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Slowing Movement as a House Rule

 
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Slowing Movement as a House Rule - 9/12/2008 4:58:41 PM   
John 3rd


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In the other thread regarding Melee attacks we have moved from that topic to this one. To keep things clear, I felt a new thread would make it easier.

Nemo has proposed slowing movement by 50% to change the speed of battle. If this was done then that would put Infantry/Artillery on a movement of 6 points and Cavalry at 12. This would massively slow down the pace.

Another thought was voiced to keep movement at game normal speed on roads. This could be interesting to reflect that speed was possible on the road but slowed dramatically once off road.

What do people think?

Ideas/Comments?


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RE: Slowing Movement as a House Rule - 9/12/2008 9:04:15 PM   
Ashantai

 

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I'd repost what I had in the other thread:

A change in the PDT might help. Change the line and dismounted cavalry movement, while leaving the column movement the same. It would slow things down, it's true, but that isn't bad in itself, I think.

There, that would enforce a change...and a considerable one too!

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RE: Slowing Movement as a House Rule - 9/12/2008 9:30:51 PM   
Nemo121


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what's PDT ???

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RE: Slowing Movement as a House Rule - 9/12/2008 10:14:16 PM   
John 3rd


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I concur...what is PDT?

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RE: Slowing Movement as a House Rule - 9/13/2008 12:04:30 PM   
Ashantai

 

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The PDT is the game file in the folder. It specifies everything from movement rates to command radii, and so on. It can be freely edited.

If you want, I'll run you through it. As a matter of fact, the hist-sdc site has a layout of the PDT which you can peruse.

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RE: Slowing Movement as a House Rule - 9/13/2008 2:42:13 PM   
John 3rd


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Can that be put onto this Thread and everyone look/contribute to the idea?


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RE: Slowing Movement as a House Rule - 9/13/2008 3:01:46 PM   
Plainian

 

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Rather than reinvent the wheel you would be better taking a home grown mod. There is a mod for Gettysbug which uses the Norris-Frost system. If I remember correctly the mod does the following -

reduce stacking (400-500 mx?)
reduce unit sizes (large units split into two smaller units eg 600 man Rgt become 2 x 300 men Rgts/Battlions)
movement rates reduced
time reduced
losses now in increnments of 10 men insted of 25

Possibly the Fire Table may have been changed I cannot remember?

Anyway the whole effect was to make it more difficult to melee with 1000 men versus 150 or whatever since stacking and unit sizes made it difficult to get overwhelming odds. Players also stretched out their Brigades into longer more historical lines, and also kept second lines or waves. Fire attacks became the main weapon and because of reduced losses (10 men per hit rather than 25) battle losses were probably a lot more realistic.

If you go to the ACWGC site (American Civil War Game Club) and the Cartography Office I'm sure you'll find it?

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RE: Slowing Movement as a House Rule - 9/13/2008 3:23:13 PM   
John 3rd


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I'm not sure if I want to get THAT carried away.  Has this work already been done and can it be used with the Matrix update?


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RE: Slowing Movement as a House Rule - 9/13/2008 9:38:56 PM   
Ashantai

 

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No, and you'd have to restart the game from the start. Editing the PDT can be done on the fly - so long as you have the exact same file, I believe.

I'll try and find that PDT reference.

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RE: Slowing Movement as a House Rule - 9/13/2008 10:22:26 PM   
John 3rd


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Cool.  Let us know when you find it.


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RE: Slowing Movement as a House Rule - 9/13/2008 10:30:35 PM   
Ashantai

 

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Hmm, here we go with the shiloh one. Here goes my attempt. Don't take it as gospel though.

2 - Version? Unused
The Battle of Shiloh, April 6-7, 1862 - Name, can be anything you want.
1 - First side
5 0 19 0 1 4 - Dawn (5am), Dusk (7pm), Hours of dusk, dusk visibility
20 60 - Minutes per day dawn & dusk turn, minutes per night turn.
40 8 25 - Number of strength points per hex (40*25=1000), Number of units allowed per hex, size of strength points.
2 3 4 6 - Union brigade command radius, union division CR, rebel brigade CR, rebel division CR
1 1 1 9 12 38 - Fatigue data. Loss from: fire, loss, melee, maximum, recovery at day, recovery at night.
12 24 12 10 - Movement for infantry, cavalry, artillery, supply
0 0 0 0 0 - Water movement
2 2 2 2 3 - Clear movement for: line, column, mounted cavalry, limbered guns, supply wagons
0 0 0 0 0 - Blocked movement
4 4 6 8 8 - Forest
3 3 4 6 6 - Orchard
4 4 8 0 0 - Swamp
4 1 2 2 2 - Town
2 2 3 2 3 - Field
3 3 4 6 6 - Rough?
0 2 2 2 2 - Path
0 1 1 1 2 - Road
0 1 1 1 1 - Pike
0 2 2 2 2 - Rail
1 1 2 2 2 - Stream
0 0 0 0 0 - Creek
1 1 2 2 2 - Hedge/Fence
1 1 2 6 6 - Stone Wall
2 2 3 6 6 - Embankment
0 0 0 0 0 - Cut
1 1 2 2 2 - Elevation up
2 3 2 - Changing facing for: Infantry, cavalry, artillery
2 2 2 - About face
4 6 6 - Change formation
1 - Infantry rear movement penalty
24 1 1 - Chance of losing ammo (1/24), Artillery ammo loss?

From then on it's weapon tables and stuff. You can work that out yourselves.


< Message edited by Ashantai -- 9/13/2008 10:31:15 PM >

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RE: Slowing Movement as a House Rule - 9/14/2008 2:06:04 AM   
John 3rd


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Are these the original numbers?  How do you actually modify them?  Nemo--we need some help here...


