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Jocks' initial attribute values & skill values

 
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Jocks' initial attribute values & skill values - 10/17/2008 10:39:39 AM   
gazra

 

Posts: 34
Joined: 10/17/2008
Status: offline 		As I was creating Jocks for my squad, to my complete amazement and annoyance and frustration, I noticed that the attribute values and skill values that a Jock initially starts with (before you begin spending Development Points) are determined by the Jock's name and callsign.

I also noticed that, if you swap around the Jock's name and callsign, then the initial attribute values and skill values remain the same. For example, a Jock with the name "Joe" and callsign "Bloggs" has the exact same initial attribute values and skill values as a Jock with the name "Bloggs" and callsign "Joe". I think this only works for certain combinations of names and callsigns (probably only simple names and callsigns).

These effects are case sensitive. For example, a Jock with the name "JOE" and callsign "BLOGGS" has completely different initial attribute values and skill values than a Jock with the name "joe" and callsign "bloggs".

Can anybody please inform me as to the exact algorithm used to determine the initial attribute values and skill values of new Jocks?

Can anybody please inform me as to the combinations of Jock names and callsigns that give the highest initial attribute values and skill values that you know of?

Can any veteran players please advise me as to the weapons that you think are the best in the game?

It seems that all of the weapons in the "Cannon" category have an unfair advantage because other weapon categories can be countered by equipment (i.e. shield hits negate any special effects of and all of the damage from energy weapons, and flares and E.C.M. (Electronic Counter Measures) can prevent G.M.H. missiles from hitting the target Titan).

I started playing FASA Corporation's tabletop game BATTLETECH in 1989. I have been a huge fan of ROBOTECH and the BATTLETECH universe ever since then! Thank you Vicious Byte and Matrix Games for making such a superb computer game and for making it freeware on the internet.

< Message edited by gazra -- 6/28/2009 7:58:41 AM >
Post #: 1
RE: Jocks' initial attribute values & skill values - 10/17/2008 3:59:16 PM   
Thorgrim

 

Posts: 2369
Joined: 10/11/2001
From: Portugal
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: gazra

As I was creating Jocks for my squad, to my complete amazement and annoyance and frustration, I discovered that the attribute values and skill values that a Jock initially starts with (before you begin spending Development Points) are determined by the Jock's name and callsign.



Notice that you're searching through a database of names, so it makes sense that each name/callsign corresponds to a set of skills. Of course, this is prone to being a bit exploitative, *if* you choose to go that way. It's not really fun to play a jock called "xgeiydbs" just to get some slightly better stats.

quote:

Can anybody please inform me as to the combinations of Jock names and callsigns that give the highest initial attribute values and skill values that you know of?


Now, that would spoil all the fun in finding those out for yourself...
I once started compiling such a list, many many moons ago, but then thought it was pretty dumb, and quit.

quote:


Can any veteran players please advise me as to the weapons that you think are the best in the game?


Depends on your playstyle, what titan class you're playing, the role of the design, etc. There should't be any weapons dominating. They all have their place in the game. Sometimes one is considered overpowered, but that's really a matter of opinion.

quote:

It seems that all of the weapons in the "Cannon" category have an unfair advantage because the other weapon categories all have equipment that can counteract them (i.e. shields negate some of the damage from "Energy Weapon"s, and flares and E.C.M. (electronic countermeasures) can prevent "Guided Missile"s and "Unguided Missile"s from hitting your Titan).


Have you looked at the stats for cannons? They are larger, heavier, and have this thing called ammo that every so often tends to explode (from heat or from being hit) And that has even been reported to have run out in the middle of a battle... Plus, they can dud, etc.
BTW, flares and ECM only counter *guided* missiles, not unguided! UGMs are pretty much like cannons in that there's no counter to them except armor (except shields vs heat from NMs).


_____________________________

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RE: Jocks' initial attribute values & skill values - 10/18/2008 3:06:41 AM   
gazra

 

Posts: 34
Joined: 10/17/2008
Status: offline 		Thanks for all of your helpful advice, Thorgrim. Much appreciated.

In BATTLETECH and MechWarrior, I've always preferred using the most massive Assault 'Mechs that are decked out with the most damaging energy weapons, but this game has some fantastic special weapons that I am tempted to concentrate on using instead, like the Meson Gun, Neutron Blaster, and E.M. Pulser. My only concern with the Meson Gun is that it uses ammo. In BATTLETECH and MechWarrior, I would usually never equip weapons that use ammo because I didn't want to risk my mechwarriors and 'Mechs taking damage from ammo explosions.

I'd be very interested to know what Titans and weapons and Jock races you favour (favor) using, and why you prefer using them.

< Message edited by gazra -- 11/8/2008 5:58:45 AM >

(in reply to Thorgrim)
Post #: 3
RE: Jocks' initial attribute values & skill values - 10/18/2008 1:05:47 PM   
LarkinVB

 

Posts: 1887
Joined: 10/9/2001
From: Germany
Status: offline
quote:

Can S.R.M. Rack, L.R.M. Rack, and G.M.H. Rack weapons cause interior equipment damage if the armor is still intact?


Multiple hits on a single location are added and applied as a total. Therefore missiles can cause interior damage in theory. Statistically it is rare for small racks.

My favorite weapons are plasma gun and gauss cannon, dealing good damage with good accuracy on medium ranges. Of course I like laying smoke in team games therefore the AC7/12 isn't bad at all. All weapons have their pros and cons and heir usage does depend on your team, the enemy and the map.

If you prefer energy weapons you are at a disadvantage against a full team of shielded enemies.

< Message edited by LarkinVB -- 10/18/2008 1:11:20 PM >

(in reply to Thorgrim)
Post #: 4
RE: Jocks' initial attribute values & skill values - 10/21/2008 1:23:27 PM   
Thorgrim

 

Posts: 2369
Joined: 10/11/2001
From: Portugal
Status: offline 		Like Henrik already mentioned, the weapons that are overall considered as the best I guess are the PG and the GC. Solid medium weapons. I like most weapons, but I'm a bit partial to medium weapons too; love the AC12 and the LL too, for example. And the HMG    There's something to be said about LRMs too, especially the larger rack. I tend to favor heavy titans, one of my favorites being the Disruptor (twin HMGs and AC12s).

