittle anyones courage or conscientiousness but in my opinion modern technology is taking out the human factor. There are no fighter aces anymore, no Wittman's or Rudel's and with the disappearance of traditional warfare, the heroes vanished as well. Dunno why I feel that way, maybe I just lack of affilations to modern conflicts. That being said, I have strong perceptions about Bulge Battle, Kursk or Stalingrad but don't care a bit about Afghanistan, even German soldiers are involved there as well. It's simply not the same as WWII.
Guess what I mean ?

Your sentiment is lost on me, I'm afraid. How can you say that there are no heroes? I think our definitions and interpretation of the word "hero" must differ greatly.

I don't think there's any such thing as traditional warfare. Warfare is warfare. Yes, the equipment changes and lethality/accuracy of weapons improve (for want of a better word), but it's still all about the same as it has always been.

Then again, I've never been into a warzone and have only a layman's take on military matters. What do I know?

_____________________________

2nd Lt. George Rice: Looks like you guys are going to be surrounded.
Richard Winters: We're paratroopers, Lieutenant, we're supposed to be surrounded.

(in reply to Lützow)
Post #: 8
RE: War history - 2/7/2009 2:41:55 PM   
Sarge


Posts: 2841
Joined: 3/1/2003
From: ask doggie
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Lützow

No, I don't want to belittle anyones courage or conscientiousness but in my opinion modern technology is taking out the human factor. There are no fighter aces anymore, no Wittman's or Rudel's and with the disappearance of traditional warfare, the heroes vanished as well. Dunno why I feel that way, maybe I just lack of affilations to modern conflicts. That being said, I have strong perceptions about Bulge Battle, Kursk or Stalingrad but don't care a bit about Afghanistan, even German soldiers are involved there as well. It's simply not the same as WWII.

Guess what I mean ?



Well irregardless of the differences in technology that have been applied to the modern battlefield vs. WWII as in comparison to historical military conflicts across the ages there are still one variable yet to change.

Tactics

In the end that’s what war gamming is all about …….right

There is plenty of material/examples in the current conflict that individual heroism and especially tactics accumulated on battlefields throughout military history have been applied making the difference between victory and defeat irregardless of forces involved .




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Post #: 9
RE: War history - 2/7/2009 3:31:06 PM   
Lützow


Posts: 1517
Joined: 7/22/2008
From: Germany
Status: offline 		Well, I'm afraid that I'm going to be misunderstood here.

To paraphrase it. Can you tell me someobody, namely, in today's wars who took down 50 enemy planes or stopped an opposing advance single-handedly ? Where are the Patton's, McArthur's and Rommel's gone ? My point is that asynchronous warfare between high-tech soldiers on one side and terrorists on the other, don't leave room anymore for those shining knights in their steel beasts or aircrafts, as we remember them from WW2.

(in reply to Sarge)
Post #: 10
RE: War history - 2/7/2009 4:02:23 PM   
vonRocko

 

Posts: 1436
Joined: 11/4/2008
Status: offline 		  I understand where Lutzow's coming from. Yes there are always heroes. It is the nature of modern war that is hard to identify with. We don't fight wars with corps and divisions lined up with similar enemy corps and divisions. There is no ebb and flow of battle and strategy. All you have is occupation and patrol actions. It is hard to compare the firefights with guerilla/insurgents and roadside patrols, with epic battles like Normandy or Stalingrad.
The courage and honor of soldiers has always been there,and will never change. Today,there are no frontlines to follow or even a good measure of winning and losing. It is only killing. A booby trap goes off,some militia are scattered,in the same towns and countries,month after month. very sad state of affairs.

just my thoughts. Thanks

p.s.-I pity future gamers,this period of war will be boring to simulate. Imagine a game where you just patrol the same village month after month.

(in reply to Lützow)
Post #: 11
RE: War history - 2/7/2009 4:59:33 PM   
Sarge


Posts: 2841
Joined: 3/1/2003
From: ask doggie
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Lützow

Well, I'm afraid that I'm going to be misunderstood here.

To paraphrase it. Can you tell me someobody, namely, in today's wars who took down 50 enemy planes or stopped an opposing advance single-handedly ? Where are the Patton's, McArthur's and Rommel's gone ? My point is that asynchronous warfare between high-tech soldiers on one side and terrorists on the other, don't leave room anymore for those shining knights in their steel beasts or aircrafts, as we remember them from WW2.

Is that a real question ?

I’m afraid you’re a-little delusional on current and historical military conflict, but the good news is your in the right place.

