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Advanced tactics and War in russia - 1/17/2009 1:38:56 PM   
henri51


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Anyone else notice the similarities between AT and the old War in Russia? WIR's use of "containers" was a great idea, and is also used in AT.

For those too young to remember, WIR was probably the longest-lasting computer wargame of all time.

AT is a classic. The supply system can minimize micro-management if it is used properly. One thing I would like to see is automatic replacements. Most of my playtime is dedicated to sending replacements to units, and for a large game, this can take quite a bit of time.

Like many here, I bought the game after reading some AARs.

AT DOES have the worst manual I have ever seen. After seeing the tutorial for Battle in Italy, the AT manual is... incomplete, to say the least. Fortunately there are a few good tutorials on the forums.

< Message edited by henri51 -- 1/17/2009 1:43:22 PM >
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RE: Advanced tactics and War in russia - 1/17/2009 1:52:35 PM   
explorer2

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: henri51
One thing I would like to see is automatic replacements. Most of my playtime is dedicated to sending replacements to units, and for a large game, this can take quite a bit of time.


A big YES to that. I also spend most of my time, quite a bit, at replacements. I wouldn't want to eliminate the ability to do it manually, but to ADD a way to set priorities of production, timing of moving into a unit would be outstanding. It would save a ton of time and add to my enjoyment immensely.
This was an issue in Civilization, a game I played a lot before AT. When they added many options for how to set priorities for various types of production, it was truly a godsend.

(in reply to henri51)
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RE: Advanced tactics and War in russia - 1/17/2009 4:49:55 PM   
Jeffrey H.


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Yes, I noticed it is very much like WIR in several ways. I don't sped too much time on reenforcements but I do spend a lot of CLICKS on them. Creation and reenforcement of units seems to take a lot of mouseclicks.

WIR needs an update badly. I hear one is is thei works.

AT actually stands above WIR because of the editor and the random games IMHO.


_____________________________

History began July 4th, 1776. Anything before that was a mistake.

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RE: Advanced tactics and War in russia - 1/17/2009 5:40:26 PM   
Vic


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WIR was one of the first wargames i played and defenitely a continueing and lasting inspiration.

kind reg,
Vic

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RE: Advanced tactics and War in russia - 1/18/2009 11:55:16 AM   
seille

 

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Same here Vic after Steel Panthers and Panzergeneral

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RE: Advanced tactics and War in russia - 1/18/2009 1:31:05 PM   
Vic


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Hi seille,
I am realy looking forward to the "remake" by Grigsby :)
When it finally gets out i'd really like to challenge you for a monster PBEM on that game! :)

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RE: Advanced tactics and War in russia - 1/18/2009 1:46:12 PM   
seille

 

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A new War in Russia i would like to play myself.
What is the name of this new game ? Didn´t find any info here.

When my big AAR is finished i can finally start again 1-2 games AT which i didn´t
play for month´s now. Found some interesting new scenarios worth to try out.


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RE: Advanced tactics and War in russia - 1/18/2009 2:50:25 PM   
Vic


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http://www.2by3games.com/ussr.htm

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RE: Advanced tactics and War in russia - 1/18/2009 3:20:18 PM   
seille

 

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Not many details, but it might be interesting indeed.
But any new games have a problem. AT is not only on my harddrive, it´s also in my head since 3 years.
Hard to manoeuvre around for a new game
Mr. Grigsby has to come with a really phantastic game which is a match for AT. Hard enough, but i hope
he can.

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RE: Advanced tactics and War in russia - 1/18/2009 3:25:23 PM   
henri51


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Vic

http://www.2by3games.com/ussr.htm


Looks interesting, Vic. I think AT is already a pretty good improvement on WIR. I am looking forward to seeing this new game when it is ready.

