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RE: BFTB AAR: The Losheim Gap

 
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RE: BFTB AAR: The Losheim Gap - 12/2/2008 3:32:52 PM   
06 Maestro


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Arjuna

Am I heading in the right direction?


I think you undersatand his hints, but it is not the "right" direction. Popups on the battle maps while just moving the cursor? Pulsating lights?? Hell NO! (please).

(in reply to Arjuna)
Post #: 31
RE: BFTB AAR: The Losheim Gap - 12/2/2008 3:46:33 PM   
HansBolter


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quote:

ORIGINAL: VictorInThePacific

quote:

2) as in a dog hunting/chasing a rabbit, for example. "Hetzen" then refers to the dog exhausting the rabbit by keeping him on the move, pretty much like the dogs hunting foxes in Britain. "Jemanden zu Tode hetzen" would translate to "fatally exhausting someone", i guess.


Really excellent and accurate details about this vehicle provided by GoodGuy.

May I suggest translating "Hetzer" as "Harrier". First, it is technically correct. Second, it is a good name for a TD. The other suggested translations do not meet both criteria.


This is the translation I have always preferred.

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Post #: 32
RE: BFTB AAR: The Losheim Gap - 12/2/2008 7:57:06 PM   
06 Maestro


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Regarding the "proper translation" of Hetzer; since when does a name need to be a technically correct word? BTW, you hunt rabbits with a Harrier, you can hunt bear with a hound.
In any event, Hetzer was used on American board game chits 40 years ago-it is a known name, so why even translate it? It is, so to speak, small bratwurst-machs nix.

A very good AAR going on here-drive on hard.

(in reply to HansBolter)
Post #: 33
RE: BFTB AAR: The Losheim Gap - 12/2/2008 9:07:36 PM   
jmlima

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: 06 Maestro
..
In any event, Hetzer was used on American board game chits 40 years ago-it is a known name, so why even translate it? ...


Absolutely. It would be senseless nit-picking to translate it.

(in reply to 06 Maestro)
Post #: 34
RE: BFTB AAR: The Losheim Gap - 12/3/2008 4:04:55 AM   
SeaMonkey

 

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No Dave, there is enough information, No 06M not popups on the map, on the contrary I want less intrusion upon the maps.  The foundation is the geography, the land stays there, the armies move, they come and go, they should have the transparency, not the intrusion on the beautiful AA maps by their overlay.

But we need the units' orientations.  Seems I didn't communicate very well, my apologies.  Let's see...an example...hmmmm.

OK...the units are in a grouping, a command structure, in various formations of deployment.  AA has this, but the way its presented on the map should be like the situation maps in our history books.  The NATO icons for this example will do, but no base, just the unit designation on the side of the type box, the size above.  So for an AA battalion for instance you may have a cluster of the HQ, 3 companies and a couple of platoons, =6 nato icons.

This cluster has a border, a defining line on its perimeter, its front, flanks,sides, rear, etc.  There is cohesion so it should be a blob like footprint loosely based on its chosen formation...think of a cloud in two dimensions with a distinct border,  like a computer radar signature of precipitation hovering over a google weather map, its animated and you watch it move into your location of interest.

Ever interact with a weather map where you can change the degree of tranparency the precipitation signal diplays so that you can still observe the underlying geography?  Ever observe the different colors based on the degree of intensity the rain cloud precipitation has?  Green is light rain, yellow heavier, red ...really intense, its all from a doppler radar and it gives you a definition of the action in conjunction with the land it is invading.

Now do you see?  The rain clouds are the combat formations in the user's chosen transparency moving in the geographical display(map), not obscurring it.

See those 6 nato icons in that cloud, you can tell what they are, where they are, their size and with a little more visual aid their current actions(AA has all this), ...we'll get to that later.

Now Maestro, when you mouse over those icons in that cloud(deployment footprint), and their tranparency brightens a bit, over to the left, or right, or whatever, not on the map, where ever that unit panel's location happens to be(Like AA has now), guess what resides in that "Unit information panel"?

Am I being a bit clearer now?

I'm not asking for more information, just a little bit different configuration of diplaying it.

So I can enjoy the beautiful AA maps in a more dynamic, interactive combat environment, just like if I happen to open the pages of  "Afrika Korps" to a situational map of "The Cauldron" and all of a sudden it comes to life.

