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War Over The Middle East - 11/17/2008 10:46:53 AM   
JudgeDredd


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Anyone know if this is a digital download or not?

I'm sure I tried to buy an HPS game before and it was a disk and quite expensive for shipping to the UK...sounds like a game I'd love to try.
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RE: War Over The Middle East - 11/17/2008 11:06:01 AM   
JudgeDredd


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Nevermind...just found out it's another $16 shipping.

Simply can't afford it at the moment, especially seeing as the $ is strong against the £ again.. Pity as it's one thing that stops me buying HPS games. I know you can get them through NWS, but there's still shipping involved.

I'd like HPS to get their fingers out and provide DD for non-US citezens...I'd buy so many more of their games.

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RE: War Over The Middle East - 11/17/2008 11:27:28 AM   
Adam Parker


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I passed your feedback on Judge.

Only a few days ago I touched base with them about the same thing.

Digital Download is not only cheaper, it really helps the impulse buyer too. Games Now! <thumps the table>

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RE: War Over The Middle East - 11/17/2008 11:50:08 AM   
JudgeDredd


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Well, I purchased it through NWS in the end. $32.99 + $9.99 shipping - $42.98 = £28.92

Looking forward to it...I always wanted the War over Vietnam one but was put off with some reviews and the cost/shipping thing.

As for HPS...they would make a pretty packet out of impulse buys if they had DD...I'm sure of it.

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RE: War Over The Middle East - 11/17/2008 11:58:33 AM   
Grell

 

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Hi JD,

I agree it's a pain, DD would be so nice.

Regards,

Grell

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RE: War Over The Middle East - 11/17/2008 12:42:49 PM   
Terminus


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Definitely.

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RE: War Over The Middle East - 11/17/2008 2:10:34 PM   
Perturabo


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I considered buying PoA2 some time ago. I didn't buy it because I see no point in paying and waiting for the shipping if there's no printed manual - 16$ should cover the costs of shipping even with a 300+ page manual.


< Message edited by Perturabo -- 11/17/2008 2:12:28 PM >


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RE: War Over The Middle East - 11/20/2008 4:20:27 AM   
TonyAAA


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I buy all my HPS (and most other) games here.  A lot cheaper than going through the mfr's websites.

Just got my copy of War Over the Mideast yesterday. It's pretty good. The scenarios span from 1950s to 2000s.

I didn't like the interface changes from War Over Vietnam at first, but once you get used to it, they become second nature.

Be aware that this game has that PIA copy protection that requires the CD to be in the drive to play. Hopefully someone will make a no-cd patch for it.



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RE: War Over The Middle East - 11/20/2008 5:22:59 AM   
Neilster


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quote:

ORIGINAL: JudgeDredd

Anyone know if this is a digital download or not?

I'm sure I tried to buy an HPS game before and it was a disk and quite expensive for shipping to the UK...sounds like a game I'd love to try.

Game? It's called the real world!

Cheers, Neilster

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RE: War Over The Middle East - 11/20/2008 6:42:15 AM   
06 Maestro


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I just bought my first HPS game; Spanish Civil War last week (still in the mail-10 bucks shipping). I was surprised they did not have a download option for their games-had to stop the sale and go back to double check if I had missed something.

It's a new title that had some very special help in its development. I am confident it will be worth the inconvenience of snail mail, and the shipping fees.

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RE: War Over The Middle East - 11/20/2008 10:16:43 AM   
TonyAAA


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After playing a few scenarios over the last few hours, I'd like to make some observations on War over the Mideast.

First, it despite the interface changes, it is basically War Over Vietnam with a very few changes/improvements.

The newer aircraft types in later scenarios have fire-and-forget weapons, but lack things a more modern setting (IMO) should have, like control over EMCON.

You can fly lower/NOE on some types, but there's no option to turn off the radar etc to decrease detectability---no way to fly "stealthy." Plane X at altitude Y seems to be always detected at the same range from radar Z.

There are jamming craft, but then they were also present in WoV.

Also, selecting fast aircraft speed will automatically jettison any fuel tanks with no warning/option to cancel this. This can make some scenarios un-winnable as you can't land + re-equip fuel tanks within the mission time limits. So make sure to carefully monitor your speed changes on any outbound strike packages.

