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Bombard Mission BBs - 2nd try - 1/7/2009 5:44:48 PM   
Rainer

 

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Looks like my last post took a turn towards the barrel question. Interesting, but not directly linked to my question.
So let me please try to rephrase the questions:

1. Will BBs be limited with their main guns to one round (or better: one turn) of bombardement with AE like they are with Witp?

2. Will AE ships (or equivalent ships) be able to replenish ammunition for main batteries of BBs at sea? If so, only 1945 and later?

And yes, these are questions for the AE masters
Post #: 1
RE: Bombard Mission BBs - 2nd try - 1/7/2009 5:49:26 PM   
Chad Harrison


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Along those same lines, I would also ask what the ammo is for battleship guns. "9" shots never made any sense to me.

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RE: Bombard Mission BBs - 2nd try - 1/7/2009 6:25:43 PM   
Rainer

 

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Chad, I believe these numbers are kind of arbitrary and do not represent the rounds of ammo available. AA for instance has a "50" when fully ammunitioned (not only BBs but all kind of ships). At least the smaller AA guns certainly had more than 50 rounds of ammunition on board.
Why there are "12", "36" and "50" for the various guns to indicate max ammo supply I don't know. Would certainly be easier to read if it said "100%", "50%" and so on.

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RE: Bombard Mission BBs - 2nd try - 1/7/2009 7:27:34 PM   
Chad Harrison


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I knew that they meant not actual rounds, but ability to 'fire' that many times. I would feel better with a simple % of max available rounds, but if you know the max 'shots', then you can get to that point anyways. I have noticed in WitP:AE screenshots that you are now told what 100% is, so that will make figuring things out easier atleast.

The reason I stated the above was a BB in stock WitP will fire 6 out of 9 available 'shots' with a shore bombardment. So in one phase of bombarding, a BB will fire 2/3 of its available 14/16" ammo. That is what did not feel right. I am no expert by any means, it just seems that they were able to stay on station much, much longer and provide naval support for a prolonged time, prior to Iwo Jima and Okinawa.

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RE: Bombard Mission BBs - 2nd try - 1/7/2009 8:33:48 PM   
John Lansford

 

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There was an earlier discussion on naval bombardment missions here.  IIRC there are now two categories of bombardments; "raid" and "bombard".  Raid is what we've currently got in WitP; the ships race in, throw some shells and hightail it for their base.  Bombard is a more deliberate shelling of the shore, preparatory for invasions.  The ships stay in place and inflict more damage at the risk of not trying to evade air/sub attacks.  At least I think that was how it was described, anyway.

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RE: Bombard Mission BBs - 2nd try - 1/7/2009 8:50:22 PM   
Alikchi2

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: John Lansford

There was an earlier discussion on naval bombardment missions here.  IIRC there are now two categories of bombardments; "raid" and "bombard".  Raid is what we've currently got in WitP; the ships race in, throw some shells and hightail it for their base.  Bombard is a more deliberate shelling of the shore, preparatory for invasions.  The ships stay in place and inflict more damage at the risk of not trying to evade air/sub attacks.  At least I think that was how it was described, anyway.


If someone could confirm this, this would be EXCELLENT.

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RE: Bombard Mission BBs - 2nd try - 1/7/2009 11:52:20 PM   
Barb


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If there is distinction between these two missions, it would be EXCELENT as Alikachi said.

Actually in the 'Bombard' type mission, more ammo should be expended in daylight phase and with greater accuracy. Main target of this type of mission should be guns (ground units). The other type of mission 'Raid' should target airstrip/port facilities mainly and related ground squads (support, aviation support, naval support).

< Message edited by Barb -- 1/7/2009 11:55:49 PM >


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RE: Bombard Mission BBs - 2nd try - 1/8/2009 2:10:11 AM   
Shark7


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Barb

If there is distinction between these two missions, it would be EXCELENT as Alikachi said.

Actually in the 'Bombard' type mission, more ammo should be expended in daylight phase and with greater accuracy. Main target of this type of mission should be guns (ground units). The other type of mission 'Raid' should target airstrip/port facilities mainly and related ground squads (support, aviation support, naval support).


