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"Subtle and insubstantial, ... - 4/12/2002 3:27:11 AM   
Capt. Pixel

 

Posts: 1219
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the expert leaves no trace; divinely mysterious, he is inaudible. Thus he is the master of his enemy's fate."
- Sun Tzu [I]The Art of War[/I]

Can SPW@W model this aspect of combat? - You Bet!!!

Basic sneakyness -

Wanna sneak up on that Tiger and paste a bazooka round in it's side? - set up the situation first. The trick is getting in position without being seen.

Dispatch or supress as many enemy units around the Tiger as you can with other units first. You don't want them spotting you as you move in. Set the bazooka team's Opp Range to '0', and then move in for the kill.

The 'Opp Range =0' technique substantially improves your chances of getting adjacent without being spotted. This is true for all units, but scouts, inf AT and snipers excel at this (very small size). In my experience, anything size 3 or larger won't benefit from this method.

Don't want to reveal your postion prematurely? Only fire weapons that have a reasonable probability of success.

Every time you fire a weapon, enemy units are searching for your a##. Don't fire your bazooka AND pistol at the Tiger - use the 'C' key to select a single, most appropriate weapon for the attack. If you fire the pistol too, everybody gets another chance to spot you!

Using this technique, you can often kill several units without even being spotted. I do this with bazooka-armed Rangers all the time. Ranger appears - fires only the bazooka - three tanks destroyed - Range slips into the underbrush - never seen.

This applies to vehicular weapons and MMG/HMGs too. Vehicles don't generally gain a spotting advantage, but that secondary MG shot might just revive the crew already stunned by the main armament hit. You stun them, and then wake 'em up again with a weapon that probably has little or no chance of doing damage. Firing the infantry MMG/HMGs secondary weapon isn't usually useful either - fire only the MMG/HMG at ranges beyond ~200m.

Smoke and dust are your friends (?)

Are you advancing in two areas? - drop screening smoke in three or four areas. The more advancing columns he thinks he's dealing with, the less resources he can likely apply where the attack actually occurs.

After you've made contact, drop a few more smoke rounds in a couple of misleading locations. He may not press his attack if he believes your trying to provide cover for a flanking maneuver.

In your opening turn, pop smoke in random areas behind your own lines to obfusticate his locating your artillery units by their smoke plumes.

Is the terrain dusty desert? - drag a few branches behind our jeeps to create advancing columns of dust. If your opponent hasn't managed the skills of recon yet - he'd be prudent to consider that those three or four advancing dust columns might just be armor.

A savvy opponent will recognize exceptionally long dust trails (more movement revealed than any available armored vehicle might have)

An old indian trick to cover numbers is to travel along the same path. Move your Panzer platoon in a single or double column to misrepresent the number of tanks approaching in the dust. I believe that Bantha riders use this trick too.

Dust trails parallel to the front can also serve to interfere with the enemy's prying eyes. But they can also interfere with YOUR prying eyes.

Cover and terrain advantage - well these are just obvious. ;)

Visibility - advance with your scouts until you can just see (or be seen) within the visibility range - then back up one. You know where he is, but he can't find you.

Draw off Air strikes with cheap decoys. I dont know why, but Air seems to have a preference for selecting the cheapest, least useful targets. Surround your valuable assets with command cars, trucks or wagons. Unless she's managed to call in a strike right on top of your unit, the strike will wander in search of another target. Quite often they'll target the cheap truck or car.

** Warning ** Warning ** Warning **

The balance of this post is not intended for the faint-of-heart.
Consent from both parties should be obtained before using these tips. Anything else could easily be considered 'Cheating'.

Under-handed sneakiness -

"Why is that M4 Sherman only firing his 50cal?" - Could it be that what is actually firing at you during VCR playback is actually a jeep? That maybe has been renamed on the unit screen "M4 Sherman"? Heheh.

I recall a movie where the GIs buggered-up a jeep to 'diesel' like a tank. They ran the jeep back and forth on their side of the contested ridge trying to imply a platoon of Shermans were staging there. IIRC it worked pretty well, the Germans backed down.

