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When is enough..well...enough?

 
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When is enough..well...enough? - 1/20/2009 2:57:40 AM   
madgamer2

 

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Perhaps the answer to this question in the minds od most here on this forum....is never. First we have WitP...then AE.....then WitP 2, etc...etc. I think that Matrix new a good thing when it allowed members of the forum and long time players take part in what was then to be ....what? a one year (at the most) expansion for an already great selling game. Did they do it because it had not been done before, or because it saves them time and money and programing? I don't hnave the answer to that question being only a mortal AI playing WitP player rather than a dedicated control micro manager type player like most of you here.
I to get tired of being blasted by these type players because I play the AI. To put it in small words: I have not the time or the mental desire to play a game by email that is 1600+ turns long and requires a lot of my time just to do one turn. I do not have any idea how some of you do it. I am retired and I still could not find the time to play a game that would take longer to play than it did to fight the real war.
I see AE more as an effort to make the game larger and more complex and adding even more detail than is really necessary. It will fix some problems but these could be addressed by a couple of patch's.
No I think there is a large core of players here who desire more simulation, more detail, more time consuming sub game stuff. I think that the players on this forum that desire this type of update are the majority of the reular members of this forum but I think also that they do NOT represent the majority of players who
own this game. I say this because for me to play this game in email would require to much of my time because I have a life and other things I want to do.
If the interface of the game were to be redone and a better method of presenting the mass of information the game presents each turn it would go a long way to keep the support of the players who do not want or need the detail that is a part of and will be a part of this game. The interface is just one of several changes that can't be made because it would require a change in the game engine. Why should Matrix even consider a second version of this game when they can get an update that is being done by players and forum members rather than nmostly staff persons. I admire all who are helping with the AE project but for me when a game becomes more work and less fun I have serious doubts about playing it. WitP already is near the limit for me in time needed and mental resources needed.
Will I buy AE...perhaps depending on price....will I play it? no comment. Do I think there will ever be a WitP 2? I am 68 and my father is 96 and if I live to be his age maybe I will see a WitP 2, Or maybe just more upgrades like AE...say AE 2.

It is all top much for me so the micro manager types have won again. I do spend time thinking what AE COULD have been or if WitP 2 was being done now instead. Well good luck to you all I did not mean to step on any toes and will check back from time to time but for now its back to my real life

Madgamer


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RE: When is enough..well...enough? - 1/20/2009 3:19:41 AM   
Iridium


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I disagree, a WitP 2 would have require far more time and effort to produce since it would have needed a new engine from the ground up and a complete rebuild. I gonna go out on a limb and say the sheer manhours of labor spent on AE is small in comparison to the needs of WitP 2.

Perhaps someone who actually knows the size of the effort will elaborate.

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RE: When is enough..well...enough? - 1/20/2009 4:02:46 AM   
TOMLABEL


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I'll speak as a primarily 'vs AI' player...

Where it is true that some aspects of the game have become more detailed, it is all in the effort to provide more control over certain aspects of WITP-1 that many players complained that they didn't have control over initially, and also in an effort to make the game more realistic (while keeping it playable)than before.

In regards to the AI... in my opinion, the AI is MUCH better and more challenging than it is in WITP-1. Matrix has taken into consideration that the majority of the WITP players do play against the AI only and have put forth considerable effort into making the AI better than it was in WITP.

From the perspective of an AE team member, after playing/testing AE over many months, I find it almost impossible to go back to playing WITP-1.

Just my $.02.

TOMLABEL

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RE: When is enough..well...enough? - 1/20/2009 4:52:28 AM   
jwilkerson


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My AE PBEM play test partner and I - have played 62 turns in the past month. These are three day turns - and we would need to play about 450 turns to finish the war. But at 70 turns per month - this will only take about 8 months. So if time to finish is a key issue for a given player - then 3 day turns will get you there in under a year - even for PBEM! We play about 2 turns a day during the work week (we both have day jobs - and in addition to the AE project - I also work on two other projects) and about 3-5 turns in bursts on our mutual days off.



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RE: When is enough..well...enough? - 1/20/2009 4:59:33 AM   
bradfordkay

 

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Madgamer... please keep in mind that nobody is forcing you to buy AE or even play WITP.

