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This is beyond words - End of game punt. - 1/15/2009 10:18:51 PM   
DAWUSS

 

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What ruined almost an otherwise great game.


Now, seriously, how many head coaches would do a thing like that?

(And then there was that annoying feature of auto-fill, but that's another story)




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< Message edited by Marauders -- 1/16/2009 9:17:11 PM >
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RE: This is beyond words - 1/16/2009 1:08:01 AM   
mbsports

 

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Looks like Baltimore didn't really want this one eh?

I think this is why you've got all the hard feelings around here - because overall what it's playing ain't football.



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RE: This is beyond words - 1/16/2009 1:41:59 AM   
DreamTeams


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Dawuss are you using the default playbooks? I use Hacks playbooks and he has things like this covered in his situation profiles, so that coaches will go for it. Situation profiles can also be added to the default playbooks. Not sure if that's your cup of tea, though.

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RE: This is beyond words - 1/16/2009 1:56:21 AM   
DAWUSS

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: DreamTeams

Dawuss are you using the default playbooks? I use Hacks playbooks and he has things like this covered in his situation profiles, so that coaches will go for it. Situation profiles can also be added to the default playbooks. Not sure if that's your cup of tea, though.


Is that what the problem is? I thought the AI by default knew when to take its chances, and uh do this. Even worse was Baltimore's 3 handoffs and 3 timeouts (and a false start in there as well). Outside of that bit at the end the playcalling from the AI was great.

And what I was using was a "Copy-and-Paste" thing using various playbooks I've downloaded (including Hack's), in an attempt to create teams that run a specific style of play (and the more advanced the league the bigger I have the playbook)

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RE: This is beyond words - 1/16/2009 4:51:48 AM   
hack153

 

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"Copy-and-Paste" playbooks will not contain the groups/situations that you are looking for.  you will need to create/adjust them yourself.  my playbooks contain template that you can add plays to, but you'll still need to add plays to the already made situations.

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RE: This is beyond words - 1/16/2009 6:33:37 AM   
DreamTeams


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DAWUSS


quote:

ORIGINAL: DreamTeams

Dawuss are you using the default playbooks? I use Hacks playbooks and he has things like this covered in his situation profiles, so that coaches will go for it. Situation profiles can also be added to the default playbooks. Not sure if that's your cup of tea, though.


Is that what the problem is? I thought the AI by default knew when to take its chances, and uh do this. Even worse was Baltimore's 3 handoffs and 3 timeouts (and a false start in there as well). Outside of that bit at the end the playcalling from the AI was great.

And what I was using was a "Copy-and-Paste" thing using various playbooks I've downloaded (including Hack's), in an attempt to create teams that run a specific style of play (and the more advanced the league the bigger I have the playbook)


Ah. Ok. I see. Yes, the default playbooks are horrid as far as realizing late game situations. Unfortunately the game does not play well in situations like these out of the box. You have to add the situations yourself. Hack's advice is good.


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RE: This is beyond words - 1/16/2009 11:58:58 AM   
bbmike

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: hack153

"Copy-and-Paste" playbooks will not contain the groups/situations that you are looking for.  you will need to create/adjust them yourself.  my playbooks contain template that you can add plays to, but you'll still need to add plays to the already made situations.


So wait....Hack, are you saying your playbooks shouldn't be used as is? I've never added or changed anything in them. Also, with your playbooks, will the AI go for it in situations like the one above?

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RE: This is beyond words - 1/16/2009 12:58:06 PM   
hack153

 

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use my playbooks as is.  they are set to work for the above situation (although the CPU doesn't always do what it is supposed to).

i have also added empty templates (which include situations/groups) so you can create your own playbook without the horror of creating the situations/groups yourself.  they are easily named with a "template."  in the empty template you have to add plays to the situations/groups.  i just tried to cut down your work a little.

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RE: This is beyond words - 1/16/2009 3:58:22 PM   
bbmike

 

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Great! I love your playbooks and I've never attempted to create my own. Thanks for creating them!