< Message edited by SeaMonkey -- 12/3/2008 4:11:23 AM >

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Post #: 35
RE: BFTB AAR: The Losheim Gap - 12/3/2008 4:41:47 AM   
simovitch


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Late morning on December 18th.
Dave was right; the group I gave the attack SOP to (I Bn 190 Grenadier Rgt) did not encounter any threats worth breaking formation over and they plodded on through the night all the way to the Prummerberg hill overlooking St. Vith. When dawn broke they discovered that the town was not theirs for the taking and pulled back to defensive positions. They are way out on a limb now, with what looks like retreating elements of the 106th division following them up the road from Schlierbach. Not good.

The Americans are starting to pull together some cohesive defensive postions, putting a halt to the advance of the II/164 north of Steinebrück and the Vorausabteilung of the 18th VGD west of Heuem.

My assets are stretched to the limit right now and I'm looking forward to Otto Remer's Führer Begleit Brigade due to arrive sometime tomorrow morning. In the meantime I can scrape together some Pioneer companies and some Infantry Gun platoons from Division to hold some of the key junctions and free up some of my line companies.




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Post #: 36
RE: BFTB AAR: The Losheim Gap - 12/3/2008 7:17:17 AM   
Helpless


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quote:

ORIGINAL: simovitch

Here's a good example of the new feature where the map textures have changed now that mud has set in on the 17th. You can compare the texture below with the sceenshots from December 16th:





Now you can visually stuck in mud - that's great! :).. is there a chance to loose an equipment when driving in mud/forests?

_____________________________

Pavel Zagzin
WITE/WITW/WITE-2 Development

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Post #: 37
RE: BFTB AAR: The Losheim Gap - 12/3/2008 7:52:19 AM   
Arjuna


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Helpless,

No we have yet to add in a "breakdowns" feature. After BFTB, I'm afraid.

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www.panthergames.com

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Post #: 38
RE: BFTB AAR: The Losheim Gap - 12/3/2008 11:48:06 AM   
CriticalMass


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SeaMonkey, so you are requesting a unit footprint feature?

The questions I initially ask myself are: units "out of contact", would they be part of the footprint? Is it hierarchical? i.e if you click on a line unit does it display ALL it's super force and all it's sub units?

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I decided to ignore my orders and to take command at the front with my own hands as soon as possible
- Lieutenant General Erwin Rommel

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Post #: 39
RE: BFTB AAR: The Losheim Gap - 12/3/2008 7:41:52 PM   
patchogue


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I bet the yanks are feeling fairly hard pressed too! One more push...then another...and...

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1941

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Post #: 40
RE: BFTB AAR: The Losheim Gap - 12/3/2008 8:44:05 PM   
Greup

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: GoodGuy

quote:

ORIGINAL: BftB - Hetzer's unit description (general tab)

The unit description of the Hetzer tank translates Hetzer with the word "troublemaker".


...
I am not sure about the english translation for Hetzer, it may be "baiter" ??, in case you could say "to bait a fox or a bear" in English. Or maybe "badger", as I think "to badge" refers to hunting/pushing someone as well?


During my days playing the original Squad Leader and Cross of Iron I was relatively young and addicted to panzer porn. I sought ought the definitive (well..) source for tank data applicable to my favourite games and found out that Don Hill & Co had used a certain book for his tank research. I had to have it.

Therefore I am fortunate enough to have the English translation of "German Tanks of World War II" by Dr. F.M. von Senger und Etterlin

(Original title "Die deutschen Panzer 1926-45" (c) 1968 by J.F. Lehmanns Verlag, München.
My copy (c)Lionel Leventhal Ltd, 1969)

The nickname "Hezter" is used in the book as well as the English translation "Baiter" (page 31)

You are completely right about the PaK 39 L/48 although according to Dr von Senger und Etterlin there was a drawing No Bz 3471 dated 24th November 1944 which shows the Pz Kw 38(t) fitted with a 7.5 cm L/70 gun (the KwK 42 of the Panther). The author considered it unlikely that this idea left the drawing board.

Things that makes me confused are the following two snippets:

von Senger und Etterlin refers to the Reference order [for the Hetzer] 652/63 of 1st November 1944 but in the next sentence he says that the vehicle was in service from May 1944. Either the reference order is misquoted regarding year or possible the name "Hetzer" wasn't official until November.

The number produced during 1944 was 1577. Skoda produced 750 between Septebmer 1944 and May 1945.
Krupp was involved in installing the new (compared to Pz 38(t)) main armament during 1944.

A Pz Jg 38(d) (as in Deutsch - German) was planned and intended for service after 1945. Changes were to be another engine as well as either a t.5 cm KwK42 or a PaK L/70 in a rigid mounting.
There were obviously two varieties planned one (W 1806) with a rear mounted engine and one (W 1807) with the enginge mounted in the center of the vehicle.