_____________________________

Iceman

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RE: Jocks' initial attribute values & skill values - 10/23/2008 2:04:13 AM   
gazra

 

Posts: 34
Joined: 10/17/2008
Status: offline 		Thanks for all of your helpful advice, Thorgrim and LarkinVB - much appreciated! This computer game is better than BATTLETECH because this computer game has much more sophisticated game mechanics (which allow for more strategies and battlefield tactics and things to affect Titans and Jocks during a battle), much more realistic engineering systems in the Titans, more variety with Jock races and all of the special weapons, the different weapons are more evenly matched (unlike in BATTLETECH, where the PPC, Clan Large Pulse Laser, and Clan ER PCC ruled the battlefield), and (most importantly) there is no perfect Titan design (unlike in BATTLETECH, which was its main fault). I bet multiplayer team games of this computer game would be extremely challenging and so much fun, no matter whether you were on the winning side or losing side!

How often do Jocks in your squad die in battle?

I'd still REALLY like other players to post a list of some of the combinations of Jock names and callsigns that yield the highest initial attribute values and skill values that you know of.

< Message edited by gazra -- 11/15/2008 5:08:29 AM >

(in reply to Thorgrim)
Post #: 6
RE: Jocks' initial attribute values & skill values - 10/23/2008 10:10:22 AM   
Thorgrim

 

Posts: 2369
Joined: 10/11/2001
From: Portugal
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: gazra
This computer game is MUCH better than BATTLETECH


I'm an avid BT fan, played it in most of its forms since its inception (including MechForce ). And I agree with this statement Henrik and Kai did a superb job!
Now, if only Kai would be so kind as to amaze us again, with his WoSP project...

quote:


Thorgrim, where does the superb name "Thorgrim" originate from?


Hehe, people have asked that already quite a few times. It didn't originate in anything really, other than my brain - I don't recall any influence back then, that is. I've been using that as my character name in RPGs since the good old days of D&D/AD&D (early 80s) - I always rolled "lucky" for Paladins... I always had this interest in nordic culture, and that's basically where it stems from. I then used it in an awesome space strategy PBM/PBEM called The Last Empire, made by a friend of mine in college (gosh, that was 20 years ago!).
I've seen it used a few times now, particularly recently.

quote:


How does the game figure out which guided missiles are heat-seeking and which are energy-seeking, or are all guided missiles both heat-seeking and energy-seeking and the game automatically selects which seeking mode the missile will use? Does each slot of Guided Missile ammo that you allocate in a Titan have to be chosen as being heat-seeking or energy-seeking at the time you allocate the ammo to the slot during Titan design? When firing a Guided Missile Rack, do you have the choice of selecting the ammo type you would like to use for that particular salvo?


There are two different types of GMs: the GMH racks (heat), and the GME launcher (energy). They're pretty much descriptive They have different stats, they each have their own ammo, and they have different abilities. Check their descriptions in the factory. Also, check the guide that is available in the free game, in pdf format IIRC. It explains everything in detail.

quote:


How often do Jocks in your squad die in battle?


I haven't really played in a while, been busy with another project. But Henrik's new patch might just change that
Not too often though, except for the occasional explosion. I take care of my jocks, though I'll risk their lives for extra XP when I deem the risk worth it.

quote:

Do you accept the death of your Jocks as they occur during a battle or do you recall your squad from battle so that your veteran Jock cheats death?


I accept their deaths. Notice that you can also retreat from battle, in a legitimate way, by exiting all your titans from the battlefield.

quote:


I'd still REALLY like other players to post a list of some of the combinations of Jock names and callsigns that yield the highest initial attribute values and skill values that you know of.


I went looking for mine, but can't find it. Probably deleted it.

< Message edited by Thorgrim -- 10/23/2008 10:13:05 AM >

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RE: Jocks' initial attribute values & skill values - 11/1/2008 2:16:53 PM   
n48

 

Posts: 1
Joined: 11/1/2008
Status: offline 		Don't forget that each shield hit creates - sometimes massive - amounts of heat on the target, specially on pre-made titans in a single player game. So shields sometimes aren't all that great at all... like when you notice your heat rocketing to critical levels! So shields aren't that much of a help on lighter titans.


I'd advise you to not powerplay this game so much or even at all...

Try doing an experiment: use a balanced approach in your sp games, say, weaker weapons (a single strong weapon on a chassis and a few weaker ones) or even try using pre-made titans consistently... roleplay a little... you'll see how ToS suddenly becomes much more deep and challenging then before, with an even greater replay value!

A totally different game...

(in reply to gazra)
Post #: 8
RE: Jocks' initial attribute values & skill values - 11/1/2008 5:17:42 PM   
Thorgrim

 

Posts: 2369
Joined: 10/11/2001
From: Portugal
Status: offline 		Shields are useful for crossing burning woods, and decreasing the risk of being the target of called shots for example. And they´re great against CLGs, and help against mesons, among other things.

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Post #: 9
RE: Jocks' initial attribute values & skill values - 11/2/2008 2:59:34 AM   
CrushU

 

Posts: 120
Joined: 8/2/2002
Status: offline 		Generally I consider shields very much Worth It and I factor at least the heat the shields themselves generate into heat balancing my customs.