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RE: This is beyond words - 1/16/2009 4:43:16 PM   
DAWUSS

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: hack153

"Copy-and-Paste" playbooks will not contain the groups/situations that you are looking for. you will need to create/adjust them yourself. my playbooks contain template that you can add plays to, but you'll still need to add plays to the already made situations.


And now I can create gameplans for a bunch of teams...


quote:

ORIGINAL: DreamTeams


quote:

ORIGINAL: DAWUSS


quote:

ORIGINAL: DreamTeams

Dawuss are you using the default playbooks? I use Hacks playbooks and he has things like this covered in his situation profiles, so that coaches will go for it. Situation profiles can also be added to the default playbooks. Not sure if that's your cup of tea, though.


Is that what the problem is? I thought the AI by default knew when to take its chances, and uh do this. Even worse was Baltimore's 3 handoffs and 3 timeouts (and a false start in there as well). Outside of that bit at the end the playcalling from the AI was great.

And what I was using was a "Copy-and-Paste" thing using various playbooks I've downloaded (including Hack's), in an attempt to create teams that run a specific style of play (and the more advanced the league the bigger I have the playbook)


Ah. Ok. I see. Yes, the default playbooks are horrid as far as realizing late game situations. Unfortunately the game does not play well in situations like these out of the box. You have to add the situations yourself. Hack's advice is good.



Too bad something like that isn't set out of the box - every other game's AI handles such situations by default (yeah, you can't tamper around with gameplans and such in other games, but I thought I'd insert that observation anyway).

As for the whole playbook thing, what I do is take elements of one playbook and couple them with another. For example, I might have a college team use a combination of Hack's Coach Goode and Coach Smith. A high school team might have Coach Miller's offense and Coach Wilson's defense. It gives some additional variety to teams, and customizations to/for a specific system of play.

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RE: This is beyond words - 1/16/2009 4:56:18 PM   
Tullius

 

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quote:

Too bad something like that isn't set out of the box - every other game's AI handles such situations by default


But no other game has such a complex play editor and that is the price you have to pay. More options means more complexity.

But i agree a master playbook should have done as part of the official release and here the beta team has to take some blame (and this includes me). A year ago nmleague was active and made such playbooks after he departed some tested other things (really), lurked or prefered to write long posts what all have could be done.

On the other side when i see that Hacks templates have been available since weeks and nobody notice it ...

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RE: This is beyond words - 1/16/2009 9:13:19 PM   
Marauders

 

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quote:

But no other game has such a complex play editor and that is the price you have to pay. More options means more complexity.


I agree. The PDS is a powerful tool. There are a few faults, but it does a lot more than most play editors for football games.

quote:

But i agree a master playbook should have done as part of the official release and here the beta team has to take some blame (and this includes me). A year ago nmleague was active and made such playbooks after he departed some tested other things (really), lurked or prefered to write long posts what all have could be done.


I agree that there should have been better playbooks all along, and I have advocated for much more to be done in that area, but I disagree that it is the fault of the beta team.

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RE: Beyond Words - Last Minute Punt - 1/16/2009 9:20:52 PM   
Marauders

 

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quote:

Now, seriously, how many head coaches would do a thing like that?


Minnesota Vikings head coach Brad Childress did just such a thing this season.  He punted the ball away when there was no way the Vikings would get the ball back.  I guess he forgot that the clock would still run on the opposing team's fourth down, which meant the other team would not have to punt it back.

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RE: This is beyond words - 1/16/2009 11:54:54 PM   
DAWUSS

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Tullius

quote:

Too bad something like that isn't set out of the box - every other game's AI handles such situations by default


But no other game has such a complex play editor and that is the price you have to pay. More options means more complexity.

But i agree a master playbook should have done as part of the official release and here the beta team has to take some blame (and this includes me). A year ago nmleague was active and made such playbooks after he departed some tested other things (really), lurked or prefered to write long posts what all have could be done.

