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PP bug in 1.04

 
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PP bug in 1.04 - 11/11/2008 8:59:06 PM   
bresh

 

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Im guessing this is also the case in 1.03.

Looks like some oversight.
Anyway it seems that the "shared" loss/gain of pps, is buggy.
Nation A lends nation B corps.

If a army contains only 1 nations forces,say A-corps even when lend, it should be the only MP gaining/loosing the pps.

I notiched in a pbm game, my ally lend me a corps, our mutal enemy attacked it since it was solo and won.
We then both lost 1 pp ??


PP sharing should only happen when forces combine.

Kind Regards
Bresh


< Message edited by bresh -- 11/11/2008 9:00:54 PM >
Post #: 1
RE: PP bug in 1.04 - 11/11/2008 9:00:47 PM   
Marshall Ellis


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Huh?
Do you have a save of this?



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Outflank Strategy War Games



(in reply to bresh)
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RE: PP bug in 1.04 - 11/11/2008 9:01:44 PM   
bresh

 

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I have now send you my savegame.

Regards
Bresh

< Message edited by bresh -- 11/11/2008 9:11:22 PM >

(in reply to Marshall Ellis)
Post #: 3
RE: PP bug in 1.04 - 1/17/2009 9:35:32 AM   
eske

 

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I think you are wrong, bresh.

Lending IS combined movement, so owner always gains/loses PP for his corps.
No matter who he lends them to.

This is NOT lending as in the peacecondition !

IMHO !

/eske

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(in reply to bresh)
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RE: PP bug in 1.04 - 1/17/2009 2:54:50 PM   
NeverMan

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: eske

I think you are wrong, bresh.

Lending IS combined movement, so owner always gains/loses PP for his corps.
No matter who he lends them to.

This is NOT lending as in the peacecondition !

IMHO !

/eske


You mean owner = original owner, then yes. I think this terminology is confusing however, it might be more appropriate to say who's corps it is.

Lending is attempting (albeit poorly) to emulate combined movement. Only nations who have corps present should lose PP.


< Message edited by NeverMan -- 1/17/2009 7:24:51 PM >

(in reply to eske)
Post #: 5
RE: PP bug in 1.04 - 1/17/2009 4:36:17 PM   
ndrose

 

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I think everyone is saying the same thing about what should be the case here: only the original owner should gain/lose PPs. However, I have verified that the game actually treats it as if both MPs have units present, and awards/deducts PPs for BOTH. This is the case both for corps and fleets.

Can Marshall confirm that this is a bug and not intended behavior?

(in reply to NeverMan)
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RE: PP bug in 1.04 - 1/17/2009 11:40:32 PM   
bresh

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: eske

I think you are wrong, bresh.

Lending IS combined movement, so owner always gains/loses PP for his corps.
No matter who he lends them to.

This is NOT lending as in the peacecondition !

IMHO !

/eske


Eske you say the same thing as me so I dont see your problem ? And there is no lend corps as peace conditions in EIANW.

And its rather logic.
In EIA with combined movement only forces participating in a battle gained/lost PP.
So if 2 nations combined movement and had 3 battles, 1 joined, and 1 each. Each nation only gained/Lost PPs where he had forces present.
Currently(1.04) the game calculates gain/loss PPs to the controller, even if only forces present are his allies.

Regards
Bresh


< Message edited by bresh -- 1/17/2009 11:53:10 PM >

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RE: PP bug in 1.04 - 1/18/2009 2:39:14 PM   
eske

 

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Bresh

Sry if I read your post wrong, but glad we agree

/eske

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RE: PP bug in 1.04 - 1/18/2009 10:13:32 PM   
borner


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OK, I am lost. if Charles - 6 corps and Nappy - 6 corps fight a battle, and Charles commands 1 Prussian corps:

In the old game Prussia would, if they won, gain 3PP +1 for Nappy, loose 1 and an aditional -1. I had always assumed the same here, as why the heck would you have a reason to change that? (EiH "enhncement")

So, Am I missing something, what is the current system?

(in reply to eske)
Post #: 9
RE: PP bug in 1.04 - 1/18/2009 11:50:00 PM   
ndrose

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: borner

OK, I am lost. if Charles - 6 corps and Nappy - 6 corps fight a battle, and Charles commands 1 Prussian corps:

In the old game Prussia would, if they won, gain 3PP +1 for Nappy, loose 1 and an aditional -1. I had always assumed the same here, as why the heck would you have a reason to change that? (EiH "enhncement")

So, Am I missing something, what is the current system?