Weren't most bombardments used as 'fire support' to supress enemy fire on the landing troops and ships? With the occasional 'raid' type to target airfields and ports. I doubt it could be put in at this point, but it would be nice to be able able to specify 'raid' or 'fire support' so you could get the type you actually need.

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RE: Bombard Mission BBs - 2nd try - 1/8/2009 7:44:14 AM   
Barb


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Actually there were some phases in landing support operations (Bombardment missions):
1. Kill preidentified targets prior to invasion (could take few hours to few days - depends on how many targets are there). Targets: Known enemy coastal batteries, AA bateries, ammo dumps, command posts. Ships primarily employed: BBs, CAs
2. Pre invasion fire (D day, Hour H-). Targets: Beaches, beach exits, immediate rear area behind beaches to isolate them. Ships primarily employed: DDs, CLs, CAs
3. Invasion fire phase (D day, Hour H+). Targets: beach flanks, areas behind beaches, fire is walked inland, enemy batteries opening fire against landing troops. Ships primarily employed: DDs, CLs, CAs in beaches, CAs, BBs in rear.
4. Fire support - on call artillery for troops until enough divisional/corps artillery is brought ashore to do this mission.

EDIT: I wanted to post here this link: http://www.ibiblio.org/hyperwar/USN/ref/Amphibious/index.html#contents
It is US prewar amphibious doctrine. I think it is more or less like what they did IRL with refinements added by lectures learned.

< Message edited by Barb -- 1/8/2009 8:08:18 PM >


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RE: Bombard Mission BBs - 2nd try - 1/8/2009 2:40:55 PM   
Chad Harrison


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quote:

ORIGINAL: John Lansford

There was an earlier discussion on naval bombardment missions here.  IIRC there are now two categories of bombardments; "raid" and "bombard".  Raid is what we've currently got in WitP; the ships race in, throw some shells and hightail it for their base.  Bombard is a more deliberate shelling of the shore, preparatory for invasions.  The ships stay in place and inflict more damage at the risk of not trying to evade air/sub attacks.  At least I think that was how it was described, anyway.


Yes, can someone confirm this from the AE team. That would be so very nice!

So you would have the option to choose the equivalent of what the Japanease did on a regular basis with Guadacanal, or what the Allies did with every island they invaded starting with Tarawa.

Any details we can get on if this is indeed possible in AE and how it works exactly would be most appreciated!

Thanks in advance

Chad

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RE: Bombard Mission BBs - 2nd try - 1/8/2009 10:32:48 PM   
Rainer

 

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This is all very well and educating.
However, if the BBs can't do more than one turn of bombardment it is problematic at best (as I see it).

Fact Finding Mission: (WitP, 1.806, Allied against AI, Very Hard, One Day Turns, Game Date July 17, 1944):
Bombardment TF 2 BB 1 CA 3 CL 4 DD from Saipan to Pagan, with orders to stay/patrol
Replenishment TF 3 AO 4 AE 4 DD with orders to follow Bombardement TF
Both TFs fully replenished and fueled

After end of turn BBs were down to ammo level 3 (other ships to their equivalent figures) as expected.
Doing a "Replenish at Sea" yielded nothing. A CL took some fuel from the Oilers, but ALL ammo levels of ALL ships were unchanged. In other words: AE ships in WitP are worth nothing as far as replenishment is concerned.
Next turn the bombardment had only minor effects. CA and smaller ships (CL and DD) participated in the attack, but not the BBs.
Note: this may have different results in 1945. The manual says that ships can be replenished at sea by AEs only in 1945. I did not test this, and frankly, I don't believe this will work in 1945.

So it all comes down to the question (again): Will AEs (or a equivalent class of ships) be able to replenish surface battle ships with ammunition AT SEA?


PS: Received some bitter complaints from Pagan that "tests" are "historically inaccurate to the extreme" and should be banished at once! One of the AEs had a torpedo put in her by air attack from Iwo Jima. Naturally the US sailors lined up with the Japanese and vigorousely emphasized the Japanese complaints.


< Message edited by Rainer -- 1/8/2009 10:56:17 PM >

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RE: Bombard Mission BBs - 2nd try - 1/9/2009 1:45:26 AM   
rockmedic109

 

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As I understand it, not only do the AEs not replenish at sea till 1945, but they also cannot replace any ammunition for guns over 5".

