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Maximum Football 2.3 Update?

 
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[Poll]

Maximum Football 2.3 Update?


Yes, I would likely purchase ANY updated expansion pack!
  38% (14)
Yes on an expansion pack with advanced playbooks.
  16% (6)
Yes on an expansion pack with new stadiums.
  2% (1)
Yes on an expansion pack with updated uniforms.
  0% (0)
Yes, ONLY if the pack contained all of the above.
  11% (4)
I'd like an update, but only as a free patch.
  11% (4)
I'd like an expansion pack, but I won't pay for it.
  13% (5)
I don't really want any updates or expansion packs.
  2% (1)
This isn't even a good idea.
  2% (1)


Total Votes : 36


(last vote on : 3/27/2009 6:16:05 PM)
(Poll ended: 12/1/2009 7:00:00 AM)
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Maximum Football 2.3 Update? - 11/3/2008 6:38:18 PM   
Marauders

 

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After discussing this topic with Erik and David, I am considering coordinating an unofficial update for Maximum Football. I am also considering expanding it as an unofficial expansion pack as well. I just need a little feedback from the community.

The update itself would clean up some old playbooks and database items. It would not affect the main program, so leagues should not have to be reset. Items to consider for an expansion pack would be adding advanced playbooks, new stadiums, new uniforms ....

Here are the questions: would you welcome an unoffical update, and would you consider purchasing an unofficial expansion pack?

Post #: 1
RE: Maximum Football 2.3 Update? - 11/3/2008 6:45:19 PM   
simmer

 

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Does this mean David is in the mix too?

(in reply to Marauders)
Post #: 2
RE: Maximum Football 2.3 Update? - 11/3/2008 7:01:32 PM   
Marauders

 

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From: Minnesota
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I have discussed this with David, but official developemnt of 2.x is done, so he likely wouldn't be part of it as more than an observer.

Every game has an official ending for a version or year, and Maximum Football needed one.  Just as Madden 2008 needed to end for Madden 2009 to begin development, Maximum Football 2.x needed to have an official final build.

What I would like to do here is clean up some things that didn't get done and to have a more robust out of the box experience with one update.

(in reply to simmer)
Post #: 3
RE: Maximum Football 2.3 Update? - 11/3/2008 7:04:50 PM   
simmer

 

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Is it possible to make a templet available for an onside kick? I would like to see a possible edit to penalties if possible.

< Message edited by simmer -- 11/3/2008 7:07:15 PM >

(in reply to Marauders)
Post #: 4
RE: Maximum Football 2.3 Update? - 11/3/2008 7:48:59 PM   
therhino

 

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I would love an update. I know 3D fans were discussed for 2.5 could that be added for this update?

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Post #: 5
RE: Maximum Football 2.3 Update? - 11/3/2008 7:53:11 PM   
Bobolini

 

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I voted for all, but would be willing to take any as an expansion (and pay). I do feel that Uni's, stadiums, and gamplans would be a full compliment and worthy of the term "expansion". Also, I'm at 2.0. and wonder if I would have to update to 2.2 before applying the expansion?

(in reply to simmer)
Post #: 6
RE: Maximum Football 2.3 Update? - 11/3/2008 8:06:46 PM   
Marauders

 

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quote:

Simmer asked: Is it possible to make a templet available for an onside kick?


A template or the play itself?

quote:

Simmer stated: I would like to see a possible edit to penalties if possible.


Which type of edits?

quote:

Therhino asked: I know 3D fans were discussed for 2.5; could that be added for this update?


3D fans would require a lot of effort and would only work on computers with high end graphics cards.  I have been looking at some techniques for better looking fans, but I don't think 3D would be in the works for 2.x.

quote:

Bobolini stated: I do feel that Uni's, stadiums, and gamplans would be a full compliment and worthy of the term "expansion".


The key here is integrating the cleaned features and upgrades into one download as the base game.

quote:

Bobolini asked: Also, I'm at 2.0. and wonder if I would have to update to 2.2 before applying the expansion?


I don't really know yet; it depends on what gets in it from the to-do.  I would expect to get the most out of it one would have to though, as I have had sim files on the to-do list, and 2.2 has a sim file for each league.  I guess if those files were included and left unused, it wouldn't break anything.  I am not looking to make changes in the main program.

