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Armour - Shock Attack or Deliberate

 
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Armour - Shock Attack or Deliberate - 1/24/2009 11:07:55 PM   
undercovergeek

 

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After reading a comment in Nemo's AAR about defeating the UK 18th Division with tanks, im inclined to ask if armour is best used on its own with a shock attack, followed up by a deliberate attack by troops, or is it best kept within the 'group' - but if that is the case is it better to shock if armour is present?

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RE: Armour - Shock Attack or Deliberate - 1/25/2009 12:17:36 AM   
Treznor


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not that I'm an expert, just starting the game a month and a half ago. But I noticed that when I do bring in my armor after my inf. have worn down the enemy I have a much higher success ratio. This might be because those are fresh units.

Its a good question to know.

< Message edited by Treznor -- 1/25/2009 12:18:12 AM >


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RE: Armour - Shock Attack or Deliberate - 1/25/2009 1:28:42 AM   
wdolson

 

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I would think that concentration should work better than a piece meal attack. 

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RE: Armour - Shock Attack or Deliberate - 1/25/2009 2:47:42 AM   
wwengr


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quote:

ORIGINAL: undercovergeek

After reading a comment in Nemo's AAR about defeating the UK 18th Division with tanks, im inclined to ask if armour is best used on its own with a shock attack, followed up by a deliberate attack by troops, or is it best kept within the 'group' - but if that is the case is it better to shock if armour is present?



What applies in the real world applies in WITP. All of the von Clausewitz Principles apply. In this case, we are talking about Mass - Apply overwhelming combat power at the decisive time and place. Piecemiel attacks are always bad. In the case of the WITP combat model, the greater the combat odds, the more disproportinate the results in favor of the more powerful force. One attack at 4:1 odds inflicts less casualties on the attacker and more casualties on the defender and has a higher chance to result in a denfender retreat or surrender than two attackes at 2:1 odds.

Additionally, there are combined arms effects to consider. The value of tanks in the battle for the attacker is pursuit of the enemy. An attacker that gets overwhelming odds against the defender and forces that defender to retreat can continue to prosecute the attack. The Armor units will purseu fast enough so that the attacker can follow and press a continuous attack. A defender that is forced to retreat will suffer a lot of disruption. continuing the attack as soon as possible will prevent the defending unit from recovering.

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RE: Armour - Shock Attack or Deliberate - 1/25/2009 3:46:56 AM   
Japan


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Well... there is one very important factor in the real world who is missing in WITP...   
The abilety for 12 000 men to take 390 000 prisioner...  something who happand sevral times IRL...  Of course not often, but from time to time some genius German commanders did it on the east front...   and of course the British in early war aiganst the Italiens..  and the Italiens aiganst the Ethopiens back in 37.

The factor of exelent chanse, oppertunity and gamble who can cause a fast and very small force to cut off and surrender massive quantitys of enamy forces...

Or the other way arround if you like... the small number holding out aiganst a huge number for a long long time, like the German Paratrops at Monte Casino under daliy air bombardments and hevy enamy fire refused to retreat.

Its my impression that in WITP "number" is a to important factor,  I think dedication, doctrines, experience, equicpmant and ledership should be more important then they are in WITP, afterall those factors and a tiny bit of luck is properbly what caused some of those interesting combat results from time to time.     

< Message edited by Japan -- 1/25/2009 3:53:45 AM >


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RE: Armour - Shock Attack or Deliberate - 1/25/2009 8:08:53 AM   
herwin

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: undercovergeek

After reading a comment in Nemo's AAR about defeating the UK 18th Division with tanks, im inclined to ask if armour is best used on its own with a shock attack, followed up by a deliberate attack by troops, or is it best kept within the 'group' - but if that is the case is it better to shock if armour is present?




I don't think the game engine produces realistic results for armoured assaults.

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RE: Armour - Shock Attack or Deliberate - 1/25/2009 11:20:17 AM   
Nemo121


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Aye, herwin, as usual, is right. The game engine doesn't produce realistic results in ground combat but particularly when you mass armour as the combat model was really never thought through in terms of "What will happen if armoured units shock and pursue on raillines ?"

If you can get a 2:1+ then, with armour, you are far better off choosing "Shock Attack" + "Pursue" as that means that the next turn your tank units will be 60 miles down the tracks facing an enemy who is 80% disrupted, highly fatigued AND has just lost 20% of his total unit strength ( above and beyond what was damaged during combat ) due to being forced to retreat from the previous hex.

