Matrix Games Forums

Forums  Register  Login  Photo Gallery  Member List  Search  Calendars  FAQ 

My Profile  Inbox  Address Book  My Subscription  My Forums  Log Out

Why it's Just not Worth it Sometimes

 
View related threads: (in this forum | in all forums)

Logged in as: Guest
Users viewing this topic: none
  Printable Version
All Forums >> [Current Games From Matrix.] >> [World War II] >> War In The Pacific - Struggle Against Japan 1941 - 1945 >> Why it's Just not Worth it Sometimes Page: [1]
Login
Message << Older Topic   Newer Topic >>
Why it's Just not Worth it Sometimes - 1/25/2009 4:08:18 PM   
wwengr


Posts: 678
Joined: 1/14/2007
From: Menomonee Falls, Wisconsin, USA
Status: offline
01/02/42
Naval bombardment of Menado, at 39,67
Allied Ships
DD Express
DD Electra
DD Tenedos
DD Van Ghent
DD Piet Hein
DD Kortenaer
DD Evertsen
DD Witte de With
DD Van Nes
DD Banckert, on fire
DD Vendetta
DD Pillsbury
DD John D. Ford
Japanese ground losses:
197 casualties reported
Guns lost 5
=============================================
01/02/42
Day Air attack on TF, near Menado at 39,67
Japanese aircraft
A6M2 Zero x 44
D3A Val x 105
B5N Kate x 131
Japanese aircraft losses
D3A Val: 2 damaged
B5N Kate: 1 destroyed, 8 damaged
Allied Ships
DD Piet Hein
DD Evertsen, Torpedo hits 2, on fire, heavy damage
DD John D. Ford, Bomb hits 5, Torpedo hits 2, on fire, heavy damage
DD Banckert, Bomb hits 3, Torpedo hits 2, on fire, heavy damage
DD Van Ghent, Bomb hits 1, Torpedo hits 2, on fire, heavy damage
DD Express, Bomb hits 3, on fire, heavy damage
DD Tenedos, Bomb hits 6, on fire, heavy damage
DD Electra, Bomb hits 2, Torpedo hits 2, on fire, heavy damage
DD Kortenaer
DD Vendetta, Bomb hits 3, Torpedo hits 4, on fire, heavy damage
DD Van Nes, Bomb hits 1, on fire
DD Witte de With
DD Pillsbury, Bomb hits 1, Torpedo hits 2, on fire, heavy damage
Aircraft Attacking:
1 x D3A Val bombing at 2000 feet
4 x B5N Kate launching torpedoes at 200 feet
3 x B5N Kate launching torpedoes at 200 feet
3 x D3A Val bombing at 2000 feet
4 x B5N Kate launching torpedoes at 200 feet
1 x D3A Val bombing at 2000 feet
3 x B5N Kate launching torpedoes at 200 feet
4 x D3A Val bombing at 2000 feet
4 x B5N Kate launching torpedoes at 200 feet
4 x D3A Val bombing at 2000 feet
4 x B5N Kate launching torpedoes at 200 feet
4 x D3A Val bombing at 2000 feet
4 x D3A Val bombing at 2000 feet
4 x D3A Val bombing at 2000 feet
4 x D3A Val bombing at 2000 feet
4 x D3A Val bombing at 2000 feet
4 x B5N Kate launching torpedoes at 200 feet
4 x B5N Kate launching torpedoes at 200 feet
4 x B5N Kate launching torpedoes at 200 feet
4 x B5N Kate launching torpedoes at 200 feet
4 x B5N Kate launching torpedoes at 200 feet
4 x B5N Kate launching torpedoes at 200 feet
4 x B5N Kate launching torpedoes at 200 feet
4 x B5N Kate launching torpedoes at 200 feet
4 x B5N Kate launching torpedoes at 200 feet
4 x B5N Kate launching torpedoes at 200 feet
4 x D3A Val bombing at 2000 feet
4 x D3A Val bombing at 2000 feet
4 x D3A Val bombing at 2000 feet
4 x D3A Val bombing at 2000 feet
4 x B5N Kate launching torpedoes at 200 feet
4 x B5N Kate launching torpedoes at 200 feet
4 x B5N Kate launching torpedoes at 200 feet
4 x D3A Val bombing at 2000 feet
4 x D3A Val bombing at 2000 feet
4 x D3A Val bombing at 2000 feet
4 x D3A Val bombing at 2000 feet