Ah well... tank porn... those were the days.

Sorry for the rant. Back to waiting for BFTB.



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Post #: 41
RE: BFTB AAR: The Losheim Gap - 12/3/2008 8:56:14 PM   
HansBolter


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In case you were not aware. Frido von Senger und Etterlin also wrote a personal memoir titled Niether Hope Nor Fear.

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RE: BFTB AAR: The Losheim Gap - 12/4/2008 4:48:04 AM   
simovitch


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Situation just before sunset on December 18th:
Not much progress made today but my plan was to consolidate my gains while holding the bridges and probing to the west-northwest. You can see that the big points (33) come from destroying the enemy and not so much by investing St. Vith. I'm about 1/2 way there with 15.1/33.3 points completed for destroyed units.

I think the best way to do this is to start hammering the US units trying to escape the Schnee Eifel trap. I only have 1 more full day to pick up some objective points so tomorrow should be decisive.




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Post #: 43
RE: BFTB AAR: The Losheim Gap - 12/4/2008 3:45:26 PM   
Hub

 

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Thank you for posting this AAR - I can't wait to get this game.

Note to Panther/Matrix: "perimiter" should be spelled "perimeter"

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Post #: 44
RE: BFTB AAR: The Losheim Gap - 12/4/2008 6:09:09 PM   
simovitch


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Hub

Thank you for posting this AAR - I can't wait to get this game.

Note to Panther/Matrix: "perimiter" should be spelled "perimeter"

Thanks Hub, that my bad... my speling suks.

_____________________________

simovitch


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Post #: 45
RE: BFTB AAR: The Losheim Gap - 12/4/2008 10:53:12 PM   
Greup

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: HansBolter

In case you were not aware. Frido von Senger und Etterlin also wrote a personal memoir titled Niether Hope Nor Fear.


Also? With all respect I think you might be misinformed. From what I understand the book you refer to - his memoirs "Krieg in Europa" (War in Europe) which was published post-humously in English in 1963 as "Neither Fear nor Hope" - was the only book he wrote.

The book I referred to was written by his son Ferdinand Maria von Senger und Etterlin which also means that the English Wikipedia article on Fridolin v. Senger u. Etterlin is not correct (not suprisingly mixing similar German names up).

The German Wikipedia article on Ferdinand Maria von Senger und Etterlin is correct regarding the authorship of books as far as I can judge.

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RE: BFTB AAR: The Losheim Gap - 12/4/2008 10:55:13 PM   
Greup

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Hub

Thank you for posting this AAR - I can't wait to get this game.

Note to Panther/Matrix: "perimiter" should be spelled "perimeter"



...and Schonberg should be spelled Schönberg (like on the map).

(in reply to Hub)
Post #: 47
RE: BFTB AAR: The Losheim Gap - 12/4/2008 11:42:02 PM   
GoodGuy

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Greup

Therefore I am fortunate enough to have the English translation of "German Tanks of World War II" by Dr. F.M. von Senger und Etterlin

I have some of the compendiums/encyclopedias by Thomas L. Jentz/Hillary L Doyle.
Jentz checked out various tanks in museums, measured hulls, interiors, armaments and what not, plus he doesn't just copy from other authors/works, as he dug for original docs in the library of congress and the Bundesarchiv in Freiburg, Germany. Some of his books are byproducts as they feature material he discovered accidentally in these archives (like his book about deployment and tactics of tiger I + II). In these instances he comes up with numbers (tanks leaving the factories) but he doesn't display which tank reached what unit, especially after all the re-routing the Germans had going there - these parts are less helpful for researchers.
Despite these rather weak works, his technical details/drawings and findings regarding changes during production are top-notch.

quote:

The nickname "Hezter" is used in the book as well as the English translation "Baiter" (page 31)

I start to like that, as in German the word harrier usually translates to either "looter" or the German/middle-European bird's name ("Weihe", zool.).
I'd either use the word baiter or I'd take out the translation.

quote:

You are completely right about the PaK 39 L/48 although according to Dr von Senger und Etterlin there was a drawing No Bz 3471 dated 24th November 1944 which shows the Pz Kw 38(t) fitted with a 7.5 cm L/70 gun (the KwK 42 of the Panther).


By the way: The Panther's KwK 42 is in fact a modified 75mm PaK 42, that's why it had even more punch than the Tiger I's 88mm.

quote:

Things that makes me confused are the following two snippets:

von Senger und Etterlin refers to the Reference order [for the Hetzer] 652/63 of 1st November 1944 but in the next sentence he says that the vehicle was in service from May 1944. Either the reference order is misquoted regarding year or possible the name "Hetzer" wasn't official until November.