TomLabel has already pointed out that the AI in AE is getting a lot of serious work, so it is not being aimed solely at the PBEMers. However, the extra detail is in response to requests made over the years by the members of this forum. Since this is the only place where such requests are likely to come to the attention of the people involved in said project, and it is an open forum where anyone familiar or unfamiliar with the product can state their piece it makes sense that this work will reflect the desires and interests of the people who post on this forum.

Take care of yourself and I hope that you'll find the time to enjoy AE...




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RE: When is enough..well...enough? - 1/20/2009 5:09:53 AM   
vettim89


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I assuming you expect people to reply to this by posting it, Sooooo....

quote:

ORIGINAL: madgamer

Perhaps the answer to this question in the minds od most here on this forum....is never. First we have WitP...then AE.....then WitP 2, etc...etc. I think that Matrix new a good thing when it allowed members of the forum and long time players take part in what was then to be ....what? a one year (at the most) expansion for an already great selling game. Did they do it because it had not been done before, or because it saves them time and money and programing? I don't hnave the answer to that question being only a mortal AI playing WitP player rather than a dedicated control micro manager type player like most of you here.
I to get tired of being blasted by these type players because I play the AI. To put it in small words: I have not the time or the mental desire to play a game by email that is 1600+ turns long and requires a lot of my time just to do one turn. I do not have any idea how some of you do it. I am retired and I still could not find the time to play a game that would take longer to play than it did to fight the real war.


I personally would never demean a player who only has the AI for an opponant. I played against the AI for nearly a year before I took on my first PBEM game. Fortunately, for me, I was able to find some one who was just as much a noob as myself as far as PBEM. I am sure the more experienced players would have ripped me to shreds. I have had a very enjoyable game and now that I have played PBEM, I could never go back to playing the AI. Its just that the unpredictability of a human opponent just offers so much more of a challenge. As to the time factor, Larry, my PBEM, opponent usually get in two turns a day (sometimes more on weekends). So even playing one day turns we would be done in just a hair over two years if we made it to the end. Playing two day turns would get us done in a little more than a year

quote:


I see AE more as an effort to make the game larger and more complex and adding even more detail than is really necessary. It will fix some problems but these could be addressed by a couple of patch's.
No I think there is a large core of players here who desire more simulation, more detail, more time consuming sub game stuff. I think that the players on this forum that desire this type of update are the majority of the reular members of this forum but I think also that they do NOT represent the majority of players who
own this game. I say this because for me to play this game in email would require to much of my time because I have a life and other things I want to do.


From my reading of the posts on AE I would say the work falls into four main areas. The first is correcting the OOB where there were some glaring omissions. The second is adjusting unit values (like a/c ranges) to be historically accurate. The third would be addressing some of the game subroutines that did not produce accurate results compared to the RL model. Lastly, is work on improving the AI. So if you enjoy the game, why would you object to improvements that would make it more historically accurate. I would assume you chose WITP because historically the PTO interested you. Have you never been frustrated when a result comes out that was so out of bounds that you were ready to rip your hair out? True some of the original WITP's warts became more apparent because a human opponent could recognize them and exploit them to his/her advantage. If you only play the AI, I would think you would be drooling at the prospect of having a vastly superior opponent.

quote:



If the interface of the game were to be redone and a better method of presenting the mass of information the game presents each turn it would go a long way to keep the support of the players who do not want or need the detail that is a part of and will be a part of this game. The interface is just one of several changes that can't be made because it would require a change in the game engine. Why should Matrix even consider a second version of this game when they can get an update that is being done by players and forum members rather than nmostly staff persons. I admire all who are helping with the AE project but for me when a game becomes more work and less fun I have serious doubts about playing it. WitP already is near the limit for me in time needed and mental resources needed.
Will I buy AE...perhaps depending on price....will I play it? no comment. Do I think there will ever be a WitP 2? I am 68 and my father is 96 and if I live to be his age maybe I will see a WitP 2, Or maybe just more upgrades like AE...say AE 2.