Mostly because while that extra 25 heat from that tesla bolt striking your shields DOES kinda screw your heat up, it's better than 25 damage going into your leg and screwing that up. Heat is easier to fix than armor. :)

And the idea of RP in the game is a good one, to me, but hard to manage with just the SP... Hence why I proposed Multiplayer campaigns, in a different topic. ;)

< Message edited by CrushU -- 11/2/2008 3:00:21 AM >

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Post #: 10
RE: Jocks' initial attribute values & skill values - 11/2/2008 10:05:38 AM   
SireChaos

 

Posts: 710
Joined: 8/14/2006
From: Frankfurt, Germany
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: gazra

Thanks for all of your helpful advice, Thorgrim and LarkinVB - much appreciated! This computer game is MUCH better than BATTLETECH because this computer game has much more sophisticated game mechanics and much more realistic engineering systems in the Titans, not to mention more variety with Jock races and the fact that some weapons have special abilities. Designing Titans is much more difficult in this game as there is no perfect design (unlike in BATTLETECH). But this computer game is much more ruthless than BATTLETECH because Jocks can die from just 1 lucky hit to the cockpit from many different types of weapons in this game. This computer game has far more strategy and tactics than BATTLETECH, and it is all the better for it. I bet team games of this computer game would be extremely challenging and so much fun, no matter whether you were on the winning side or losing side!


Kinda off-topic, but I am sort of curious what those "perfect designs" for BattleTech are. I haven´t found any - and believe me, I´ve tried.

I play both BT and Titans, and in my experience, I would say BT is more "ruthless", i.e. deadly. There are also several ways to knock out or cripple or destroy outright a ´mech in a single lucky roll in BT. And with the level 2 rules in particular (and the Clan/3050 technology) fights are usually over faster than in Titans.

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RE: Jocks' initial attribute values & skill values - 11/3/2008 6:41:04 AM   
CrushU

 

Posts: 120
Joined: 8/2/2002
Status: offline 		Five CLPLs+TC and 52 Heatsinks on a 3/5 move Clan Assault with full armor strikes me as being one of said designs.

I play Invasion 3042, and custom mechs are (were) a problem there, but recently they were removed, no more can be built. ... There are 'only' 200 of those that I mentioned above left in the game. -.-;

(in reply to SireChaos)
Post #: 12
RE: Jocks' initial attribute values & skill values - 11/4/2008 12:33:13 PM   
SireChaos

 

Posts: 710
Joined: 8/14/2006
From: Frankfurt, Germany
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: CrushU

Five CLPLs+TC and 52 Heatsinks on a 3/5 move Clan Assault with full armor strikes me as being one of said designs.


If you mean, 26 double heat sinks, Clan technology, in a 100 ton chassis, yes that should work, but off the top of my head it would be an extremely tight fit, both space- and weight-wise.
Let´s see: 100 tons, minus 36 for lasers and TC, minus 16 for heat sinks, minus 25 for reactor, gyro and cockpit, minus 10 for structure leaves 17 tons for armor - full armor would be 19.5 tons IIRC.
An empty mech has 47 empty internal slots; 10 for the lasers, 5 for the TC, 32 for the heat sinks - that doesn´t add up, because there is no single-slot item that fits into the single empty slot in the head.

Plus, such a design must have one hell of Combat Strength point value. I could probably field 2 or 3 more conservatively designed units against that one - or 4 to 5 Inner Sphere units. You see, I mostly play in a community where matches are set up using more-or-less point values.

(in reply to CrushU)
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RE: Jocks' initial attribute values & skill values - 11/7/2008 2:32:58 AM   
CrushU

 

Posts: 120
Joined: 8/2/2002
Status: offline 		I'll go find the design and post it... Did you remember to remove arm actuators? One of the few real weaknesses it had was that all its weapons were torsomounted. It is NOT an XL. BV was something like 2400 under BV2 rules.

Hold a moment...

Interesting. 50 DHS, Standard Armor and engine, Endo internals, 2LPL each in RT and LT, one in CT. Wow, it only has 16.5 tons of armor. They balanced it towards the front, 48 CT, 32 Side torsos, 6 RCT, 4 Rear side torsos... 2649 under BV2 rules. Wait, no. Sorry. After this thing was killing things right and left, a test was run, adjusting the LPL down to a lesser range and tohit mod... Then changed back, and added I think 40BV to each LPL on a mech. So it's slightly modified BV.

And yeah it was a tight fit... It was a custom mech. What custom mechs have you seen that DONT barely squeeze crits and tonnage into perfect harmony?

(in reply to SireChaos)
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RE: Jocks' initial attribute values & skill values - 11/7/2008 12:54:25 PM   
SireChaos

 

Posts: 710
Joined: 8/14/2006
From: Frankfurt, Germany
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: CrushU

I'll go find the design and post it... Did you remember to remove arm actuators? One of the few real weaknesses it had was that all its weapons were torsomounted. It is NOT an XL. BV was something like 2400 under BV2 rules.


Okay, without arm actuactors, you´ll have enough space.

I´m not sure about BV. There are two point values in BT... one is thought to measure the complexity of a mech (i.e. the resources that would go to producing it), to capture the "price" of the unit; the other measures its combat effectiveness (by for example reducing point value if the unit has insufficient heat sinks). Which value is which in English? I only ever played the German version.

quote:

Hold a moment...

Interesting. 50 DHS, Standard Armor and engine, Endo internals, 2LPL each in RT and LT, one in CT. Wow, it only has 16.5 tons of armor. They balanced it towards the front, 48 CT, 32 Side torsos, 6 RCT, 4 Rear side torsos... 2649 under BV2 rules. Wait, no. Sorry. After this thing was killing things right and left, a test was run, adjusting the LPL down to a lesser range and tohit mod... Then changed back, and added I think 40BV to each LPL on a mech. So it's slightly modified BV.


And there´s the mech´s weakness... ridiculous rear armor, no rear-facing weapons, no arm-mounted weapons. If the battlefield has any kind of cover (which they almost invariably have), a reasonably fast enemy (8/12 movement would be great, preferably with jump jets) can get close enough to it to get into its rear as soon as it wins initiative; then, one solid hit will lay open the rear armor and score critical hits.

I´m almost willing to bet that with that tactic, I could defeat your ´mech with a stock Blitzkrieg, or Fire Moth Prime or D, or Ice Ferret Prime. All of which IIRC cost far less points than yours.

quote:

And yeah it was a tight fit... It was a custom mech. What custom mechs have you seen that DONT barely squeeze crits and tonnage into perfect harmony?



Plenty. I´ve played around with the construction rules often enough. And I don´t focus on the heaviest unit possible. I´ll see if I find some of my old notes, so I can post an example or two.