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RE: Bombard Mission BBs - 2nd try - 1/9/2009 3:10:43 AM   
Rainer

 

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You're talking about WitP, right?
If so, is this what you experienced or assumption? The manual is silence about this (size of guns to be replenished), as far as I know.

In half a year (game's time) I'll try again. Then we'll know for sure what good these AEs are

Still, I wished one of The Powers That Are (AE wise) would shed some light on this.
Sigh, or better not. They'd use their limited time better to make the unthinkable happen ....


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RE: Bombard Mission BBs - 2nd try - 1/9/2009 4:46:09 AM   
witpqs


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I think when rockmedic said AE, he actually meant AE.

Of course, I might be wrong...

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RE: Bombard Mission BBs - 2nd try - 1/9/2009 5:26:12 AM   
bradfordkay

 

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Game manual v1.0  page 187

14.2.1 Depots and Tenders

...

Ammunition (AE) Ships

In 1945 or later, a ship may replenish non-torpedo, non-mine ammo that has an effect less than 60 (mostly AA ammunition of 5" size or smaller) if at sea and in the same hex with an AE that is in a replenishment TF.


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RE: Bombard Mission BBs - 2nd try - 1/9/2009 6:35:50 AM   
rockmedic109

 

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I was talking about WITP.  I don't know anything about AE except what I've read in the various AE threads.  Bradfordkay has it right.  That is where I got the info about AEs {ships} in WITP, not AE {game}.  Whether that is what really happens in the game, I cannot claim any knowledge.  I haven't gotten to 1945 and currently use AEs {ships} as expensive transports.

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RE: Bombard Mission BBs - 2nd try - 1/9/2009 11:18:36 AM   
Yamato hugger

 

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Its no different in AE as far as replenishing at sea. AEs in a port WILL reload BB ammo as long as there are supplies ON the AE. If there isnt supplies on it, you arent using it. At least thats my understanding.

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RE: Bombard Mission BBs - 2nd try - 1/9/2009 12:02:00 PM   
m10bob


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Yamato hugger

Its no different in AE as far as replenishing at sea. AEs in a port WILL reload BB ammo as long as there are supplies ON the AE. If there isnt supplies on it, you arent using it. At least thats my understanding.



Uhh....damn...that kinda makes sense.

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RE: Bombard Mission BBs - 2nd try - 1/9/2009 1:40:24 PM   
castor troy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Yamato hugger

Its no different in AE as far as replenishing at sea. AEs in a port WILL reload BB ammo as long as there are supplies ON the AE. If there isnt supplies on it, you arent using it. At least thats my understanding.



But AEs in WITP only replenish secondary armament ammo and not the big gun ammo. And in WITP they are pretty much useless until 45 as you can replenish BBs at level 1 ports! So you use AEs just for the taste of being somewhat more realistic if you have it at the port when the BBs replenish.

From IIRC sometime in 45 on you can use AEs to replenish secondary armament ammo while being AT SEA.

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RE: Bombard Mission BBs - 2nd try - 1/9/2009 2:04:04 PM   
Chad Harrison


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Yamato hugger

Its no different in AE as far as replenishing at sea. AEs in a port WILL reload BB ammo as long as there are supplies ON the AE. If there isnt supplies on it, you arent using it. At least thats my understanding.


Any confirmation on the two bombardment types? Details on them?

Thanks in advance

Chad

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RE: Bombard Mission BBs - 2nd try - 1/9/2009 2:04:15 PM   
Yamato hugger

 

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Well in WitP a BB can reload at a level 1 port as long as there are supplies so AEs arent really needed in WitP (except to reload at sea in 1945-46).

This is a changin.

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RE: Bombard Mission BBs - 2nd try - 1/9/2009 2:05:44 PM   
Yamato hugger

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Chad Harrison


quote:

ORIGINAL: Yamato hugger

Its no different in AE as far as replenishing at sea. AEs in a port WILL reload BB ammo as long as there are supplies ON the AE. If there isnt supplies on it, you arent using it. At least thats my understanding.