Some games have a ban on PURSUE for just this reason but in my game vs 2ndACR there is no such ban and in 1943 and 44 it'll be my time to face massed armour in India.

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RE: Armour - Shock Attack or Deliberate - 1/25/2009 1:15:35 PM   
wwengr


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quote:

ORIGINAL: herwin


quote:

ORIGINAL: undercovergeek

After reading a comment in Nemo's AAR about defeating the UK 18th Division with tanks, im inclined to ask if armour is best used on its own with a shock attack, followed up by a deliberate attack by troops, or is it best kept within the 'group' - but if that is the case is it better to shock if armour is present?




I don't think the game engine produces realistic results for armoured assaults.

I think that there are numerous issues of what is realistic for Armored units in WITP. The terrain of almost the entire map is not good for tank battles or use the pursuit advantage of tanks. An interesting link with the stroy of the 7th Armoured Brigade in Burma illustrates how tanks were really of limited utility there: http://www.desertrat.brigades.btinternet.co.uk/7thAB1942.htm#JapBurma

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RE: Armour - Shock Attack or Deliberate - 1/25/2009 1:36:02 PM   
wwengr


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Japan

Well... there is one very important factor in the real world who is missing in WITP...   
The abilety for 12 000 men to take 390 000 prisioner...  something who happand sevral times IRL...  Of course not often, but from time to time some genius German commanders did it on the east front...   and of course the British in early war aiganst the Italiens..  and the Italiens aiganst the Ethopiens back in 37.

The factor of exelent chanse, oppertunity and gamble who can cause a fast and very small force to cut off and surrender massive quantitys of enamy forces...

Or the other way arround if you like... the small number holding out aiganst a huge number for a long long time, like the German Paratrops at Monte Casino under daliy air bombardments and hevy enamy fire refused to retreat.

Its my impression that in WITP "number" is a to important factor,  I think dedication, doctrines, experience, equicpmant and ledership should be more important then they are in WITP, afterall those factors and a tiny bit of luck is properbly what caused some of those interesting combat results from time to time.     


I will not argue the realism of the WITP ground combat model as we are all well aware of the deficiencies. While the system could not effectively replicate a Monte Cassino, look at what could happen, if you had a small force in a Fortification level 9 (x3 AV) urban hex (x4 AV) with high quality weapons, high experience, high morale, low disruption, 100 preparation points, and plenty of supply. Add to that a high quality unit leader with high Inspiration and high Land Skill. Add also a Corp Headquarters and a Command Headquarters in range of the unit. Under these circumstances it is actually quite easy for a very small defending force to repeatedly issue a serious drubbing to a very large attacking force.

In a WITP model, the battle for the Monte Cassino Abbey is too small of a scale to be modelled. It would be seen in terms of the larger scale assault on the Gustav line in the area of Cassino.

< Message edited by wwengr -- 1/25/2009 1:37:57 PM >


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RE: Armour - Shock Attack or Deliberate - 1/25/2009 1:58:51 PM   
Yamato hugger

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: undercovergeek

After reading a comment in Nemo's AAR about defeating the UK 18th Division with tanks, im inclined to ask if armour is best used on its own with a shock attack, followed up by a deliberate attack by troops, or is it best kept within the 'group' - but if that is the case is it better to shock if armour is present?



Check the manual on ground attacks (my wife hid mine). Somewhere in there it tells you that armor gets a bonus on shock attack (and for the life of me I dont remember what it is - maybe times two AV?).

< Message edited by Yamato hugger -- 1/25/2009 1:59:10 PM >


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RE: Armour - Shock Attack or Deliberate - 1/25/2009 2:26:56 PM   
wwengr


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Yamato hugger

quote:

ORIGINAL: undercovergeek

After reading a comment in Nemo's AAR about defeating the UK 18th Division with tanks, im inclined to ask if armour is best used on its own with a shock attack, followed up by a deliberate attack by troops, or is it best kept within the 'group' - but if that is the case is it better to shock if armour is present?



Check the manual on ground attacks (my wife hid mine). Somewhere in there it tells you that armor gets a bonus on shock attack (and for the life of me I dont remember what it is - maybe times two AV?).