That begs the question, why didn't you upgrade to the 2.2 patch?

(in reply to Bobolini)
Post #: 7
RE: Maximum Football 2.3 Update? - 11/3/2008 8:26:33 PM   
therhino

 

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Todd, do you think adding onside kicks would be possible? That is one of my biggest complaints about MFB.

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Post #: 8
RE: Maximum Football 2.3 Update? - 11/3/2008 8:28:25 PM   
simmer

 

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If your in touch with David. Would you find out if an onside kick templet is available. Can you acess the table to edit penalties so they can be added or edited. Often a penalty when accepted by the cpu will also result in positive yardage included at the conclusion of the play, but the penalty yards are added to the gain as well. 90% of the time the play is one or the other.

(in reply to Marauders)
Post #: 9
RE: Maximum Football 2.3 Update? - 11/3/2008 11:03:22 PM   
Marauders

 

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One problem with onside kicks is that there is no directional modifier for the kick command.  If one is using arcade play, one could direct the kick, but one cannot with the coaching mode.


(in reply to simmer)
Post #: 10
RE: Maximum Football 2.3 Update? - 11/3/2008 11:42:19 PM   
hack153

 

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what i really want is the ability to select multiple plays at once when creating playbook groups.  that would cut my playbook creation time down by probably 50-75%.



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(in reply to Marauders)
Post #: 11
RE: Maximum Football 2.3 Update? - 11/4/2008 12:11:18 AM   
Marauders

 

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From: Minnesota
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This would not be an update of the main program.  How the main program works functionally will not be changed.  Only David could do that, and he is working on new projects.

(in reply to hack153)
Post #: 12
RE: Maximum Football 2.3 Update? - 11/4/2008 12:29:13 AM   
DreamTeams


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quote:

ORIGINAL: hack153

what i really want is the ability to select multiple plays at once when creating playbook groups.  that would cut my playbook creation time down by probably 50-75%.




This is huge. Would be a welcome addition.


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Post #: 13
RE: Maximum Football 2.3 Update? - 11/4/2008 12:35:19 AM   
therhino

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Marauders
Only David could do that, and he is working on new projects.

Anything sports related?

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Post #: 14
RE: Maximum Football 2.3 Update? - 11/4/2008 2:38:13 AM   
garysorrell


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Maybe people need to be clear, this wouldnt be any sort of update that involved coding...in other words, David isnt involved, so no further bug fixes or changes to the program itself. You are talking stadiums, uniforms, playbooks, things that would make your gameplay experience better, 'Out of the box'?

I think its a fine idea. But im not sure what exactly people would create that others would pay for. There are plenty of stadiums, and uniforms available. And Hack has a solid set of playbooks, and other guys also. Im working on a series of 8 man playbooks.

Personally, im not going to pay for anything else Maximum Football related. I'm sorry to sound harsh, but all I really want to hear is that the developer is going to fix some of the remaining bugs. Until then, I dont really care.

It would be fairly simple for Me, Hack, and Mykal/redwolf1 to create a few leagues to replace the existing ones....leagues/playbooks/uniforms and team specific stadiums, with what we already have. Wouldnt need to charge anyone for it. A single install file and there ya go.



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Post #: 15
RE: Maximum Football 2.3 Update? - 11/4/2008 3:17:34 AM   
hack153

 

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quote:

It would be fairly simple for Me, Hack, and Mykal/redwolf1 to create a few leagues to replace the existing ones....leagues/playbooks/uniforms and team specific stadiums, with what we already have. Wouldnt need to charge anyone for it. A single install file and there ya go.


agreed.

_____________________________

UPFL is in the off season...
United Premier Football League

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Post #: 16
RE: Maximum Football 2.3 Update? - 11/4/2008 11:25:28 AM   
Lucas718

 

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I think it's a good idea as long as it is a free update.  It doesn't sound like there will be much included that can't easily be done by the community.  We have a fine group of people who have created uniforms, stadiums, and playbooks and they've done it without asking for one red cent. 

I wasn't happy with the way David abandoned all support of the game, so I won't be spending any more money. 

