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NO MORE PBEM for me! - 1/12/2009 7:14:21 PM   
gunny3013

 

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I apologize in advance but I have had my fill of this crappy game!!! !@#$%^&*!

1.) As the southern player in a PBEM game, you are able to predict every single attack without fail and double your defense? Not very likely, but it happens constantly
2.) The game AI makes my units go on “Suicide” attacks despite my turning off the avoid battle buttons in an effort to coordinate an attack thus wiping them out.
3.) The lack of northern invasion ability enables an all out northern attack by southern forces ignoring the defense of southern coastlines.
4.) 100% all out attacks by all southern units despite the south’s lack of realistic desire to do so in the actual war.

I know there are players out there who want an "even" playing field in that war but get real, it never existed that way!

Its a great game if you stick to playing the AI ONLY though.
Post #: 1
RE: NO MORE PBEM for me! - 1/12/2009 7:30:08 PM   
MilRevKo

 

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The AI is a learning tool only.

It is a PBEM game. The human opponent is the what it is all about. There is no program on earth that can consider the third or forth order ramifications of it's actions and choices.



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(in reply to gunny3013)
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RE: NO MORE PBEM for me! - 1/12/2009 8:08:51 PM   
gunny3013

 

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"The AI is a learning tool only. It is a PBEM game. The human opponent is the what it is all about. There is no program on earth that can consider the third or forth order ramifications of it's actions and choices."

...so the fact that constant messages about southern invasions to Canada doesn't tell you there is a problem. And what of the first two points!

(in reply to MilRevKo)
Post #: 3
RE: NO MORE PBEM for me! - 1/12/2009 9:27:37 PM   
terje439


Posts: 6893
Joined: 3/28/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: gunny3013

I apologize in advance but I have had my fill of this crappy game!!! !@#$%^&*!

1.) As the southern player in a PBEM game, you are able to predict every single attack without fail and double your defense? Not very likely, but it happens constantly
2.) The game AI makes my units go on “Suicide” attacks despite my turning off the avoid battle buttons in an effort to coordinate an attack thus wiping them out.
3.) The lack of northern invasion ability enables an all out northern attack by southern forces ignoring the defense of southern coastlines.
4.) 100% all out attacks by all southern units despite the south’s lack of realistic desire to do so in the actual war.

I know there are players out there who want an "even" playing field in that war but get real, it never existed that way!

Its a great game if you stick to playing the AI ONLY though.



We are all allowed to have our oppinions, but imo;
1) I do not agree. The Union will have so many places to attack, and there is no way you can predict and set up for a defence in all places.
2) Avoid battle increases chance no battle will occur, it all comes down to how your opponent has his setting.
avoid vs avoid = no battle
avoid vs seek = 50% chance of battle
seek vs seek = 100% chance of battle
3) You can invade as the Union, and take the Confederate cities. You will not however be able to produce anything in those cities.
4) Well, if you want an all out "this is what happened and this is all the South is allowed to do"-pbem, you will need to set up house rules before starting the game. OFC this means that you will also need to set some other victory condition as no invasions of the North will make the game unwinnable for th Confederacy with normal rules.
But, this is a game. In alot of WWII games I can play as Germany and invade England, I think that is ok. I would prefer to have the option to play out what-if's scenarios than follow what actually happened...

(in reply to gunny3013)
Post #: 4
RE: NO MORE PBEM for me! - 1/12/2009 11:15:44 PM   
gunny3013

 

Posts: 198
Joined: 3/24/2008
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quote:

ORIGINAL: terje439


quote:

ORIGINAL: gunny3013

I apologize in advance but I have had my fill of this crappy game!!! !@#$%^&*!

1.) As the southern player in a PBEM game, you are able to predict every single attack without fail and double your defense? Not very likely, but it happens constantly
2.) The game AI makes my units go on “Suicide” attacks despite my turning off the avoid battle buttons in an effort to coordinate an attack thus wiping them out.
3.) The lack of northern invasion ability enables an all out northern attack by southern forces ignoring the defense of southern coastlines.
4.) 100% all out attacks by all southern units despite the south’s lack of realistic desire to do so in the actual war.

I know there are players out there who want an "even" playing field in that war but get real, it never existed that way!