4 x B5N Kate launching torpedoes at 200 feet
4 x B5N Kate launching torpedoes at 200 feet
4 x B5N Kate launching torpedoes at 200 feet
4 x B5N Kate launching torpedoes at 200 feet
4 x D3A Val bombing at 2000 feet
4 x D3A Val bombing at 2000 feet
4 x D3A Val bombing at 2000 feet
4 x D3A Val bombing at 2000 feet
4 x D3A Val bombing at 2000 feet
4 x B5N Kate launching torpedoes at 200 feet
4 x B5N Kate launching torpedoes at 200 feet
4 x B5N Kate launching torpedoes at 200 feet
4 x B5N Kate launching torpedoes at 200 feet
4 x B5N Kate launching torpedoes at 200 feet
4 x D3A Val bombing at 2000 feet
4 x D3A Val bombing at 2000 feet
4 x D3A Val bombing at 2000 feet
4 x D3A Val bombing at 2000 feet
4 x D3A Val bombing at 2000 feet
4 x B5N Kate launching torpedoes at 200 feet
4 x B5N Kate launching torpedoes at 200 feet
4 x B5N Kate launching torpedoes at 200 feet
4 x B5N Kate launching torpedoes at 200 feet
4 x B5N Kate launching torpedoes at 200 feet
=============================================
01/02/42
Day Air attack on TF, near Menado at 39,67
Japanese aircraft
Ki-21 Sally x 8
No Japanese losses
Allied Ships
DD Piet Hein
Aircraft Attacking:
4 x Ki-21 Sally bombing at 12000 feet
4 x Ki-21 Sally bombing at 12000 feet
=============================================
01/02/42
Day Air attack on TF, near Menado at 39,67
Japanese aircraft
A6M2 Zero x 43
D3A Val x 102
B5N Kate x 54
Japanese aircraft losses
B5N Kate: 5 damaged
Allied Ships
DD Van Nes, Bomb hits 1, Torpedo hits 2, on fire, heavy damage
DD Piet Hein, Bomb hits 3, Torpedo hits 2, on fire, heavy damage
DD Kortenaer, Bomb hits 5, Torpedo hits 2, on fire, heavy damage
DD Witte de With, Bomb hits 5, Torpedo hits 1, on fire, heavy damage
Aircraft Attacking:
4 x D3A Val bombing at 2000 feet
1 x B5N Kate launching torpedoes at 200 feet
3 x D3A Val bombing at 2000 feet
2 x B5N Kate launching torpedoes at 200 feet
1 x D3A Val bombing at 2000 feet
4 x D3A Val bombing at 2000 feet
3 x B5N Kate launching torpedoes at 200 feet
2 x D3A Val bombing at 2000 feet
4 x D3A Val bombing at 2000 feet
4 x D3A Val bombing at 2000 feet
4 x D3A Val bombing at 2000 feet
4 x D3A Val bombing at 2000 feet
4 x B5N Kate launching torpedoes at 200 feet
4 x B5N Kate launching torpedoes at 200 feet
4 x B5N Kate launching torpedoes at 200 feet
4 x B5N Kate launching torpedoes at 200 feet
4 x B5N Kate launching torpedoes at 200 feet
4 x D3A Val bombing at 2000 feet
4 x D3A Val bombing at 2000 feet
4 x D3A Val bombing at 2000 feet
4 x D3A Val bombing at 2000 feet
4 x D3A Val bombing at 2000 feet
4 x B5N Kate launching torpedoes at 200 feet
4 x B5N Kate launching torpedoes at 200 feet
4 x D3A Val bombing at 2000 feet
4 x D3A Val bombing at 2000 feet
4 x D3A Val bombing at 2000 feet
4 x D3A Val bombing at 2000 feet
4 x D3A Val bombing at 2000 feet
4 x D3A Val bombing at 2000 feet
4 x D3A Val bombing at 2000 feet
4 x D3A Val bombing at 2000 feet
4 x B5N Kate launching torpedoes at 200 feet
4 x B5N Kate launching torpedoes at 200 feet
4 x B5N Kate launching torpedoes at 200 feet
4 x B5N Kate launching torpedoes at 200 feet
4 x B5N Kate launching torpedoes at 200 feet
4 x D3A Val bombing at 2000 feet
4 x D3A Val bombing at 2000 feet
4 x D3A Val bombing at 2000 feet
4 x D3A Val bombing at 2000 feet
4 x D3A Val bombing at 2000 feet