Now consider that same jeep (very fast those little jeeps) drops behind the ridge, move a couple hundred meters along and then pops up again, takes a shot and disappears. Repeat ad naseum. A half-dozen jeeps can be made to appear as a company of tanks to the inattentive opponent.

"Those 81mm Mortars sure are pounding us hard." Sure they are - 'cause their actually my 120s. Why would I rename artillery? Well first - why not? Why should YOU know what my artillery park consists off?

But seriously, your laying in a nice smoke wall with your 155s which you plan to introduce to the enemy later. Rename them as 105s to lay the smoke. Now your opponent thinks "ah He has a battery of 105s".

Later when the again-renamed 155s come in to the party he'll think "He has 155s TOO? where did the 105s go? Where are they going to come in?"

If you really want to mess with him - change the names every other turn or so. (yes, I know - I am one sick puppy).

I did this in a PBEM recently. My US Engineers stepped up to the VHs, layed some mines and stepped back. On the next turn, I renamed them all US Rangers and attacked. I stepped back and renamed them US Engineers again. I did this 2-3 times over the course of 10 turns. The battle line was fairly stagnant, so I had him totally confused. "How'd you afford so much infantry?"

I once took a company of VG bicycle squads and renamed the GE Engineers. They move very fast and could appear almost anywhere on my front within a couple of turns. They weren't particularly combat effective - but my opponent kept seeing 'Engineers' appearing all over the place - He was paralyzed.

Is it considered Espionage if your swapping uniforms within your own army?

How about infiltrating Spec Ops that have been renamed as a unit present in the enemy force.

"Ya, ya - THAT is not the road to Bastogne - I'm not karin' what the signs say - you go left, Schnell!!
"Say --- didn't that MP look suspiciously Japanese?"

Of course when your Long Range Listening Posts appear in his rear area sporting the tag "Scottish Bagpipers" - he's gonna know something's not right. :p

I regularly rename my Hq tent "Just a tent" - I'm hoping it will throw of any deeply penetrating enemy forces.

British platoon structure often uses a discrete designation for the platoon leader - I personally don't like that - so I rename them the same name as the rest of the units squads.

I'll also occasionally rename all my units to a generic name like "Sherman" or "Halftrack" or "Infantry squad". So he doesn't know if that Sherman is an M4, an M4105, or an M4A3 76.

See, I don't think that a commander at the level I'm simulating would have access to the minutae of each battle combatant. More likely the report comes in over-estimating the enemy force.

".. spbzkk ... fzst..They got Tigers! ..spkk fzz ... Dozens! crkk sprkz ... Tigers are everywhere. And 88's!!" (It's probably a platoon of PzIIIs and a couple of 75mm ATG)

Any opponent has the option to right-click on an observed unit and read it's data sheet. So these renaming methods are of limited usefulness.

Some of these 'tricks' help simulate the 'Fog of war', and others are just down right irritating. hehe.

As another forum member posts as a tagline -

"The Art of War is deception" - Sun Tzu



How about you all? Any little tricks or sneakiness you'd care to share with the forum?

_____________________________

"Always mystify, mislead, and surprise the enemy, if possible. "
- Stonewall Jackson
Post #: 1
- 4/12/2002 4:13:47 AM   
Goblin


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Capt. Pixel,

While I have to say that your tutorial was enlightening, I do not agree with the renaming of certain units to trick your opponent. Artillery being chief amongst my disagreements. Hold on! Don't think I am insulting you, I am not. But the game assumes a fair amount of general knowledge of the actual 'troops', and it should be assumed that the Battalion HQ could deduce the correct calibre or the weapons dropping on its troops. Or at least close. Confusing an 8 inch with a 7.2 inch gun I can see happening.

Before anyone begins a 60 post argument on whats fair in the game, I think most of us know instictively whats ok and whats not. Even the Capt here put the renaming thing under the category of 'under handed'!

Remember, a person brand new to the game, and warfare studies in general, playing against a person renaming certain units, would not realize anything was wrong. His artificial 'soldiers' in his units are supposed to represent real, trained soldiers, spotters, and officers, and would at least give a somewhat accurate report to the CO (the new player). That is what the messages represent in the game. I am primarily speaking of artillery here.