(in reply to hack153)
Post #: 17
RE: Maximum Football 2.3 Update? - 11/4/2008 11:57:22 AM   
Frido1207

 

Posts: 480
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From: Lower Saxony, Germany
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Generally I´m with gary & Lucas here & fully second their opinions.
I also was wondering, why D. Winter left without a word.
So all my credits goes to our diehard community members like hack, gary, mykal, marauders et al, who keeps this game & community alive.
I wouldn´t mind to donate an "unofficial update / patch" as long as its made by community members. But atm I wouldn´t like an official "unofficial" update for which I have to pay for, as there are many flaws that still will be remaining.

NB. @ Marauders: what does a "clean up of database items" mean?

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Post #: 18
RE: Maximum Football 2.3 Update? - 11/4/2008 1:17:46 PM   
garysorrell


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quote:

Every game has an official ending for a version or year, and Maximum Football needed one. Just as Madden 2008 needed to end for Madden 2009 to begin development, Maximum Football 2.x needed to have an official final build.

This I agree with completely. And I was definately for an end to development of 2.x, before any further stuff was done. However, as things developed, Davids complete departure meant that it wasnt ended, but dead. There are a number of niggly bugs that remain, it would have been nice if DW were still around to deal with them. Even if he did it behind the scenes and avoided the boards alltogether. He could take bug reports from the boards and bang out a new build when time permits.

I noticed a bug the other night, when calling a timeout, sometimes the play clock doesnt stop and a delay of game is called once you select a play and return to the field. Thats a killer when you are at 4th and 1, opponents goalline, with seconds to play, behind by 4. It doesnt happen all the time, but it does happen.

For all the games I have played, in and out of testing, I hadnt noticed this before. This is the kind of thing that it would be nice to see fixed.

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Post #: 19
RE: Maximum Football 2.3 Update? - 11/4/2008 3:22:13 PM   
MjH

 

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I am of somewhat the same mind as others, I'm not that happy at the abrupt end to the development of MF. Especially with all the talk about the development of 2.5 and then 3.0. However, MF is still a pretty decent game, and it gives me what I'm looking for -- a coach-mode game that implements Canadian football rules.

Unfortunately, I'm a football fan, not a student of the game, so designing plays is something beyond my capabilities (at least not without a lot of study). There has been a lot of work done on various American-rules playbooks, but not very much (any?) with Canadian-rules playbooks. So, I would be interested in an expansion that provided expanded/better Canadian-rules playbook(s).

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Post #: 20
RE: Maximum Football 2.3 Update? - 11/4/2008 4:06:59 PM   
Mykal


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Agreed, Canadian Football was getting almost completely overlooked when I arrived in the forum
thats exactly what spurred me on to do my bit for the canadian game
its not getting overlooked anymore

unfortunately I dont get the time for playbooks
but their are 2 or 3 out their that others have made

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Post #: 21
RE: Maximum Football 2.3 Update? - 11/4/2008 4:48:11 PM   
Marauders

 

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Gary, you have read my posts in the private beta forum, and you know that I have been the most vocal and critical member regarding the departure of David from development of Maximum Football 2.2.  I have put in more hours on the beta team than anyone other than Old Coach, and I have moderated this forum.  I understand that the game still has some problems, and I would like to have David come in every once in a while and clean a few things up from time to time.

That stated, we have to be realistic about what can be done and what cannot.  We can only look at parts of the game that we, including other community members recruited for this project, have access to, experience with, or expertise in.  If David is willing to give us more, then we'll take it, but we can only do our best with what we have.  In any case, there still is much that can be done, but in order for it to have its greatest impact, it should be coordinated into one effort to keep ideas flowing, duplication down, and a much cleaner product.

I have done my best to build a community with this forum - so much so that I have been accused of backing the community more than the wishes of the developer.  I have always thought that a healthy community is important, but we need to look beyond this community at how Maximum Football is perceived by the gaming public.  We need to make things simple and clean, and an unofficial update is the best way to do it in my opinion.