On the other side when i see that Hacks templates have been available since weeks and nobody notice it ...



The thing is, in certain situations, the AI - this would probably apply to "Global AI" instead of "Team Profile AI" - should know that this is a time when you throw the ball and not run the ball. Global AI should dictate that (decision making in universal scenarios), while Team Profile AI should dictate how it's going to be accomplished (playcalling and team-related tendencies).

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RE: This is beyond words - 1/17/2009 12:31:44 AM   
Marauders

 

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quote:

The thing is, in certain situations, the AI - this would probably apply to "Global AI" instead of "Team Profile AI" - should know that this is a time when you throw the ball and not run the ball. Global AI should dictate that (decision making in universal scenarios), while Team Profile AI should dictate how it's going to be accomplished (playcalling and team-related tendencies).


The game AI can only do so much. 

My problem has more to do with the team profile not being able to call special teams plays, so one has to let the game AI cover it at the end.

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RE: This is beyond words - 1/17/2009 2:16:46 AM   
hack153

 

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quote:

As for the whole playbook thing, what I do is take elements of one playbook and couple them with another. For example, I might have a college team use a combination of Hack's Coach Goode and Coach Smith. A high school team might have Coach Miller's offense and Coach Wilson's defense. It gives some additional variety to teams, and customizations to/for a specific system of play.


soon i will be adding play names under OFF/DEF/ST Coordinators (Wilson & Moyer will have DEF & ST Coord).  then I will name the playbook after the head coach.  this way you can move OFF/DEF/ST plays around and it appears/seems more realistic. 

quote:

On the other side when i see that Hacks templates have been available since weeks and nobody notice it ...


it's true. they have been there for a while and i even announced it. i know that some of you were using them. the next release adds two more.

< Message edited by hack153 -- 1/17/2009 2:19:32 AM >


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RE: This is beyond words - 1/17/2009 4:52:55 AM   
quixian

 

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And as yet another endorsement for hack's playbooks, here is the partial gamelog and box score for a game I played this evening with a custom league I am tinkering with of late.  The CPU called timeouts and went for it on 4th down (and made it!) late in the game when trailing by 7.

The gamelog picks up when the CPU took over down 7 late in the game:

OFFENSIVE TEAM: BIRMINGHAM
DOWN: 1 TOGO: 10 BALLON: BIR 34 QUARTER: 4 TIME: 00:29
The pass from BELLFLOWER(QB) for VICHI(WR).
The pass was completed for 45 yards.
Tackle made by BLACKSON.

SMITH P G5 HAILMARY vs BUF PREVENT

OFFENSIVE TEAM: BIRMINGHAM
DOWN: 1 TOGO: 10 BALLON: NJ 21 QUARTER: 4 TIME: 00:22
The pass from BELLFLOWER(QB) for DAMIANI(WR).
The pass was completed for 9 yards.
Tackle made by WEISMILLER.

SMITH P G4 R1 CURL vs BUF D M2M C3

OFFENSIVE TEAM: BIRMINGHAM
DOWN: 2 TOGO: 1 BALLON: NJ 12 QUARTER: 4 TIME: 00:18
A pass attempt from BELLFLOWER(QB).
The pass attempt fell incomplete.

SMITH P G4 R2 IN FLY vs BUF D M2M C3

OFFENSIVE TEAM: BIRMINGHAM
DOWN: 3 TOGO: 1 BALLON: NJ 12 QUARTER: 4 TIME: 00:14
A pass attempt from BELLFLOWER(QB).
The pass attempt fell incomplete.

SMITH P G4 R1 FLOOD vs BROWN 42N M2M B C1 C

OFFENSIVE TEAM: BIRMINGHAM
DOWN: 4 TOGO: 1 BALLON: NJ 12 QUARTER: 4 TIME: 00:10
The pass from BELLFLOWER(QB) for DEARING(WR).
The pass was completed for 4 yards.
Tackle made by OTTILIGE.