(in reply to CrushU)
Post #: 15
RE: Jocks' initial attribute values & skill values - 11/7/2008 8:56:37 PM   
CrushU

 

Posts: 120
Joined: 8/2/2002
Status: offline 		I didn't say heaviest possible.

Yes, that is the glaring weakness. The reason it got made at all, is this game I was playing uses double-blind movement, not the CBT system of Initiative. :( Initiative would royally screw those mechs, which is why it had a low BV for how powerful it is; The BV2 system being used doesn't take into account double-blind movement. It's a large flaw, and ultimately ended up in customs being banned outright when it was finally noticed.

(It was hard to get in the rear arc, because you had to guess one of six hexsides would have the rear. Torso twisting being what it was, that one of six would also be the only one you could avoid being shot at. They would take these mechs and sit them in Heavy Woods, and just turn the facing whenever a faster mech got close. Very annoying.)

(in reply to SireChaos)
Post #: 16
RE: Jocks' initial attribute values & skill values - 11/8/2008 12:02:08 PM   
SireChaos

 

Posts: 710
Joined: 8/14/2006
From: Frankfurt, Germany
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: CrushU

I didn't say heaviest possible.


But the heaviest units are the ones most likely to be short on internal slots, with all the stuff they carry.

quote:

Yes, that is the glaring weakness. The reason it got made at all, is this game I was playing uses double-blind movement, not the CBT system of Initiative. :( Initiative would royally screw those mechs, which is why it had a low BV for how powerful it is; The BV2 system being used doesn't take into account double-blind movement. It's a large flaw, and ultimately ended up in customs being banned outright when it was finally noticed.

(It was hard to get in the rear arc, because you had to guess one of six hexsides would have the rear. Torso twisting being what it was, that one of six would also be the only one you could avoid being shot at. They would take these mechs and sit them in Heavy Woods, and just turn the facing whenever a faster mech got close. Very annoying.)



Do the rules you use include the ability of energy weapons to set fire to woods?

Anyway, I´ve never played double blind, but from what you describe, my tactics against that mech would be to use two fast units with low BV, maybe Vipers or Ice Ferrets, and get them on either side of this mech - it could not turn in any way that would not have it end up with its back turned to one of them. That, and/or use fast-moving units that stay in the CLPL´s long range bracket, to keep your unit´s to-hit modifiers high.

(in reply to CrushU)
Post #: 17
RE: Jocks' initial attribute values & skill values - 11/8/2008 10:47:05 PM   
CrushU

 

Posts: 120
Joined: 8/2/2002
Status: offline 		Unfortunately, no, woods burning is not in. Presumably a coding issue, as the maps are all housed as databases on a server. (I think the maps are 125x125. Sounds large, but realize that there have been 200K BV on both sides of a fight a couple times, and higher is possible. The maps are unique to each zone being attacked... Anyway.)

Unfortunately, using a fast-mover to stay inside or just outside the CLPL bracket and keep tohit mods high isn't such a great idea. Because of the CLPL+TC making it a -3 tohit, it basically nullifies long range. Using the two fast ones *does* sometimes work quite well, the problems with that tactic come from three areas: Generally, whichever one isn't pounding the rear armor is getting wtfpwnt by 5 CLPLs, that usually makes it down to just one. Secondly, back shots are not guaranteed kills. They're Very Likely, but it is a Standard engine still, so you need CT shots, and arm and leg shots are quite possible as well. (Annoying to get a Viper-A behind him finally, smash an alpha, and have all shots hit arm/leg.) Finally, and this is the big one, in a LARGER battle, such as a 20k fight, with three or four of these things and a few others of a similar thought process (Lots of armor on front, ERPPCs+ERLLs+TC, 3/5 move, no arm actuators/only two arm weapons.) light mechs become less useful, as you'll ALWAYS be under fire because they set up rings, and light mechs don't stand up to constant fire very well.

There were two tactics that tended to work. One was using a Light 8/12/8 Custom with 1 ERLL+TC, and max armor. It would usually get lots better tohits than the opposing mech. The other tactic was to use something with a low-ish BV and lots of close range weapons, and hide out of LOS, getting in close and delivering fatal volumes of damage. (Hunchback IIC, with two UAC20s, wasn't a bad one for this. Linebacker-H was also useful for this reason. I had some success with a Warhawk-H as well.)

There's certainly issues with the battle system, but the coder is working on fixing them. If you'd care to try this out, the site is www.invasion3042.com and I'm in Clan Ghost Bear. (saKhan, actually) HIGHLY advised you get on IRC, irc.afternet.org and the #invasion3042 channel. I'll be saKhan|Carin_Tseng[CGB] there. Be warned, it's a Slow-paced game, save for the battles.

(in reply to SireChaos)
Post #: 18
RE: Jocks' initial attribute values & skill values - 11/9/2008 3:44:12 PM   
SireChaos

 

Posts: 710
Joined: 8/14/2006
From: Frankfurt, Germany
Status: offline 		MegaMek has burning woods... among other things. http://megamek.sourceforge.net

So, if part of the basic rules haven´t been implemented, that is of course an issue that can unbalance the game. The point of balanced rules is that every tactic can be countered by a different tactic - such as, hiding in woods can be countered by setting woods on fire, or at least clearing them. This omission alone would almost be a game breaker for me.

And, if you keep running 10+ hexes per turn, and stay within the long range bracket, you´ll get a total modifier of +8 to your enemies´to-hit roll. Even with those -3, that´s a +5, for a 2d6 roll, the more so if you, too, are in a woods hex, or there are some woods in the line of fire.

(in reply to CrushU)
Post #: 19
RE: Jocks' initial attribute values & skill values - 11/9/2008 9:18:16 PM   
CrushU

 

Posts: 120
Joined: 8/2/2002
Status: offline 		Well, the admin is working on it even as we speak. He's well-known for answering any bug report within a week, and usually within a day.

