Matrix Games Forums

Forums  Register  Login  Photo Gallery  Member List  Search  Calendars  FAQ 

My Profile  Inbox  Address Book  My Subscription  My Forums  Log Out

Mission types for Ships

 
View related threads: (in this forum | in all forums)

Logged in as: Guest
Users viewing this topic: none
  Printable Version
All Forums >> [New Releases from Matrix Games] >> War in the Pacific: Admiral's Edition >> Mission types for Ships Page: [1] 2   next >   >>
Login
Message << Older Topic   Newer Topic >>
Mission types for Ships - 10/6/2008 11:00:22 PM   
pad152

 

Posts: 2871
Joined: 4/23/2000
Status: offline
Any changes in the mission types for ships in AE?

In WITP I never saw a difference between PT and Surface missions, PT boats set to either with a range setting would try to attack during daylight(not a good idea), one would think PT's set to PT mission would only attack during night time phase.
Post #: 1
RE: Mission types for Ships - 10/6/2008 11:16:33 PM   
Shark7


Posts: 7937
Joined: 7/24/2007
From: The Big Nowhere
Status: offline
Or that PTs would actually use their torpedos when attacking?

I have seen PTs fail to fire their main weapon, the torpedo, yet close to slingshot range to shoot at cruisers with .50 calibre brownings far too often. The PT of course sinks without even firing its torpedoes, completely negating the players reason for using them.

_____________________________

Distant Worlds Fan

'When in doubt...attack!'

(in reply to pad152)
Post #: 2
RE: Mission types for Ships - 10/7/2008 1:43:34 AM   
Yamato hugger

 

Posts: 5475
Joined: 10/5/2004
Status: offline
PTs in the game are best suited for what they were best suited for in the war: intercepting barges. Send PTs in against surface ships and you are going to get them chewed up (I wonder why?).

If you are waiting for PTs in the Pacific, wait a little longer.

(in reply to Shark7)
Post #: 3
RE: Mission types for Ships - 10/7/2008 3:15:21 AM   
pad152

 

Posts: 2871
Joined: 4/23/2000
Status: offline
You want to explain the difference between the PT mission and a Surface mission?


(in reply to Yamato hugger)
Post #: 4
RE: Mission types for Ships - 10/7/2008 3:30:34 AM   
Yamato hugger

 

Posts: 5475
Joined: 10/5/2004
Status: offline
PTs were not built to go toe to toe with the Yamato. Yet some people seem to think that they should have the ability to do that. Surface combat missions ARE made for that. PTs are for interdicting unescorted light troop movements. They excelled at it in the war, they excell at it in WitP, and they excell at it in AE. If you are expecting a PT group to lay waste to 5 Kagero class DDs in a head to head fight, you WILL be disappointed.

(in reply to pad152)
Post #: 5
RE: Mission types for Ships - 10/7/2008 4:00:18 AM   
Shark7


Posts: 7937
Joined: 7/24/2007
From: The Big Nowhere
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Yamato hugger

PTs were not built to go toe to toe with the Yamato. Yet some people seem to think that they should have the ability to do that. Surface combat missions ARE made for that. PTs are for interdicting unescorted light troop movements. They excelled at it in the war, they excell at it in WitP, and they excell at it in AE. If you are expecting a PT group to lay waste to 5 Kagero class DDs in a head to head fight, you WILL be disappointed.


I think you misunderstand what I was pointing out.

I have no expectations of a PT boat doing anything other than being a target drone when up against capital ships. However, when forced into such a fight, they should at least launch their torpedoes, instead of moving in to knife-fighting range like they currently do. 'Shoot and scoot', not crawl and brawl.

_____________________________

Distant Worlds Fan

'When in doubt...attack!'

(in reply to Yamato hugger)
Post #: 6
RE: Mission types for Ships - 10/7/2008 5:19:22 AM   
Yamato hugger

 

Posts: 5475
Joined: 10/5/2004
Status: offline
Well, there are limitations. Yes, it would be wonderful if everything worked the way everyone thinks it should work. However, reality has a way of putting water on it. WitP has 1 part time programmer (and actually he has been taken off it to work on AE so WitP has zero support atm). There are limits to the code.