It also appears that while in a scenario you can change things like flight paths, you don't seem to have any option to mount different weapons/pods to the hardpoints before takeoff. All aircraft are only equipped with whatever the scenario designer specified.


These nit-picks aside, it's a fun, light game that anyone who liked WoV will enjoy.

Imagine an aircraft-only version of Jane's Fleet Command based in the Middle-East and that's pretty much this game.

It would be interesting if someone made a few 90's era Desert Storm + Shield scenarios for it.
Things like hunting Scuds, enforcing no-fly zones, etc all under strict RoE.

Maybe even a modern Isreali/Allied attack on Iran's nuke program....


< Message edited by Tony_A -- 11/20/2008 10:55:10 AM >

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RE: War Over The Middle East - 11/20/2008 11:58:22 AM   
JudgeDredd


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Would be nice to see an option to turn off radar...quite crucial in modern warfare for strike forces!

Are jammers always available? Is there limited availability??

Looking forward to this...I didn't get War over Vietnam because of cost (postage mostly....being Scottish I hate wasting money!)

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RE: War Over The Middle East - 11/20/2008 12:33:19 PM   
TonyAAA


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quote:

ORIGINAL: JudgeDredd

Would be nice to see an option to turn off radar...quite crucial in modern warfare for strike forces!

Are jammers always available? Is there limited availability??

Looking forward to this...I didn't get War over Vietnam because of cost (postage mostly....being Scottish I hate wasting money!)


I haven't played even 1/2 the scenarios, so I've no idea if they're always available. They aren't on the Arab sides, or any of the 1950's ones I've played (but I'm guessing that's period correct for those scenarios--either they didn't exist, or that side didn't have them in real life at that time)

One of the more interesting things is that certain jamming craft (like the EA6 Prowler) are far more effective at jamming out the sides at ~90 degrees, than out the front + rear aspects. So it can be a challenge to keep the effective "cones" always pointed towards the enemy radar/planes in most need of music.

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RE: War Over The Middle East - 11/20/2008 10:55:41 PM   
DicedT

 

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Anyone want to try a multiplayer scenario?

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RE: War Over The Middle East - 11/21/2008 11:21:13 AM   
E

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Tony_A

It also appears that while in a scenario you can change things like flight paths, you don't seem to have any option to mount different weapons/pods to the hardpoints before takeoff. All aircraft are only equipped with whatever the scenario designer specified.


So no improvements to the scenario editor? (Which was my gripe with WoV... mission planning is at least half the point for Vietnam Air Warfare, and yet there was no "mission editor/planner," just an un-user-friendly scenario editor.)

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RE: War Over The Middle East - 11/21/2008 11:25:20 AM   
JudgeDredd


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mmm...starting to feel less enthused.

I had hoped they had made some dramatic changes to the system from War over Vietnam. It was disappointing to read that yu had very little control over the scenarios themselves....I'm even more disappointed that they didn't change this for the new version.

I sometimes wonder what devs do in between versions!

Oh well...I bought it. I was excited. And now I'm £30 lighter and less enthusiastic than I was yesterday.

You'd think I'd learn!!

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RE: War Over The Middle East - 11/21/2008 6:14:11 PM   
Brigz


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HPS keeps a very tight lock on their games and the ability to mod them. I am most interested in their Civil War games and it used to be that you could mod everything... map, OOB, parameter data....everything. But now they have locked up the maps and OOB files making the games nearly un-modable. The only thing you can do is create new scenarios using their hard wired data and tweek the parameter data. They do this, of course, so that only they can release expansions to their games. This is one of the main reasons I don't buy many of their games anymore. I rate ability to mod at the top of my list when I contemplate buying a game.

However, having said that, I will give HPS credit for being one of the best companies when it comes to maintianing and updated their games. They have good customer support. I'd certainly fire an email at them and request any features you'd like to see changed in future updates or releases. They just might listen.

I know what you mean Judge. It's a big let down when you buy a game you are excited about only to discover it is less than what you hoped for. That's why I've severely reduced my computer game purchases and have gone back to board gaming. At least with a "paper" game you can change anything you want if you aren't satisfied.

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RE: War Over The Middle East - 11/21/2008 8:43:40 PM   
Perturabo


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Yeah. I remember reading about that when I was reading about PoA2. One more reason why I wouldn't buy their games.