But here's the thing... If you're facing this mech, camping in its Heavy Woods... The net advantage is 5 in its favor, if you stand still without cover. +2 to hit him for his HW, and he has -3 to hit you. So you need to offset this by at least 5. Running 10? Now it's 3 in his favor. +4 to hit him for your movement and HW, and +1 for him to hit you for your movement and his bonuses. Running 10 into heavy woods only gives you 1 in his favor still. You have to offset it with gunnery skill. Or by forcing him to change facing. Jumping 10 into heavy woods would also give the same net effect. So yeah. That's why this thing was so cheap, you could never get a better tohit than it had, unless you also used Pulse lasers/TC.

Artillery IS in, but you can't just fire randomly, aka the only ammo is Homing Arrow IV. The plus side is that it's coded so that you need to TAG a mech, and then can fire the Arrow, with tohit based on range: 1-17 4 tohit, 18-34 6 tohit, 35-51 8 tohit, 52-68 10 tohit, and anything further is impossible. No travel time for the shell, basically. Good when you have several Arrow with one Tagger, bad if that tagger dies. :p

And yeah, I know of megamek. I like the most recent version with Aerospace... Even though I don't know those rules. xD Simultaneous fire declaration is interesting, too.

:( No one interested in multiplayer ToS campaign? :'(

(in reply to SireChaos)
Post #: 20
RE: Jocks' initial attribute values & skill values - 11/9/2008 9:44:55 PM   
LarkinVB

 

Posts: 1887
Joined: 10/9/2001
From: Germany
Status: offline 		I don't understand a word of you BT chatter

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Post #: 21
RE: Jocks' initial attribute values & skill values - 11/14/2008 4:19:37 PM   
Thorgrim

 

Posts: 2369
Joined: 10/11/2001
From: Portugal
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: gazra
I bet multiplayer team games of this computer game would be extremely challenging and so much fun, no matter whether you were on the winning side or losing side!


Hehe, yep, good old days when we played 2v2 team games. I had the pleasure of playing a couple of games with both Henrik and Kai (the developers), and it was great fun. They're fantastic. I miss those days. Well, except the games against Hetzer the head chopper (RIP, fellow Jock).

_____________________________

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Post #: 22
RE: Jocks' initial attribute values & skill values - 11/15/2008 3:31:46 AM   
gazra

 

Posts: 34
Joined: 10/17/2008
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quote:

n48: "Try doing an experiment: use a balanced approach in your SP games, say, weaker weapons (a single strong weapon on a chassis and a few weaker ones) or even try using pre-made titans consistently... roleplay a little... you'll see how ToS suddenly becomes much more deep and challenging than before, with an even greater replay value! A totally different game..."

You're quite right, n48. I will probably do the things that you suggested after I have mastered this game and when I replay the game and am seeking a greater challenge. But my problem is that I find it difficult to roleplay at the expense of having more capable Jocks and Titans. I've found some of the enemy Titans in the 'Deep Core' starter campaign (like the 'Ascension III' and the 'Spiritwalker') to be formidable (even against my "super" Jocks and custom-designed Titans!). I find it difficult to roleplay this game when:
1. Around half of the Titans have names that are from 'Mechs in BATTLETECH (in my opinion, it is sacrilege to use classic 'Mech names like the Warhammer, Marauder, Battlemaster, Awesome, and Atlas anywhere else but in BATTLETECH!).
2. Quite a few of the default Titans in v1.2.1 of the game seem to be not optimally designed.
3. The way the game determines the initial attribute values and skill values of new Jock recruits is so unfair! (not including any modifiers due to your Squad Leader's rank and 'Leadership' skill value).
4. Some of the different weapons in this game seem to be better than others.
5. The game allows you to custom design your own Titans.

quote:

CrushU: "Generally, I consider shields very much worth it, mostly because while that extra 25 heat from that tesla bolt striking your shields DOES kinda screw your heat up, it's better than 25 damage going into your leg and screwing that up. Heat is easier to fix than armor."

I agree with CrushU. I prefer using shields too. They save you a lot of money when repairing armor. The only cases where you wouldn't want your Titans to have active shields are:
1. You're fighting Titans that don't have Meson Guns or energy weapons.
2. You're fighting Titans that only have GME Rack weapons.
3. You're Titan has overheated and you desperately need to cool it down as fast as possible.
But even in the above cases, active shields provide some protection from exploding Titans. In my experience, heat plays a MUCH more significant role in this game than it does in BATTLETECH, so I can see n48's point of view. It's not fun when your pristine Titan shuts down in the middle of a battle because it has overheated. On the negative side, an active shield increases a Titan's HD (HiDing factor or visibility) by 0.5, making the Titan easier to detect. And shields can overload, which DOUBLES the amount of heat absorbed from the weapon, and renders the shield useless for a while (and then you have to spend yet more time reactivating the shield, which prevents you from attacking during that time). On the other hand, shields reduce the amount of heat received from Flame Throwers and Napalm missiles. Every piece of equipment in this game has its pros and cons. It just boils down to your playing style and what you prefer to use.

quote:

SireChaos: "I would say BT is more "ruthless", i.e. deadly."

Reading the manual for this computer game gave me the impression that combat in this computer game seemed more ruthless than in BATTLETECH. However, now that I have actually PLAYED this computer game a bit, I now agree with you, SireChaos, that MechWarriors in BATTLETECH have a much greater chance of dying in battles. A single head shot by an AC/20, Gauss Rifle, or Clan ER PPC will instantly kill a MechWarrior. What was I thinking?

quote:

CrushU: "Five CLPLs+TC and 52 Heatsinks on a 3/5 move Clan Assault with full armor"

I only have old editions of the BATTLETECH rule books and Technical Readouts (that date back to 1992 or earlier), so I'm not familiar with the Battle Values of 'Mechs, and I don't know anything about "level 2 rules", "BV2 rules", "double-blind movement", "the BV2 system", or the "Blitzkrieg" and "Fire Moth" and "Ice Ferret" 'Mechs. According to my calculations, CrushU's above 'Mech design would not be able to have full armor (i.e. 19 tons for 304 armor points) - it would be 1 ton short of being able to have full armor.

quote:

SireChaos: "And there´s the mech´s weakness... ridiculous rear armor, no rear-facing weapons"

In the 3rd printing of 'The BattleTech Compendium' (1990), an optional rule is that 'Mechs without hand and lower arm actuators are able to flip both arms over during the Reaction Phase rather than perform a torso twist, which then allows any arm-mounted weapons to fire into the rear firing arc. Note that BattleMechs that are constructed without lower arm and hand actuators suffer no weapons fire penalties for lacking these components. Another benefit of a 'Mech having no hand and lower arm actuators is that the 'Mech's cost (in C-Bills) is cheaper. Quite frankly, why a 'Mech would have hand and lower arm actuators in the first place is beyond me!
My version of CrushU's "perfect" 'Mech design has much more sensible armor point allocation, so it wouldn't suffer from that problem, SireChaos.

quote:

SireChaos: "Do the rules you use include the ability of energy weapons to set fire to woods?"