But lets say they do change it so PTs launch their fish at 20,000 yards. What are they going to hit? 10,000 yards? OK, 10,000 - again, what are they going to hit? 5.000? Lets face it, PTs arent going to hit anything ourside 1000 yards, the PT skippers know it. Why throw away good torps when as you say they have a chance to crawl into knife fight range and score a hit? Just because they get into close enough range doesnt mean they have a target for those fish either.

A PT caught by a surface group has 3 choices: 1) run away 2) try to get into range to do some damage 3) die.

(in reply to Shark7)
Post #: 7
RE: Mission types for Ships - 10/7/2008 6:55:38 AM   
Iridium


Posts: 932
Joined: 4/1/2005
From: Jersey
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Yamato hugger
A PT caught by a surface group has 3 choices: 1) run away 2) try to get into range to do some damage 3) die.


+1

I tend to think that PT boats would have a difficult time avoiding 5"+ shells from whatever ship(s) they might be closing on. Especially if in a relatively poor sea state.

1 DD vs a PT

5-8; 5" guns for a single PT to avoid while attempting to get within decent range for it's torpedos. I'd hate to think of multiple ships, not to mention the possibility of capital ships.

_____________________________

Yamato, IMO the best looking Battleship.

"Hey, a packet of googly eyes! I'm so taking these." Hank Venture

(in reply to Yamato hugger)
Post #: 8
RE: Mission types for Ships - 10/7/2008 7:12:59 AM   
erstad

 

Posts: 1944
Joined: 8/3/2004
From: Midwest USA
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: pad152

Any changes in the mission types for ships in AE?

In WITP I never saw a difference between PT and Surface missions, PT boats set to either with a range setting would try to attack during daylight(not a good idea), one would think PT's set to PT mission would only attack during night time phase.


Per section 6.1.11 of the manual, "Roles only exist to allow the computer to better refine its ship selection when creating a TF. A PT boat task force is always a role [sic] of a Surface Combat TF."

(in reply to pad152)
Post #: 9
RE: Mission types for Ships - 10/7/2008 7:47:25 AM   
pad152

 

Posts: 2871
Joined: 4/23/2000
Status: offline
Yamato this is the AE forum, I'm asking about things (some questionable things in WITP) and asking how they are addressed in AE. AE is the future and I really don't expect things to be fixed or changed in witp going forward but, addressed or looked at in AE.

I'm pointing out there is no difference between a PT mission and a surface mission (in the game). Is this the way is should work or is it broken?




< Message edited by pad152 -- 10/7/2008 7:54:14 AM >

(in reply to erstad)
Post #: 10
RE: Mission types for Ships - 10/7/2008 10:04:34 AM   
Yamato hugger

 

Posts: 5475
Joined: 10/5/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: erstad

Per section 6.1.11 of the manual



I stopped reading right here. Dont assume the manual is correct.

(in reply to erstad)
Post #: 11
RE: Mission types for Ships - 10/7/2008 10:06:35 AM   
Yamato hugger

 

Posts: 5475
Joined: 10/5/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: pad152

Yamato this is the AE forum, I'm asking about things (some questionable things in WITP) and asking how they are addressed in AE. AE is the future and I really don't expect things to be fixed or changed in witp going forward but, addressed or looked at in AE.

I'm pointing out there is no difference between a PT mission and a surface mission (in the game). Is this the way is should work or is it broken?



In AE, PTs (or MGBs et al) can not be put into a surface combat TFs. They have their own TF mission (called PT) that only PT types can be placed in.

Edit: ship limit 6 boats.

< Message edited by Yamato hugger -- 10/7/2008 10:07:13 AM >

(in reply to pad152)
Post #: 12
RE: Mission types for Ships - 10/7/2008 10:11:18 AM   
Yamato hugger

 

Posts: 5475
Joined: 10/5/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Iridium


quote:

ORIGINAL: Yamato hugger
A PT caught by a surface group has 3 choices: 1) run away 2) try to get into range to do some damage 3) die.


+1

I tend to think that PT boats would have a difficult time avoiding 5"+ shells from whatever ship(s) they might be closing on. Especially if in a relatively poor sea state.