Keep reading

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Post #: 12
RE: War history - 2/7/2009 5:14:39 PM   
Sarge


Posts: 2841
Joined: 3/1/2003
From: ask doggie
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: vonRocko
p.s.-I pity future gamers,this period of war will be boring to simulate. Imagine a game where you just patrol the same village month after month.



There are quite a few titles covering modern warfare and tactics deployed, but I doubt any of them cover the same “village” throughout the entire game.

Take for instance :
Close Combat: Modern Tactics,Flash Point German,,Harpoon along with others right here at Matrix not to mention Combat Mission shock force over at BF

Take a look, you might just change your perceptions of brut force V’s some ragtag militia


PS: If you pick of ether CMSF or CCMT look me up Ill play the underdog

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Post #: 13
RE: War history - 2/7/2009 5:25:16 PM   
leastonh1


Posts: 879
Joined: 2/12/2005
From: West Yorkshire, England
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Sarge
PS: If you pick of ether CMSF or CCMT look me up Ill play the underdog

LOL! I think that's called "throwing down the gauntlet"!

_____________________________

2nd Lt. George Rice: Looks like you guys are going to be surrounded.
Richard Winters: We're paratroopers, Lieutenant, we're supposed to be surrounded.

(in reply to Sarge)
Post #: 14
RE: War history - 2/7/2009 5:32:46 PM   
Lützow


Posts: 1517
Joined: 7/22/2008
From: Germany
Status: offline 		CMSF is a good example, unlike the precursor titles I found it boring as hell.

It also showed the problem of depicturing asynchronous warfare. Since you hardly can include civilians in a wargame, there were assassins arising from nothingness.

(in reply to Sarge)
Post #: 15
RE: War history - 2/7/2009 5:43:05 PM   
sullafelix

 

Posts: 1520
Joined: 1/11/2005
Status: offline 		" Close Combat: Modern Tactics,Flash Point German,,Harpoon "

These games are all done with the premise of a large scale modern version of WW2. I don't believe he means there are no heroes anymore ( I hope ). I believe he is saying that war is really now done on small scale unit tactics. A person who cleans a house single handedly in modern combat is a hero but there will never be a Wittman or Murphy, someone like that to stop a division in its tracks because divisions will no longer be fighting.

Insurgency even during earlier times is a very hard task to wargame unless you are a Squad leader type of game player. I will play small unit games every once in a while but much prefer strategic or operational games myself.

(in reply to leastonh1)
Post #: 16
RE: War history - 2/7/2009 5:46:47 PM   
Jeffrey H.


Posts: 3154
Joined: 4/13/2007
From: San Diego, Ca.
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Lützow

Well, I'm afraid that I'm going to be misunderstood here.

To paraphrase it. Can you tell me someobody, namely, in today's wars who took down 50 enemy planes or stopped an opposing advance single-handedly ? Where are the Patton's, McArthur's and Rommel's gone ? My point is that asynchronous warfare between high-tech soldiers on one side and terrorists on the other, don't leave room anymore for those shining knights in their steel beasts or aircrafts, as we remember them from WW2.


They're around, you need to look harder. 'Mad Dog' Mattis is one. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Mattis

The scale of conflicts is lower for sure but the basic elements are all there.

Read some of the new books available regarding the second Iraq war, particularly the thunder runs into Baghdad. These runs were shoestring efforts by some very brave and daring people. It was not as asymmetric as you might think.



_____________________________

History began July 4th, 1776. Anything before that was a mistake.

Ron Swanson

(in reply to Lützow)
Post #: 17
RE: War history - 2/7/2009 6:25:14 PM   
Lützow


Posts: 1517
Joined: 7/22/2008
From: Germany
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Jeffrey H.


Read some of the new books available regarding the second Iraq war, particularly the thunder runs into Baghdad. These runs were shoestring efforts by some very brave and daring people. It was not as asymmetric as you might think.


Thank you. Will look at Amazon if it got translated and published in Germany.

Anyway, by reading the posts here, I think the whole argument is about perception. What some call heroism in modern conflicts, I would rather name bravery. Heroes are, in my opinion, those people, who became famous for their outstanding individual performance.

(in reply to Jeffrey H.)
Post #: 18
RE: War history - 2/7/2009 6:43:15 PM   
leastonh1


Posts: 879
Joined: 2/12/2005
From: West Yorkshire, England
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Lützow
Anyway, by reading the posts here, I think the whole argument is about perception. What some call heroism in modern conflicts, I would rather name bravery. Heroes are, in my opinion, those people, who became famous for their outstanding individual performance.