All units executing a Shock Attack get doubled AV. Defensive fires are doubled also. Armor units are generally high AV units, so a tank battalion has the same AV as an infantry regiment/brigade. An armor brigade has the AV of a Division. Additionally, armor units will perform very well against units that have a low Anti-Armor value. Tanks generally do well in shock attacks, but applying the same principles make them useful in deliberate attacks also.

In WITP terms, tanks are very valuable to the Allied player when invading atolls. They are small units with high AV, so they can unload in a single phase and shock attack (use LST/LCT).

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RE: Armour - Shock Attack or Deliberate - 1/25/2009 2:34:40 PM   
Yamato hugger

 

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Check the rules. Armor get some advantage on shock attack that other units dont get.

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RE: Armour - Shock Attack or Deliberate - 1/25/2009 3:30:31 PM   
wwengr


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I checked all references in the WITP manual by searching on "Shock", "Armor", and "Tank". There was no explicit advantage for Armor units in Shock Attacks. I also looked thourhg the manual project and read through the relevant Must Read Threads and found nothing.

There is a simple logical advantage to Armor units in Shock Attacks. They are small units with high AV. the attacker's AV is doubled in a shock attack. Additionally, armor units have greater protecion against bombardment and defensive fires and are more likely to come out with fewer losses and less disruption. Of course, if the defender has many devices with a high Anti-Armor value, then all bets are off regarding greater protection.

< Message edited by wwengr -- 1/25/2009 3:31:46 PM >


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RE: Armour - Shock Attack or Deliberate - 1/25/2009 3:33:40 PM   
herwin

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Nemo121

Aye, herwin, as usual, is right. The game engine doesn't produce realistic results in ground combat but particularly when you mass armour as the combat model was really never thought through in terms of "What will happen if armoured units shock and pursue on raillines ?"

If you can get a 2:1+ then, with armour, you are far better off choosing "Shock Attack" + "Pursue" as that means that the next turn your tank units will be 60 miles down the tracks facing an enemy who is 80% disrupted, highly fatigued AND has just lost 20% of his total unit strength ( above and beyond what was damaged during combat ) due to being forced to retreat from the previous hex.

Some games have a ban on PURSUE for just this reason but in my game vs 2ndACR there is no such ban and in 1943 and 44 it'll be my time to face massed armour in India.


In the design I'm working on, I'm planning to handle that by keeping track of the operational situation and modelling exploitation and pursuit directly. Don't let motorised or air-mobile forces get into your logistics zone, or you can expect your opponent to dance on your head until his force outruns its supply a couple hundred miles down the road. During manoeuvre warfare, units control less frontage, and the position can be expected to come unglued (which is why solid garrisons will be needed in depth).

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RE: Armour - Shock Attack or Deliberate - 1/25/2009 4:02:04 PM   
Yamato hugger

 

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Must be in the PacWar rules then.

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RE: Armour - Shock Attack or Deliberate - 1/25/2009 4:50:53 PM   
herwin

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: wwengr

I checked all references in the WITP manual by searching on "Shock", "Armor", and "Tank". There was no explicit advantage for Armor units in Shock Attacks. I also looked thourhg the manual project and read through the relevant Must Read Threads and found nothing.

There is a simple logical advantage to Armor units in Shock Attacks. They are small units with high AV. the attacker's AV is doubled in a shock attack. Additionally, armor units have greater protecion against bombardment and defensive fires and are more likely to come out with fewer losses and less disruption. Of course, if the defender has many devices with a high Anti-Armor value, then all bets are off regarding greater protection.


In reality, it's more complicated. Armoured vehicles can suppress infantry positions on their own, but they may need supporting infantry for target acquisition, engineering support, and defence against short-range AT weapons. The game engine I'm designing has two kinds of close assault: hasty ("overrun" or "shock") and prepared ("set-piece"), and two unit formations: ployed ("movement") and deployed ("combat"). A unit defending can be fortified, in a prepared defence ("dug in"), in a hasty defense (with at most, simple field fortifications), or in reserve (out of contact and ready to react). A unit may also be doing an administrative movement. Unit tactical and operational mobility affects how these aspects interact.

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RE: Armour - Shock Attack or Deliberate - 1/25/2009 5:11:23 PM   
wwengr


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I am seriously off topic here, but...