On the plus side, the infantry renaming is just plain funny!! While I probably would not use it, I think it is a cool subterfuge. Mogami renames units, but he labels them accurately, such as E COMP/1st BATT (just example). This made the battle very interesting to me personally.

One other thing...

A commander shouldn't give away his secrets!;)


Goblin:)

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Post #: 2
glad you told me - 4/12/2002 4:44:45 AM   
El Vito

 

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It was enlightening but I won't be playing Cpt. Pixel. I prefer to fight it out honestly, not using game bugs to cheat and then use semantics and K-street legalese to justify it.

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Post #: 3
Consent Required - 4/12/2002 4:45:27 AM   
Capt. Pixel

 

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I would absolutely, in no way, condone those 'Under-handed' practices against an unwitting opponent. Renaming, particularly.

Nope. If you're not expecting this kind of behavior in your opponent, I would rank this as Unfair. And for those who care, I would never utilize these 'Under-handed' tactics in a game contest. Not without prior consent from my opponent. The other tactics, however...

I regard these renaming manipulations in the same light as C&C, ammo limitations, etc. (On or Off? - it's matter of taste).

I'm just throwing out some thoughts to the forum for ways to 'spice up' their battles. Kind funny to be bushwhacked by a 'Shrub Nellie' rather than the more mundane 'Sniper'.

Americans had a penchant for nicknaming their vehicles -
"Big Bad Momma blows 75mm hole in Sdkfz 251/1". Much more fun. You can see this in [I]The Raiders Ride to Work[/I] scenario.

I presented bits of my spice rack (but certainly not all!), in the above post. Mostly you've got SneakThief 101 there.

But I got to tell you, much like cooking - you don't use everything in a dish. Most times, small portions of a few spices are sufficient. Other times, it's best to use nothing at all. Particularly if you already have a reputation for that kind of thing. ;)

For future readers of this post - everything down to 'Under-handed Sneakiness" should be fair game and tactics in everyones Spice Rack.

Try 'em - Good Hunting. :cool:

_____________________________

"Always mystify, mislead, and surprise the enemy, if possible. "
- Stonewall Jackson

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Post #: 4
- 4/12/2002 4:53:37 AM   
Goblin


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Capt. Pixel,

Never doubted that you would clear it with your foe first! A lot of that was for any newbies who were reading it, and thought 'Hey, I'm gonna do that!'

I like turning my bazookas up to 200 PEN! Oh the laughs....;)

Goblin

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Post #: 5
- 4/12/2002 11:57:01 AM   
WhiteRook

 

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[SIZE=3]Well that is a most interesting post if I have ever read one Capt. Also scares the hell out of me! [/SIZE] ;)

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Post #: 6
Subtle - 4/12/2002 12:46:27 PM   
stevemk1a


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I guess us newbies should beware of all of you evil sharks!:)

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Post #: 7
- 4/13/2002 12:16:04 AM   
Capt. Pixel

 

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"All's Fair in Love and War"
-Tellulah Bankhead

(okay - I made that one up) :D

I edited my original post to forewarn gentle readers of their peril when entering the 'Underhanded Sneakiness' section.

I believe the only 'bug' that I capitalized on was the air strike thing. Frankly, this game has always been like that, and I consider this a feature. (incidentally, if you're not moving your rear area artillery around with cheap trucks, what ARE you using?)

I understand 'semantics' - but what the h#&& is K-street?

(Insults are much more effective when they're understood by the insultee) :rolleyes:

Those of you who choose to ignore the FIRST half of my post - you're missing a great opportunity to become a more effective player.

