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Low Altitude Exploit Fixed? - 10/13/2008 2:07:08 PM   
krupp_88mm


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Introduction (ME)
Hi everyone my first post... I have been waiting for this game for 3 Months!!! it's killing me, can't imagine what its like for u guys who've been here for 3 years LOL! Anyway I'm a huge fan of WW2 flight Sims and i played IL2 FB online until I broke 2 joysticks (I get pretty excited with spits on my tail),

OK to the point:
I played the original BOB game as the German Bomber Command

Summary:
I beat the game as the Germans every time simply by destroying all the power plants in extreme low level raids usually of bombers only, under the radar, i would completely ignore losses no matter how high they were even 100 percent losses at times, as long as the targets (power plants) were destroyed, i could easily destroy all the power plants in a bout 4-5 days and still have more than enough bombers left even with the high losses.. i was usually smart enough to avoid high losses.. but they were acceptable.

Detailed Summary:
My experience of the game was cheapened when i found out the low level bombing was overly destructive ,

1: I would exclusively target Power plants (including hydro-electric) and low level radar stations

2: I would be able to beat the game in about 4-5 days every time on a schedule something like this

DAY 1:
RECON: every possible power plant and low level radar station multiple times to ensure that i get through the clouds..
FIGHTERS: Send in massive fighter sweeps early in the day (everything i have at every reachable target) at about 2100m to shoot down as many barge balloons as possible
BOMBERS:
(RADAR ONLY)A few small surprise raids mixed in with the fighter sweeps at low altitude (2100m- 500m) exclusively at the low level radar stations

DAY 2-3:
RECON: every possible power plant and low level radar station, including the ones i already hit

FIGHTERS: Send in a few small fighter sweeps to keep RAF guessing early in the morining the rest of the fighters fly close escort with bombers wherever they can reach
BOMBERS:
(RADAR)Target all the remaining low level radar stations with or without escort.. take them all down bomb every single one twice with at least 2 raids of 20-30 bombers at extremely low altitude (500m-2100M)
(POWERPLANT) Bomb every single power plant within fighter range 2-3 times with 2 strikes of 20-30 bombers

DAY 4-5:
RECON: every possible power plant and low level radar station, including the ones i already hit

FIGHTERS: Send in massive fighter sweeps early in the day

BOMBERS:
(RADAR) all low level radar targets should be destroyed
(POWERPLANT) Bomb every single power plant with or without escorts at extremely low level altitude (2100M-500M) in groups of two raids of 25-40 bombers, even 100 percent losses are acceptable every target must be bombed, doesn't mater if they get home as long as they drop their bombs almost every time the power plants will be 100 percent knocked out even if only one group of bombers makes it through they should still knock it down to 80-100 percent at that low altitude.

DAY 6 beyond: should already be won

RECON: every possible power plant and low level radar station, including the ones i already hit

FIGHTERS: As needed

BOMBERS:
(RADAR) knock any low level radars down that come online
(POWERPLANT) Knock any power plant down that comes online or was not knocked out


BOMBER RAIDS DETAIL... 1:usually spaced out about 15 minutes at altitude of 500-2100 meters. Targets that I knew had high amounts of barrage balloons i would come in just above the balloon altitude and bring lots of escorts to help shoot them down, i would come in under the radar with close escort whenever possible.. this usually let me get in and out either without facing his interceptors or only having to battle them for a few minutes. often I would attack with no escort at all.. especially in the north where most of the hydro electric plants are located.. often my attacks would be suicidal with over 70 percent bomber losses i found that bombing these targets from such low altitude resulted in 40-100% damage every attack.. and two attacks of 20-30 bombers virtually guaranteed destruction... granted losses from AAA and barrage balloons were immense... and i usually lost alot of bombers.. As long as the radars are down most bomber groups will only have around 20-35 percent losses... a few unlucky ones will stumble upon British Fighter CAPs and will be butchered.. that's why i send them in raids of two.. if the first wave gets pounced usually the second wave will make it through to the target unmolested... the return trip is another story... Clouds are rarely a problem as I'm always flying below them 99 percent of the time, (whatever cloud ceiling is that day is an altitude I'm not flying above)but it didn't matter, since without out power, British industry halted, and i would usually have over 80 percent of power stations destroyed within 4-5 days.. the game would give me complete victory for completely shutting down British industry...

So here my Questions....
1: Did this low level strategy only work against AI.. because I only tried it against AI.. would a human player shut down this strategy right away?
2: Is low level bombing still extremely effective giving usually 100% destruction from a small group of bombers?
3:Is it still ridiculously easy to win the campaign in Britain using this cheap technique? and if it isn't has this exploit been fixed?