The ecomnomics of strategic wargame design and development are not what they once were. The bulk of young people are interested in First Person Shooter type games these days. Also many people are now playing MMORPG's these days. The traditional board/minaitures typ wargame market is almost gone now. Most of those companies only publish their games when a certain number of pre-orders are fulfilled. While WITP is very popular for a strategic simulation type game, the potential for sales is miniscule compared to the number of people playing say World of Warcraft, or Call of Duty, or playing on wargames on video game consoles. If AE sells 5000 copies, Matrix will gross $250,000 which probably not cover the cost of a decent team of software engineers to develop it. In other word, AE probably wouldn't exist at all if not for the AE team.

quote:


It is all top much for me so the micro manager types have won again. I do spend time thinking what AE COULD have been or if WitP 2 was being done now instead. Well good luck to you all I did not mean to step on any toes and will check back from time to time but for now its back to my real life

Madgamer


WITP is a game of micromanaging in its present form. While there is certainly some areas of increased complexity in AE, I believe it probably will not affect your ability to play the game that much. I say that having never seen the product. That said, a lot of the changes to AE are behind the scenes, i.e., the game will seem very similar but the engine running it will be vastly improved in terms of say air-to-air combat, ASW, etc.

Still I can see your point in that a lot of the improvements are geared more towards PBEM. That is because you have probably never seen the AI fly over 500 sorties a day in China with fighters on ground attack to build up their experience, or hundreds of IJAAF bombers on ASW patrol killing all your subs, etc., etc. The only thing I can say is that there is no law saying you have to buy AE to be a WITP Fan Boy.

Lastly, I would say you should try PBEM. From your post, I get the feeling you already spend a lot of time on your turns already. PBEM does not add to the actual playing time. The only difference is you don't get the instant gratification of being able to run your turn as soon as it is completed. If you only want to run a few turns a week, I bet you can find another player who would like a casual game.

Now its past midnight and there is no chance of Larry sending me another turn today. Guess I'll just have to go to sleep with visions of Essex class CV's in my head


< Message edited by vettim89 -- 1/20/2009 5:13:30 AM >


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RE: When is enough..well...enough? - 1/20/2009 6:16:11 AM   
Yamato hugger

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: TOMLABEL

From the perspective of an AE team member, after playing/testing AE over many months, I find it almost impossible to go back to playing WITP-1.



And I am at the far opposite end of this spectrum. I see no use for an AI except as a training aid. I find it very hard to stay focused on AE because I am NOT playing a player, in fact I just recently started a new game of WitP within the past few weeks. A lot of really good ideas arent even being considered because the AI cant handle it.

One persons rose is another persons thorn.

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RE: When is enough..well...enough? - 1/20/2009 12:21:09 PM   
m10bob


Posts: 8622
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From: Dismal Seepage Indiana
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quote:

ORIGINAL: madgamer

Perhaps the answer to this question in the minds od most here on this forum....is never. First we have WitP...then AE.....then WitP 2, etc...etc. I think that Matrix new a good thing when it allowed members of the forum and long time players take part in what was then to be ....what? a one year (at the most) expansion for an already great selling game. Did they do it because it had not been done before, or because it saves them time and money and programing? I don't hnave the answer to that question being only a mortal AI playing WitP player rather than a dedicated control micro manager type player like most of you here.
I to get tired of being blasted by these type players because I play the AI. To put it in small words: I have not the time or the mental desire to play a game by email that is 1600+ turns long and requires a lot of my time just to do one turn. I do not have any idea how some of you do it. I am retired and I still could not find the time to play a game that would take longer to play than it did to fight the real war.
I see AE more as an effort to make the game larger and more complex and adding even more detail than is really necessary. It will fix some problems but these could be addressed by a couple of patch's.
No I think there is a large core of players here who desire more simulation, more detail, more time consuming sub game stuff. I think that the players on this forum that desire this type of update are the majority of the reular members of this forum but I think also that they do NOT represent the majority of players who
own this game. I say this because for me to play this game in email would require to much of my time because I have a life and other things I want to do.
If the interface of the game were to be redone and a better method of presenting the mass of information the game presents each turn it would go a long way to keep the support of the players who do not want or need the detail that is a part of and will be a part of this game. The interface is just one of several changes that can't be made because it would require a change in the game engine. Why should Matrix even consider a second version of this game when they can get an update that is being done by players and forum members rather than nmostly staff persons. I admire all who are helping with the AE project but for me when a game becomes more work and less fun I have serious doubts about playing it. WitP already is near the limit for me in time needed and mental resources needed.
Will I buy AE...perhaps depending on price....will I play it? no comment. Do I think there will ever be a WitP 2? I am 68 and my father is 96 and if I live to be his age maybe I will see a WitP 2, Or maybe just more upgrades like AE...say AE 2.