SMITH P GL TE2 OUTS vs BROWN 44S M2M C1 E

OFFENSIVE TEAM: BIRMINGHAM
DOWN: 1 TOGO: 10 BALLON: NJ 8 QUARTER: 4 TIME: 00:07
A pass attempt from BELLFLOWER(QB).
The pass was knocked away by BLACKSON and fell incomplete.

SMITH P G4 R2 CURL vs BUF D M2M BLITZ C1

OFFENSIVE TEAM: BIRMINGHAM
DOWN: 2 TOGO: 10 BALLON: NJ 8 QUARTER: 4 TIME: 00:04
A pass attempt from BELLFLOWER(QB).
The pass attempt fell incomplete.

SMITH P G4 R2 IN FLY vs BROWN 42N M2M B C1 E

OFFENSIVE TEAM: BIRMINGHAM
DOWN: 3 TOGO: 10 BALLON: NJ 8 QUARTER: 4 TIME: 00:01
SEALY picked up around 5 yards.
Tackle made by WESBERRY.

SMITH R G4 HB DIVE vs BROWN 41D M2M C1 A

*****************************************

Birmingham        07   07   07   00   00   21  
New Jersey        07   07   07   07   00   28  

                   BIR            NJ
1st Downs           18             26
Rushing             106            166
Passing             219            327
Net Yards           325            493
Penalties           6/57           6/45
Total Plays         64             84

Rushing
Att/Yds           32/106         40/166
Avg Gain          3.3            4.2
Fumbles/Lost      00/00          01/01

Passing
Comp/Att/INT      15/32/0        27/42/1
Yards             219            327
Avg Gain          14.6           12.1
Avg Per Att       6.8            7.8
Sacks Against     0              2

Kicking
Punts             9/351          5/189
Field Goals       0 of 0         0 of 1

POSSESSION          15:08          24:52


Individual Offense

Passing:
BIR -- BELLFLOWER 15-32, 219 YDS, 1 TD, 0 INT, 6.8YPA, 80.1R
NJ -- STARIN 27-42, 327 YDS, 4 TD, 1 INT, 7.8YPA, 109.9R

Receiving:
BIR -- VICHI 7-87 0 TD, ALTIG 2-68 1 TD,
KRUPKA 2-32 0 TD, DAMIANI 3-28 0 TD,
DEARING 1-4 0 TD,
NJ -- IRZYK 3-11 0 TD, HARDENBROOK 3-57 0 TD,
ROSCIOLI 3-31 0 TD, TANTON 1-7 0 TD,
RAUDEBAUGH 1-10 0 TD, BOHAC 11-101 3 TD,
TOULOUSE 5-110 1 TD, 

Rushing:
BIR -- SEALY 31-95 1 TD, SHINES 1-11 0 TD, 
NJ -- STARIN 1-1 0 TD, IRZYK 35-164 0 TD,
HARDENBROOK 4-1 0 TD, 

Kicking:
BIR --
NJ -- (1-29) OURSO 0 of 1,

Individual Defense

Tackles:
BIR -- VICHI 4, ALTIG 1, KRUPKA 1,
DAMIANI 1, DOU 13, RUNELS 3,
BODENHAMER 2, MCBREEN 3, YNOCENCIO 3,
DESHAW 17, RIMEL 1, ARN 4,
MACKELLAR 1, DHAMER 3, KENDRIX 1,
SHINES 1, SMURTHWAITE 6, STOLLEY 2,
DRESSEN 3, FENCIL 7,
NJ -- METHVIN 7, IRZYK 1, BLACKSON 4,
LIME 7, WEISMILLER 4, OTTILIGE 6,
JENNEY 2, LEGATE 2, WEGHORST 2,
VINGER 1, WESBERRY 4, MICHAELI 1,
CARMEAN 1, HAESSIG 3, ABY 2,
ILDEFONSO 1, RAUDEBAUGH 2, BOHAC 1, 