1 DD vs a PT

5-8; 5" guns for a single PT to avoid while attempting to get within decent range for it's torpedos. I'd hate to think of multiple ships, not to mention the possibility of capital ships.


DDs (destroyers) are a shortened form of their original name, which was Torpedo Boat Destroyers. DDs should have an advantage against PTs since their original function was to destroy them.

(in reply to Iridium)
Post #: 13
RE: Mission types for Ships - 10/7/2008 10:39:10 AM   
Monter_Trismegistos

 

Posts: 1359
Joined: 2/1/2005
From: Gdansk
Status: offline
Actually destroyers were created to destroy torpedoboats (TB), not motor torpedo boats (PT), the latter being few times smaller and 1,5 times faster.

_____________________________

Nec Temere Nec Timide
Bez strachu ale z rozwagą

(in reply to Yamato hugger)
Post #: 14
RE: Mission types for Ships - 10/7/2008 11:55:45 AM   
spence

 

Posts: 5382
Joined: 4/20/2003
From: Vancouver, Washington
Status: online
quote:

5-8; 5" guns for a single PT to avoid while attempting to get within decent range for it's torpedos. I'd hate to think of multiple ships, not to mention the possibility of capital ships.



Just look how well the DD's did in the Gulf of Tonkin with Mk 54 5 inchers and a modern (for the time) fire control system (1964). What'd they sink? 10, 20 PTs?

In the game as well as IRL the PTs should fire their torpedoes which will mostly miss and the DD's should fire their guns which will mostly miss. The RL story is that although PTs didn't sink many DDs or other major warships the converse is also true: Japanese DDs and other major warships didn't sink many PTs either. The times Japanese fleet(s) of major warships engaged PTs, Naval Battle of Guadalacanal and Surigao Strait (3 seperate fleets of multiple "heavy ships" and DDs); IIRC the total number of PTs sunk was 1 and the toll paid to the (lots of) PTs was a single torpedo hit on Abukuma (which wasn't even the target).

(in reply to Monter_Trismegistos)
Post #: 15
RE: Mission types for Ships - 10/7/2008 12:45:08 PM   
Yamato hugger

 

Posts: 5475
Joined: 10/5/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: spence

The RL story is that although PTs didn't sink many DDs or other major warships the converse is also true: Japanese DDs and other major warships didn't sink many PTs either. The times Japanese fleet(s) of major warships engaged PTs, Naval Battle of Guadalacanal and Surigao Strait (3 seperate fleets of multiple "heavy ships" and DDs); IIRC the total number of PTs sunk was 1 and the toll paid to the (lots of) PTs was a single torpedo hit on Abukuma (which wasn't even the target).



Exactly my point though. You dont send PTs in against combat ships. If you do, dont expect to win.

(in reply to spence)
Post #: 16
RE: Mission types for Ships - 10/7/2008 3:49:06 PM   
Shark7


Posts: 7937
Joined: 7/24/2007
From: The Big Nowhere
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: spence

quote:

5-8; 5" guns for a single PT to avoid while attempting to get within decent range for it's torpedos. I'd hate to think of multiple ships, not to mention the possibility of capital ships.



Just look how well the DD's did in the Gulf of Tonkin with Mk 54 5 inchers and a modern (for the time) fire control system (1964). What'd they sink? 10, 20 PTs?

In the game as well as IRL the PTs should fire their torpedoes which will mostly miss and the DD's should fire their guns which will mostly miss. The RL story is that although PTs didn't sink many DDs or other major warships the converse is also true: Japanese DDs and other major warships didn't sink many PTs either. The times Japanese fleet(s) of major warships engaged PTs, Naval Battle of Guadalacanal and Surigao Strait (3 seperate fleets of multiple "heavy ships" and DDs); IIRC the total number of PTs sunk was 1 and the toll paid to the (lots of) PTs was a single torpedo hit on Abukuma (which wasn't even the target).


Which is kinda what I am drivimg at Spence. PTs should either fire their torpedoes at range and retire (getting lots of misses and not taking much in the way of return fire), or simply run outright rather than trying to engage a SAG at close range.

Now then, in my current game, schwartzkie has used his PTs very well against my transport TFs, and with good effect. The small PCs, PGs, and MSWs I'm forced to use as escorts for my cargo ships can't rip them to shreds and he has claimed several vessels.