It is all top much for me so the micro manager types have won again. I do spend time thinking what AE COULD have been or if WitP 2 was being done now instead. Well good luck to you all I did not mean to step on any toes and will check back from time to time but for now its back to my real life

Madgamer






Madgamer, you make some valid points, as usual,, but there are other considerations and priorities for other players.
I might one day play a PBEM game, but currently I still have a very full time job which dis-allows any but AI play.
I would not wish to discriminate against my fellow players/forum members by asking AE be rushed just to satisfy MY desires, at the expense of others.
I too am in my sixties, and I can wait.
Plenty of time.

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RE: When is enough..well...enough? - 1/20/2009 1:10:48 PM   
vettim89


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quote:

ORIGINLE M10bob

Madgamer, you make some valid points, as usual,, but there are other considerations and priorities for other players.
I might one day play a PBEM game, but currently I still have a very full time job which dis-allows any but AI play.
I would not wish to discriminate against my fellow players/forum members by asking AE be rushed just to satisfy MY desires, at the expense of others.
I too am in my sixties, and I can wait.
Plenty of time.


I have it! M10bob against Madgamer in a PBEM battle royal. You two are a marriage made in Heaven

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RE: When is enough..well...enough? - 1/20/2009 2:54:08 PM   
Charbroiled


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Madgamer,

I understand what you are saying, but I don't understand the reasoning.

You seem to be more concerned about more micromanagement from AE. Fine, if more micromanagement isn't your thing, you still have WITP. From my understanding, it is not being abandoned. In fact, there has been mentioned of a patch that will come out when AE comes out.

You say you only play against the AI and are upset with the PBEM focus from this forum. Well, the boys working on AE have spent a lot of time working on the AI. There would be no reason to do that if AE was PBEM focused. It is my understanding that there was no way to really make the AI better in WITP without a major rewrite.....hence AE.

If/when WITP2 comes out, I'm sure that there will be even more micromanagement. However, IMHO, WITP2 will not be a success unless it is set up so that we can micromanage faster and more effeciently.

I person should expect high micromanagement for a game of this nature. Without it, you would have an Axis and Allies type of game.

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RE: When is enough..well...enough? - 1/20/2009 4:27:24 PM   
witpqs


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To be fair, I should to all this that several of the announced features will greatly reduce micromanagement. For example, convoy routing, continuous supply convoys, submarine patrols. These things are a pain in the butt right now, promise to be greatly improved in AE.

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RE: When is enough..well...enough? - 1/20/2009 4:30:13 PM   
TR Shrum

 

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I may be wrong here, but I think that what madgamer is getting at is:

Frustration.

Regardless of "Player vs AI" or "PBEM", I share that feeling to some degree.  We all understand and appreciate all of the devotion, hard work, and dedication that everyone at Matrix is putting into the Project.  Been there, done that.

When will the game be released?  Frustration Level Increase.

We all check at least once a day for progress.  Progress appears to be being made.  Things are happening.  Discussions are taking place.  AARs are being posted.

When will the game be released?  Frustration Level Increase.

Everyone wants the Product to be as complete and as error-free as possible.  Been there, done that.  Everyone wants after-release patches to be more in the "add-ons" category and less in the "fixes" category.  Been there, done that.

When will the game be released?  Frustration Level Increase.

AE was announced in Dec '07; it's Jan '09.  Now there is mention of WITP 2 and that AE patches are really more about Mods than they are about fixes.

When will the game be released?  Frustration Level Increase.

We all have real lives to attend to.  Playing WITP or AE or any other game is simply a form of entertainment that helps us get along in our real lives.  However, when that help (or drug or support) is wanting, we tend to get a little cranky.  And that is what I'm starting to see with many of the posts regarding AE.  I believe that may be what madgamer is getting at.

I freely admit that I too am getting frustrated and cranky with the process.  Been there, done that.

Let us not forget that the Matrix folks are no doubt getting just as cranky and frustrated.  We all want AE released.  As error-free as possible.  As complete as possible.  As soon as possible.  And let's be honest about it; Now.

When will the game be released?  Frustration Level Increase.

Right, wrong, or otherwise, I believe more than one person feels the "Frustration Level Increase."

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RE: When is enough..well...enough? - 1/20/2009 5:29:12 PM   
Yank


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At this point I am just checking on status - although I am doing that frequently. The level of detail from the questions being asked on this board is great, the knowledge on display is amazing, the research material fascinating, etc. but it actually becomes a little mind numbing at times.