Henri

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RE: Advanced tactics and War in russia - 1/18/2009 8:42:12 PM   
Tagwyn

 

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I have games coming out my ears LOL! Why on earth another improved game on the East Front? Just make ATWWII better? L3

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RE: Advanced tactics and War in russia - 1/19/2009 5:02:25 PM   
welk

 

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Concerning "old gaming" : for those who want to do the comparison between the "Third Reich" scenario for ADVANCED TACTICS (awailable in Advanced tactics bank scenarios) and the original Third Reich PC Wargame, see here :
http://www.specialistsilencers.com/3r.htm
(this old game is downlodable with entire documentation)
Or here :
http://www.ww2-area.info/third-reich-computer-game/
Or here :
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Corner/7583/
or here :
http://www.geocities.com/Pentagon/Quarters/9017/index.html

_____________________________


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RE: Advanced tactics and War in russia - 1/20/2009 9:27:26 AM   
Zaratoughda


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Hmmmm... Vic.... you gotta BEAT Grigsby! (lol)

The big thing is games like this is the movement/combat system..... plotted movement like in WIR, loss of movement points like in TOAW, or free movement like in AT.

As I understand it.... what they are doing in the new WIR, is the more movement points you use the more your attack ability goes down.

This is interesting! Guess time will tell if it cuts the mustard as far as being historical as well as easy to use like in free movement systems.

IMO, keeping track of when combat took place in each given hex and charging units the appropriate amount when moving into or attacking into that hex, would be the ultimate way to go but, I have not seen anyone do this yet.

Whatever.... will be a while before the WIR replacement comes out and then we will see. Probably be a monster seller like War in the Pacific.

Z

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RE: Advanced tactics and War in russia - 1/20/2009 9:38:23 AM   
seille

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Zaratoughda
As I understand it.... what they are doing in the new WIR, is the more movement points you use the more your attack ability goes down.


As in AT. Less AP due to movement, less rounds of attack left.

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RE: Advanced tactics and War in russia - 1/20/2009 7:23:15 PM   
Zaratoughda


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quote:

ORIGINAL: seille


quote:

ORIGINAL: Zaratoughda
As I understand it.... what they are doing in the new WIR, is the more movement points you use the more your attack ability goes down.


As in AT. Less AP due to movement, less rounds of attack left.



Do you know this for a fact?? The playtesters in their postings seemed to indicate that the combat values of their units were reduced if they moved too much.

Z

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RE: Advanced tactics and War in russia - 1/20/2009 9:15:04 PM   
seille

 

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@Z

I talked about AT. In Advanced Tactics anything is based on AP (Action points)
You use them for movement and for attacks.
If you spent already 50 AP for movement (based at 100 the unit had before)
you´ll have only 50 left for combat (5 rounds)

Easiest example.

A fighter unit with 100AP.
Move it 10 hexes -> 50AP left

This means you have a range of 5 hexes for attacks.
When you attack you´ll have 5 rounds of combat (because you have only 50AP)


PS. Sorry for beeing off topic

(in reply to Zaratoughda)
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RE: Advanced tactics and War in russia - 1/21/2009 8:12:39 PM   
Zaratoughda


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quote:

ORIGINAL: seille

@Z

I talked about AT. In Advanced Tactics anything is based on AP (Action points)
You use them for movement and for attacks.
If you spent already 50 AP for movement (based at 100 the unit had before)
you´ll have only 50 left for combat (5 rounds)

Easiest example.

A fighter unit with 100AP.
Move it 10 hexes -> 50AP left

This means you have a range of 5 hexes for attacks.
When you attack you´ll have 5 rounds of combat (because you have only 50AP)


PS. Sorry for beeing off topic


Well.... in that case.... does NOT look like the new WiR is using the same free movement system as AT uses.

The playtester mentioned in the thread here on Matrix that the combat ability of units goes down the more movement points they use.... and he lost a panzer division in playtest due to this. This is different than in AT (and in TOAW also) where if you don't have enough AP left..... your attack just runs out of gas.... as opposed to getting wiped out.

So, this is the way it looks from what the playtester said but I am not a playtester myself so I really don't know exactly what their system is.

Plotted movement (as in WiR) and the like tend to be more historically accurate while free movement (like in AT) tend to be more user friendly (but less historically accurate). Age of Rifles had a free movement system and I enjoyed a bunch of Seven Weeks War and Spanish American War scenarios that I had never played before.... but when I came to AoR Gettysburg.... the historicity of the game paled in comparison to other Gettysburg games I had.... because of free movement system and the inaccuracies it brought in.