All Destroyers sunk...

_____________________________

I have been inputting my orders for the campaign game first turn since July 4, 2009. I'm getting close. In another month or two, I might be able to run the turn!
Post #: 1
RE: Why it's Just not Worth it Sometimes - 1/25/2009 4:09:36 PM   
castor troy


Posts: 12781
Joined: 8/23/2004
From: Austria
Status: offline
hehe, I like it!

_____________________________


(in reply to wwengr)
Post #: 2
RE: Why it's Just not Worth it Sometimes - 1/25/2009 4:13:52 PM   
Barb


Posts: 2489
Joined: 2/27/2007
From: Bratislava, Slovakia
Status: offline
What commander ordered those precious escort ships to the waters in which KB is operating? Lets see 13 Destroyers of crew 150-200 that means almost 2000 sailors lost for nothing. If I were the men, I ll eat a bullet immediately.

_____________________________


(in reply to castor troy)
Post #: 3
RE: Why it's Just not Worth it Sometimes - 1/25/2009 4:17:05 PM   
wwengr


Posts: 678
Joined: 1/14/2007
From: Menomonee Falls, Wisconsin, USA
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Barb

What commander ordered those precious escort ships to the waters in which KB is operating? Lets see 13 Destroyers of crew 150-200 that means almost 2000 sailors lost for nothing. If I were the men, I ll eat a bullet immediately.

Of course it was not all that bright to do that one. Summary execution for the Dutch Do 24k-2 and Catalina I crews that failed to spot the KB

_____________________________

I have been inputting my orders for the campaign game first turn since July 4, 2009. I'm getting close. In another month or two, I might be able to run the turn!

(in reply to Barb)
Post #: 4
RE: Why it's Just not Worth it Sometimes - 1/25/2009 4:18:34 PM   
Barb


Posts: 2489
Joined: 2/27/2007
From: Bratislava, Slovakia
Status: offline
Well, I will order them to be shot, then shot myself. 

_____________________________


(in reply to wwengr)
Post #: 5
RE: Why it's Just not Worth it Sometimes - 1/25/2009 4:37:10 PM   
wwengr


Posts: 678
Joined: 1/14/2007
From: Menomonee Falls, Wisconsin, USA
Status: offline
Rather extraordinary. A total of six patrol squadrons with overlapping coverage, two Dutch with eight Do 24k-2 each, one with six Do 24k-2, one Dutch with seven Catalina I's, One Australian with ten Catalina I's, and two American each with twelve PBY Catalinas. All at 100% search and within normal range. Not a hint of the KB until after the airstrikes that came from two hexes southwest of Menado. This is probably the greatest failure of Naval Search possible!

Of course, it is stupid to run a bunch of destroyers into harms way for a Bombardment Mission (destroyers = pop guns) in support of a base that does not matter and in range of Japanese LBA.

Good thing, I was only running a series of tests that I set up to see if an effectve defense of the islands in that area can be mounted. Otherwise, I might be demoralized enough to go do some housework or something!

_____________________________

I have been inputting my orders for the campaign game first turn since July 4, 2009. I'm getting close. In another month or two, I might be able to run the turn!