Yes, but it is an optional rule in the 3rd printing of 'The BattleTech Cempendium' (1990). Titans of Steel: Warring Suns uses a lot of the rules from BATTLETECH, which is one of the reasons why this computer game is superb.

quote:

CrushU: "I play Invasion 3042"

Why is the game called 'Invasion 3042' when the Clans invaded the Inner Sphere in 3049?

quote:

SireChaos: "And there´s the mech´s weakness... ridiculous rear armor, no rear-facing weapons, no arm-mounted weapons. If the battlefield has any kind of cover (which they almost invariably have), a reasonably fast enemy (8/12 movement would be great, preferably with jump jets) can get close enough to it to get into its rear as soon as it wins initiative; then, one solid hit will lay open the rear armor and score critical hits. Anyway, I´ve never played double blind, but from what you describe, my tactics against that mech would be to use two fast units with low BV, maybe Vipers or Ice Ferrets, and get them on either side of this mech - it could not turn in any way that would not have it end up with its back turned to one of them. That, and/or use fast-moving units that stay in the CLPL´s long range bracket, to keep your unit´s to-hit modifiers high."

The following quote is from page 7 of the Revised Second Printing of 'BattleTech Technical Readout: 3050': "Each Clan warrior selects his own target, and it appears to be dishonorable to allow another warrior to help in a kill". SireChaos, if you were roleplaying Clan MechWarriors, then they would be dishonored for using such tactics.
SireChaos, you certainly have a keen eye for the best 'Mechs in the BATTLETECH universe. That Viper is one of the best 'Mech designs. Its only design faults are that it doesn't have enough heat sinks to be able to fire all of its weapons without overheating, and that it has an XL engine which makes critical hits to its engine more likely. My personal favorite 'Mech in all of the Technical Readouts up to and including 3055 is the Masakari (Alternate Configuration C). I also like the Rifleman IIC, the Behemoth, the Pouncer (Primary Weapons Configuration), and the Awesome AWS-8Q.

quote:

SireChaos: "And, if you keep running 10+ hexes per turn, and stay within the long range bracket, you´ll get a total modifier of +8 to your enemies´to-hit roll. Even with those -3, that´s a +5, for a 2d6 roll, the more so if you, too, are in a woods hex, or there are some woods in the line of fire.

In that case, SireChaos, CrushU would need to roll 9 or better (with 2d6) to hit your 'Mech if your 'Mech had no cover. That's a 27.777 % chance that each of his 5 Clan Large Pulse Lasers has to hit your 'Mech, which means that he is statistically likely to hit your 'Mech with at least one of the Clan Large Pulse Lasers each turn. If, however, SireChaos' 'Mech also had woods cover, then his 'Mech is statistically likely to not be hit at all. Which leaves the rather obvious question of just how SireChaos is actually going to defeat CrushU's ultimate 'Mech whilst SireChaos' 'Mechs are running around at long range with their +6 penalty (even worse if CrushU's 'Mech has any woods cover) to hit with their weapons due to range and their movement. CrushU's "perfect" 'Mech does have one slight weakness - his maximum weapon range is 20 hexes. If SireChaos was to use 'Mechs with longer range weapons like the Gauss Rifle, ER PPC, and Clan ER Large Laser, then, so long as he was able to keep his 'Mechs just out of CrushU's 'Mech's weapon range, SireChaos would be able to fire at CrushU's 'Mech until it was toast - it would be a LONG battle, though!

quote:

LarkinVB: "I don't understand a word of your BT chatter"

LarkinVB, considering that you co-made 'Titans of Steel: Warring Suns', how can that computer game contain so many of the rules of BATTLETECH if you don't know anything about BATTLETECH?

quote:

SireChaos: "Kinda off-topic, but I am sort of curious what those "perfect designs" for BattleTech are."

The following were my custom designs for the "perfect" 'Mech in BATTLETECH that I came up with back in the mid 1990's:

'Mech Name: Sniper
Mass: 100 tons
Technology: Clan
Walking MP: 3
Running MP: 5
Jumping MP: 0
Armor Factor: 288
Heat Sinks: 26 [52]
Max. heat/turn: 52
'Mech Cost: 10,412,000 C-Bills

Engine: 300 Vlar (19 tons)
Cockpit: (3 tons)
Gyros: (3 tons)
Internal Structure: Endo Steel (5 tons) (7 slots)
Armor: 288 (18 tons)
5 Clan Large Pulse Lasers (30 tons) (10 slots)
Targeting Computer (6 tons) (6 slots)
26 Clan Double Heat Sinks (16 tons) (28 slots)
========================================
(100 tons) (51 slots)

Armor Allocation
================
H 9
LA/RA 30
LT/RT 30
LT(R)/RT(R) 10
CT 44
CT(R) 15
LL/RL 40

Critical Hit Table
==================

Left Arm
========
2 Clan Large Pulse Lasers
3 Clan Double Heat Sinks

Head
====
Endo Steel

Right Arm
=========
3 Clan Large Pulse Lasers
2 Clan Double Heat Sinks

Left Torso
==========
3 Clan Double Heat Sinks
6 Endo Steel

Center Torso
============
Clan Double Heat Sink

Right Torso
===========
Targeting Computer
3 Clan Double Heat Sinks

Left Leg
========
Clan Double Heat Sink

Right Leg
=========
Clan Double Heat Sink

Design Notes: this 'Mech does not have hand actuators or lower arm actuators.
_______________________________________________________________________

