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California Climate Zone - 8/26/2008 2:58:26 AM   
Mike Dubost

 

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First, let me start by saying that this is not intended as a criticism of the enormous effort put in so far. I really like what I see here of the comming product.

However, in the interests of perfectionism, can we place California in the Mediteranian climate zone where it belongs. I have played a few games of CWiF, and I roll my eyes when I place units on the West Coast during the winter. As a 39 year old native of the Golden State, I can still count on the fingers of 1 hand the number of times I have experienced sea level snowfall. With San Francisco in the North Temperate zone, this happens pretty much every winter in the game, but it is almost unheard of in real life.

The hexes between the Sierra Nevada, the ocean, the Mexican border, and a line about 1 to 2 hexes north of Sacramento should be in the Med. zone.

I will admit that this has limited impact on the game, but I could picture (say) an incautious US player finding fast carrier task forces out of the Marshalls lauching port attacks on L.A.

I do understand that I am rather late to the party with this suggestion, and I will not condemn the game if it can't be implemented. (I expect to be too busy playing it to spend the effort!) However, I am, as implied above a bit of a perfectionist. I guess that happens to those of us in QA .
Post #: 1
RE: California Climate Zone - 8/26/2008 10:50:07 AM   
Froonp


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mike Dubost

First, let me start by saying that this is not intended as a criticism of the enormous effort put in so far. I really like what I see here of the comming product.

However, in the interests of perfectionism, can we place California in the Mediteranian climate zone where it belongs. I have played a few games of CWiF, and I roll my eyes when I place units on the West Coast during the winter. As a 39 year old native of the Golden State, I can still count on the fingers of 1 hand the number of times I have experienced sea level snowfall. With San Francisco in the North Temperate zone, this happens pretty much every winter in the game, but it is almost unheard of in real life.

The hexes between the Sierra Nevada, the ocean, the Mexican border, and a line about 1 to 2 hexes north of Sacramento should be in the Med. zone.

I will admit that this has limited impact on the game, but I could picture (say) an incautious US player finding fast carrier task forces out of the Marshalls lauching port attacks on L.A.

I do understand that I am rather late to the party with this suggestion, and I will not condemn the game if it can't be implemented. (I expect to be too busy playing it to spend the effort!) However, I am, as implied above a bit of a perfectionist. I guess that happens to those of us in QA .

Are there other Californians here that would support this ? I seem to remember someone who asked something like that for Los Angeles, but I had not written in down on my list of propsed changes at the time.

To go in your way, on the WiF FE America map (AiF map indeed), nearly all California is desert hexes or desert mountain hexes (only San Francisco, Oakland and Sacramento are in non desert hexes), thus the North Temperate Weather Zone has its effects reduced because of that.

But on the MWiF map, with the European Scale has no more of these coastal desert and desert mountain hexes. Only inland places have desert and desert mountain hexes. So your demand may be needed indeed now that the North Temperate Weather zone's weather effects are no more reduced by the desert hexes.

(in reply to Mike Dubost)
Post #: 2
RE: California Climate Zone - 8/26/2008 3:08:14 PM   
micheljq


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I am not californian but french canadian. We Quebecers all know southern USA has a very hot climate, no winter there except in the rocky mountains.

Look at Florida, Louisiana, Texas, California, all at the same latitude. They have palm tress and tropical climate. Florida is invaded by old quebecers who flee their cold homes in winter to pass it in Florida, +27e celcius in january in Florida while it's minus 30e celcius in Quebec.

Florida and Louisiana are not desert hexes.



< Message edited by micheljq -- 8/26/2008 3:10:07 PM >

(in reply to Froonp)
Post #: 3
RE: California Climate Zone - 8/26/2008 4:09:30 PM   
lomyrin


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Froonp

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mike Dubost

First, let me start by saying that this is not intended as a criticism of the enormous effort put in so far. I really like what I see here of the comming product.