What needs to change is how the PT TF reacts when it runs into a heavy SAG. They really should try to disengage or fire off their torpedoes at long range and disengage rather than going in to extremely close range. But that is just my opinion.


_____________________________

Distant Worlds Fan

'When in doubt...attack!'

(in reply to spence)
Post #: 17
RE: Mission types for Ships - 10/7/2008 5:35:43 PM   
Yamato hugger

 

Posts: 5475
Joined: 10/5/2004
Status: offline
But then you are talking about WitP also, not AE.

But in speaking of WitP, try putting less aggressive commanders on your PTs and they will "shoot and scoot". Just like sub skippers, the more aggressive they are the more they will press home their attacks. And aggressive commanders in the wrong place at the wrong time isnt a good thing.

< Message edited by Yamato hugger -- 10/7/2008 5:36:09 PM >

(in reply to Shark7)
Post #: 18
RE: Mission types for Ships - 10/8/2008 5:48:48 AM   
Dili

 

Posts: 4707
Joined: 9/10/2004
Status: offline
quote:

Exactly my point though. You dont send PTs in against combat ships. If you do, dont expect to win.


Why? they got some success in Mediterranean/Black Sea, some escorts were sunk, and even a cruiser HMS Manchester sunk while others were hit. This might due to doutrine and tradition(after all was Italian Navy that put PT's on the map).

(in reply to Yamato hugger)
Post #: 19
RE: Mission types for Ships - 10/8/2008 6:26:45 AM   
Yamato hugger

 

Posts: 5475
Joined: 10/5/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Dili

quote:

Exactly my point though. You dont send PTs in against combat ships. If you do, dont expect to win.


Why? they got some success in Mediterranean/Black Sea, some escorts were sunk, and even a cruiser HMS Manchester sunk while others were hit. This might due to doutrine and tradition(after all was Italian Navy that put PT's on the map).


And their losses were?

(in reply to Dili)
Post #: 20
RE: Mission types for Ships - 10/8/2008 7:32:37 AM   
Dili

 

Posts: 4707
Joined: 9/10/2004
Status: offline
Most of their combat losses were from airplanes but i have not made a comprehensive analisys so it isn't written in stone, it is my emperical opinion from many readings.


Edit:Okay i have read Ian Allan Italian Fleet checking for PT fates. There were only 2 losses to Naval gunfire up until Italian surrender. There were about 4 groundings and more than a dozen losses due to air attack.

< Message edited by Dili -- 10/8/2008 7:43:43 AM >

(in reply to Yamato hugger)
Post #: 21
RE: Mission types for Ships - 10/8/2008 8:29:29 AM   
Yamato hugger

 

Posts: 5475
Joined: 10/5/2004
Status: offline
Ok, so in 4 years of war, the Itialian MTBs sank 3 warships.

They attacked a merchant convoy from ambush like MTBs are supposed to do. They did NOT attack a surface combat TF doing it. Manchester was part of a supply convoy to Malta when she was sunk.

"Manchester took part in Operation Pedestal, an operation to supply the besieged island of Malta, and which cost a number of warships, including the loss of the carrier HMS Eagle. During the operation, on 13 August, she was torpedoed by two Italian Ms torpedo boats off Tunisia, killing several of her crew, and she was subsequently scuttled by explosive charges."

And in fact she wasnt sunk by the MTBs. She was scuttled because the threat of air attack was too high to risk trying to save her.

This doesnt exactly convince me that PTs should go toe to toe with surface groups.

(in reply to Dili)
Post #: 22
RE: Mission types for Ships - 10/8/2008 9:04:47 AM   
Dili

 

Posts: 4707
Joined: 9/10/2004
Status: offline
Well they did know that surface convoy was escorted by warships so?

Manchester took 2 torpedos and was at 30-45º, no engine power. Doubtful if it ever was possible to save it.

There was also hits in cruiser HMS Capetown in East Africa and Cruiser Molotov in Black Sea.