(in reply to Barb)
Post #: 6
RE: Why it's Just not Worth it Sometimes - 1/25/2009 4:52:48 PM   
herwin

 

Posts: 6059
Joined: 5/28/2004
From: Sunderland, UK
Status: offline
How did you lose track of the KB? The way most players use it, you can see it clear across the Pacific.

_____________________________

Harry Erwin
"For a number to make sense in the game, someone has to calibrate it and program code. There are too many significant numbers that behave non-linearly to expect that. It's just a game. Enjoy it." herwin@btinternet.com

(in reply to wwengr)
Post #: 7
RE: Why it's Just not Worth it Sometimes - 1/25/2009 5:16:20 PM   
wwengr


Posts: 678
Joined: 1/14/2007
From: Menomonee Falls, Wisconsin, USA
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: herwin

How did you lose track of the KB? The way most players use it, you can see it clear across the Pacific.


Yes! Not knowing the current location of the KB and no intel on it for a few turns is good reason to keep everything out of harms way all over the map until it is re-aquired.

_____________________________

I have been inputting my orders for the campaign game first turn since July 4, 2009. I'm getting close. In another month or two, I might be able to run the turn!

(in reply to herwin)
Post #: 8
RE: Why it's Just not Worth it Sometimes - 1/25/2009 5:28:11 PM   
bradfordkay

 

Posts: 8647
Joined: 3/24/2002
From: Olympia, WA
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: herwin

How did you lose track of the KB? The way most players use it, you can see it clear across the Pacific.



I can tell you that my opponent must have some tricks to deal with this, as while I've read your comments on this numerous times - I rarely get any signals intel on the KB. And I watch both my Ops and SigInt report carefully every day.

_____________________________

fair winds,
Brad

(in reply to herwin)
Post #: 9
RE: Why it's Just not Worth it Sometimes - 1/25/2009 5:34:57 PM   
wwengr


Posts: 678
Joined: 1/14/2007
From: Menomonee Falls, Wisconsin, USA
Status: offline
I usually approach it this way... if I don't know where the KB is, I assume it is everywhere and operate in such a mannner as to be prepared for its arrival.  This not to say that I hide.  rather, I run reconnaisance well ahead of my operations.  Patrol planes on Naval search reaching a day or two ahead of me, a screen of submarines, etc.

If I know where it is, then I know I can run ops that extend a little further out in the areas where the KB is not.

_____________________________

I have been inputting my orders for the campaign game first turn since July 4, 2009. I'm getting close. In another month or two, I might be able to run the turn!

(in reply to bradfordkay)
Post #: 10
RE: Why it's Just not Worth it Sometimes - 1/25/2009 5:42:14 PM   
Yamato hugger

 

Posts: 5475
Joined: 10/5/2004
Status: offline
And the weather was what? Rain or thunderstorm?

_____________________________


(in reply to wwengr)
Post #: 11
RE: Why it's Just not Worth it Sometimes - 1/25/2009 5:53:48 PM   
bradfordkay

 

Posts: 8647
Joined: 3/24/2002
From: Olympia, WA
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: wwengr

I usually approach it this way... if I don't know where the KB is, I assume it is everywhere and operate in such a mannner as to be prepared for its arrival.  This not to say that I hide.  rather, I run reconnaisance well ahead of my operations.  Patrol planes on Naval search reaching a day or two ahead of me, a screen of submarines, etc.

If I know where it is, then I know I can run ops that extend a little further out in the areas where the KB is not.


Same here, Bill... I try to very carefully recon as best as possible, and otherwise prepare for the worst!

_____________________________

fair winds,
Brad

(in reply to wwengr)
Post #: 12
RE: Why it's Just not Worth it Sometimes - 1/25/2009 8:42:08 PM   
herwin

 

Posts: 6059
Joined: 5/28/2004
From: Sunderland, UK
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: bradfordkay


quote:

ORIGINAL: herwin

How did you lose track of the KB? The way most players use it, you can see it clear across the Pacific.



I can tell you that my opponent must have some tricks to deal with this, as while I've read your comments on this numerous times - I rarely get any signals intel on the KB. And I watch both my Ops and SigInt report carefully every day.