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RE: Slowing Movement as a House Rule - 9/14/2008 3:13:02 AM   
Ashantai

 

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They're the numbers for Shiloh, but they're exactly the same for Gettysburg.

All you'd need to change would be the movement allowance line.

It's really quite simple. Go into window explorer. Navigate to your BGG directory, then under GB subfolder you will see main.pdt That is the file you edit. Open it in notepad - not word, to edit it.



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RE: Slowing Movement as a House Rule - 9/14/2008 3:25:38 AM   
John 3rd


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OK.  That makes a lot of sense to an idiot like me.  I think I could do it.

The point of this Thread is to come up with a new set of costs to slow down ground movement. 

How about on Roads/Paths we go from the original set to this?
In March Formation:
Pike  Old--0 1 1 1 1  New--1 1 1 2 2
Road Old--0 1 1 1 2  New--1 1 2 2 2
Path Old--0 2 2 2 2  New--1 2 2 2 2

Get the thought?  What do people think for costs when in Line-of-Battle?  We could have some fun with this, settle on a proposal and then Nemo and I could try it starting at Dawn on Day 2 of Gettysburg.


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RE: Slowing Movement as a House Rule - 9/14/2008 8:03:27 PM   
Ashantai

 

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Don't change the first number - you don't want line units to benefit from road movement, so keep that the same.

Personally, since you're trying to change line movement costs, I'd simply add 1 to all line movement costs for clear, forest, orchard and elevation. That'd work. You could also increase the turning penalty.

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RE: Slowing Movement as a House Rule - 9/15/2008 6:26:37 PM   
Berkut

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Plain Ian

Rather than reinvent the wheel you would be better taking a home grown mod. There is a mod for Gettysbug which uses the Norris-Frost system. If I remember correctly the mod does the following -

reduce stacking (400-500 mx?)
reduce unit sizes (large units split into two smaller units eg 600 man Rgt become 2 x 300 men Rgts/Battlions)
movement rates reduced
time reduced
losses now in increnments of 10 men insted of 25

Possibly the Fire Table may have been changed I cannot remember?

Anyway the whole effect was to make it more difficult to melee with 1000 men versus 150 or whatever since stacking and unit sizes made it difficult to get overwhelming odds. Players also stretched out their Brigades into longer more historical lines, and also kept second lines or waves. Fire attacks became the main weapon and because of reduced losses (10 men per hit rather than 25) battle losses were probably a lot more realistic.

If you go to the ACWGC site (American Civil War Game Club) and the Cartography Office I'm sure you'll find it?


I like this idea quite abit - is it compatible with the Matrix re-release fo the games?

BTW, is the matrix re-release an all new engine, or is it just packaging up what is already there and selling it in a bundle? Is it a single point of entry for the program, for example?

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RE: Slowing Movement as a House Rule - 9/15/2008 8:16:47 PM   
Ashantai

 

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Are you sure they did a Gettysburg adaptation?

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RE: Slowing Movement as a House Rule - 9/15/2008 8:59:34 PM   
Plainian

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Berkut


quote:

ORIGINAL: Plain Ian



I like this idea quite abit - is it compatible with the Matrix re-release fo the games?

BTW, is the matrix re-release an all new engine, or is it just packaging up what is already there and selling it in a bundle? Is it a single point of entry for the program, for example?


A Norris-Frost variant just changes some of the parameters in the main game file (in gettysburg its probably called bgg.pdt?) which have been highlighted above. So yes it will be compatible. However since you are changing the pdt then ALL scenarios will be effected. Therefore you really need to set up a copy of the game files into new folders and run it from a new shortcut to the exe file.

No its not a new engine. Its a repackaged bundle which has all the latest patches and is Vista compatible.

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RE: Slowing Movement as a House Rule - 9/15/2008 9:25:29 PM   
Berkut

 

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Is it all bundled up programmatically though?

Meaning is there one executable that will run all the scenarios?

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RE: Slowing Movement as a House Rule - 9/16/2008 4:32:30 AM   
Ashantai

 

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The problem is, that you wouldn't be able to play your existing game at all. Several units have over 600 men, and the result is that these units can do nothing.

You're better having a gentleman's agreement to limit movement of line units, then next game you play, fiddling around with mods and PDTs. The last thing you want is to corrupt your save game.

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RE: Slowing Movement as a House Rule - 9/19/2008 11:59:50 PM   
John 3rd


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Nemo and I have been very busy.  We've decided to start a new battle and implement the new House Rules regarding Melee and Movement.  I figure this will help more as an example for readers and get some good commentary.


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RE: Slowing Movement as a House Rule - 9/26/2008 9:04:46 PM   
Halsey

 

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You can change the weather conditions for the scenario.
It'll change the rates for you.
Without all the pdt changes.

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RE: Slowing Movement as a House Rule - 9/26/2008 11:18:39 PM   
Ashantai

 

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You can't change the weather in the Talonsoft games, only in the HPS ones.

Even if these were the HPS ones, you'd still need to edit the PDT, and IMO, the weather config is much harder than the movement parameters.

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RE: Slowing Movement as a House Rule - 9/27/2008 3:18:58 AM   
Halsey

 

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You can edit the basic scenario's ground condition.
With the scenario editor can't you?

Sorry if I was unclear in my post.

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RE: Slowing Movement as a House Rule - 9/27/2008 4:12:18 AM   
Halsey

 

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My mistake.
Was thinking of the Campaign Series.

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RE: Slowing Movement as a House Rule - 9/27/2008 1:52:40 PM   
Ashantai

 

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Yar, I guessed. :p

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