As for being a paid product or not, I don't believe that a small payment is out of line for such an endeavor.  Consider this, the lack of revenue from the upgrade of Maximum Football to 2.0 from 1.3 pretty much killed development.  David was pretty much coding the game for a few dollars a day.  There are dozens of features I have pushed from my own experience and from input from the community that David added to the game and didn't get an extra penny from.  A few months ago, he basically said, that's enough ... the burdens of support were outweighing the benefits.

Maximum Football 2.2 still has some bugs and quirks.  We know that.  So did Madden 2007 and Madden 2008.  It is also missing some features that I thought important to the game like the option, and heaven knows how hard I pushed for the option in the private forum.  If I could find a way to get that in along with kick types and a few other things, I would, but I would need more support from David.

At this time, it is important to understand what we can do and consider the best ways to get it done.  I can either try to do it on my own or ask for the support and input of community members.  In my opinion, it isn't enough to just do this piecemeal.  Our best efforts must show our best results to move Maximum Football 2.2 forward.

< Message edited by Marauders -- 11/4/2008 5:26:29 PM >

(in reply to MjH)
Post #: 22
RE: Maximum Football 2.3 Update? - 11/4/2008 4:53:40 PM   
Marauders

 

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quote:

Unfortunately, I'm a football fan, not a student of the game, so designing plays is something beyond my capabilities (at least not without a lot of study). There has been a lot of work done on various American-rules playbooks, but not very much (any?) with Canadian-rules playbooks. So, I would be interested in an expansion that provided expanded/better Canadian-rules playbook(s).


Advanced Canadian and indoor playbooks have always been part of any plan to move forward.

(in reply to Marauders)
Post #: 23
RE: Maximum Football 2.3 Update? - 11/5/2008 12:19:02 AM   
Lucas718

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Marauders

Consider this, the lack of revenue from the upgrade of Maximum Football to 2.0 from 1.3 pretty much killed development.  David was pretty much coding the game for a few dollars a day.  There are dozens of features I have pushed from my own experience and from input from the community that David added to the game and didn't get an extra penny from.  A few months ago, he basically said, that's enough ... the burdens of support were outweighing the benefits.



I agree with everything you wrote except for the part I quoted above. That was the situation David created for himself by releasing the game in a nearly unplayable state. It was practically criminal to be charging $40 for the game considering the state it was in. The burden of support would have been a lot less if he hadn't rushed the initial release to make a quick buck. Disappearing from the board without a word and no longer supporting the product because he's not making any money off it says a lot to me about the type of person we're dealing with (or were). I seriously doubt I could ever buy another product with his name on it.

(in reply to Marauders)
Post #: 24
RE: Maximum Football 2.3 Update? - 11/5/2008 4:40:07 AM   
redwolf1


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Well, personally, I've drifted away from the game and could not see myself spending another penny on it. How things evolved and how it all ended left a bit of a sore taste in my mouth, and quite honestly, I'm having more fun with other endeavours. I agree with much of the sentiment previously posted. It's a shame, imho, because there are good people here that work(ed) so hard on the game that deserved much more than what was served...so much potential lost...a pitty...oh well...



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Post #: 25
RE: Maximum Football 2.3 Update? - 11/5/2008 7:23:00 AM   
Marauders

 

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quote:

quote:

Marauders stated: A few months ago, he basically said, that's enough ... the burdens of support were outweighing the benefits.


I agree with everything you wrote except for the part I quoted above. That was the situation David created for himself by releasing the game in a nearly unplayable state.


I entered beta just prior to the game going gold, and I agree that the game was not ready to go out the door. One must remember that the community on this board practically begged David and Erik to release early in order to get some sort of public beta for Maximum Football. I thought it unwise to do so, but that is what happened. Even if Matrix Games wanted to do this, it would have been much better to have a limited soft opening announced only to community members for early purchase.

It also would have been a good idea to lock down 1.3 and charge anew for 2.0, but David wanted to move on without having to code the same thing twice, and the community wanted the features. That move cost David and Matrix Games revenue, but some of the same game owners that benefited then are complaining now.

quote:

It was practically criminal to be charging $40 for the game considering the state it was in. The burden of support would have been a lot less if he hadn't rushed the initial release to make a quick buck.


It was a combined decision by David and Matrix Games to release, and not enough noise was made by beta testers against it. Then again, it wasn't the job of the beta team members to dictate sales strategy.