Look for straight tracks--TFs move in straight lines at fairly constant speed for several days at a time.

_____________________________

Harry Erwin
"For a number to make sense in the game, someone has to calibrate it and program code. There are too many significant numbers that behave non-linearly to expect that. It's just a game. Enjoy it." herwin@btinternet.com

(in reply to bradfordkay)
Post #: 13
RE: Why it's Just not Worth it Sometimes - 1/25/2009 8:51:03 PM   
bradfordkay

 

Posts: 8647
Joined: 3/24/2002
From: Olympia, WA
Status: offline
Harry, I need to amend my comment... I very rarely get any sigint on shipping at sea. I always check the radio transmissions at xx,yy location - and those don't appear all that often...

_____________________________

fair winds,
Brad

(in reply to herwin)
Post #: 14
RE: Why it's Just not Worth it Sometimes - 1/25/2009 9:14:18 PM   
herwin

 

Posts: 6059
Joined: 5/28/2004
From: Sunderland, UK
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: bradfordkay

Harry, I need to amend my comment... I very rarely get any sigint on shipping at sea. I always check the radio transmissions at xx,yy location - and those don't appear all that often...


Yes, there may be gaps, but just check the next day at the next predicted location. Whenever you have long range patrols operating in the area, the KB shows up like a light bulb. That's nice if he runs it out of search range for a day or two--the detection level only drops one per day. If you've really lost it, try nosing around with a small surface vessel to attract an air strike. The most important factor in naval warfare is intelligence.

Question for the gurus--if you disband in port and organise a new CVTF, does it start out with a detection level of 0?

_____________________________

Harry Erwin
"For a number to make sense in the game, someone has to calibrate it and program code. There are too many significant numbers that behave non-linearly to expect that. It's just a game. Enjoy it." herwin@btinternet.com

(in reply to bradfordkay)
Post #: 15
RE: Why it's Just not Worth it Sometimes - 1/25/2009 10:05:00 PM   
John 3rd


Posts: 16601
Joined: 9/8/2005
From: La Salle, Colorado
Status: offline
13 Allied DD sunk in one day by the KB??!!  Fantastic!

Need to see if I can do that in my First Team AAR!



_____________________________



Member: Treaty, Reluctant Admiral and Between the Storms Mod Team.

Reluctant Admiral Mod:
https://sites.google.com/site/reluctantadmiral/

(in reply to herwin)
Post #: 16
RE: Why it's Just not Worth it Sometimes - 1/26/2009 8:03:46 PM   
ChezDaJez


Posts: 3435
Joined: 11/12/2004
From: Chehalis, WA
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: herwin


quote:

ORIGINAL: bradfordkay

Harry, I need to amend my comment... I very rarely get any sigint on shipping at sea. I always check the radio transmissions at xx,yy location - and those don't appear all that often...


Yes, there may be gaps, but just check the next day at the next predicted location. Whenever you have long range patrols operating in the area, the KB shows up like a light bulb. That's nice if he runs it out of search range for a day or two--the detection level only drops one per day. If you've really lost it, try nosing around with a small surface vessel to attract an air strike. The most important factor in naval warfare is intelligence.

Question for the gurus--if you disband in port and organise a new CVTF, does it start out with a detection level of 0?


I am Brad's opponent. I take great pains to keep KB hidden until I am ready to use it. I can't do anything about sigint but I can reduce their exposure. One of the ways I do this is to reduce the floatplane search radius in in KB to 1 hex and rely on land-based patrol to warn of danger when at sea. Land-based patrol doesn't always help but its better than nothing. I never use seabased torpedo or dive bombers for search unless allied CVs are suspected near. Nothing gives away KB more than an allied sub detection by a Judy or Jill in the middle of the ocean. I also keep a land-based Judy or Jill unit at any port KB may hide in just to keep Brad from using a sighting report from giving away KB. Plus they make handy replacements if needed.