I'm actually at the point where I have too much information and will stop reading the boards for a while. Just want to fire the thing up (someday) and play. I'm not sure I want to know every little detail of what makes the engine and the data in the game tick, but to each his own. After months of reading this board, I'm confident this thing is very deep under the hood and the design is well thought out.

To the project team: you guys have been fantastic and patient in answering questions. Thank you.

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RE: When is enough..well...enough? - 1/20/2009 5:47:19 PM   
Yamato hugger

 

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Asking when is it going to be released serves no one any good. Frankly, WE dont know. And when our part is done, Matrix gets to do their thing. New bugs crop up every day. Tweeks need to be made. 1 test run this is too powerful, the next its impotent.

AI - not going to say more about this.

Its sometimes like being on a 20 mile force march. Other times its like a log ride. As for WitP - 2. No such thing. When people talk about it, they arent serious. Its like when you look at something in the electronics store and say out loud: "when I get a million dollars, I will buy that". Thats what WitP-2 is, your electronic toy for when you get one million dollars. So dont fret about WitP-2.

AE isnt really a mod, and it isnt really a patch. In some circumstances its like a super CHS, but far more accurate. AE uses the same basic engine WitP does, so in a lot of ways it will look similar and it would be easy to mistake this for it being a mod. WitP is required to be installed on your machine because thats what Matrix wants. The dev team has no say in that and frankly I dont see a problem with that. But that doesnt mean it is a mod of WitP - it isnt. It is a stand alone game.

As badly as the forumites want this thing done, I assure you WE want it done more than you do. Trust me on that.

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RE: When is enough..well...enough? - 1/20/2009 6:57:43 PM   
Barb


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I think it is possible to say AE is something like "Datadisc" to the game. Am I right?


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RE: When is enough..well...enough? - 1/20/2009 8:43:58 PM   
Yamato hugger

 

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No. All of the combat routines were re-written. Hex size has been changed. More classes added. New naval missions. Ship repair is totally new. Unit withdrawls. Production is rewritten. Docking limits bases on ship and TF size is new. Map is new. Off map areas added. Hexside control is new. Air mission training is re-written.

Changing the database was the easy part. And that isnt even 100% complete yet.

< Message edited by Yamato hugger -- 1/20/2009 8:44:08 PM >


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RE: When is enough..well...enough? - 1/20/2009 10:52:28 PM   
stuman


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Well, as one who is still having trouble against WiTP's AI , at this point I am probably not ready for AE anyway

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RE: When is enough..well...enough? - 1/20/2009 11:03:51 PM   
Barb


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YH: I know what is AE about - I am reading the forum daily... I am just trying to make it more obvious to those not familiar...

< Message edited by Barb -- 1/20/2009 11:06:56 PM >


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RE: When is enough..well...enough? - 1/21/2009 4:04:00 AM   
jwilkerson


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Barb

I think it is possible to say AE is something like "Datadisc" to the game. Am I right?



A data disk, an art disk and a code disk, all three in one disk!!!


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RE: When is enough..well...enough? - 1/21/2009 7:53:25 AM   
Terminus


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So in other words, "no"...

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RE: When is enough..well...enough? - 1/21/2009 3:54:30 PM   
witpqs


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quote:

ORIGINAL: jwilkerson


quote:

ORIGINAL: Barb

I think it is possible to say AE is something like "Datadisc" to the game. Am I right?



A data disk, an art disk and a code disk, all three in one disk!!!



Ah, it's a discus throw!

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Post #: 21
RE: When is enough..well...enough? - 1/21/2009 7:38:57 PM   
Yamato hugger

 

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Wouldnt that be tricus?

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RE: When is enough..well...enough? - 1/21/2009 8:07:33 PM   
Kwik E Mart


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Yamato hugger

AE isnt really a mod, and it isnt really a patch. In some circumstances its like a super CHS, but far more accurate. AE uses the same basic engine WitP does, so in a lot of ways it will look similar and it would be easy to mistake this for it being a mod. WitP is required to be installed on your machine because thats what Matrix wants. The dev team has no say in that and frankly I dont see a problem with that. But that doesnt mean it is a mod of WitP - it isnt. It is a stand alone game.



(bold and italics mine)

I'm failing to see the logic. If AE is a "stand alone game", then why does Matrix insist that WiTP be a prerequisite? I know, I know - because they can.

I'm thinking of designing a game based on chess. The number of squares are doubled, there are new pieces introduced and the hierarchy of which pieces can defeat opposing pieces has changed. But you need the original first.