Don't forget tactical smoke in your model. Not sure how much it was used in the Iraq War drive on Baghdad, but during Desert Storm, 1st Cavalry Division used it extensively in breaching operations against prepared Iraqi positions north of Hafr Al Batin. Thes operations occured in the ten days preceding the ground offensive and were aimed at deceiving the Iraqi's with regard to the main axis of advance (which went further west).

The smoke came from mechanized smoke platoons from 44th Chemical Company, 2AD; 68th Chemical Company, 1st Cav; and Fires from 3-82 FA, 1st Cav.

An interesting and not well known set of operations in the Ruqi Pocket called Berm Buster, Red Storm, and Knight Strike...

< Message edited by wwengr -- 1/25/2009 5:12:01 PM >


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RE: Armour - Shock Attack or Deliberate - 1/25/2009 8:27:54 PM   
LargeSlowTarget


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Yamato hugger
Check the manual on ground attacks (my wife hid mine).


You don't keep a copy at work?!? Amateur...

I have made painful experience with shock attack + pursue orders for armoured units. The enemy retreated, my armour went ahead - and got counterattack by fresh enemy units in the new hex. The enemy must have been waiting in ambush or just having moved into the hex. My armour had to retreat and the Tank Rgts were badly mauled. Not a god thing in view of Japanese production figures for armour...

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RE: Armour - Shock Attack or Deliberate - 1/25/2009 8:57:11 PM   
herwin

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: wwengr

I am seriously off topic here, but...

Don't forget tactical smoke in your model. Not sure how much it was used in the Iraq War drive on Baghdad, but during Desert Storm, 1st Cavalry Division used it extensively in breaching operations against prepared Iraqi positions north of Hafr Al Batin. Thes operations occured in the ten days preceding the ground offensive and were aimed at deceiving the Iraqi's with regard to the main axis of advance (which went further west).

The smoke came from mechanized smoke platoons from 44th Chemical Company, 2AD; 68th Chemical Company, 1st Cav; and Fires from 3-82 FA, 1st Cav.

An interesting and not well known set of operations in the Ruqi Pocket called Berm Buster, Red Storm, and Knight Strike...


I remember reading бронированных боевых (Armored Warfare)--the Soviet manual on their armoured warfare doctrine. Dick Simpkin told me to take a careful look at the chapter on the use of smoke, where it showed T62s emerging from the front edge of a smokescreen. Can you spell silhouetted?

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RE: Armour - Shock Attack or Deliberate - 1/25/2009 9:30:29 PM   
Boozecamp

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Japan

Well... there is one very important factor in the real world who is missing in WITP...   
The abilety for 12 000 men to take 390 000 prisioner...  something who happand sevral times IRL...  and the Italiens aiganst the Ethopiens back in 37.


Yes, yes, excellent example. The mighty Italian army steamrolling that eminently capable Ethiopian army. The elite forces of Haile Selassie humbled by the Duce's Fascist juggernaut.

Makes me wish I could've seen Brihuega firsthand.

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RE: Armour - Shock Attack or Deliberate - 1/25/2009 9:50:24 PM   
AirGriff


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So, to turn things around a bit, how well do the Aussie AT units do at blunting such attacks.  Me thinks I'm about to get mixed up in a big tank fight in India.  Not that I have many tanks, but I do have some of those  Aussie AT units (battalions, I think, with 50+ 57mm AT guns).

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RE: Armour - Shock Attack or Deliberate - 1/25/2009 11:36:20 PM   
Japan


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quote:

ORIGINAL: AirGriff

So, to turn things around a bit, how well do the Aussie AT units do at blunting such attacks.  Me thinks I'm about to get mixed up in a big tank fight in India.  Not that I have many tanks, but I do have some of those  Aussie AT units (battalions, I think, with 50+ 57mm AT guns).



He He.. My Tanks will run over your AT guns hihi


Na, Actualy I think the 57mm is a very good gun for what it was (at least irl).. In the game it semes to be moddeled with pritty good stats as well I think.

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RE: Armour - Shock Attack or Deliberate - 1/26/2009 5:35:20 AM   
Boozecamp

 

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Might try mustard gas against those 6 pdrs. Heard it works pretty good against Ethiopian tribesmen as well.

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RE: Armour - Shock Attack or Deliberate - 1/26/2009 5:43:55 AM   
Japan


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Boozecamp

Might try mustard gas against those 6 pdrs. Heard it works pretty good against Ethiopian tribesmen as well.




Well... If I was to use mustard gas I would used in on the beaches in Normandy, and I would used it in Huge quantityes.