(in reply to Yamato hugger)
Post #: 23
RE: Mission types for Ships - 10/8/2008 1:46:32 PM   
Yamato hugger

 

Posts: 5475
Joined: 10/5/2004
Status: offline
Ok, so whats your point? These were ships escorting a merchant convoy (the Manchester had a relatively new crew having only worked together a few months). Im under the impression that you are trying to prove that PTs can shoot it out with surface combat TFs because they managed to put 2 holes into a CL with a rookie crew under the command of a merchant convoy officer. So please, if you DO have a point, please make it.

Edit: In a 4 year period of time no less. 1 CL in 4 years. And the hits didnt even sink it. They didnt abandon it to let it sink. They scuttled it meaning they were afraid if they did abandon it that it might float long enough for the axis to sieze it. So that makes me think it wasnt really that bad off. Maybe her screws were out. Hardly proves PTs were well suited to shoot it out.

PTs excel at what they were designed to do. Patrol areas in search of light naval forces and interdict supplies.

< Message edited by Yamato hugger -- 10/8/2008 1:52:03 PM >

(in reply to Dili)
Post #: 24
RE: Mission types for Ships - 10/8/2008 3:41:17 PM   
Dili

 

Posts: 4707
Joined: 9/10/2004
Status: offline
"You dont send PTs in against combat ships. If you do, dont expect to win."

That above is false. In some situations they can win. The hitting against Molotov and HMS Capetown were wins too. The trap that British DD's made to Haguro and Kamikaze was douable with PT's with radar or any other means of getting information if sea state and if in PT range. If we take airplanes out of WW2 i am of opinion that we would got an exponencial increase in number of attacks by PT's. They were very vulnerable to aviation, machine guns hit were enough to destroy or stop a PT.

(in reply to Yamato hugger)
Post #: 25
RE: Mission types for Ships - 10/8/2008 4:20:43 PM   
Yamato hugger

 

Posts: 5475
Joined: 10/5/2004
Status: offline
I see, so you EXPECT to win EVERYTIME because it happened 2 times in history. OK, you win. I cant argue with that logic

(in reply to Dili)
Post #: 26
RE: Mission types for Ships - 10/8/2008 7:02:21 PM   
Dili

 

Posts: 4707
Joined: 9/10/2004
Status: offline
Funny...since it was you that made an absolute statement in first place and i contested that.

(in reply to Yamato hugger)
Post #: 27
RE: Mission types for Ships - 10/9/2008 12:13:55 AM   
Yamato hugger

 

Posts: 5475
Joined: 10/5/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Dili

Funny...since it was you that made an absolute statement in first place and i contested that.


I said: You dont send PTs in against combat ships. If you do, dont expect to win.

And I stand by that. PTs will lose 99% of the time. Yes, once in a blue moon they can get their licks in and get out.

I said DONT EXPECT TO WIN. As in DONT COUNT ON IT. I did not say YOU WILL LOSE EVERY TIME. Contest it, I dont care, do what ever you want

(in reply to Dili)
Post #: 28
RE: Mission types for Ships - 10/9/2008 8:14:03 AM   
Dili

 

Posts: 4707
Joined: 9/10/2004
Status: offline
Well they hit more that got hit even against more powerful ships so how you find that 99% failure rate?

(in reply to Yamato hugger)
Post #: 29
RE: Mission types for Ships - 10/9/2008 9:11:42 PM   
JWE

 

Posts: 6580
Joined: 7/19/2005
Status: offline
Try using statistical analysis; it's very simple mathematics. #of sorties, # of contacts per sortie, # of weapons fired, # hits per weapon fired, etc, ad nauseum. You will find you have to add some .9's to the 99% figure.,

(in reply to Dili)
Post #: 30
Page:   [1] 2   next >   >>
All Forums >> [New Releases from Matrix Games] >> War in the Pacific: Admiral's Edition >> Mission types for Ships Page: [1] 2   next >   >>
Jump to:





New Messages No New Messages
Hot Topic w/ New Messages Hot Topic w/o New Messages
Locked w/ New Messages Locked w/o New Messages
 Post New Thread
 Reply to Message
 Post New Poll
 Submit Vote
 Delete My Own Post
 Delete My Own Thread
 Rate Posts


Forum Software © ASPPlayground.NET Advanced Edition 2.4.5 ANSI

0.316