The number produced during 1944 was 1577. Skoda produced 750 between Septebmer 1944 and May 1945.
Krupp was involved in installing the new (compared to Pz 38(t)) main armament during 1944.

Production of the Hetzer "commenced in April 1944 at BMM and was taken up by Skoda in September 1944". (page 53, "Encyclopedia of German Tanks of World War Two" by Peter Chamberlain and Hillary L. Doyle - Technical Editor Thomas L. Jentz).

The Germans renamed the Czech company CKD (which built the LT-35/LT-38) to BMM ("Böhmisch-Mährische-Maschinenfabrik") in 1939, after they had sacked Czechoslovakia in March 1939.

Senger was either not aware of the fact that 2 different plants were producing the Pz35/38(t) (CKD produced at least around 20% of the Pz35(t) according to Jentz) and of the relocation of the production later on, or he didn't think it was worth mentioning CKD, due to their small share of the output.

quote:

A Pz Jg 38(d) (as in Deutsch - German) was planned and intended for service after 1945. Changes were to be another engine as well as either a t.5 cm KwK42 or a PaK L/70 in a rigid mounting.
May 1945 was the deadline "for change over to rigid mounting of the Pak 39/1 and 105mm StuH42 (105 Assault Howitzer)", according to Jentz.

quote:

Ah well... tank porn... those were the days.

Yeah it is tank porn, hehe ok sorry Simo go ahead

< Message edited by GoodGuy -- 12/4/2008 11:58:41 PM >


_____________________________

"Aw Nuts"
General Anthony McAuliffe
December 22nd, 1944
Bastogne

---
"I've always felt that the AA (Alied Assault engine) had the potential to be [....] big."
Tim Stone
8th of August, 2006

(in reply to Greup)
Post #: 48
RE: BFTB AAR: The Losheim Gap - 12/4/2008 11:42:28 PM   
simovitch


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... and Steinebrück, and Prümmerberg...

some levels of the UI will not recognize umlauts and such. I'll take a look and fix these up if possible.

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simovitch


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Post #: 49
RE: BFTB AAR: The Losheim Gap - 12/4/2008 11:55:17 PM   
GoodGuy

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: simovitch

... and Steinebrück, and Prümmerberg...

some levels of the UI will not recognize umlauts and such. I'll take a look and fix these up if possible.


Ha, i wanted to mention that too, but Greup was faster!
The official German rules of grammar allow for replacing "ö" with "oe", "ü" with "ue" and "ä" with "ae". You might want to consider using these replacements.

_____________________________

"Aw Nuts"
General Anthony McAuliffe
December 22nd, 1944
Bastogne

---
"I've always felt that the AA (Alied Assault engine) had the potential to be [....] big."
Tim Stone
8th of August, 2006

(in reply to simovitch)
Post #: 50
RE: BFTB AAR: The Losheim Gap - 12/5/2008 1:58:01 AM   
simovitch


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quote:

ORIGINAL: GoodGuy

quote:

ORIGINAL: simovitch

... and Steinebrück, and Prümmerberg...

some levels of the UI will not recognize umlauts and such. I'll take a look and fix these up if possible.


Ha, i wanted to mention that too, but Greup was faster!
The official German rules of grammar allow for replacing "ö" with "oe", "ü" with "ue" and "ä" with "ae". You might want to consider using these replacements.

Sehr gut, vielen dank.

_____________________________

simovitch


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RE: BFTB AAR: The Losheim Gap - 12/5/2008 4:25:30 AM   
GoodGuy

 

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Gern geschehen. ("you're welcome") Or "bitte sehr" ("here you are" / "you're welcome").
Ok 'nuff German lessons

< Message edited by GoodGuy -- 12/5/2008 4:26:38 AM >


_____________________________

"Aw Nuts"
General Anthony McAuliffe
December 22nd, 1944
Bastogne

---
"I've always felt that the AA (Alied Assault engine) had the potential to be [....] big."
Tim Stone
8th of August, 2006

(in reply to simovitch)
Post #: 52
RE: BFTB AAR: The Losheim Gap - 12/5/2008 5:31:26 AM   
Fallschirmjager


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What happened to the snow textures?


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RE: BFTB AAR: The Losheim Gap - 12/5/2008 11:41:57 AM   
Arjuna


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It wasn't snowing on Day 1.