I agree with this, up to a point. I think there are still heroes comparable to those you mention from WWII. The difference being that the way modern conflicts are fought means were probably don't get to know about much of what really goes on and the names of those involved, with the odd exception. I'm not trying to diminish their achievements or bravery, but some of those portrayed as outstanding heroes from WWII have become more famous in part due to propoganda (for the home front as much as the enemy) and after the fact. I'm willing to bet much of the history we now take for granted in the books about WWII was not common knowledge or made public at the time.

I've probably worded that last part badly and didn't mean to be disrespectful to those we call heroes.

< Message edited by Jim_H -- 2/7/2009 6:44:34 PM >

_____________________________

2nd Lt. George Rice: Looks like you guys are going to be surrounded.
Richard Winters: We're paratroopers, Lieutenant, we're supposed to be surrounded.

(in reply to Lützow)
Post #: 19
RE: War history - 2/7/2009 8:29:21 PM   
sabre1


Posts: 1928
Joined: 8/15/2001
From: CA
Status: offline 		I agree with Lutzow, and I see Jim's point...(as if you all care).

I also agree with Zakhal.  In my immediate circle of friends and acquaintances, I know of no one that has my interest in history much less military history.  I love you guys, here at Matrix, but that being said it's rather lonely not to be able to share your passion face to face with someone (gave up crazy women after thrid divorce, of course that is a very subjective opinon .  The only person here at Matrix that is even close is the guy (forget his name at the moment) that lives in San Diego, I'm down near the border in the Colorado Desert.  Yeah, yep, there's just tons of militrary historians running around here. 

(in reply to leastonh1)
Post #: 20
RE: War history - 2/7/2009 9:15:39 PM   
leastonh1


Posts: 879
Joined: 2/12/2005
From: West Yorkshire, England
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: sabre1

I agree with Lutzow, and I see Jim's point...(as if you all care).

I also agree with Zakhal.  In my immediate circle of friends and acquaintances, I know of no one that has my interest in history much less military history.  I love you guys, here at Matrix, but that being said it's rather lonely not to be able to share your passion face to face with someone (gave up crazy women after thrid divorce, of course that is a very subjective opinon .  The only person here at Matrix that is even close is the guy (forget his name at the moment) that lives in San Diego, I'm down near the border in the Colorado Desert.  Yeah, yep, there's just tons of militrary historians running around here. 

Of course we care!

Even excluding (as if I dare!) the games by Matrix, one of the main reasons I spend so much time with you guys on this forum is because it's the only place I get to talk rubbish all day long about gaming and military history without someone falling asleep. Well, ok, you lot might fall asleep at your PC's reading my posts, but if I can't see you do it, all is good hehe!! I try to talk to friends and family about it, but their eyes glaze over and that's the end of another conversation. What did we all do before the Internet?!?!



< Message edited by Jim_H -- 2/7/2009 9:16:06 PM >

_____________________________

2nd Lt. George Rice: Looks like you guys are going to be surrounded.
Richard Winters: We're paratroopers, Lieutenant, we're supposed to be surrounded.

(in reply to sabre1)
Post #: 21
RE: War history - 2/7/2009 9:52:00 PM   
junk2drive


Posts: 12907
Joined: 6/27/2002
From: Arizona West Coast
Status: offline 		Sabre1 ya gotta find a woman that likes history. Hang out in the right places.

(in reply to leastonh1)
Post #: 22
RE: War history - 2/7/2009 10:03:03 PM   
Lützow


Posts: 1517
Joined: 7/22/2008
From: Germany
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Jim_H

What did we all do before the Internet?!?!



About 20 years ago we had so-called 'computer clubs' here, where you could meet likeminded folks to share software and I also maintained a Compuserve account. However, the Internet was a huge improvement as it brought me in touch with people from different countries and enhanced my reading comprehension for English. So nowadays I don't need a dictionary anymore for playing wargames and can bother you with my poor worded postings.

(in reply to leastonh1)
Post #: 23
RE: War history - 2/7/2009 10:35:04 PM   
leastonh1


Posts: 879
Joined: 2/12/2005
From: West Yorkshire, England
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Lützow
About 20 years ago we had so-called 'computer clubs' here, where you could meet likeminded folks to share software and I also maintained a Compuserve account. However, the Internet was a huge improvement as it brought me in touch with people from different countries and enhanced my reading comprehension for English. So nowadays I don't need a dictionary anymore for playing wargames and can bother you with my poor worded postings.