'Mech Name: Punisher
Mass: 100 tons
Technology: Clan
Walking MP: 3
Running MP: 5
Jumping MP: 0
Armor Factor: 304
Heat Sinks: 31 [62]
Max. heat/turn: 62

Engine: 300 Vlar (19 tons)
Cockpit: (3 tons)
Gyros: (3 tons)
Internal Structure: (10 tons)
Armor: 304 (19 tons)
4 Clan ER PPCs (24 tons) (8 slots)
Clan Small Pulse Laser (1 ton) (1 slot)
31 Clan Double Heat Sinks (21 tons) (38 slots)
==========================================
(100 tons) (47 slots)

Armor Allocation
================
H 9
LA/RA 34
LT/RT 32
LT(R)/RT(R) 10
CT 46
CT(R) 15
LL/RL 41

Critical Hit Table
==================

Left Arm
========
2 Clan ER PPCs
2 Clan Double Heat Sinks

Head
====
Clan Small Pulse Laser

Right Arm
=========
2 Clan ER PCCs
2 Clan Double Heat Sinks

Left Torso
==========
6 Clan Double Heat Sinks

Center Torso
============
Clan Double Heat Sink

Right Torso
===========
6 Clan Double Heat Sinks

Left Leg
========
Clan Double Heat Sink

Right Leg
=========
Clan Double Heat Sink

Design Notes: this 'Mech does not have hand actuators or lower arm actuators.
_______________________________________________________________________

'Mech Name: Headhunter
Mass: 100 tons
Technology: Clan
Walking MP: 3
Running MP: 5
Jumping MP: 0
Armor Factor: 304
Heat Sinks: 29 [58]
Max. heat/turn: 59
Mass Critical

Engine: 300 Vlar (19 tons)
Cockpit: (3 tons)
Gyros: (3 tons)
Internal Structure: (10 tons)
Armor: 304 (19 tons)
3 Clan ER PPCs (18 tons) (6 slots)
Clan ER Large Laser (4 tons) (1 slot)
Targeting Computer (5 tons) (5 slots)
29 Clan Double Heat Sinks (19 tons) (34 slots)
==========================================
(100 tons) (46 slots)

Armor Allocation
================
H 9
LA/RA 34
LT/RT 32
LT(R)/RT(R) 10
CT 46
CT(R) 15
LL/RL 41

Critical Hit Table
==================

Left Arm
========
Clan ER PPC
4 Clan Double Heat Sinks

Head
====
Clan ER Large Laser

Right Arm
=========
2 Clan ER PPCs
3 Clan Double Heat Sinks

Left Torso
==========
4 Clan Double Heat Sinks

Center Torso
============
Clan Double Heat Sink

Right Torso
===========
Targeting Computer
3 Clan Double Heat Sinks

Left Leg
========
Clan Double Heat Sink

Right Leg
=========
Clan Double Heat Sink

Design Notes: this 'Mech does not have hand actuators or lower arm actuators.

"Your Squad sucks bosons!" - Professor Farnsworth (Futurama)

< Message edited by gazra -- 11/26/2008 4:25:39 AM >

(in reply to Thorgrim)
Post #: 23
RE: Jocks' initial attribute values & skill values - 11/15/2008 8:33:00 AM   
LarkinVB

 

Posts: 1887
Joined: 10/9/2001
From: Germany
Status: offline
quote:

1. Half of the Titans have names that are from 'Mechs in BATTLETECH (in my opinion, it is sacrilege to use classic 'Mech names like the Warhammer, Marauder, Battlemaster, Awesome, Behemoth, and Atlas anywhere else but in BATTLETECH!).
2. A lot of the default Titans in v1.2.1 of the game are not optimally designed.
3. The way the game determines the initial attribute values and skill values of new Jock recruits is so unfair!
4. The different weapons in this game are not balanced - some weapons (like the Light Meson Gun, Heavy Meson Gun, Neutron Blaster, E.M. Pulser, Black Ray Gun, Tesla Bolt, Plasma Gun, and Gauss Cannon) are much better than others!
5. The game allows you to custom design your own Titans.
The above 5 issues need to be fixed in a game-balancing patch before players can truly roleplay this game (or before I can, at the very least).


1. Rename them
2. Optimize them
3. Don't understand why this is bad.
4. This is new to me and I played about 500+ battles
5. Titan customization is bad and needs to be fixed in a patch ? I'm stunned.



(in reply to gazra)
Post #: 24
RE: Jocks' initial attribute values & skill values - 11/15/2008 10:51:50 AM   
Thorgrim

 

Posts: 2369
Joined: 10/11/2001
From: Portugal
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: gazra
I find it difficult to roleplay this game when:
1. Half of the Titans have names that are from 'Mechs in BATTLETECH (in my opinion, it is sacrilege to use classic 'Mech names like the Warhammer, Marauder, Battlemaster, Awesome, Behemoth, and Atlas anywhere else but in BATTLETECH!).
2. A lot of the default Titans in v1.2.1 of the game are not optimally designed.
3. The way the game determines the initial attribute values and skill values of new Jock recruits is so unfair!
4. The different weapons in this game are not balanced - some weapons (like the Light Meson Gun, Heavy Meson Gun, Neutron Blaster, E.M. Pulser, Black Ray Gun, Tesla Bolt, Plasma Gun, and Gauss Cannon) are much better than others!
5. The game allows you to custom design your own Titans.
The above 5 issues need to be fixed in a game-balancing patch before players can truly roleplay this game (or before I can, at the very least).