However, in the interests of perfectionism, can we place California in the Mediteranian climate zone where it belongs. I have played a few games of CWiF, and I roll my eyes when I place units on the West Coast during the winter. As a 39 year old native of the Golden State, I can still count on the fingers of 1 hand the number of times I have experienced sea level snowfall. With San Francisco in the North Temperate zone, this happens pretty much every winter in the game, but it is almost unheard of in real life.

The hexes between the Sierra Nevada, the ocean, the Mexican border, and a line about 1 to 2 hexes north of Sacramento should be in the Med. zone.

I will admit that this has limited impact on the game, but I could picture (say) an incautious US player finding fast carrier task forces out of the Marshalls lauching port attacks on L.A.

I do understand that I am rather late to the party with this suggestion, and I will not condemn the game if it can't be implemented. (I expect to be too busy playing it to spend the effort!) However, I am, as implied above a bit of a perfectionist. I guess that happens to those of us in QA .

Are there other Californians here that would support this ? I seem to remember someone who asked something like that for Los Angeles, but I had not written in down on my list of propsed changes at the time.

To go in your way, on the WiF FE America map (AiF map indeed), nearly all California is desert hexes or desert mountain hexes (only San Francisco, Oakland and Sacramento are in non desert hexes), thus the North Temperate Weather Zone has its effects reduced because of that.

But on the MWiF map, with the European Scale has no more of these coastal desert and desert mountain hexes. Only inland places have desert and desert mountain hexes. So your demand may be needed indeed now that the North Temperate Weather zone's weather effects are no more reduced by the desert hexes.


I do not believe it make much difference to the game but living in San Diego certainly makes me support the idea of a temperature zone change for the California coastal areas.

Lars


(in reply to Froonp)
Post #: 4
RE: California Climate Zone - 8/26/2008 4:45:09 PM   
composer99


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On the America in Flames map, Forida is in the Northern Monsoon zone (and most of the Gulf Coast states should be as well, until you go a few hexrows inland in Texas). I would agree with a change in southern California's climate band. Possibly a small band along the southern US and northern Mexico should be changed as well to the Meditteranean climate type until it meets the Gulf Coast Northern Monsoon area.

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Post #: 5
RE: California Climate Zone - 8/26/2008 4:47:20 PM   
ajds

 

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Patrice, I have lived in Southern California all my life (except for college in Texas and New York), and I agree that Mediterranean is more appropriate for the indicated western portions of the state.  Blizzard never, snow extremely rare, so the North Temperate effects aren't really applicable.  There are hardly any seasons in Southern California.

(in reply to lomyrin)
Post #: 6
RE: California Climate Zone - 8/26/2008 4:59:58 PM   
Norman42


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Agreed.  Southern California should be Med zone.

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Post #: 7
RE: California Climate Zone - 8/26/2008 5:38:23 PM   
Froonp


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I looked at precipitations map for Mexico and the United States, and this would look like that.
What would you think of that adjustement.






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< Message edited by Froonp -- 8/26/2008 5:50:54 PM >

(in reply to Norman42)
Post #: 8
RE: California Climate Zone - 8/26/2008 7:04:19 PM   
Shannon V. OKeets

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Froonp

I looked at precipitations map for Mexico and the United States, and this would look like that.
What would you think of that adjustement.






For those who might be wondering, this makes no difference in writing the code - it is just map data. There is a line in the tutorials about the Med Zone only appearing in the Med, but that is easy enough to reword.

You might want to research having this new piece of Med range farther north and west. It seems a little strange to not have the sea area weather zone match the coastal hexes they border.

Having the Carribean coast remain monsoon is certainly correct, there are frequent hurricanes through that region (e.g., Florida) every year. There just was one in the last month and another is looming off-shore. Katrina got a lot of press coverage worldwide too a couple of years ago. And there are several songs about a hurricane that hit Galveston in 1900.