Any confirmation on the two bombardment types? Details on them?

Thanks in advance

Chad


2 bombardment types. 1) Bombardment TF - same as WitP 2) ships in amphib TF, more or less same as WitP (with different results).

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RE: Bombard Mission BBs - 2nd try - 1/9/2009 7:06:49 PM   
m10bob


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I doubt more than a handful of us have even made it to 1945, so I'll just keep using those AE ships as AK's..

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RE: Bombard Mission BBs - 2nd try - 1/9/2009 7:35:57 PM   
bradfordkay

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: castor troy


quote:

ORIGINAL: Yamato hugger

Its no different in AE as far as replenishing at sea. AEs in a port WILL reload BB ammo as long as there are supplies ON the AE. If there isnt supplies on it, you arent using it. At least thats my understanding.



But AEs in WITP only replenish secondary armament ammo and not the big gun ammo. And in WITP they are pretty much useless until 45 as you can replenish BBs at level 1 ports! So you use AEs just for the taste of being somewhat more realistic if you have it at the port when the BBs replenish.

From IIRC sometime in 45 on you can use AEs to replenish secondary armament ammo while being AT SEA.


In my PBEM with Chez, the house rules prevent replenishing the ammunition of any capital ships at any port smaller than size five, unless you have an AE at that port. This is our way of making them useful and keeping the game with a historic feel.

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RE: Bombard Mission BBs - 2nd try - 1/9/2009 8:00:50 PM   
JWE

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: m10bob
I doubt more than a handful of us have even made it to 1945, so I'll just keep using those AE ships as AK's..

A non-optimal solution Big Bob. Oh yeah! re-arming has changed! Used to be you could dump a gazillion tons o’ supply at Lava-Lava and Large-Slow-Target’s lovelies would bring you smiles, coconuts and 16” ammo in their canoe. Alas, no longer; aside from the lack of ‘support’ for the ‘essential equipment’, we found we had to kick three of them out of the canoe because of the weight, and you wouldn’t believe the combat results.

AE retains exactly the same supply requirement for rearming as WiTP-1. However, re-arm also now depends on port size. Briefly, a BB ain’t gonna rearm at a ‘basic’ port less than 7 (smaller ships at smaller ports proportionally). There is a new class of LCU, called Naval Support that assists in many things and has the capability of raising a port level, just by being there. NavSup is found in Base Forces, Nav HQs, etc.. Enough of it can raise a port 4 or 5 to a port 7 for re-arm purposes.

So .. build-up ports and populate them. You will only be able to do this for a limited number so, as the Boy Scouts say, be prepared (prior planning prevents pi$$ poor performance).

There’s 2 kinds of AKEs in the game (actually many that are ship type specific). There’s an xAKE and an AKE. The difference is an AKE can re-arm “underway” late war. An xAKE can anchor somewhere and become a floating brothel for a ‘big boy’, so long as he comes home to mama. Now there’s AGx things that also do the deed for DDs, MTBs, all that stuff.

Last, but not least, we have removed the ability to magically convert a merchie to an AKE from both sides. Allies get a poop-load of xAKEs, what they actually got, some of which become AKEs, which actually happened. Japan gets a conversion capability to xAKEs of certain high value ships that may, or may not, exist come conversion time.

Analyze and aggregate your assets. Think ahead by at least a year. Plan your fleet anchorages. Think. Ciao. John


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RE: Bombard Mission BBs - 2nd try - 1/9/2009 8:27:32 PM   
Mike Solli


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quote:

ORIGINAL: JWE


quote:

ORIGINAL: m10bob
I doubt more than a handful of us have even made it to 1945, so I'll just keep using those AE ships as AK's..

A non-optimal solution Big Bob. Oh yeah! re-arming has changed! Used to be you could dump a gazillion tons o’ supply at Lava-Lava and Large-Slow-Target’s lovelies would bring you smiles, coconuts and 16” ammo in their canoe. Alas, no longer; aside from the lack of ‘support’ for the ‘essential equipment’, we found we had to kick three of them out of the canoe because of the weight, and you wouldn’t believe the combat results.