1. It's a tribute to BT, of sorts. Matter of opinion I guess. By half you mean about 80 or so? Did you count them? Should those words be removed from dictionaries, so that they're not accidentally used in other games?
2. The default database is not supposed to be an optimized db. It's mostly a compilation of solid designs, with variation in configurations and roles. It's also a "guide" on how to design titans. The fact that it is not an optimized db is an incentive for players to fire up the factory and work to optimize them and/or build their own, according to their playstyle. The Factory is a game within the game. BTW, BT official designs are nowhere near optimized...
3. Opinion.
4. Opinion.
5. Thankfully, and it rocks.
Maybe you just need to play it a bit more?

quote:

Reading the manual for this computer game gave me the impression that combat in this computer game seemed more ruthless than in BATTLETECH. However, now that I have actually PLAYED this computer game a bit, I now agree with you, SireChaos, that MechWarriors in BATTLETECH have a much greater chance of dying in battles. A single head shot by an AC/20, Gauss Rifle, or Clan ER PPC will instantly kill a MechWarrior. What was I thinking?


You might want to consider that it's actually intended If jocks would die left and right, you'd see everyone bitch about it.

quote:

Quite frankly, why a 'Mech would have hand and lower arm actuators in the first place is beyond me!


Well, when you'll want to pick something up from the battlefield (a severed arm to use as a club for instance), you'll find out

quote:

The following quote is from page 7 of the Revised Second Printing of 'BattleTech Technical Readout: 3050': "Each Clan warrior selects his own target, and it appears to be dishonorable to allow another warrior to help in a kill". SireChaos, if you were roleplaying Clan MechWarriors, then they would be dishonored for using such tactics.


You might want to read further into the BT storyline. This wasn't exactly followed by *all* Clans, and it even got dumped after they took several ugly beatings from the IS stravags. Also notice that the Clans started assimilating IS MechWarriors after the invasion, and not all of them followed strict Clan doctrine - Phelan Kell/Ward/Wolf ring a bell?
This worked well while the Clans had the technological superiority. The BT storyline got a little "out of control" after the invasion IMO, and the boardgame too as a consequence.


_____________________________

Iceman

(in reply to gazra)
Post #: 25
RE: Jocks' initial attribute values & skill values - 11/16/2008 4:33:59 AM   
gazra

 

Posts: 34
Joined: 10/17/2008
Status: offline
quote:

Thorgrim: "Should those words be removed from dictionaries, so that they're not accidentally used in other games?"

I realize that BATTLETECH copied some of the 'Mechs from ROBOTECH, and that the old Amiga computer game Steel Empire (also known as Cyber Empires) had 'Mechs named the 'Behemoth' and 'Titan' around the same time that BATTLETECH released the 'Behemoth' and 'Grand Titan' 'Mechs in 1992, so BATTLETECH isn't completely original either. But, to me, every 'Mech name in the BattleTech Technical Readouts 2750, 3025 and 3050 are sacred and should not be used anywhere else. How hard is it to come up with some new names for Titans that haven't been used before in other 'Mech games? Be creative and give 'Titans of Steel: Warring Suns' its own unique, rich universe.

quote:

Thorgrim: "BTW, BT official designs are nowhere near optimized..."

You don't need to tell me that. Isn't it pathetic just how poorly designed almost all of them are? At least the default Titans in this computer game don't suffer from that problem.

quote:

Thorgrim: "Well, when you'll want to pick something up from the battlefield (a severed arm to use as a club for instance), you'll find out."

With 5 Clan Large Pulse Lasers, 26 double heat sinks, and a targeting computer, why would you even consider making a club attack, or let an enemy 'Mech get within melee range of your 'Mech for that matter? I'd probably rather have a 'Mech that was able to flip its arms over than a 'Mech that was able to pick up a club and also make punch attacks without any penalties.

quote:

Thorgrim: "You might want to read further into the BT storyline. This wasn't exactly followed by *all* Clans, and it even got dumped after they took several ugly beatings from the IS stravags. Also notice that the Clans started assimilating IS MechWarriors after the invasion, and not all of them followed strict Clan doctrine - Phelan Kell/Ward/Wolf ring a bell? This worked well while the Clans had the technological superiority.

Thanks for teaching me about that, Thorgrim. I wasn't aware of that. What exactly are "stravags"? Do you mean ComStar's Com Guards? Or is it a derisive slang term used by Clan MechWarriors to describe Inner Sphere MechWarriors?

quote:

Thorgrim: "The BT storyline got a little "out of control" after the invasion IMO, and the boardgame too as a consequence."

I couldn't agree more! My favourite era of BATTLETECH is 3025, before the Federated Commonwealth and the Clan invasion detracted from the BATTLETECH universe's rich background.

< Message edited by gazra -- 12/13/2008 3:08:45 AM >

(in reply to Thorgrim)
Post #: 26
RE: Jocks' initial attribute values & skill values - 11/17/2008 1:28:30 AM   
CrushU

 

Posts: 120
Joined: 8/2/2002
Status: offline 		Pah!

Stravag is a term for anyone not of Truebirth. (Which means you're a Freebirth, aka, conceived naturally) As all of the IS are Freebirths, stravag applies to any and all of them. ;)

I like the Clans. I like their ways of combat. None of the silly wars, we use ordered Trials. :) Each Clan is reasonably distinct as well... Personally I like Ghost Bear the best. Only Clan founded by a married couple... Strong sense of ties to other Clansmen, unlike other Clans which consider Individuals to be unimportant.

As for arm flipping... Yeah. Generally being able to flip arms is more useful than the punching would be. (Penalties to punches for missing hand/lower arm actuators.) For the most part, hand actuators are included on 'Mechs for RP reasons. (Can't pick up things without a hand)

That Sniper is almost the exact same thing as the 5 CLPL mech that is so deadly... There's a specific reason they were put in the Torsos instead of the Arms... I can't recall what, though. It's *possible* they put less armor on the arms and armored the torsos heavier.

(in reply to gazra)
Post #: 27
RE: Jocks' initial attribute values & skill values - 11/17/2008 11:26:18 AM   
Thorgrim

 

Posts: 2369
Joined: 10/11/2001
From: Portugal
Status: offline 		The Bear RULZ!  

_____________________________

Iceman

(in reply to CrushU)
Post #: 28
Page:   [1]
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