TOAW has a free movement system.... but when you have the computer resolve attacks, it adjusts the movement points available on every one of your units on the map to be up to speed as to when the last resolved combat ended. This makes for a more historically accurate game than one with free movement (like AT) BUT!!!.... you end up having to micromanage all your attacks across the map and that gets to be a pain. Not so bad at times but other times..... again, gets to be a pain.

So, there are various ways of handling this like in WiR, TOAW, AT, and the new WiR. IMO the best way to handle it is to charge extra MPs to move or attack into hexes that were part of a previous combat... based on when that combat took place.... but as I mentioned before I haven't seen anyone do this yet.

Only time will tell if the new WiR system works as you would want.

Z


< Message edited by Zaratoughda -- 1/21/2009 8:13:03 PM >

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RE: Advanced tactics and War in russia - 1/22/2009 12:14:41 PM   
Vic


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Zaratoughda
IMO the best way to handle it is to charge extra MPs to move or attack into hexes that were part of a previous combat... based on when that combat took place.... but as I mentioned before I haven't seen anyone do this yet.


good idea!

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RE: Advanced tactics and War in russia - 1/23/2009 7:29:46 PM   
Zaratoughda


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Vic.... thanks for the positive response! I appreciate it!

Of course <g>, considering such a system would beg the question as to if units pay a greater AP cost to attack or move into hexes that were part of a combat that was resolved..... would it be to get them up to that level of AP expenditure at the point that they started their current movement.... or at the point they moved into the hex... and IMO it should be the former (yeah, this point is kinda confusing I'm afraid).

IMO a game should motivate a player to do their strategic movement and stuff FIRST, then go to the tactical situations and the first scheme would motivate players to do this. In other words, if you want a unit that is not part of a combat to exploit an area after the combat is resolved, you should move that unit as close as possible to that combat before it is resolved.

The other thing.... and TOAW in fact does a good job on this one... unit cooperation. It's just a point of fact that units under different HQs in general all had their own objectives and did not cooperate in attacks. AGC had it's objectives, and AGN had it's.... and they handled them separately.

In TOAW, this is handled by unit color coding..... allowing some units to cooperate fully, some just giving limited cooperation, while others cannot cooperate at all. But, something like this can be handled easily at the HQ level (e.g. units under the same 1st line HQ can all coorperate fully, units under different 1st line but the same 2nd line HQ can cooperate on a limited level, while units under different 2nd line HQs cannnot cooperate at all) assuming you have a chain of command which AT has and TOAW... does not have.

Hmmmm.... I guess I am hoping you are working on a game that will ultimately replace TOAW. I like TOAW a lot but I do not see the problems that it does have ever getting fixed.

But, whatever.

Again, thanks for the positive response!

Z

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RE: Advanced tactics and War in russia - 1/23/2009 8:04:21 PM   
Grymme

 

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There is an element of this already in AT. For example. Transfers from 1 HQ to another means severe loss of readiness. Also if you attack from different directions with units from different HQs you get a reduction in the tactical bonus. There is probably others i dont know about.

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RE: Advanced tactics and War in russia - 1/23/2009 8:12:19 PM   
Jeffrey H.


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Zaratoughda


IMO a game should motivate a player to do their strategic movement and stuff FIRST, then go to the tactical situations and the first scheme would motivate players to do this. In other words, if you want a unit that is not part of a combat to exploit an area after the combat is resolved, you should move that unit as close as possible to that combat before it is resolved.



Not trying to pick a fight but I have to disagree. IMHO AT as it is today is very interesting because all forms of AP expenditure can be interwoven with each other and as a result, your strategy for the turn can be optimized in different situational ways. This is one aspect of keeping the game engaging and avoiding pattern behaviours.

It's a subtle point but the more I think of it, the more convinced I am that having the ability to mix and match all modes of AP expenditure is one of the things that I really like about AT and also one of the things that really keeps my interest level up.



_____________________________

History began July 4th, 1776. Anything before that was a mistake.

Ron Swanson

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RE: Advanced tactics and War in russia - 1/24/2009 1:16:12 AM   
Zaratoughda


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I wasn't talking about AT but a game with more historicity using the AT engine.

Z

(in reply to Jeffrey H.)
Post #: 22
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