I also tend to keep them in or near a port where the aircraft can train without fear of being attacked. I also try to avoid my main "shipping lanes" where I know his subs hang out unless I absolutely have to traverse the area. And I seldom have them on the same course for more than one day. I use waypoints to perform zig-zags. Obviously, if they have to be somewhere in a hurry, I don't have that luxury. Another thing I do is that I won't leave them in the same port for more than a week or so. I'll form them up and send them to another port or just leave them in the base hex for a few turns. I refuse to read allied intel reports but I will do everything I can to ensure they aren't very accurate.

And I make sure I stay out of his land-based search range. If I am expecting an invasion or attack, KB will patrol just beyond allied search range with the hope of being able to do a high speed run should the opportunity arise. Otherwise, its safer in port. Unfortunately, with the demosntrated range of his recon aircraft, my list of "secret" ports. Not to long ago, I moved a good part of KB to Buin as I suspected allied carriers were in or near Luganville. An F-5 (or was it an F-4) from Luganville reconned the port the following day. Doh! Needless to say, KB quickly found better waters to hide in.

Another thing I never, ever do is put more than 2 CVs in a KB TF and never more than 12 ships total. I want to keep the DL as low as possible. The only time I change that is when I am using my CVEs as decoys. I'll build a TF with 3-4 CVEs and 2 older BBs plus 15+ escorts to ensure a high DL. I sometimes send them out just to trigger allied search sightings and then move them before he can respond. I do this whether KB is in the area or not. Don't know how well this works but I feel safer.

Chez

_____________________________

Ret Navy AWCS (1972-1998)
VP-5, Jacksonville, Fl 1973-78
ASW Ops Center, Rota, Spain 1978-81
VP-40, Mt View, Ca 1981-87
Patrol Wing 10, Mt View, CA 1987-90
ASW Ops Center, Adak, Ak 1990-92
NRD Seattle 1992-96
VP-46, Whidbey Isl, Wa 1996-98

(in reply to herwin)
Post #: 17
RE: Why it's Just not Worth it Sometimes - 1/26/2009 8:46:06 PM   
bradfordkay

 

Posts: 8647
Joined: 3/24/2002
From: Olympia, WA
Status: offline
Sssssneaky little bugger!   But we don't hatessss him! 

_____________________________

fair winds,
Brad

(in reply to ChezDaJez)
Post #: 18
RE: Why it's Just not Worth it Sometimes - 1/26/2009 10:05:51 PM   
herwin

 

Posts: 6059
Joined: 5/28/2004
From: Sunderland, UK
Status: offline
You've had too much real-life experience! I do much the same--having worked on OBU.

_____________________________

Harry Erwin
"For a number to make sense in the game, someone has to calibrate it and program code. There are too many significant numbers that behave non-linearly to expect that. It's just a game. Enjoy it." herwin@btinternet.com

(in reply to ChezDaJez)
Post #: 19
RE: Why it's Just not Worth it Sometimes - 1/26/2009 10:58:23 PM   
AirGriff


Posts: 701
Joined: 10/11/2004
Status: offline
Chez' tactics work well.  In a previous pbem, early '42, I had a few US carriers run a raid into the Marshall's when my opponent revealed where KB was (which naturally wasn't in the Marshalls).  I apporached from Noumea, turned off all the lights, crept up on Kwajalein, turned the lights back on again, and "whalah!"  Popped a light carrier and some not so light escorts cruising about.  My opponent never saw it comin'.  Had to motor out of there pretty quick, of course, but what fun! 

(in reply to herwin)
Post #: 20
Page:   [1]
All Forums >> [Current Games From Matrix.] >> [World War II] >> War In The Pacific - Struggle Against Japan 1941 - 1945 >> Why it's Just not Worth it Sometimes Page: [1]
Jump to:





New Messages No New Messages
Hot Topic w/ New Messages Hot Topic w/o New Messages
Locked w/ New Messages Locked w/o New Messages
 Post New Thread
 Reply to Message
 Post New Poll
 Submit Vote
 Delete My Own Post
 Delete My Own Thread
 Rate Posts


Forum Software © ASPPlayground.NET Advanced Edition 2.4.5 ANSI

0.156