< Message edited by Japan -- 1/26/2009 5:44:41 AM >


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RE: Armour - Shock Attack or Deliberate - 1/27/2009 10:04:50 PM   
AirGriff


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quote:

He He.. My Tanks will run over your AT guns hihi


Na, Actualy I think the 57mm is a very good gun for what it was (at least irl).. In the game it semes to be moddeled with pritty good stats as well I think.


Ha!  Those AT's seem to have bluffed all those tanks of yours.  Your tankers don't seem to want to play  

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RE: Armour - Shock Attack or Deliberate - 1/28/2009 1:26:12 AM   
wwengr


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Japan

quote:

ORIGINAL: Boozecamp

Might try mustard gas against those 6 pdrs. Heard it works pretty good against Ethiopian tribesmen as well.




Well... If I was to use mustard gas I would used in on the beaches in Normandy, and I would used it in Huge quantityes.






Well as long as we are hopelessly off topic... mustard would be a poor choice of a weapon on the beaches. While it is very insoluble in water, it has a variety of characteristics that make it undesirable.

  • It is easy to detect, so follow on forces would have adequate protection. The allies were actually relatively well prepared to respond to a chemical attack at Normandy.
  • Mustard takes many hours after exposure to produce casualties, so initial landing forces would still have been able to take the beaches before becoming casualties.
  • Mustard is a very difficult liquid agent in terms of handling and is dependent upon wind dispersal. Too much effort, too slow to have the desired effect, too much risk to the defenders in close proximity.

better choice would be one of the more persistent G-series agents. Probably GF - Cyclosarin. Low vapor pressure, so it stays as a liquid and presents less risk to the nearby defenders. Very strong organophosphate with rapid effects. It would have the American soldiers doing the funky chicken and the dying cockaroach before they got off the beach.

But, then again, maybe we should talk about WITP here... I don't know, just a weird idea...


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RE: Armour - Shock Attack or Deliberate - 1/28/2009 11:31:06 AM   
wdolson

 

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It's probably a good thing that chemical weapons in WW II were considered so nasty that everyone decided not to use them for fear somebody else would in return.

By 1944, the Germans probably realized that if they used chemical weapons just once the RAF and 8th AF would likely be dropping them in large quantities on German cities within weeks.

Bill


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RE: Armour - Shock Attack or Deliberate - 1/28/2009 12:31:33 PM   
Japan


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quote:

ORIGINAL: wdolson

It's probably a good thing that chemical weapons in WW II were considered so nasty that everyone decided not to use them for fear somebody else would in return.

By 1944, the Germans probably realized that if they used chemical weapons just once the RAF and 8th AF would likely be dropping them in large quantities on German cities within weeks.

Bill




I agree that Allies might have used them as well, but if I had been the boss I would used them, simply because if the Allies successfully land in Normandy Germany would need to remove troops from the East front, something who would lead to a Soviet Victory (and then also would lead to a allied victroy).
So to avoid a landing and penetration in Normany I find it strange that Hitler did not use them.

I would also sent a notification via the German ambassador in Switzerland, that if the Allies bomb German Cites with chemical weapons then the V2's going to London will carry chemical weapons as well, then I would made a international demand that (bla bla bla... civilians are not to be deliberately targeted, and especially not with chemical weapons bla bla bla... and hoped for the best

< Message edited by Japan -- 1/28/2009 12:40:20 PM >


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(in reply to wdolson)
Post #: 28
RE: Armour - Shock Attack or Deliberate - 1/28/2009 12:41:27 PM   
AW1Steve


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From: Mordor Illlinois
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quote:

ORIGINAL: wdolson

It's probably a good thing that chemical weapons in WW II were considered so nasty that everyone decided not to use them for fear somebody else would in return.

By 1944, the Germans probably realized that if they used chemical weapons just once the RAF and 8th AF would likely be dropping them in large quantities on German cities within weeks.

Bill



My understanding is that Marshall and others on the joint chiefs wanted to use them for the invasion of Japan. The decision hadn't been finalized when Japan surrendered.

(in reply to wdolson)
Post #: 29
RE: Armour - Shock Attack or Deliberate - 1/28/2009 1:53:42 PM   
AirGriff


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As if the war wasn't nasty enough as it was.  Scary stuff. 

(in reply to AW1Steve)
Post #: 30
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