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Proposed Option: Reduced Combined Fleet Movement

 
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Proposed Option: Reduced Combined Fleet Movement - 11/26/2008 7:37:20 PM   
Mardonius


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Hello EiAers:

Some of you may recall in the ADG/AH board game version of EIA, there was an OPTION for multiple fleets moving together having reduced the movement of the fleets by "1" to a minimum of "4". I think this optional rule woull be a great thing to bring into the EiA NW version. Clearly, Transports with their "3" movement already would have to be exempted.

Your thoughts and comments are solicited.


Best,
Mardonius
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RE: Proposed Option: Reduced Combined Fleet Movement - 11/26/2008 7:48:17 PM   
NeverMan

 

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I don't have a problem if this is put in as an OPTION ONLY IN THE EMPIRES IN ARMS version of the game, not the current EMPIRES IN HARMS version.

EDIT: Unless the transport fleets movement is put back to where it should be.

(in reply to Mardonius)
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RE: Proposed Option: Reduced Combined Fleet Movement - 11/26/2008 8:03:44 PM   
La Provence


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My opinion about that is :

- 4 movement for the transport (I think that 3 is too weak !) ;
- 7 movement for the Freg.
- 7 movement for the Vais.       (and why not 6 ?)*

And reduced the capacity of a stack (at least 2 fleets) by 1 for each fleets over two and never below 4...like transport capacity. I agree Mardonius for this !


*The game made the difference between Vais and Freg by the build cost...... and ?
I also think that 18 months to build a Vais is too high (15 will be better) !

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RE: Proposed Option: Reduced Combined Fleet Movement - 11/26/2008 8:17:35 PM   
NeverMan

 

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I just don't see why Empires in Arms should have 3 when Empires in Arms had 7.

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RE: Proposed Option: Reduced Combined Fleet Movement - 11/28/2008 10:03:47 AM   
delatbabel


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I have not and would not ever use this option. It is unrealistic.  More ships do not move slower than fewer ships.

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RE: Proposed Option: Reduced Combined Fleet Movement - 11/28/2008 2:47:30 PM   
Mardonius


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quote:

ORIGINAL: delatbabel

I have not and would not ever use this option. It is unrealistic.  More ships do not move slower than fewer ships.


That is a lot of horsefeathers Del. Have you not heard the true aphorism that "a fleet moves at the speed of the slowest ship"? Even today, when we don't have to account for winds nearly to the degree of sailing days, ships go astray, breakdown etc, thereby slowing down the fleet. Even small squadrons suffer this effect. Read the rather current release Six Frigates: The Epic History of the Founding of the U.S. Navy by Ian W. Toll or the classic The Influence of Sea Power Upon History, 1660-1783 By Alfred Thayer Mahan.

Here is a web published version of "Famous Sea Fights From Salamis to Tsu-Shima" by John Richard Hale
http://www.gutenberg.org/files/25088/25088.txt

Gove it a search under "speed" and you will see how you might be mistaken

best Mardonius

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RE: Proposed Option: Reduced Combined Fleet Movement - 11/30/2008 1:32:30 AM   
delatbabel


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Hi, I have read the Hale book and also books by Keegan, etc.

A fleet moves at the speed of the slowest ship, that's a given. However a larger number of ships does not make the slowest ship slower. That's what the -1 movement point per fleet creates, and it's not correct.

Given that a fleet counter in EiA covers many ships, that fleet is going to move at the speed of the slowest ship anyway. Adding more faster ships isn't going to make that slow ship any slower, or any faster either.

The problem with a large stack moving together is that they tend to drift and scatter. That isn't recreated by the -1 MP per fleet rule.

Probably a better way of recreating it would be to have an increased probability per fleet in a stack that 1 or more of the fleets "scatters", i.e. ends up in a different sea zone to the rest of the stack. So, for example, if you move 1 fleet from Southhampton to Gibraltar it arrives OK, but if you move 5 fleets then there's a 20% (for example) chance that 1-2 of them end up in the sea zone outside Gibraltar, or lose a few MP along the way and end up a few sea zones short.


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Del

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RE: Proposed Option: Reduced Combined Fleet Movement - 11/30/2008 2:41:37 PM   
eske

 

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So to let ships, that scatter, catch up, all other ships slows down ... as in fewer movement points ...

(Sorry, couldn't resist.)

/eske



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RE: Proposed Option: Reduced Combined Fleet Movement - 11/30/2008 4:22:16 PM   
iamspamus

 

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Yeah, I have to agree. I think that more ships = slower. There is more time needed to coordinate, even entering and exiting the port takes longer. This is an abstraction that I have no problem with.

I'd say bump up the transport fleet to 4 and reduce the others per extra stack.

On that note, wasn't Trafalgar one of the "biggest" fleet battles of the time period? If so, at 27 (?) and 33 (?) ships, this is at most 3 fleets: 1 Brit and on the other side 1 French and one Spanish. Yet, in EIA/EiANW you routinely see 5 or more fleets stacked. I don't really have a fix for it, but just noting the point.

Jason

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RE: Proposed Option: Reduced Combined Fleet Movement - 11/30/2008 4:23:21 PM   
iamspamus

 

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So, yes, you optional rulester, I'm in. I like it. Keep those dirty English in check. :-)

Jason

quote:

ORIGINAL: NeverMan

I don't have a problem if this is put in as an OPTION ONLY IN THE EMPIRES IN ARMS version of the game, not the current EMPIRES IN HARMS version.

EDIT: Unless the transport fleets movement is put back to where it should be.


(in reply to NeverMan)
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RE: Proposed Option: Reduced Combined Fleet Movement - 11/30/2008 4:50:51 PM   
bresh

 

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Problem is the "smaller" fleets compared to EIA, so if move malus should be introduced, it should be pr 2 fleets incrementals.

Regards
Bresh

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RE: Proposed Option: Reduced Combined Fleet Movement - 11/30/2008 4:54:56 PM   
iamspamus

 

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Hmm. Yep, I could see that or -1 per heavy or 2 lights or something like that. Not sure about not counting lights...
Jason

quote:

ORIGINAL: bresh

Problem is the "smaller" fleets compared to EIA, so if move malus should be introduced, it should be pr 2 fleets incrementals.

Regards
Bresh


(in reply to bresh)
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RE: Proposed Option: Reduced Combined Fleet Movement - 11/30/2008 5:27:21 PM   
Mardonius


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quote:

ORIGINAL: eske

So to let ships, that scatter, catch up, all other ships slows down ... as in fewer movement points ...

(Sorry, couldn't resist.)

/eske




Eske captures the point of the optional rule here... Or at least how I read it.

best
Mardonius

(in reply to eske)
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RE: Proposed Option: Reduced Combined Fleet Movement - 12/1/2008 11:34:46 AM   
delatbabel


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The problem is that ships arriving in port before the rest of the fleet don't really get the option to slow down to check out what the stragglers have done.  Communication at sea, especially over long distances, isn't perfect today and it certainly wasn't anywhere near perfect in 1805.  So the ships arriving at Gibraltar aren't going to back step 2 sea zones to catch up with the rest of the fleet.

Hence I prefer the scatter rule rather than the losing MPs rule.

Lastly I should put together that set of tables with optional movement distances for fleets based on wind speed and direction, which in turn depend on the sea zone and time of year, but it involves somewhat more head space than I have available at the moment.


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