Respectfully Submitted,
-Jason

PS.. also i just thought of this.. it seems it would be a lot harder to pull this strategy if there was a chance German bombers were spotted by merchants or patrol boats when flying at such low altitude below clouds... is there any plan to somehow simulate a chance of planes being spotted over water.. as i believe i remember they can be spotter over land

PPS.. also that makes me think of how sweet this game would be if there were boats.. or convoys to bomb.. it would make it just about the sweetest game in all existance.. and i would probably buy two copies .. any chance??






Attachment (1)

< Message edited by krupp_88mm -- 10/13/2008 2:40:44 PM >


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RE: Low Altitude Exploit Fixed? - 10/13/2008 8:00:27 PM   
Hard Sarge


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interesting post

we working in that area right now

lol level attacks, should be much HARDer to get inland unseen now

in old game, most of the EPS sites were modern ones (those Hydros wern't there during the war), so lot more "real" sites, lot more sites, more defence

we looking to see how it stacks up


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RE: Low Altitude Exploit Fixed? - 9/25/2009 5:06:15 AM   
CarnageINC


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I thought I would bring this one out of the dead. Krupp had the same experience I had, so now that this baby is out is this an issue anymore?

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RE: Low Altitude Exploit Fixed? - 9/25/2009 7:37:04 AM   
JudgeDredd


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Will give it a try tonight

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RE: Low Altitude Exploit Fixed? - 9/25/2009 2:29:21 PM   
Hard Sarge


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Surprised Kev hasn't jumped in here with some of his many charts he detailed on this

it might work, but it is going to be very costly, and will burn out the LW very quickly

the trick will be getting in unseen, good luck there

from our tests, we think we made it very HARD to do

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RE: Low Altitude Exploit Fixed? - 9/25/2009 2:40:49 PM   
Nikademus


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the dreaded low altitude bugaboo. WitP had it.....still does. Interested in seeing if it can still be done while i save up my pennies for this one!

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RE: Low Altitude Exploit Fixed? - 9/25/2009 2:50:50 PM   
Hard Sarge


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what was worse, was the high Alt explot, anything over 32 K was counted backward, so if you could fly high enough, you were bombing from underground (and in old BTR, most of the FBs could make it to 32.5)



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RE: Low Altitude Exploit Fixed? - 9/25/2009 3:10:43 PM   
Nikademus


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our version of high alt makes sweeps even more overbearing than they normally are.

So with a low alt attack....in this game with it's real time tracking i'd assume that it would greatly multiply fighter interception rates as well as exponentially increase AA effect. (accuracy....ability to press home attack)





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RE: Low Altitude Exploit Fixed? - 9/25/2009 3:44:16 PM   
joey


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I think you have succeeded in making it difficult. I have been using a combine low (under the radar) and high strategy (high exploit) as the Germans, and I am getting killed. In the old game, it would have worked great, but no more.

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RE: Low Altitude Exploit Fixed? - 9/25/2009 4:07:01 PM   
JudgeDredd


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Just one thing...does it really "matter" if it's prevelaint? I mean...if you find an exploit in a game, don't you just steer clear of it so you aren't "cheating"?

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RE: Low Altitude Exploit Fixed? - 9/25/2009 4:08:01 PM   
harley


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quote:

ORIGINAL: joey

I think you have succeeded in making it difficult. I have been using a combine low (under the radar) and high strategy (high exploit) as the Germans, and I am getting killed. In the old game, it would have worked great, but no more.


Yeah, one of our testers was able to beat BOB40 in 4 days, though he used conventional altitudes. We put a lot of work into balancing it out. Low alt, pinpoint strikes should still be part of your strategy, but you can't win the battle with it.

The High exploit is gone - that was an original programming error from 1998/99...

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RE: Low Altitude Exploit Fixed? - 9/25/2009 4:10:35 PM   
harley


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quote:

ORIGINAL: JudgeDredd

Just one thing...does it really "matter" if it's prevelaint? I mean...if you find an exploit in a game, don't you just steer clear of it so you aren't "cheating"?


Good point, you're only cheating yourself in an AI game. In PBEM you would not get away with the tactic for long, though there were some factors that made it worth fixing just for PBEM.

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RE: Low Altitude Exploit Fixed? - 9/25/2009 4:20:17 PM   
Toby42


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quote:

ORIGINAL: JudgeDredd

Just one thing...does it really "matter" if it's prevelaint? I mean...if you find an exploit in a game, don't you just steer clear of it so you aren't "cheating"?



How about it JD, is this one a "Keeper"? It looks good to me!!!

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RE: Low Altitude Exploit Fixed? - 9/25/2009 4:39:47 PM   
Hard Sarge


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quote:

ORIGINAL: joey

I think you have succeeded in making it difficult. I have been using a combine low (under the radar) and high strategy (high exploit) as the Germans, and I am getting killed. In the old game, it would have worked great, but no more.