AE retains exactly the same supply requirement for rearming as WiTP-1. However, re-arm also now depends on port size. Briefly, a BB ain’t gonna rearm at a ‘basic’ port less than 7 (smaller ships at smaller ports proportionally). There is a new class of LCU, called Naval Support that assists in many things and has the capability of raising a port level, just by being there. NavSup is found in Base Forces, Nav HQs, etc.. Enough of it can raise a port 4 or 5 to a port 7 for re-arm purposes.

So .. build-up ports and populate them. You will only be able to do this for a limited number so, as the Boy Scouts say, be prepared (prior planning prevents pi$$ poor performance).

There’s 2 kinds of AKEs in the game (actually many that are ship type specific). There’s an xAKE and an AKE. The difference is an AKE can re-arm “underway” late war. An xAKE can anchor somewhere and become a floating brothel for a ‘big boy’, so long as he comes home to mama. Now there’s AGx things that also do the deed for DDs, MTBs, all that stuff.

Last, but not least, we have removed the ability to magically convert a merchie to an AKE from both sides. Allies get a poop-load of xAKEs, what they actually got, some of which become AKEs, which actually happened. Japan gets a conversion capability to xAKEs of certain high value ships that may, or may not, exist come conversion time.

Analyze and aggregate your assets. Think ahead by at least a year. Plan your fleet anchorages. Think. Ciao. John



Uhhhh........ Wow!

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RE: Bombard Mission BBs - 2nd try - 1/13/2009 5:04:26 AM   
CarnageINC


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quote:

ORIGINAL: JWE

A non-optimal solution Big Bob. Oh yeah! re-arming has changed! Used to be you could dump a gazillion tons o’ supply at Lava-Lava and Large-Slow-Target’s lovelies would bring you smiles, coconuts and 16” ammo in their canoe. Alas, no longer; aside from the lack of ‘support’ for the ‘essential equipment’, we found we had to kick three of them out of the canoe because of the weight, and you wouldn’t believe the combat results.

AE retains exactly the same supply requirement for rearming as WiTP-1. However, re-arm also now depends on port size. Briefly, a BB ain’t gonna rearm at a ‘basic’ port less than 7 (smaller ships at smaller ports proportionally). There is a new class of LCU, called Naval Support that assists in many things and has the capability of raising a port level, just by being there. NavSup is found in Base Forces, Nav HQs, etc.. Enough of it can raise a port 4 or 5 to a port 7 for re-arm purposes.

So .. build-up ports and populate them. You will only be able to do this for a limited number so, as the Boy Scouts say, be prepared (prior planning prevents pi$$ poor performance).

There’s 2 kinds of AKEs in the game (actually many that are ship type specific). There’s an xAKE and an AKE. The difference is an AKE can re-arm “underway” late war. An xAKE can anchor somewhere and become a floating brothel for a ‘big boy’, so long as he comes home to mama. Now there’s AGx things that also do the deed for DDs, MTBs, all that stuff.

Last, but not least, we have removed the ability to magically convert a merchie to an AKE from both sides. Allies get a poop-load of xAKEs, what they actually got, some of which become AKEs, which actually happened. Japan gets a conversion capability to xAKEs of certain high value ships that may, or may not, exist come conversion time.

Analyze and aggregate your assets. Think ahead by at least a year. Plan your fleet anchorages. Think. Ciao. John



Sweet, all the new stuff put in AE will drastically changed the way the game is played, I can wait until this baby is ready to roll


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RE: Bombard Mission BBs - 2nd try - 1/14/2009 4:13:52 AM   
Hornblower


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me like..

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RE: Bombard Mission BBs - 2nd try - 1/14/2009 12:08:28 PM   
m10bob


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quote:

ORIGINAL: JWE


quote:

ORIGINAL: m10bob
I doubt more than a handful of us have even made it to 1945, so I'll just keep using those AE ships as AK's..

A non-optimal solution Big Bob. Oh yeah! re-arming has changed! Used to be you could dump a gazillion tons o’ supply at Lava-Lava and Large-Slow-Target’s lovelies would bring you smiles, coconuts and 16” ammo in their canoe. Alas, no longer; aside from the lack of ‘support’ for the ‘essential equipment’, we found we had to kick three of them out of the canoe because of the weight, and you wouldn’t believe the combat results.