Borner,

I'm not entirely sure whether the EiANW system is the same in the case you mention as the EiA system (I think there was some discussion of this in another thread, but I don't remember what the upshot was). But you're talking about a case in which both allies actually have corps in the battle. Both in that case should gain/lose PPs (though how many I believe was the subject of disagreement).

The case we were discussing here, though, is a little different, and applies only to EiANW because of the lend-unit system.

In EiA, you just combined movement, and you could supply your ally's corps but they were still his corps. In EiANW, we have lending instead. This means if, for instance, Prussian corps are moving through Austria, they will probably be lent to Austria just for purposes of supply.

Now, if a stack of 6 Prussian corps lent to Austria (with NO Austrian corps present) fights a French stack, the PP gain/loss SHOULD be all Prussia's even though they are under Austrian control and supply. But currently the game would dock Prussia 3PPs for losing the battle AND Austria 3 PPs.

Nathan

(in reply to borner)
Post #: 10
RE: PP bug in 1.04 - 1/19/2009 2:47:54 PM   
Marshall Ellis


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PP losses and gains should be shared across an alliance in this case, even in 1.04.07??? In your example above, Prussia and Austria would gain the +3pp. Is this not what you are seeing?



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Outflank Strategy War Games



(in reply to ndrose)
Post #: 11
RE: PP bug in 1.04 - 1/19/2009 5:10:25 PM   
ndrose

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Marshall Ellis

PP losses and gains should be shared across an alliance in this case, even in 1.04.07??? In your example above, Prussia and Austria would gain the +3pp. Is this not what you are seeing?




That is what I'm seeing. But I'm talking about a case in which there are no Austrian corps or commanders present--just Prussian corps lent to Austria (whether for supply or to keep their movement phases together). In this case, shouldn't Prussia alone gain or lose PPs?

(in reply to Marshall Ellis)
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RE: PP bug in 1.04 - 1/19/2009 5:23:51 PM   
NeverMan

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: ndrose

That is what I'm seeing. But I'm talking about a case in which there are no Austrian corps or commanders present--just Prussian corps lent to Austria (whether for supply or to keep their movement phases together). In this case, shouldn't Prussia alone gain or lose PPs?


YES. Only Prussia should gain/lose PP in that case if there are only Prussian Corps present, regardless to whom they are lent.

It doesn't appear Marshall that you have implemented it this way.

(in reply to ndrose)
Post #: 13
RE: PP bug in 1.04 - 1/19/2009 11:56:37 PM   
Marshall Ellis


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quote:

ORIGINAL: ndrose


quote:

ORIGINAL: Marshall Ellis

PP losses and gains should be shared across an alliance in this case, even in 1.04.07??? In your example above, Prussia and Austria would gain the +3pp. Is this not what you are seeing?




That is what I'm seeing. But I'm talking about a case in which there are no Austrian corps or commanders present--just Prussian corps lent to Austria (whether for supply or to keep their movement phases together). In this case, shouldn't Prussia alone gain or lose PPs?


I cannot remember how this is handled BUT I think they both still receive the pp as a benefit for loaning.




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Marshall Ellis
Outflank Strategy War Games



(in reply to ndrose)
Post #: 14
RE: PP bug in 1.04 - 1/20/2009 12:38:59 AM   
NeverMan

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Marshall Ellis


I cannot remember how this is handled BUT I think they both still receive the pp as a benefit for loaning.





This needs to be fixed and SOON!!

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Post #: 15
RE: PP bug in 1.04 - 1/20/2009 2:09:32 PM   
Marshall Ellis


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I don't see why???
If I were a smart Prussian player that just received 5 Austrian corps on loan then I would AT LEAST make sure that one of my little corps was available to participate in the battle to get the shared pp. After all, I am the Prussian player and I'm in this for Prussia! The amount of time that the Austrian loaned units were in combat alone would be minimal, no?



_____________________________

Thank you

Marshall Ellis
Outflank Strategy War Games



(in reply to NeverMan)
Post #: 16
RE: PP bug in 1.04 - 1/20/2009 2:40:58 PM   
ndrose

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Marshall Ellis

I don't see why???
If I were a smart Prussian player that just received 5 Austrian corps on loan then I would AT LEAST make sure that one of my little corps was available to participate in the battle to get the shared pp. After all, I am the Prussian player and I'm in this for Prussia! The amount of time that the Austrian loaned units were in combat alone would be minimal, no?