_____________________________

"Always mystify, mislead, and surprise the enemy, if possible. "
- Stonewall Jackson

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Post #: 8
- 4/13/2002 2:10:44 AM   
Goblin


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[QUOTE]Originally posted by Capt. Pixel
[B]Those of you who choose to ignore the FIRST half of my post - you're missing a great opportunity to become a more effective player. [/B][/QUOTE]

You are absolutely correct Capt. Pixel! Those are all valuable tips for new and veteran gamers alike!:)

Goblin

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Post #: 9
clarification - 4/13/2002 3:00:39 AM   
El Vito

 

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Maybe I misspoke when I called the renaming of units a bug. But the game is set up to show what is doing the shooting. Now maybe I don't agree that the enemy should see what is doing the shooting as far as unit type, but thats the way it is and I guess we have to live with it. Changing the names so as to disguise their real identities would not be in the spirit of fair competition. And if you admit to this I shudder to think what other atrocities you are committing. MUhahaha The first half of your posting was good general knowledge that a newbie should pay attention to, but to get into the other stuff is just opening up a whole new can of worms. I have played enough cheaters out there to know that quite a bit exist. Now there is another subtle way to be deceitful. Now I understand that deceit is a part of war, but this is a game function that should not be taken advantage of. You seem like a knowledgeable player, its too bad you would use these tactics to overcome your shortcomings. do you reload turns also? would you consider that reconnaissance?
As far as K-street, you'll have to look that one up. what you learn about that will enlighten you.
As soldiers don't make good politicians, I will now retire from this scrap, having defended "fighting the good fight". Cheaters never make it to Valhalla

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Post #: 10
- 4/13/2002 3:26:41 AM   
Mojo

 

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Hold on here guys. The good Capt qualified his post by saying that these things should only be done in the proper setting. If he played this stuff on me in our first pbem game, if we were playing for money or in a tourney or something I'd be frosted. If it was our 20th and we were friends I'd see the humor in it. Hell I'd try to find a way to tie a telephone pole to the front of a scout car, name it a Tiger and be buzzing around his flanks. It's a game and if both parties understand that what's the big deal?

I was ROTFLMAO at the trick about renaming a bicycle squad Engies and running them around.

I think accusing him of things that are accepted as outright cheating like reloading turns is unfair.

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If something's not working you might want to tunk it a dite.
Mojo's Mom

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Post #: 11
- 4/13/2002 3:59:34 AM   
Goblin


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Mojo,

I do think that if both people find it fun, DO IT!! And I don't believe that the Capt would do any of those dirty tricks without clearing it with his opponent! If his foe said 'OK', then it isn't cheating at all, its PLAYING. If I gave the impression that I was coming down on the Capt, I apologize. K, Capt?

Goblin

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Post #: 12
Re: Subtle - 4/13/2002 4:04:15 AM   
Goblin


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[QUOTE]Originally posted by willy
[B]I guess us newbies should beware of all of you evil sharks!:) [/B][/QUOTE]

Watch out during night battles, there's Goblins lurking in the dark! :eek:

Goblin

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Post #: 13
- 4/13/2002 5:09:54 AM   
AC

 

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Don't know exactly why, but somehow I feel like I have to support Captain Pixel. If this game is to simulate reality, and if in war it is reality that one opponent tries to deceit the other, than it should be possible to do so. I don't think that Rommel made a phone call to the Tommies such like this: "Ar, it's ok if we both use trucks with aircraft engines on it to simulate a Panzer Regiment?".

Just my 0,02 Euros.

AC

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"Tridentina, avanti!" General L. Reverberi leading his Alpini troops in the decisive assault on Soviet-held Nikolajewka, 26th January 1943

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Post #: 14
Conduct Becoming of a Gentleman - 4/13/2002 5:40:52 AM   
Capt. Pixel

 

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(Goblin - no sweat, I never took your comments in that light ;) )

Previous posts on this thread, however, only serve to confirm my heretofore unspoken position:

Although MOST of you are competent and honorable opponents out there in cyberspace, there are enough people who'd pull unethical crap like reloading game turns for 'reconnaisance', to make it NOT worth my while to enter into a PBEM match with someone I don't know. ('cause you know - I look for this kind of stuff, and if the numbers don't add up I start asking some very pointed questions.)

And the mere fact that many seem to [I]assume[/I] that these kinds of practices are occurring, without consent, makes it unpalatable enough.

I, fortunately, have a small group of local friends who enjoy playing this game in much the same manner as I do. With a Gentleman's agreement up front as to who, where, how much, which features/tricks excluded, and on and on. Since there'll be a new game next week, and the week after that, it's hardly worth cheating for a win. I learn more from losing, anyway.