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(in reply to Yamato hugger)
Post #: 23
RE: When is enough..well...enough? - 1/21/2009 10:47:32 PM   
witpqs


Posts: 25818
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From: Argleton
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Yamato hugger

Wouldnt that be tricus?


It's enough to give a guy tricusdiscusphobia.

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Post #: 24
RE: When is enough..well...enough? - 1/21/2009 10:57:27 PM   
Halsey

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kwik E Mart


quote:

ORIGINAL: Yamato hugger

AE isnt really a mod, and it isnt really a patch. In some circumstances its like a super CHS, but far more accurate. AE uses the same basic engine WitP does, so in a lot of ways it will look similar and it would be easy to mistake this for it being a mod. WitP is required to be installed on your machine because thats what Matrix wants. The dev team has no say in that and frankly I dont see a problem with that. But that doesnt mean it is a mod of WitP - it isnt. It is a stand alone game.



(bold and italics mine)

I'm failing to see the logic. If AE is a "stand alone game", then why does Matrix insist that WiTP be a prerequisite? I know, I know - because they can.

I'm thinking of designing a game based on chess. The number of squares are doubled, there are new pieces introduced and the hierarchy of which pieces can defeat opposing pieces has changed. But you need the original first.


WITP is the demo you must purchase to play AE.

Honestly, if you can handle WITP, AE isn't all that hard to adjust to.


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Post #: 25
RE: When is enough..well...enough? - 1/22/2009 12:40:25 AM   
janh

 

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I must admit this seems to be a very subjective discussion in this thread.
Anyway, I agree and disagree with madgamer at the same time. Indeed, more micromanaging is likely tedious, but it appears that the new feature will improve realism -- that's pretty much all I care about in first order approximation. But that's now where I have to agree with madgamer:

I have been eyeing with WITP(1) for a while, but always was held back by the "lacking" AI. I have too little time for playing PBEM in a reliable fashion, and further more long-time experience with other online games have convinced me that "playing" and "simulating realistically" are two different things. It just requires players with a good knowledge of history and the will to behave within that frame rather than making (mis-)use of glitches/simplifications etc. It's hard to understand what I mean, I guess. Let's say most people that are "just playing" would taking more risks and care less about losses than someone "taking it more serious". Actually the degree of detail and micromanaging seem to limit that a bit -- it is much more evident in other "games" (like American civil war battles, where you could apply modern day tactics of continuous pressure and attack depth, but that would be far from the historic military dogmas of that time, where troops stayed idle for major parts of battles -- just an unsatisfying experience in the end).

Therefore the main thing I am hoping for is a much better AI in AE. I'll keep watching the forum and hope for some encouraging AAR against AI once AE is out, which would surely "force" me to buy it...

Anyway, no doubt an impressive undertaking that you guys started with WITP and AE!


(in reply to madgamer2)
Post #: 26
RE: When is enough..well...enough? - 1/22/2009 1:59:55 AM   
2ndACR


Posts: 5665
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From: Irving,Tx
Status: offline
I am willing to bet/hope that AE is priced below WITP so it will be just like all the other expansions of other games. Original cost 49.99 and expansion 29.99. (prices are for non-WITP games) because we all know WITP is much more than that and worth every penny.

Hopefully AE will be 49.99 or less. But will buy regardless.

(in reply to janh)
Post #: 27
RE: When is enough..well...enough? - 1/22/2009 10:43:01 AM   
Terminus


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From: Denmark
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Iridium

I disagree, a WitP 2 would have require far more time and effort to produce since it would have needed a new engine from the ground up and a complete rebuild. I gonna go out on a limb and say the sheer manhours of labor spent on AE is small in comparison to the needs of WitP 2.

Perhaps someone who actually knows the size of the effort will elaborate.


Nobody has any idea of what the needs of WitP 2 are, because WitP 2 only exists in the fevered imaginings of some individuals on this forum.

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Post #: 28
RE: When is enough..well...enough? - 1/22/2009 1:12:16 PM   
foliveti


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From: Buffalo, NY
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That is also what you have been saying about AE.

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Post #: 29
RE: When is enough..well...enough? - 1/22/2009 3:21:41 PM   
witpqs


Posts: 25818
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From: Argleton
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That's "feverish" imaginings!

(in reply to foliveti)
Post #: 30
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