Sometimes one might want to be present at the battle, sometimes not (as when it's a battle that's likely to be lost); but I don't think what one would want is really the question. The question is, who is actually present at the battle? If it's only one nation, then that should be reflected in the PP change. Otherwise loaning becomes something quite different from the combined movement and allied supply it's meant to duplicate.

(in reply to Marshall Ellis)
Post #: 17
RE: PP bug in 1.04 - 1/20/2009 2:43:01 PM   
NeverMan

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Marshall Ellis

I don't see why???




Because combined movement is an IMPORTANT aspect of the game, VERY IMPORTANT and changing it gets you closer to real combined movement rules.

I don't even see why this is up for debate.

(in reply to Marshall Ellis)
Post #: 18
RE: PP bug in 1.04 - 1/20/2009 3:07:52 PM   
Marshall Ellis


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quote:

ORIGINAL: ndrose


quote:

ORIGINAL: Marshall Ellis

I don't see why???
If I were a smart Prussian player that just received 5 Austrian corps on loan then I would AT LEAST make sure that one of my little corps was available to participate in the battle to get the shared pp. After all, I am the Prussian player and I'm in this for Prussia! The amount of time that the Austrian loaned units were in combat alone would be minimal, no?




Sometimes one might want to be present at the battle, sometimes not (as when it's a battle that's likely to be lost); but I don't think what one would want is really the question. The question is, who is actually present at the battle? If it's only one nation, then that should be reflected in the PP change. Otherwise loaning becomes something quite different from the combined movement and allied supply it's meant to duplicate.


BUT if Prussia were simply sacrificing Austrian loaned units then that it never good, is it? I cannot imagine Austria being happy with that???




_____________________________

Thank you

Marshall Ellis
Outflank Strategy War Games



(in reply to ndrose)
Post #: 19
RE: PP bug in 1.04 - 1/20/2009 3:19:42 PM   
ndrose

 

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quote:

BUT if Prussia were simply sacrificing Austrian loaned units then that it never good, is it? I cannot imagine Austria being happy with that???


It's not a matter of sacrificing. Sometimes they just don't happen to be stacked together. Allies may loan just to prevent France on land or GB at sea from moving between their phases (that's a large part of the point of combined movement). Or consider my example of GB paying for allied supply, with no GB troops present. Bottom line is, the forces that are present are the forces that are present.

(in reply to Marshall Ellis)
Post #: 20
RE: PP bug in 1.04 - 1/20/2009 9:31:36 PM   
NeverMan

 

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Marshall,

Just implement Combined Movement and be done with this. Thanks.

(in reply to ndrose)
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RE: PP bug in 1.04 - 1/21/2009 10:00:29 AM   
bresh

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Marshall Ellis


quote:

ORIGINAL: ndrose


quote:

ORIGINAL: Marshall Ellis

I don't see why???
If I were a smart Prussian player that just received 5 Austrian corps on loan then I would AT LEAST make sure that one of my little corps was available to participate in the battle to get the shared pp. After all, I am the Prussian player and I'm in this for Prussia! The amount of time that the Austrian loaned units were in combat alone would be minimal, no?




Sometimes one might want to be present at the battle, sometimes not (as when it's a battle that's likely to be lost); but I don't think what one would want is really the question. The question is, who is actually present at the battle? If it's only one nation, then that should be reflected in the PP change. Otherwise loaning becomes something quite different from the combined movement and allied supply it's meant to duplicate.


BUT if Prussia were simply sacrificing Austrian loaned units then that it never good, is it? I cannot imagine Austria being happy with that???





Marshall alot of things could be abused and lend units can be abused in other ways than just PP, same goes for forced-marched to kill factors...
(like moving them to non-agreed areas, forcemarches them when not agreed, takes casulties in a non-agreed method).

If such abuse happened it would depend on the gaming group, it could be redo turn or people drop out.
In my philosophy if an ally badly abuses my forces in ways that where not possible in combined movement in EIA I am playing with the wrong players.

Marshall its nothing about voting for what seems right.
If you want to adjust for non-exsisting EIA combined movement by using this lend units feature.
You need to fix this so only forces participating gain/loss pps !


Regards
Bresh




< Message edited by bresh -- 1/21/2009 10:03:26 AM >

(in reply to Marshall Ellis)
Post #: 22
RE: PP bug in 1.04 - 1/21/2009 12:49:39 PM   
Marshall Ellis


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OK, OK, OK.
It is done.
Will be in 1.06


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Marshall Ellis
Outflank Strategy War Games



(in reply to bresh)
Post #: 23
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