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RE: War Over The Middle East - 11/21/2008 9:45:20 PM   
TonyAAA


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quote:

ORIGINAL: E

quote:

ORIGINAL: Tony_A

It also appears that while in a scenario you can change things like flight paths, you don't seem to have any option to mount different weapons/pods to the hardpoints before takeoff. All aircraft are only equipped with whatever the scenario designer specified.


So no improvements to the scenario editor? (Which was my gripe with WoV... mission planning is at least half the point for Vietnam Air Warfare, and yet there was no "mission editor/planner," just an un-user-friendly scenario editor.)



Sorry if I wasn't clear. While creating a scenario, you have a choice of different weapon/fuel tank/etc configurations for most aircraft.

However, when playing a scenario, the only load you get for each plane is whatever the scenario designer picked---with no way for the player to change it.

As far as "mission planning," basically all you can do is pause the game + assign flight paths and the like in a way similar to WoV. FWIW, there are time-on-target/hold options.







< Message edited by Tony_A -- 11/21/2008 9:46:37 PM >

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RE: War Over The Middle East - 11/21/2008 11:28:10 PM   
JudgeDredd


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Tony_A

quote:

ORIGINAL: E

quote:

ORIGINAL: Tony_A

It also appears that while in a scenario you can change things like flight paths, you don't seem to have any option to mount different weapons/pods to the hardpoints before takeoff. All aircraft are only equipped with whatever the scenario designer specified.


So no improvements to the scenario editor? (Which was my gripe with WoV... mission planning is at least half the point for Vietnam Air Warfare, and yet there was no "mission editor/planner," just an un-user-friendly scenario editor.)



Sorry if I wasn't clear. While creating a scenario, you have a choice of different weapon/fuel tank/etc configurations for most aircraft.

However, when playing a scenario, the only load you get for each plane is whatever the scenario designer picked---with no way for the player to change it.

As far as "mission planning," basically all you can do is pause the game + assign flight paths and the like in a way similar to WoV. FWIW, there are time-on-target/hold options.

Bugger...sounds even worse than I thought!

I guess I'll just have to swallow and take the hit. I won't learn my lesson (as time has proven) but god damn it!!! They were told these things were missing in WoV!! I remember reading reviews about it and it was one of the reasons for not buying...too little to do during missions!! The whole premise of the game (in my eyes) is giving the user stuff to do...take that away and what do you have???

I am pissed now, but bugger it. The last HPS game I buy without a review. Silly me just "thought" they would've read the reviews from WoV and "must have" changed the game and made those basic elementary improvements!

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RE: War Over The Middle East - 11/22/2008 6:56:06 PM   
rahamy

 

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I'm not in the habit of hijacking other companies forums, so I'd ask that any replies be directed over to the Wargamer - http://www.wargamer.com/forums/tm.aspx?m=317411

I'm astounded that anyone can say "very few" changes have been made...here's a listing of what was done between WOV & WOM:

Changes for War Over The Mideast 1.0
- Added new indicator "+" for loads indicating full load.
- Added new Recon Pod ordnance type.
- Added Runway Penetrating Bombs.
- Added "B" hotkey to Scenario Editor for setting home airbase of
selected flight.
- Added new Stand-Off-Jammer (SOJ) ordnance type.
- Added ability for map to have labels that are displayed with names.
- Added new Rules-of-Engagement feature (see Scenario Editor, Header Menu,
and Main Program, Status Menu).
- Added ability to establish No-Earlier-Than and No-Later-Than dates
for ordnance.
- Added ability for Cargo ordnance to be targetted against Location
targets.
- Added on-map animation for dogfight in progress.
- Added ability to zoom map in and out using mouse wheel.
- Added display of home base in alternate (right-click) flight information.
- Added airbase graphical display in the Scenario Editor and Main Program
(see Add Air Base Dialog in Scenario Editor and Air Bases Dialog in
Main Program).
- Added ability to specify mission types for flights (see Mission Type
in Users Manual and Set Mission command in Main Program and Scenario
Editor).
- Added ability to specify a Hold Order which causes a flight to remain
in a certain location for a specified amount of time before continuing.
- Added airbase recon capability which gives visual representation of
air base status (see Status menu in Main Program).
- Added ability to display clock time in flight segments plus the option
of showing all segment values (see Segments option under Settings menu).
- Added new Increase Speed and Decrease Speed orders (see Order Menu
in Scenario Editor and Main Program).
- Added Establish Time-on-Target command so that the desired Time-on-Target
can be established for the selected flight (see Command Menu in
Scenario Editor and Main Program).
- Added a log of all on-screen messages that can be viewed using the
"Mission Log" feature of the Status Menu.
- Added the new feature of "No-Fly-Zones" (see Scenario Editor manual and
Users Manual).
- Added new "Tail Radar" feature that allows an aircraft to have
tail-facing search radar.
- Added Submunition ordnance type and Area Targets. Non-submunition
ordnance against area targets has reduced effect.
- Added Penetrating ordnance type and Hard Targets. Non-penetrating
ordnance against hard targets has greatly reduced effect.
- Added Command Nodes that link various resources together and effects
associated with those nodes (see Scenario Editor, Main Program, and
Users Manual).
- Added a "Fuel Usable" flag to Tanker aircraft to signify that they use
their own fuel capacity for refueling.
- Added Fuel storage to air bases which limits the ability of the air base
to refuel aircraft at the base.
- Converted air base status into three parameters: runway, ramp, and
buildings. Each can be targeted and doing so has separate effects
on air base functionality.
- Added optional fuel and supply attributes plus Node Links to Targets.
This is used in the ATO feature.
- Added optional elevation data to base map which has the effect of
masking radar of ground sites relative to Flying Low aircraft.
- Added the ability to define generic orders in the Scenario Editor which
can be used to generate orders for any number of flights.
- Programmed new Mission Packages which allow flights to be created based
on predefined Mission Package templates specifying the number, type, and
loads for a certain number of flights of a specified size.
- Added ability to move an on-map site such as Radar Site, Missile Site,
or Air Base in the Scenario Editor, by clicking on the site with the
left mouse button and then right-clicking on the new location while
holding down the Control (Ctrl) key. No flight can be selected when
this is done.
- Added ability to show ground radar and ground weapon range separately.
- Programmed new Unknown attribute for Radar Sites so they are not
automatically visible on the map.
- Added ASW attribute for aircraft so they can be used to detected
underwater submarines.
- Added ASW attribute to ordnance so it can be fired at underwater
submarines.
- Defined new Satellite class so that satellites can be defined in the
database.
- Added new Timed Arrival feature so that flights can appear during the
middle of a scenario based on a specified time.
- Added new Civilian "target" for representing non-combatant civilians.
- Change so that SAM sites with radar knocked out cannot fire optically.
- Added ability to flag a Radar Site as ELINT for use in detection.
- Added ability to define missile sites and air bases as hard.
- Change so that Large Airplanes count 4x and Large Helicopters count 2x
for airbase capacity.
- Added ability for a Missile Site to have a Victory Factor.
- Change so that Jamming aircraft also jam radar sites.
- Added new Prioritized Target List feature in Scenario Editor and the
ability to use that in the ATO Editor for planning purposes.
- Added the ability for multiplayer against the A/I (see New Scenario
Dialog in Main Program Help File).
- Added the ability to control which names are drawn on map.
- Added a new feature on Delivery Profiles (see the Users Manual for
details).
- Added "Can Fire High" ordnance attribute that allows non-high altitude
aircraft and SAM sites to fire at high-flying aircraft.
- Change so that helicopters can only be refueled by prop aircraft and
other helicopters.
- Change so that airbases, notably carriers, can be designated unknown and
so must be spotted before they are visible.
- Added Cyber Pod load type that can be carried on aircraft (see
Specialized Features in Users Manual).
- Split refueling and rearming parameters so that they can now be
specified individually per side.
- (Editor) Added new toolbar buttons for viewing on-map entities.

---------------------------

And the series continues, and will continue to be adjusted...HPS/Tiller has a long history of supporting games after they are released for years, and continuing to improve them as time marches on - free of charge.

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RE: War Over The Middle East - 11/22/2008 8:01:37 PM   
JudgeDredd


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Rahamy

Whilst I appreciate that, according to your list, there have been alot of changes, can you not see why I am a little less enthusiastic about taking ownership of the game??