Northern Texas gets a lot of snow and so do the higher elevations of New Mexico. I don't think this Med region should extend any farther east than you have shown it.

And to the south there are hurricanes that come out of the waters west of Mexico which proceed west/northwest every year. It is rare for them to make it as far as Hawaii, though that has occurred once in the last 25 years. So that area should stay monsoon.

_____________________________

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Perfection is an elusive goal.

(in reply to Froonp)
Post #: 9
RE: California Climate Zone - 8/26/2008 7:12:49 PM   
Froonp


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets
You might want to research having this new piece of Med range farther north and west. It seems a little strange to not have the sea area weather zone match the coastal hexes they border.

I've researched that (north) and don't want to change the weather in the West Coast Sea Area, as it is vastly larger than simply the California Coast. It is also coastal to the Washington and Oregon States, and to Vancouver. I prefer leaving it as is.
Making California Mediterannean just replace the fact that in WiF FE it is mainly desert and desert mountains, thus drying up the weather, and that in MWiF it is not.

quote:

Having the Carribean coast remain monsoon is certainly correct, there are frequent hurricanes through that region (e.g., Florida) every year. There just was one in the last month and another is looming off-shore. Katrina got a lot of press coverage worldwide too a couple of years ago. And there are several songs about a hurricane that hit Galveston in 1900.

Northern Texas gets a lot of snow and so do the higher elevations of New Mexico. I don't think this Med region should extend any farther east than you have shown it.

And to the south there are hurricanes that come out of the waters west of Mexico which proceed west/northwest every year. It is rare for them to make it as far as Hawaii, though that has occurred once in the last 25 years. So that area should stay monsoon.

I think I prefer leaving the rest as it is.
This is not a revamping of the Weather Zones in the USA and around, this is a little touch up that only concerns southern California.

(in reply to Shannon V. OKeets)
Post #: 10
RE: California Climate Zone - 8/26/2008 10:51:11 PM   
ajds

 

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The proposed California Med weather area looks great to me - an added incentive for long range Japanese divisional invasions (to get to decent weather!).

(in reply to Froonp)
Post #: 11
RE: California Climate Zone - 8/27/2008 12:07:34 AM   
brian brian

 

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There are Mediterranean weather zone hexes in Africa and India as well...

(in reply to ajds)
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RE: California Climate Zone - 8/27/2008 12:48:36 AM   
Jim D Burns


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Froonp

Are there other Californians here that would support this ?


I live in central California about 50 miles south of Sacramento, and grew up in the Bay Area. I would strongly support this change, but I’d say move the proposed zone north to the hexes just below Eureka (the three hexes just west of your northern most current hex). Napa Valley is one big vineyard, and north of that is some of the most beautiful Redwood forests on earth, neither of these could exist in any kind of severe winter climates.

Though that coastal region I mention may get a light dusting of snow once in a blue moon, no way would the weather ever be severe enough to merit snow effects at any time of year.

I’d also recommend moving the North Temperate region to be at least 2 or 3 hexes north of Vegas in the desert hexes. Vegas is HOT, I doubt it ever snows there.

Jim


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RE: California Climate Zone - 8/27/2008 2:48:56 AM   
Mike Dubost

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Jim D Burns

quote:

ORIGINAL: Froonp

Are there other Californians here that would support this ?


I live in central California about 50 miles south of Sacramento, and grew up in the Bay Area. I would strongly support this change, but I’d say move the proposed zone north to the hexes just below Eureka (the three hexes just west of your northern most current hex). Napa Valley is one big vineyard, and north of that is some of the most beautiful Redwood forests on earth, neither of these could exist in any kind of severe winter climates.

Though that coastal region I mention may get a light dusting of snow once in a blue moon, no way would the weather ever be severe enough to merit snow effects at any time of year.

I’d also recommend moving the North Temperate region to be at least 2 or 3 hexes north of Vegas in the desert hexes. Vegas is HOT, I doubt it ever snows there.