Note also that David stated on the public Wintervalley Software board for Maximum Football, prior to his association with Matrix Games, that he wanted the game to go out at about $30 with a published manual. The Matrix Games pricing structure, which almost assured mild sales, was a development that David had little control over.

quote:

Disappearing from the board without a word and no longer supporting the product because he's not making any money off it says a lot to me about the type of person we're dealing with (or were). I seriously doubt I could ever buy another product with his name on it.


Again, I have been a vocal critic of the way this was handled. Even if David was having issues, he should have come in and said where the game was, what he planned to do, and what he planned not to do. As the developer, it certainly made sense to do so.

That stated, I believe that all of the beta team members knew that David was burning out, the signs were evident to me over a year ago, and I don't believe that some community members understand what that really means in terms of a real world condition. David hit the wall, and he did it while trying to add features and updates that the community requested. Maximum Football was beyond the game he had wanted, he was getting little in return for his efforts, and his life suffered.

When I tell the public that David addressed the beta team day after day, used his nights and weekends for updates, and wasn't just sitting on his hands, it may be hard to believe, but it is factual nevertheless. The only times I recall him taking off for extended periods were during his wedding and during the Grey Cup. Any football fan worth his replica jersey should be able to excuse him for those.

Yeah, it was a bad idea to just up and leave, but even that was likely unintended. I don't believe David wanted to walk away from the game or the community, but while trying to make some changes for 2.5, he just thought that 2.2 would have to do for this go around. There were too many changes needed for 2.5 that would have to be moved to 3.0, and he just needed a break after a half decade of coding.

I am not here to make excuses for David. What I am asking is if we want to move on and do so in an organized manner with specific goals. I understand that for some community members, the answer will be no. There are choices in this poll to indicate that. There are others who would rather wait and see. That's fair enough as well. I just want to see if there is enough base enthusiasm left to warrant the effort needed to move forward.


< Message edited by Marauders -- 11/5/2008 4:46:54 PM >

(in reply to Lucas718)
Post #: 26
RE: Maximum Football 2.3 Update? - 11/5/2008 3:28:39 PM   
MjH

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mykal
but their are 2 or 3 out their that others have made


Really? I missed those. Mykal, do you have pointers to them?

quote:

ORIGINAL: Marauders
Advanced Canadian and indoor playbooks have always been part of any plan to move forward.


That's great to hear.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Marauders
That stated, I believe that all of the beta team members knew that David was burning out, the signs were evident to me over a year ago, and I don't believe that some community members understand what that really means in terms of a real world condition. David hit the wall, and he did it while trying to add features and updates that the community requested. Maximum Football was beyond the game he had wanted, he was getting little in return for his efforts, and his life suffered.


I always wondered about his situation. It appeared to me that he was spending almost all of his "off-time" working on MF (My career is also software development, so I understand how quickly that can consume all available time). He couldn't have been getting much income from MF, so he had to have been doing a real, full time job to pay the bills.



(in reply to Marauders)
Post #: 27
RE: Maximum Football 2.3 Update? - 11/5/2008 5:28:52 PM   
Marauders

 

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quote:

TH1207 stated: So all my credits goes to our diehard community members like hack, gary, mykal, marauders et al, who keeps this game & community alive.

I wouldn´t mind to donate an "unofficial update / patch" as long as its made by community members. But atm I wouldn´t like an official "unofficial" update for which I have to pay for, as there are many flaws that still will be remaining.


It's either going to be official or unofficial as far as Matrix Games goes.  I don't really want to get into this in too much detail here, but I will say that unless both David and Matrix Games support any update as official, it won't be.  I have been trying to get an official go for a project like this since September of 2007, and I suspect that official approval with not be forthcoming.

When people look at how great FBPro was for leagues, one thing they often leave out is that good leagues often requires Gelat or Sundby tools.  Those tools cost $5-$45 each, and there were many of them.  A league could easily spend $100 on just these.  Yet, I don't hear massive complaints about how much FBPro was not ready for leagues.

On the other side, I see the great job Redwolf, JD, and others have done for the Madden community at Football Freaks for basically no cost.  I also see the playbooks and utilities that are being worked on here.  Those are great efforts, and I applaud them, but I want to go beyond that.