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Post #: 54
RE: BFTB AAR: The Losheim Gap - 12/6/2008 10:19:01 AM   
Greup

 

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quote:

Senger was either not aware of the fact that 2 different plants were producing the Pz35/38(t) (CKD produced at least around 20% of the Pz35(t) according to Jentz) and of the relocation of the production later on, or he didn't think it was worth mentioning CKD, due to their small share of the output.


I'll supply the entire quote about production which makes it clear he knew about different production sites although he uses the Böhmisch-Mährisch company name:

quote:

Construction of the chassis and the assembly were carried out by Böhmisch-Mährisch and by Skoda of Königgrätz, while the armour plate was supplied by Poldihütte of Komotau, Böhmisch-Mährisch, Linke-Hoffmann-Werke of Breslau and Skoda of Pilsen. A total of 1577 vehicles were produced during 1944, and Skoda turned out 750 between September 1944 and May 1945. Krupp also participated in the production programme during 1944, being responsible ofr the installation of new main armament.



(Btw,I have the very nice Chamberlain book as well).





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Post #: 55
RE: BFTB AAR: The Losheim Gap - 12/6/2008 3:13:16 PM   
simovitch


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December 19th, late morning:
The advance elements of the Führer Begleit Brigade have arrived, and I have ordered these to advance to Wallerode northeast of St Vith in order to at least deny the US those VP's. I will set low aggro and the "bypass" SOP so that they don't get sidetracked by the presence of any enemy on the way.

The remaining armored elements of the FBB can help with the mop up when they arrive, or if the road to St. Vith clears up I may send them there and make a try for the town.




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Post #: 56
RE: BFTB AAR: The Losheim Gap - 12/7/2008 2:55:16 AM   
simovitch


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Late afternoon, December 19th:
The FBB has stalled on the road to St. Vith and under heavy bombardment. Hopefully they can reach Wallerode during the night without too many casualties. I should be able to get the max VP for casualties, but it looks like I will need to deny the US the occupation points for the St Vith Perimeter to get that decisive Victory.




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Post #: 57
RE: BFTB AAR: The Losheim Gap - 12/9/2008 2:55:19 AM   
simovitch


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Well, here it is - a German decisive victory.

The advance FBB contingent made it to Wallerode during the night while the remaining mechanized units wreaked some havoc along the Auw - Bleialf Road. The US suffered heavily in AFV's and Men including 31 units surrendering. The US did put up a tough fight in front of St. Vith and I was getting a fair beating by the 7th Armored's drive to Steinebrück, which changed hands a few times in the early morning hours of the 20th.

I fixed several errors in the scenario including the ones pointed out on this forum, and I may do a little bit more tweaking of the objectives but overall this one is a done deal. I was very happy with the sketchy availability of the German Corps artillery, reflecting the historical situation nicely. Fuel was never a real problem (but that changes for the Germans in the later scenarios).

Hope you all enjoyed this one. There are a few other new features I may showcase in another AAR when the next build comes out. For now it's back to the Reference Manual.




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simovitch


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Post #: 58
RE: BFTB AAR: The Losheim Gap - 12/9/2008 3:52:23 PM   
Helpless


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Thanks for the AAR, simovitch! Game looks very sweet..

Couple minor asks..

- Would it be possible to provide the list of destroyed/lost equipment for every side when the game ends? This would add some chrome to the game, i.e. depending on side you play, it gives much more satisfaction to know that there was PzKw-VI destroyed and not just "some" AFV.

- Also would be good to have an access to the list of combined losses of friendly forces during the game. Sometimes to get this info I need to either remember the total amount of equipment and make math during the game play, or usually save and then just surrender with maximum zoom

- As I see, in BFTB as in COTA or HTTR, primed info on bridges is available as a free intel. Wouldn't it be more historical to give that info in the same way we get info on enemy units? That would make a bridge securing much more careful, thus slowing down the bridge crossing, as it was in RL.



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WITE/WITW/WITE-2 Development

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Post #: 59
RE: BFTB AAR: The Losheim Gap - 12/9/2008 10:23:57 PM   
Arjuna


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Helpless
- As I see, in BFTB as in COTA or HTTR, primed info on bridges is available as a free intel. Wouldn't it be more historical to give that info in the same way we get info on enemy units? That would make a bridge securing much more careful, thus slowing down the bridge crossing, as it was in RL.

Good idea. We would need a set of move tables for each command ( currently one per side ) and an "actual" set with the real data.
This, however, would require us to triple the number of moveTables and the RAM we use for them and increase the processing to update them.

TT3671 - AI - Intel on Bridges - Add Crossings to the Intel system - Add Additional MoveTables

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