Its a great game if you stick to playing the AI ONLY though.



We are all allowed to have our oppinions, but imo;
1) I do not agree. The Union will have so many places to attack, and there is no way you can predict and set up for a defence in all places.
2) Avoid battle increases chance no battle will occur, it all comes down to how your opponent has his setting.
avoid vs avoid = no battle
avoid vs seek = 50% chance of battle
seek vs seek = 100% chance of battle
3) You can invade as the Union, and take the Confederate cities. You will not however be able to produce anything in those cities.
4) Well, if you want an all out "this is what happened and this is all the South is allowed to do"-pbem, you will need to set up house rules before starting the game. OFC this means that you will also need to set some other victory condition as no invasions of the North will make the game unwinnable for th Confederacy with normal rules.
But, this is a game. In alot of WWII games I can play as Germany and invade England, I think that is ok. I would prefer to have the option to play out what-if's scenarios than follow what actually happened...



Fact:
I have yet to play a game where the North had more forces than the south. These are NOT ballanced scenario's either.

Fact:
An equal union force is incappable of invading/winninmg a battle in the south because of terraign and other defenses.

Fact:
A very difficult invasion ability allows the southern player to strip his coastlines and put in play far more units than he would otherwise.

I don't mind the INVASION ability of the south to the north, but for pete's sake, at least give the Union a decent ability to invade southern coastlines. Hell most CSA players think its a joke and a waste to protect New Orleans with anything more than a few garrison brigades because they know the North can't defeat 'em.

(in reply to terje439)
Post #: 5
RE: NO MORE PBEM for me! - 1/12/2009 11:35:05 PM   
terje439


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quote:

ORIGINAL: gunny3013

Fact 1:
I have yet to play a game where the North had more forces than the south. These are NOT ballanced scenario's either.

Fact 2:
An equal union force is incappable of invading/winninmg a battle in the south because of terraign and other defenses.

Fact 3:
A very difficult invasion ability allows the southern player to strip his coastlines and put in play far more units than he would otherwise.

I don't mind the INVASION ability of the south to the north, but for pete's sake, at least give the Union a decent ability to invade southern coastlines. Hell most CSA players think its a joke and a waste to protect New Orleans with anything more than a few garrison brigades because they know the North can't defeat 'em.



Fact 1:
Just started up a normal game, this is the number of troops in the game.
Union: 82 "normal" brigades + 53 Garrisons = 135 brigades of all kind
CSA: 56 "normal" brigades + 73 Garrisons = 129 brigades of all kind

Fact 2:
For the first years, yup absolutely correct. They have poor leadership and poor quality troops. I have no issue with this as this is quite accurate, and not having this penalty against the Union would see 95% of the games won by the Union. But this is my oppinion, other ppl are mroe than welcome to feel different about it
And actually, what looses the battles for the Union imo is not the defence bonuses etc that the CSA gets, it is the CSA generals. In one battle I played (quick battle as it was a pbem game), my best Union commanders did 24 rallies to the CSA's 72!!

Fact 3:
Yes, here I agree. Invasions are really hard. But in a Pbem you can ask for reasonable house rules like defence needed on all coast-cities etc. Invasions are possible, but they are (at patch 1.10.10 not worth it, as you are likely to lose the province again, and the NW-bug will kill the Union. But when this bug is fixed it might actually change quite a bit, as going in and take a city just to cause unrest, destroy improvements, and forcing the CSA to protect his cities will become possible).

(in reply to gunny3013)
Post #: 6
RE: NO MORE PBEM for me! - 1/13/2009 12:00:22 AM   
gunny3013

 

Posts: 198
Joined: 3/24/2008
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quote:

ORIGINAL: terje439


quote:

ORIGINAL: gunny3013

Fact 1:
I have yet to play a game where the North had more forces than the south. These are NOT ballanced scenario's either.

Fact 2:
An equal union force is incappable of invading/winninmg a battle in the south because of terraign and other defenses.

Fact 3:
A very difficult invasion ability allows the southern player to strip his coastlines and put in play far more units than he would otherwise.

I don't mind the INVASION ability of the south to the north, but for pete's sake, at least give the Union a decent ability to invade southern coastlines. Hell most CSA players think its a joke and a waste to protect New Orleans with anything more than a few garrison brigades because they know the North can't defeat 'em.