Sacks:
BIR -- ARN 1, FENCIL 1,
NJ --

Int:
BIR -- DOU 1-8,
NJ --


---- SCORING SUMMARY ----
05:08 1ST DWN: 2 TOGO: 6    BIR     TD    RUNELS ON A FUMBLE RECOVERY
04:57 1ST DWN: 1 TOGO: 10    BIR     PAT    FICKES
01:42 1ST DWN: 1 TOGO: 10    NJ     TD    6 YARD PASS FROM STARIN TO BOHAC
01:39 1ST DWN: 1 TOGO: 10    NJ     PAT    OURSO
04:52 2ND DWN: 3 TOGO: 7    BIR     TD    62 YARD PASS FROM BELLFLOWER TO ALTIG
04:44 2ND DWN: 1 TOGO: 10    BIR     PAT    FICKES
00:15 2ND DWN: 4 TOGO: 3    NJ     TD    61 YARD PASS FROM STARIN TO TOULOUSE
00:07 2ND DWN: 1 TOGO: 10    NJ     PAT    OURSO
06:32 3RD DWN: 2 TOGO: 10    NJ     TD    26 YARD PASS FROM STARIN TO BOHAC
06:28 3RD DWN: 1 TOGO: 10    NJ     PAT    OURSO
02:36 3RD DWN: 2 TOGO: 10    BIR     TD    SEALY ON A 3 RUN
02:29 3RD DWN: 3 TOGO: 4    BIR     PAT    FICKES
00:35 4TH DWN: 1 TOGO: 10    NJ     TD    3 YARD PASS FROM STARIN TO BOHAC
00:33 4TH DWN: 2 TOGO: 4    NJ     PAT    OURSO

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RE: This is beyond words - 1/17/2009 3:21:18 PM   
hack153

 

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looks good.  always good to see postive feedback!

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RE: This is beyond words - 1/18/2009 3:35:50 AM   
mudrick

 

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The problem I have is.......I can get the AI to go for it on 4th, down by 7, but they will also go for it on 4th down by 2 or 3 when they should be kicking a FG.  

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RE: This is beyond words - 1/18/2009 5:48:16 AM   
DreamTeams


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Sometimes they will, Mudrick. But, I've also seen them kick the FG when they should tie or win. It mostly depends on how detailed the situation profiles are. However, at other times the ai just does not do what it should.

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RE: This is beyond words - 1/18/2009 3:33:04 PM   
Marauders

 

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quote:

soon i will be adding play names under OFF/DEF/ST Coordinators (Wilson & Moyer will have DEF & ST Coord).  then I will name the playbook after the head coach.  this way you can move OFF/DEF/ST plays around and it appears/seems more realistic.


Hack, that is similar to how I suggested the game should be set up from a managerial point of view.  Each team owner would choose a head coach, as they do now, and each team would choose an offensive and defensive coordinator.  Each coordinator would have a playbook selected, so if the coordinator moved to another team, that playbook would go with him.  It also meant the the offensive and defensive playbooks would have been separate and distinct from one another.

Having plabooks in their own folders had to be done first, and that was something on the list of 2.5 features that may make it in to 3.0 by request of the beta team and community members.  David has stated that some file formats and folders have been changed, but I have not been given any more details than that.

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Post #: 21
RE: This is beyond words - 1/18/2009 3:44:02 PM   
Marauders

 

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quote:

The problem I have is.......I can get the AI to go for it on 4th, down by 7, but they will also go for it on 4th down by 2 or 3 when they should be kicking a FG.


Do you have situation groups set up for both situations in the gameplan?

It may be best to leave 4th down situation without any general (ANY) situational groups to allow the AI to kick the field goal late in the half or game.  If the game allowed special teams plays in the gameplan, this would not be a problem.

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Post #: 22
RE: This is beyond words - 1/19/2009 3:28:43 AM   
hack153

 

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i added some more 4th down situations that uses field location.  this way, the team should kick a field goal if they are 1-25 yrds and down by 1-3 pts at 0-1 min to go.

that will only be included on Coach Wilson.

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