Jim



I like the change as proposed here. I am less familiar with Vegas weather, so I will bow to those with greater experience.

Thanks for willingness to listen to opinions. I hope I did not come accross as too demanding.

(in reply to Jim D Burns)
Post #: 14
RE: California Climate Zone - 8/27/2008 3:20:30 AM   
Griffitz62


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I am also a California native (grew up in the San Francisco Bay Area and currently live in San Diego). I've travelled the state a lot in my 40 years and would completely support the ideas propsed here. I especially agree with Jim about pushing the zone closer to Eureka. I have family that lives north of SF and go there often, so I get to experience the weather there throughout the year. It doesn't snow unless you move farther inland towards the Sierra Mountains.

(in reply to Mike Dubost)
Post #: 15
RE: California Climate Zone - 8/27/2008 12:11:29 PM   
Froonp


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Jim D Burns
I live in central California about 50 miles south of Sacramento, and grew up in the Bay Area. I would strongly support this change, but I’d say move the proposed zone north to the hexes just below Eureka (the three hexes just west of your northern most current hex). Napa Valley is one big vineyard, and north of that is some of the most beautiful Redwood forests on earth, neither of these could exist in any kind of severe winter climates.

About this, being in the North Temperate Weather Zone does not mean severe winter climate. This is the climate of all Europe up to Poland and England. That's not that harsh. Moreover, here is an abstract from a precipitation map around California and Nevada, and we can see that the area in those mountains is as wet as the Sierra Nevada, so I prefer leaving the boundary where I put it initialy.

quote:

Though that coastal region I mention may get a light dusting of snow once in a blue moon, no way would the weather ever be severe enough to merit snow effects at any time of year.

I’d also recommend moving the North Temperate region to be at least 2 or 3 hexes north of Vegas in the desert hexes. Vegas is HOT, I doubt it ever snows there.

About the Nevada I agree. This is the dryest state in the USA, so maybe it should be nearly all included in the North Temperate Weather Zone, which combined with the desert hexes makes for a very dry area.




Attachment (1)

(in reply to Jim D Burns)
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RE: California Climate Zone - 8/27/2008 12:16:04 PM   
Froonp


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Look also at that, it snows in Nevada.
Complete maps can be found here : http://www.lib.utexas.edu/maps/national_atlas_1970.html




Attachment (1)

(in reply to Froonp)
Post #: 17
RE: California Climate Zone - 8/27/2008 12:37:20 PM   
Froonp


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At the light of the recent discussions, here is my proposal for the Weather Zone around California & Nevada.




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Post #: 18
RE: California Climate Zone - 8/27/2008 2:05:31 PM   
wfzimmerman


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While we're lobbying for weather zones, how about a special Michigan weather zone that's never the same two impulses in a row.

I am in the hex west of Detroit. ;-)

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Post #: 19
RE: California Climate Zone - 8/27/2008 4:21:03 PM   
Norman42


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Froonp

At the light of the recent discussions, here is my proposal for the Weather Zone around California & Nevada.





This looks good, Patrice.


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Post #: 20
RE: California Climate Zone - 8/27/2008 5:17:40 PM   
Jim D Burns


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Froonp
About this, being in the North Temperate Weather Zone does not mean severe winter climate. This is the climate of all Europe up to Poland and England. That's not that harsh. Moreover, here is an abstract from a precipitation map around California and Nevada, and we can see that the area in those mountains is as wet as the Sierra Nevada, so I prefer leaving the boundary where I put it initialy.


No problem, I thought we were worried about snow, not simply total precipitation. There is plenty of precipitation along the coast, but it rarely snows below 4,000 feet, so there is almost never any snow in California south of Eureka. You have to go to the Sierras to find those kinds of elevations. The big rain storms that blow in along the coast don't turn into blizzards until they hit the higher altitudes of the Sierras.