Fact 1:
Just started up a normal game, this is the number of troops in the game.
Union: 82 "normal" brigades + 53 Garrisons = 135 brigades of all kind
CSA: 56 "normal" brigades + 73 Garrisons = 129 brigades of all kind

Fact 2:
For the first years, yup absolutely correct. They have poor leadership and poor quality troops. I have no issue with this as this is quite accurate, and not having this penalty against the Union would see 95% of the games won by the Union. But this is my oppinion, other ppl are mroe than welcome to feel different about it
And actually, what looses the battles for the Union imo is not the defence bonuses etc that the CSA gets, it is the CSA generals. In one battle I played (quick battle as it was a pbem game), my best Union commanders did 24 rallies to the CSA's 72!!

Fact 3:
Yes, here I agree. Invasions are really hard. But in a Pbem you can ask for reasonable house rules like defence needed on all coast-cities etc. Invasions are possible, but they are (at patch 1.10.10 not worth it, as you are likely to lose the province again, and the NW-bug will kill the Union. But when this bug is fixed it might actually change quite a bit, as going in and take a city just to cause unrest, destroy improvements, and forcing the CSA to protect his cities will become possible).



What my fine ruffled feather friend is trying to say (speaking on his behalf as a good friend) is that its ok to conduct what-ifs in a game, just don't pin historical victory conditions to it. ie, iether state that (as the game is) whomever defeats the opponent's nation wins or restrict the southern forces movement past the boarder states (due to their own ideology) do a Jefferson Davis Die roll of say 33% chance for each theater per turn and empower Union amphibious abilities and impose a historical victory conditions but do not cross the two conditions or the game becomes too wierd...

(in reply to terje439)
Post #: 7
RE: NO MORE PBEM for me! - 1/13/2009 12:19:00 AM   
gunny3013

 

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Please allow me to clarify;
 
1.) either have the "what-if" game and delete historical victory conditions (they would no longer make sense to impose) or;
 
2.) have a 33% (or some very limited restriction due to southern ideologies) chance of southern forces restrictions from invading northern states beyond the boarder states. Also give the Union its proud and heavily amphibious navy. Then restrict the union to its historical victory conditions.
 
I hope this clarifies things for you,

(in reply to gunny3013)
Post #: 8
RE: NO MORE PBEM for me! - 1/13/2009 12:30:30 AM   
terje439


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Ah, ty for that update

1) Why not have both and a toggle? That way everyone is happy.
2) This would require a completely new way of determining winning the game I suppose, as the CSA will not be able to rack up enough VPs this way.

But will not a STRONG Union invasion capability paired with their ability to outproduce the Confederacy, and the CSA not being allowed to attack the Union states lead to a very very strong Union hammering the Confederacy? The South will have to spread its scarce resources out thinly to protect everywhere while the Union gets stronger and stronger.
IMO it would be better to allow the Confederacy to head north as much as they like but improve Union invasion capabilities. That way the CSA is forced to keep GARRs at the coast, but still gives them a chance to hamper Union production.

But no matter what, I guess this is something for FoFII

(in reply to gunny3013)
Post #: 9
RE: NO MORE PBEM for me! - 1/13/2009 6:21:50 AM   
gunny3013

 

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I think you are absolutely correct, a strong union amphibious capability and allowing the confederacy to do as they please would make an accurate game.

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Post #: 10
RE: NO MORE PBEM for me! - 1/16/2009 5:21:49 PM   
Erik Rutins

 

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From: Vermont, USA
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Gunny,

Which scenario(s) did you actually play? Please note that the "standard" campaign scenario is not the one that has the historical balance.

Regards,

- Erik

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Post #: 11
RE: NO MORE PBEM for me! - 1/24/2009 8:59:48 PM   
gunny3013

 

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Joined: 3/24/2008
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Erik Rutins

Gunny,

Which scenario(s) did you actually play? Please note that the "standard" campaign scenario is not the one that has the historical balance.

Regards,

- Erik


Your absolutely correct, I'm ashamed to admit that I leaped before I looked.