I remember Compuserve being one of the most popular providers in the UK too. Didn't they used to run groups too? I'm ashamed to say Lützow that I don't speak German. Your posts are better worded than some English people I know!!

_____________________________

2nd Lt. George Rice: Looks like you guys are going to be surrounded.
Richard Winters: We're paratroopers, Lieutenant, we're supposed to be surrounded.

(in reply to Lützow)
Post #: 24
RE: War history - 2/8/2009 12:15:07 AM   
06 Maestro


Posts: 3988
Joined: 10/12/2005
From: Nevada, USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Jim_H
I try to talk to friends and family about it, but their eyes glaze over and that's the end of another conversation. What did we all do before the Internet?!?!


Don't put them to sleep with long stories-you'll get a bad rep. I like to go with one short and humorous or somehow pertinent story per day. This leads to a happy crew. It does nothing to satisfy any desire for a history based conversation.

_____________________________

Banking establishments are more dangerous than standing armies.

Thomas Jefferson


(in reply to leastonh1)
Post #: 25
RE: War history - 2/8/2009 1:51:25 AM   
sullafelix

 

Posts: 1520
Joined: 1/11/2005
Status: offline 		Try to remember your history teachers and do exactly the opposite that they did to you. Pick out fun facts like Augustus the Strong and his 150 children ( Saxe among them ) or Ben Franklin's 50 kids and how he was a member of the hellfire clubs. Point out that Lincoln freed no slaves whatsoever etc., Nero's attempt after attempt to kill his mother. Cassander being scared out of his wits by a statue of Alexander. Batsogne and the " nuts" answer to surrender. The Germans flying an entire plainload of condoms into Stalingrad. History can be fun.

I do however share your pain. It is upsetting when you take a book out of the library and notice that you were the last person to take it out six years ago.I knew three people studying to be history teachers and all three of them majored in US history since 1960. I had to tutor the two going for their masters on military history and European history in general ( I've never been to college ). I really liked George Carlin until he did a rant about wargamers. He really made us out to be some ghoulish sick twisted people, how dare we game war etc..

(in reply to 06 Maestro)
Post #: 26
RE: War history - 2/8/2009 8:45:03 AM   
sabre1


Posts: 1928
Joined: 8/15/2001
From: CA
Status: offline 		Jim,

Don't forget "The Source", and GENIE, with Aladdin UI.

I loved GENIE, and still have fond memories of Air Warrior.  Yep, I'm a Geezer.

(in reply to sullafelix)
Post #: 27
RE: War history - 2/8/2009 8:46:04 AM   
sabre1


Posts: 1928
Joined: 8/15/2001
From: CA
Status: offline 		Now where did I leave my cookies and warm milk before I trundle off to bed...

(in reply to sabre1)
Post #: 28
RE: War history - 2/8/2009 10:24:52 AM   
leastonh1


Posts: 879
Joined: 2/12/2005
From: West Yorkshire, England
Status: offline 		I'd forgotten about that one. Air Warrior is a game I remember playing until the wee small hours many times. Playing a game like that "online" was a jaw dropping experience back then. I'm sure I had a copy of that game for my Amiga too. So, thanks sabre1, I now feel like a Geezer too! Damn, I really need to stop reading these posts.

_____________________________

2nd Lt. George Rice: Looks like you guys are going to be surrounded.
Richard Winters: We're paratroopers, Lieutenant, we're supposed to be surrounded.

(in reply to sabre1)
Post #: 29
RE: War history - 2/8/2009 12:53:52 PM   
Phatguy

 

Posts: 1348
Joined: 3/1/2006
From: Buffalo,ny
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Lützow

When I was a kid, at family meetings my grand uncles were always talking about their experience from Russia and France. That's why I later got interested in wargaming and -history. But these generation extincted and with them the rememberance of WWII. However, modern conflicts don't know heroes anymore and are not interesting enough to get debated from a militairy pov.


I think the problem is that kids these days have way too many things assailing them from all directions. When I was growing up, computers were just sorta coming into the mainstream and was pretty much out of sight as a distraction. We either went outside and did whatever and when it got dark came in to either a) watch tv or b)play games. Now most dont even go outside and when they do come in look at the choices of entertainment they have.Sorry to say, boardgames fall into the same category as book(boring!) to most. Think how long it takes to learn a average wargame and set it up against an average video game..These days we are programmed to have everything "now". But it might be cyclical. The little kids now are listening to war stories from thier uncles, aunts cousins etc etc coming back from the Iraq and Afghanistan. Some of those kids might be fascinated enough to pick up a board/computer wargame.

(in reply to Lützow)
Post #: 30
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