HeHe, great glad you are getting slaughtered (oops)

:)



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RE: Low Altitude Exploit Fixed? - 9/25/2009 4:42:25 PM   
Hard Sarge


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quote:

ORIGINAL: JudgeDredd

Just one thing...does it really "matter" if it's prevelaint? I mean...if you find an exploit in a game, don't you just steer clear of it so you aren't "cheating"?


but, if it is there, then, people do tend to use it, even more so, in a PBEM game

also, in these games, the AI does not to everything you say, so, you may think, okay, a raid under 8,000 ft is cheating, so I will make sure all of my raids are set to come in over 8,000 ft, and then the AI will stagger the raids as they fly in

but, yea, in a perfect world

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RE: Low Altitude Exploit Fixed? - 9/25/2009 5:20:11 PM   
Nikademus


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players always find a way. The golden rule. The more control a wargame is, the more chances a player can exploit things. Can't get em all.

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RE: Low Altitude Exploit Fixed? - 9/25/2009 7:33:43 PM   
JudgeDredd


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Hard Sarge


quote:

ORIGINAL: JudgeDredd

Just one thing...does it really "matter" if it's prevelaint? I mean...if you find an exploit in a game, don't you just steer clear of it so you aren't "cheating"?


but, if it is there, then, people do tend to use it, even more so, in a PBEM game

also, in these games, the AI does not to everything you say, so, you may think, okay, a raid under 8,000 ft is cheating, so I will make sure all of my raids are set to come in over 8,000 ft, and then the AI will stagger the raids as they fly in

but, yea, in a perfect world

If that's true, then I simply don't get it. Even more so for PBEM. I would NEVER cheat in a game if I found out it was an exploit of the programming, and I certainly wouldn't do it in PBEM. I can't abide cheating and I can't abide cheats. A level playing field...mano-a-mano...my mind against their mind...that's the way it should be. I have no time for cheats.

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RE: Low Altitude Exploit Fixed? - 9/25/2009 7:34:45 PM   
JudgeDredd


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Treale


quote:

ORIGINAL: JudgeDredd

Just one thing...does it really "matter" if it's prevelaint? I mean...if you find an exploit in a game, don't you just steer clear of it so you aren't "cheating"?



How about it JD, is this one a "Keeper"? It looks good to me!!!

I've not got too much time with it, but I owned the original Talonsoft Battle of Britain and loved it. The BTR added content has me salivating. Definitely a keeper for me.

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RE: Low Altitude Exploit Fixed? - 9/26/2009 1:03:17 AM   
K.Pooley


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Hard Sarge

Surprised Kev hasn't jumped in here with some of his many charts he detailed on this

it might work, but it is going to be very costly, and will burn out the LW very quickly

the trick will be getting in unseen, good luck there

from our tests, we think we made it very HARD to do



Sorry Sarge, I haven't quite caught up since it was released!


This time last year we discovered just how bad this problem was. We then spent the next eight months trying to fix it.

In September 2008 I discovered I could knock the Brits out in three days, using a combination of these sorts of tactics.

Time: 3 days
EP Damage: 92%
Ind Damage: 13
RAF Losses: 59
LW Losses: 154

So not only didn't it take long, it wasn't even very expensive either.

Over the next few months the team looked at many ways of making the bombing results more "realistic". We looked at ranges and load-to-range of the aircraft, crew morale, repair rate and the bombing model itself. Every incremental change meant more testing and more changes.

The graph below (thanks for the build-up HS!) shows the results of just a few of the games run to test progress. The dark blue one at the top represents that first three-day victory, while the orange one at the bottom is from a game I played in April this year. Although the graph only shows the first five turns I continued until turn ten before admitting defeat. By this time the LW had suffered badly both in terms of aeroplanes lost and abysmal crew morale, and EP damage had increased only a few %age points.

If you're going to try this I'd appreciate it if you could save as much data as possible so I can work out how you did it.







Attachment (1)

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RE: Low Altitude Exploit Fixed? - 9/26/2009 1:11:58 AM   
joey


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quote:

ORIGINAL: harley


quote:

ORIGINAL: joey

I think you have succeeded in making it difficult. I have been using a combine low (under the radar) and high strategy (high exploit) as the Germans, and I am getting killed. In the old game, it would have worked great, but no more.


Yeah, one of our testers was able to beat BOB40 in 4 days, though he used conventional altitudes. We put a lot of work into balancing it out. Low alt, pinpoint strikes should still be part of your strategy, but you can't win the battle with it.

The High exploit is gone - that was an original programming error from 1998/99...


I was trying to beat BOB long campaign in one week using high and low exploits. It used to work fine, but now I have lost more than 1/5 of the Luftwafte in 7 days instead. At that rate, in five weeks I won't have any planes left. A lot of pilot experience is lying in the fields of England.

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