(in reply to Erik Rutins)
Post #: 12
RE: NO MORE PBEM for me! - 1/24/2009 9:20:02 PM   
gunny3013

 

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I owe the great people who put together such a fine game as FoF (and anyone who read this thread) an appology. It appears I leaped to a conclusion about PBEM FoF before I examined all the facts.
This game is outstanding, both in its solution to so many wargame issues, and in the smooth way in witch a great deal of the "bean counting" is handled for you while letting you feel as if you were accomplishing all the minor tasks yourself.
I have been playing the game over and over again both in PBEM and PC and I can tell you I'm overjoyed with the results! If you were ever contemplating this purchase you should get this purchase done, its very well worth it!
To avoid frustration initially, I offer this advice to Yankee players only, Protect Cairo, and W.Virginia, convert every 5th brigade to artillery, draft in the spring, then convert every 5th brigade again onto Cavalry. Create Army containers of Two Corps with 3 div each. Place 4 brigades and one artillery unit into each division. In 1861 & 1862, let the rebs do the attacking on your "blue" areas your defending and build armories, camps and telegraphs. Then in 1863 be ready to move with your newly created armies. Watch for enemy siezures of Yankee territory right before winter sets in.

(in reply to gunny3013)
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RE: NO MORE PBEM for me! - 1/25/2009 6:06:28 PM   
Gil R.


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gunny3013,
It's good to read that you're converted. You're not the first to have initially negative thoughts and then warm to the game after playing more and getting a handle on how it works.

I'm curious: if we were to do a FOF2, which we're considering but have no official plans for, is there something we could do that would reduce the chances of such an initial response? Would a strategy guide help, for example?

_____________________________

Michael Jordan plays ball. Charles Manson kills people. I torment eager potential customers by not sharing screenshots of "Brother Against Brother." Everyone has a talent.

(in reply to gunny3013)
Post #: 14
RE: NO MORE PBEM for me! - 1/29/2009 2:18:42 AM   
gunny3013

 

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Joined: 3/24/2008
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Gil R.

gunny3013,
It's good to read that you're converted. You're not the first to have initially negative thoughts and then warm to the game after playing more and getting a handle on how it works.

I'm curious: if we were to do a FOF2, which we're considering but have no official plans for, is there something we could do that would reduce the chances of such an initial response? Would a strategy guide help, for example?


Gil,
Thank you for valuing my opinion.
A strategy guide from the very creators of a game is always a huge plus. What I think shocked me was how easily the Southern forces outnumber the northern ones in almost every scenario. We both are aware of the higher quality of the rebel forces and the superior leadership they have, but the one redeeming quality for the yankees is sheer numbers. (sounds kinda like WWII) With the great equalizer being removed the rebel connection to Canada, between two skilled players, is assured each and every game. I placed TWO full strength Union Armies in Cairo that were easily swept aside by a rebel Corps, just to give you an idea. If, however the rebels were forced to man key coastal areas due to a more effective union amphibious capability (as an example) then the war would take on a more realalistic feel IMHO.
To be honest, I'm probrably the last person to give advice to such skilled personnel as you all and only hope I have been of some assistance.

Thank You
Joey

(in reply to Gil R.)
Post #: 15
RE: NO MORE PBEM for me! - 1/29/2009 4:15:40 AM   
Gil R.


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When you say the Confederates outnumber the Union, do you mean just at the start of the scenario? The Union has a greater population, and before long should be able to put a lot more men in the field. (Have you looked at the overview statistics screen to see the relative strength of the two sides?)

I've got an idea for FOF2 that might get the Confederates to keep more units along the coastline. It would involve a good deal of programming, which is why we can't consider it for a patch (at least, not at the moment).

_____________________________

Michael Jordan plays ball. Charles Manson kills people. I torment eager potential customers by not sharing screenshots of "Brother Against Brother." Everyone has a talent.

(in reply to gunny3013)
Post #: 16
RE: NO MORE PBEM for me! - 1/29/2009 7:09:41 AM   
gunny3013

 

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Gil,

It is true that the union begins the game with superior numbers but with excessive losses and loss of territory that soon changes...

Joey

(in reply to Gil R.)
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RE: NO MORE PBEM for me! - 3/31/2009 12:23:19 AM   
jeffk3510


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If you don't like it, don' play it....

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Life is tough. The sooner you realize that, the easier it will be.

Currently chasing three kids around the Midwest.

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