No changing of loadouts was one of the issues of WoV that stopped me getting that, along with the other big "apparent" missing feature of adjusting the mission as it unfolds...iow, there seems very little to do once you set the mission on it's way...that is to say, you become a passenger. Both of these features affected my decision to buy WoV and, tbh, if I had known they were still not available, I wouldn't have forked out the money.

However....I have and so I will say no more until I get and play the game. I'm just more than a little disappointed with what I've read and your post has not really thwarted any of those feelings.

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RE: War Over The Middle East - 11/22/2008 9:07:05 PM   
TonyAAA


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quote:

ORIGINAL: JudgeDredd

Rahamy

Whilst I appreciate that, according to your list, there have been alot of changes, can you not see why I am a little less enthusiastic about taking ownership of the game??

No changing of loadouts was one of the issues of WoV that stopped me getting that, along with the other big "apparent" missing feature of adjusting the mission as it unfolds...iow, there seems very little to do once you set the mission on it's way...that is to say, you become a passenger. Both of these features affected my decision to buy WoV and, tbh, if I had known they were still not available, I wouldn't have forked out the money.

However....I have and so I will say no more until I get and play the game. I'm just more than a little disappointed with what I've read and your post has not really thwarted any of those feelings.



As the person who stated "a very few changes" I stand by that comment.

Take a close look at that list and compare it to the changes made any of Matrix's Harpoon patches to see what I mean.

Realize that this isn't a patch, it's sold as a completely new game.

WoV and WoM are still (IMO) "light" games broadly comparable to Jane's Fleet Command sans ship control. Anyone thinking that they're going to see "Harpoon in the Mideast" will be severely disappointed.

That said, they are fun, and have lots of options for creating scenarios, even scenarios linked into a campaign. Just don't expect a huge amount of options when it comes to actually playing those scenarios. In some of them, you almost can set the flight-plans and options, start the scenario, and press----nothing while it plays out to finish.



I liked WoV and expected this to be a re-skinned, middle-eastern version & scenarios with whatever changes necessary to accomplish that. For the most part, that's exactly what it is. I don't regret my purchase at all.

< Message edited by Tony_A -- 11/22/2008 9:10:32 PM >

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RE: War Over The Middle East - 11/22/2008 9:30:48 PM   
JudgeDredd


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Like I said...I'll reserve my comments now until I play it.

What I have in my mind now may be completely different to how it plays out...but your comment
quote:

In some of them, you almost can set the flight-plans and options, start the scenario, and press----nothing while it plays out to finish.

does disturb me slightly though. I fully expected the engine to afford the user massive control over the air war!

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RE: War Over The Middle East - 11/22/2008 11:39:16 PM   
mllange

 

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Not having purchased or played WOV, how does this game compare with the gameplay of the Harpoon series?  Harpoon is frustrating when it comes to the Air Combat feature set, particularly when it comes to outfitting and establishing a complete strike and coordinating all of the elements.  Is series this any different in this respect?

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Harpoon - 11/23/2008 12:22:37 AM   
hermanhum


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Tony_A

As the person who stated "a very few changes" I stand by that comment.

Take a close look at that list and compare it to the changes made any of Matrix's Harpoon patches to see what I mean.

Most of the changes via the Harpoon patches are primarily 'fluff', IMO. Either they fix things that the developers broke in previous patches or else they are introducing redundant new features that are already possible in the game. Very little gets added. The long list is just smoke in mirrors.

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RE: War Over The Middle East - 11/25/2008 12:39:49 AM   
E

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Tony_A

quote:

ORIGINAL: E

quote:

ORIGINAL: Tony_A

It also appears that while in a scenario you can change things like flight paths, you don't seem to have any option to mount different weapons/pods to the hardpoints before takeoff. All aircraft are only equipped with whatever the scenario designer specified.


So no improvements to the scenario editor? (Which was my gripe with WoV... mission planning is at least half the point for Vietnam Air Warfare, and yet there was no "mission editor/planner," just an un-user-friendly scenario editor.)


Sorry if I wasn't clear. While creating a scenario, you have a choice of different weapon/fuel tank/etc configurations for most aircraft.

However, when playing a scenario, the only load you get for each plane is whatever the scenario designer picked---with no way for the player to change it.

As far as "mission planning," basically all you can do is pause the game + assign flight paths and the like in a way similar to WoV. FWIW, there are time-on-target/hold options.