AE retains exactly the same supply requirement for rearming as WiTP-1. However, re-arm also now depends on port size. Briefly, a BB ain’t gonna rearm at a ‘basic’ port less than 7 (smaller ships at smaller ports proportionally). There is a new class of LCU, called Naval Support that assists in many things and has the capability of raising a port level, just by being there. NavSup is found in Base Forces, Nav HQs, etc.. Enough of it can raise a port 4 or 5 to a port 7 for re-arm purposes.

So .. build-up ports and populate them. You will only be able to do this for a limited number so, as the Boy Scouts say, be prepared (prior planning prevents pi$$ poor performance).

There’s 2 kinds of AKEs in the game (actually many that are ship type specific). There’s an xAKE and an AKE. The difference is an AKE can re-arm “underway” late war. An xAKE can anchor somewhere and become a floating brothel for a ‘big boy’, so long as he comes home to mama. Now there’s AGx things that also do the deed for DDs, MTBs, all that stuff.

Last, but not least, we have removed the ability to magically convert a merchie to an AKE from both sides. Allies get a poop-load of xAKEs, what they actually got, some of which become AKEs, which actually happened. Japan gets a conversion capability to xAKEs of certain high value ships that may, or may not, exist come conversion time.

Analyze and aggregate your assets. Think ahead by at least a year. Plan your fleet anchorages. Think. Ciao. John




Quit stepping on me...I am camping right here in front of the door till the store opens!



< Message edited by m10bob -- 1/14/2009 12:40:54 PM >


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RE: Bombard Mission BBs - 2nd try - 1/14/2009 1:15:39 PM   
rockmedic109

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: m10bob

quote:

ORIGINAL: JWE


quote:

ORIGINAL: m10bob
I doubt more than a handful of us have even made it to 1945, so I'll just keep using those AE ships as AK's..

A non-optimal solution Big Bob. Oh yeah! re-arming has changed! Used to be you could dump a gazillion tons o’ supply at Lava-Lava and Large-Slow-Target’s lovelies would bring you smiles, coconuts and 16” ammo in their canoe. Alas, no longer; aside from the lack of ‘support’ for the ‘essential equipment’, we found we had to kick three of them out of the canoe because of the weight, and you wouldn’t believe the combat results.

AE retains exactly the same supply requirement for rearming as WiTP-1. However, re-arm also now depends on port size. Briefly, a BB ain’t gonna rearm at a ‘basic’ port less than 7 (smaller ships at smaller ports proportionally). There is a new class of LCU, called Naval Support that assists in many things and has the capability of raising a port level, just by being there. NavSup is found in Base Forces, Nav HQs, etc.. Enough of it can raise a port 4 or 5 to a port 7 for re-arm purposes.

So .. build-up ports and populate them. You will only be able to do this for a limited number so, as the Boy Scouts say, be prepared (prior planning prevents pi$$ poor performance).

There’s 2 kinds of AKEs in the game (actually many that are ship type specific). There’s an xAKE and an AKE. The difference is an AKE can re-arm “underway” late war. An xAKE can anchor somewhere and become a floating brothel for a ‘big boy’, so long as he comes home to mama. Now there’s AGx things that also do the deed for DDs, MTBs, all that stuff.

Last, but not least, we have removed the ability to magically convert a merchie to an AKE from both sides. Allies get a poop-load of xAKEs, what they actually got, some of which become AKEs, which actually happened. Japan gets a conversion capability to xAKEs of certain high value ships that may, or may not, exist come conversion time.

Analyze and aggregate your assets. Think ahead by at least a year. Plan your fleet anchorages. Think. Ciao. John




Quit stepping on me...I am camping right here in front of the door till the store opens!



There have been games I have been excited about. Star Fleet Command {I began playing Star Fleet Battles when it was a little 36 page booklet with fine print}; Red Baron 2 {I'd like this one remade.....if even the same game that will play on newer computers}; Vampire the Masquerade; WITP.

But I think I have never wanted to new game to come out as badly as I do AE.

Move over Bob. I have to roll out my memory foam pad.

(in reply to m10bob)
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