Fear Not!! It's unlikely, in the extreme, that one will ever find Capt. Pixel looking for even MORE PBEM games on a BBS. Between buddies and the AI, I get as much SPW@W as I can stuff into a 24 hour day.

Would one be villified if he chose to deal a hand of 7-card Stud with one-eyed Jokers wild, while everyone else around the table only wants to deal 5-card draw?

I guess that might depend on how many Jokers he has stuffed up his sleeve. Muahahahahaha!

Poker anyone? :D :D

Seriously, you all make good points - to players new to this game, attend:

Tactics of these kinds can seriously disrupt a perfectly well designed game. Especially if one player is unskilled and/or unaware of these possibilities. Use them with caution and full disclosure to both sides.

I can pretty much guarantee that if you use them against unwitting/unwilling opponents - you're available opponent pool will dwindle rapidly.

A veteran against a green opponent using these tricks should be taken out and shot as a traitor to the game cause. But those in the 'HQ Inner Circle' can't tell me they haven't come up with 'Disinformation' techniques such as these.
::nudge, nudge:: ;) ;)

(i'm spending more time typing disclaimers and clarifications than I did typing the original post. Gonna have to get me a lawyer. ::sigh::)

_____________________________

"Always mystify, mislead, and surprise the enemy, if possible. "
- Stonewall Jackson

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Post #: 15
Dirty Tricks throughout History - 4/13/2002 6:03:46 AM   
Capt. Pixel

 

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Now here's some things to mull over -

The Trojan Horse - unfair? or mickle crafty?

Bet the Jerry's were real bent when Patton didn't land at Pas de Calais with his inflatable tanks.

What was the Jap designation for Midway Island? You know, the one with the broken water condenser.

Why was it that some traffic MPs had faint German accents during the Battle of the Bulge.

It's said that Rommel couldn't sleep at nights after using telephone poles and brush dragging kubelwagens to mislead British aerial recon into believing he really DID have tanks. (I think he might have been ashamed over what he did to Tommy)

I've said it before, I'm no historian. But many of you are. Any good 'Gotcha' stories out there you'd like to share?

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"Always mystify, mislead, and surprise the enemy, if possible. "
- Stonewall Jackson

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Post #: 16
- 4/13/2002 6:57:40 AM   
Goblin


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How about the doll paras dropped into France on D-Day! Barbie strikes for the Allies!:p

Goblin

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Post #: 17
- 4/13/2002 7:20:15 AM   
Mojo

 

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[QUOTE]Originally posted by Goblin
[B]Mojo,

I do think that if both people find it fun, DO IT!! And I don't believe that the Capt would do any of those dirty tricks without clearing it with his opponent! If his foe said 'OK', then it isn't cheating at all, its PLAYING. If I gave the impression that I was coming down on the Capt, I apologize. K, Capt?

Goblin [/B][/QUOTE]

It wan't you oh Homely Green One and hater of all tanks Sherman-like. I got the impression that you "got" it.

I can tell you're not a "playah haita":D

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Post #: 18
Jedi Mind-trick - 4/13/2002 7:32:51 AM   
El Vito

 

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I have heard stories about US GI's using Jedi mind-tricks to make the Germans think the jeeps they are seeing are actually Shermans. and also bicycling Volksgrenadiers to appear to be flame-thrower toting Engineers.

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Post #: 19
- 4/13/2002 8:44:41 AM   
Goblin


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[QUOTE]Originally posted by Mojo
[B]

It wan't you oh Homely Green One and hater of all tanks Sherman-like.D [/B][/QUOTE]

Homely?! Hey now, I'm an exceptionally tall and sexy goblin, and all the ugliest girl goblins go nuts over me! I don't hate Shermans! Well, mostly I don't, but Jess is funny as he## when he gets up in arms about it!

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Post #: 20
- 4/14/2002 12:41:23 AM   
Capt. Pixel

 

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"These aren't the droids, er uh, Rangers you're looking for."