Actually, you were very clear for my question! ...the scenario editor is still not an in-game mission planner, and it sounds no more user friendly than in Wings Over Vietnam. (I still think mission planning is the real point of a game of this nature/scale).

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Post #: 27
RE: War Over The Middle East - 11/25/2008 2:16:20 AM   
TonyAAA


Posts: 140
Joined: 2/7/2008
From: Arlington, TX
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: E

quote:

ORIGINAL: Tony_A

quote:

ORIGINAL: E

quote:

ORIGINAL: Tony_A

It also appears that while in a scenario you can change things like flight paths, you don't seem to have any option to mount different weapons/pods to the hardpoints before takeoff. All aircraft are only equipped with whatever the scenario designer specified.


So no improvements to the scenario editor? (Which was my gripe with WoV... mission planning is at least half the point for Vietnam Air Warfare, and yet there was no "mission editor/planner," just an un-user-friendly scenario editor.)


Sorry if I wasn't clear. While creating a scenario, you have a choice of different weapon/fuel tank/etc configurations for most aircraft.

However, when playing a scenario, the only load you get for each plane is whatever the scenario designer picked---with no way for the player to change it.

As far as "mission planning," basically all you can do is pause the game + assign flight paths and the like in a way similar to WoV. FWIW, there are time-on-target/hold options.


Actually, you were very clear for my question! ...the scenario editor is still not an in-game mission planner, and it sounds no more user friendly than in Wings Over Vietnam. (I still think mission planning is the real point of a game of this nature/scale).



Agreed. That is my biggest beef with the game.

In something like Harpoon, you have the option of deciding exactly how (what assets, how they are equipped, etc) to attack a target. In WoM that's not the case.

For example, in the 1981 scenario called "Opera," you must attack the Iraqi nuclear facility with flights of F-16s carrying Mk-84s, and F-15s flying air cover. You can't change any of this other than flight paths.

While this load-out is historically accurate, so what? The whole point of wargaming is to try (your own) different methods and ideas within any given scenario----not to sit back and passively watch how history played out.

If I wish to try just about anything different I'll have to go into the scenario editor and/or crate a new scenario.

IMO, these options should exist at the player's fingertips, not just the scenario designer's.

< Message edited by Tony_A -- 11/25/2008 2:22:12 AM >

(in reply to E)
Post #: 28
RE: War Over The Middle East - 11/28/2008 11:38:28 AM   
JudgeDredd


Posts: 8564
Joined: 11/14/2003
From: Scotland
Status: offline
Well I only played the tutorial last night and I quite liked it. Very little happened, but I enjoyed the bits I had to do.

We'll see. I enjoyed last night and will give one of the other missions as go tonight

I was surprised though...in the tutorial, the fighters with AMRAAM installed had less "distance" vision than the mud movers?? It was to do with height...I had them both up high. The Yellow "cone" out of the mud movers had MUCH more distance than the Air Superiority ones. They were different kinds of F-15 (C and i I think), but I couldn't see anything in the loadout which made me think "That's why!!!"

Seems to me, the Air Superiority ones should've had the longer range radar??? no??

(in reply to TonyAAA)
Post #: 29
RE: War Over The Middle East - 11/28/2008 4:15:57 PM   
TonyAAA


Posts: 140
Joined: 2/7/2008
From: Arlington, TX
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: JudgeDredd

Well I only played the tutorial last night and I quite liked it. Very little happened, but I enjoyed the bits I had to do.

We'll see. I enjoyed last night and will give one of the other missions as go tonight

I was surprised though...in the tutorial, the fighters with AMRAAM installed had less "distance" vision than the mud movers?? It was to do with height...I had them both up high. The Yellow "cone" out of the mud movers had MUCH more distance than the Air Superiority ones. They were different kinds of F-15 (C and i I think), but I couldn't see anything in the loadout which made me think "That's why!!!"

Seems to me, the Air Superiority ones should've had the longer range radar??? no??


The Air superiority ones are F-15C "Baz" models that first entered service in 1981. APG-63 radar.

The F-15I is much newer (entered service in around 1998) and is far more advanced--basically a single-seat export version of the F-15E. APG-70 radar.

(in reply to JudgeDredd)
Post #: 30
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