How many community members would donate for JD's and Tullius's tools?  How many would donate to keep FBMax running?  How many would donate toward advanced playbooks and stadiums on disc?  What I would like to do is coordinate many of these things into one update that would be cheap, but it would also cover some of the costs of creating it.

So on one hand we have $100 utilities from Sundby and Gelat, and on the other hand we have freebies.  My premise is that somewhere in between is fair enough.  Not to do so is to have the developer and publisher free load off the works of the community, and that is hard for me to stomach ethically.  Nevertheless, I understand the positions of those who would believe in the contrary.  I would not have asked if I didn't want honest replies.

(in reply to MjH)
Post #: 28
RE: Maximum Football 2.3 Update? - 11/5/2008 11:16:31 PM   
mbsports

 

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I think the issue we're all running into is that Max FB is an approximation of a football simulation but the holes in it prevent it from being realistically called a football simulation.  I can point to a barrage of little but material issues right here -
  • if you ever sim Canadian rules games check the first 10 plays of any game in the logs.  Chances are good you will see a fumble about 40-50% of the time.  Kind of a random thing because you may see that kind of thing 5% of the time in real life but there's no way it is anywhere near as predictable as it is in MaxFB. 
  • You can't onside kick,
  • the computer's clock management is Rod Marinelli esque
  • the graphic models are locked down and quite honestly sub-par
  • the crossbar and goal posts are inanimate objects seemingly - i've never seen anything bounce off em'
  • the ball occasionally goes thru the uprights for 1 point not 3
  • in a simmed game an INT is never returned for a TD,
  • a Punt never returned for a TD
  • a kick never returned for a TD
  • a fumble never returned for a TD. 
  • In the arcade style mode punt returns are too often returned for a score due to some of the innate behavior of saying "go this way" even when it doesn't make sense - no if/then/if not/then possiblities, a lack of the option which is one of the most prevalent offenses of all time
  • The process of setting a depth chart is convoluted and automatically doing it results in quite frankly - wrong assignments<fullback>
  • Positions in 8 man are out of wack where you can't make a LB a FB which is fairly common
  • The computer randomly will create players during a season to fill spots
  • the draft creates way too many players without human intervention
  • there is no usable output on board without massive human intervention
  • Ball doesn't bounce off of walls
  • QB Trajectory is too consistent, low passes aren't whizzers and bombs don't loft enough.  Every
  • the stats are saved in a format in the db that requires massive human intervention
  • included playbooks aren't optimized to what the game has expanded into
  • Positional reality is ignored - the NFL, AFL, NCAA, CFL, most High Schools, Amateur teams, indoor leagues.  The only league where I saw teams with the positions like those in Max FB was the BAFL.  Yes the only way to accurate display positions in Max FB is to use a British American Football League.  This is denial of reality, we call them DTs because they play DT in this day and era, when we refer to the player being a tight end we're talking about the position on the field that he most regularly plays and is positioned at per the league he plays in.  They use this for contracts so it is a real part of football and MaxFB has ignored it
  • Multiple Lateral Passes behind the line - legal in every league I'm aware of... not possible in Max FB
  • no trade engine per se, no contract engine, no cap engin

I just don't know how to express it in simple terms - the game is not football, it's an approximation of football and what it lacks has been compensated for to a tremendous degree by the community.  Now I'll pay for an update and I have no issue doing but can you look above and tell me that those issues don't hurt the marketability and future of any Max FB project.  Quite frankly it isn't football as the game is played in any league in the world.  I don't want to hurt anyone's feelings but the limitations are just huge right now and faith in some of them getting fixed is nill.

(in reply to Marauders)
Post #: 29
RE: Maximum Football 2.3 Update? - 11/6/2008 12:12:47 AM   
Mykal


Posts: 1777
Joined: 4/3/2008
Status: offline
Well I cant say your wrong because what you've hit is actual fact

changing the subject slightly and not aiming this at you MB (just the thread in general)

MF update 2.3............. what update ?
did nobody listen to the recent announcement, work on this title has finished
baring someone stepping in to save future progress.......what we have now is all were gonna have.

_____________________________


(in reply to mbsports)
Post #: 30
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