(yeah, that'd work :p )

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- Stonewall Jackson

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Post #: 21
- 4/15/2002 3:16:57 AM   
WhiteRook

 

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Aye, Capt. you are correct! Don't sweat it - I think you have represented your point very well....
What transpires between friends in the gaming area is just a whole WORLD apart from the general gaming community!

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Post #: 22
The Ultimate - 4/18/2002 2:47:54 AM   
Capt. Pixel

 

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"The ultimate in disposing one's troops is to be without ascertainable shape. Then the most penetrating spies cannot pry in nor can the wise lay plans against you."

-Sun Tzu

Now, you know THIS guy was nobody's fool!

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- Stonewall Jackson

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Post #: 23
Funny stuff :) - 4/18/2002 1:46:02 PM   
zaxilon

 

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I tend to agree with a lot of your logic and your ideas were pretty funny reading. I have been a gamer for many decades. Had many decades with board games and micro armor miniatures on sand tables before the personal computer came about.

Haveing actually been under fire and seen some combat I can tell you that it is quite rare in my experience that you would know much of the information you can glean via the game mechanics. For example wether it is the 1st squad or the 3rd squad of the 2nd Plt or the 3rd Plt unless you were slapping yourselves around with E-tools. Even then I dont think you would be trying to figure out which squad you were up against. Just a point I was compelled to make for many of the gamers out there.

I can tell you that as to which weapons are being used against you, you would most likely have a pretty accurate idea of just exactly what was being brought to bear. Especially with respect to any kind of artillery. There is a big difference between 60mm and 80mm mortars as well as 105's and 155's that even them most dim witted grunt could readily discern. The same is pretty much true for small arms of a rifle squad variety or crew served weapons.

IMHO, the problem with gaming is that you have a very accurate idea of how accurate your intel is. Which defeats the fog of war aspect which should keep you honest. I dont mean you Capt. Pixel, I mean keeping your tactics honest with the situation. So I do agree with what I think you are trying to say here. I dont have a problem with somebody changing the names, hey if I am slow enough to not catch it then I earned the bushwhack.

I would like to see the fog of war aspect greatly enhanced in SPWAW. I think it adds flavor to gaming.

Later,
Zaxilon :D

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Post #: 24
Re: Dirty Tricks throughout History - 4/19/2002 1:25:08 AM   
Tommy

 

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[QUOTE]Originally posted by Capt. Pixel
[B]Now here's some things to mull over -

..snip..

It's said that Rommel couldn't sleep at nights after using telephone poles and brush dragging kubelwagens to mislead British aerial recon into believing he really DID have tanks. (I think he might have been ashamed over what he did to Tommy)

[/B][/QUOTE]

Now hold on there Gents! What I and FM Rommel did in that tent that night was perfectly honourable. It, in no way, involved the improper use of telephone poles. Although the presence of that many sheep certainly raised a few eyebrows; wink wink, nudge nudge.;)

Tommy

"The British Navy - where the Men are Men and the sheep are nervous" John Belushi

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Post #: 25
- 4/19/2002 1:40:53 AM   
Goblin


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Tommy,

I don't believe you guys have anything to be ashamed of! You were training the sheep for action 'behind' enemy lines, right?:eek: ;)

Goblin

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Post #: 26
- 4/19/2002 2:32:33 AM   
panda124c

 

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From: Houston, TX, USA
Status: offline
You forgot one underhanded trick. In the desert if you move a vehical it leave a dust trail, if you cancel the movement the dust trail remains and the vehical returns to it's original position. So you could take a couple of trucks and make it look like the entire German Army is approaching. Well they will not let me mount aircraft engines with propellers on trucks so I do what I can.
:D :D

(in reply to Capt. Pixel)
Post #: 27
- 4/20/2002 2:09:58 AM   
AJVa


Posts: 69
Joined: 1/17/2001
From: SF
Status: offline
[QUOTE]Originally posted by pbear
[B]... if you cancel the movement the dust trail remains and the vehical returns to it's original position...
:D :D [/B][/QUOTE]

Oh yeah... and you could use it as a teleporter, but that would be cheating... right? :rolleyes: :D

(in reply to Capt. Pixel)
Post #: 28
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