Jim

Edit: Your snow chart is definatley wrong. I haven't seen snow for decades in the areas it lists as having 5 days a year with an inch or more of snowfall.

< Message edited by Jim D Burns -- 8/27/2008 5:19:57 PM >


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RE: California Climate Zone - 8/27/2008 5:44:15 PM   
Sewerlobster


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Jim D Burns
Edit: Your snow chart is definatley wrong. I haven't seen snow for decades in the areas it lists as having 5 days a year with an inch or more of snowfall.


Here's where we need to be careful, Patrice's map is clearly from 1970; so that'd explain the no seeing for decades. The question should be: what was the weather like in 1939-45? All that aside, I think the proposed changes are fair.

(in reply to Jim D Burns)
Post #: 22
RE: California Climate Zone - 8/27/2008 5:51:47 PM   
Jim D Burns


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quote:

ORIGINAL: SewerStarFish
Here's where we need to be careful, Patrice's map is clearly from 1970; so that'd explain the no seeing for decades. The question should be: what was the weather like in 1939-45? All that aside, I think the proposed changes are fair.


I agree with you 100%, but the question then remains. Even if there were 10 days a year with an inch of snow back then, does that even merit 1 impulse a year in game with snow conditions? My take on it would be, there should never be snow conditions south of Eureka unless it’s in the Sierras.

Granted this is California and it won’t matter in the game 99.999% of the time.

Jim


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Post #: 23
RE: California Climate Zone - 8/27/2008 7:16:00 PM   
Froonp


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quote:

ORIGINAL: SewerStarFish

quote:

ORIGINAL: Jim D Burns
Edit: Your snow chart is definatley wrong. I haven't seen snow for decades in the areas it lists as having 5 days a year with an inch or more of snowfall.


Here's where we need to be careful, Patrice's map is clearly from 1970; so that'd explain the no seeing for decades. The question should be: what was the weather like in 1939-45? All that aside, I think the proposed changes are fair.

The map has this notice :

"for the period 1931-1965"

(in reply to Sewerlobster)
Post #: 24
RE: California Climate Zone - 8/28/2008 9:15:29 PM   
Sewerlobster


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Froonp
quote:

ORIGINAL: SewerStarFish
Here's where we need to be careful, Patrice's map is clearly from 1970; so that'd explain the no seeing for decades. The question should be: what was the weather like in 1939-45? All that aside, I think the proposed changes are fair.

The map has this notice :
"for the period 1931-1965"

Great, so clearly the area you have now marked as Mediterranean is the area depicted as having had an average of 1 day of snow a year. Except maybe for those coastal hexes in Northern California and Oregon. But not every hex in a weather zone must actually have the snow, IMHO, as ZOC can extend from other hexes and other abstractions of supply may dictate.

So I agree with your reluctance to extend the Med zone farther north. It's kind of neat that you are paying such attention to details like this. Thanks.

_____________________________

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Post #: 25
RE: California Climate Zone - 8/28/2008 9:59:36 PM   
Grapeshot Bob


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I just thought I'd add something to this conversation: snow doesn't necessarily equate to either severe cold or high volumes of snow.

The arctic is extremely cold (I live in canada and I know what I'm talikng about). The arctic also gets very little snow. In fact it gets so little precipitation (in the form of snow) that it is classified as a desert.

All you need to make snow is precipitation and a ground temperature below freezing.


GSB

(in reply to Sewerlobster)
Post #: 26
RE: California Climate Zone - 8/28/2008 11:20:30 PM   
Froonp


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quote:

ORIGINAL: SewerStarFish
Great, so clearly the area you have now marked as Mediterranean is the area depicted as having had an average of 1 day of snow a year. Except maybe for those coastal hexes in Northern California and Oregon. But not every hex in a weather zone must actually have the snow, IMHO, as ZOC can extend from other hexes and other abstractions of supply may dictate.

Not only the map with the snow, but also the map with the precipitations, shown in post #16. The area I put as Mediterranean is the one with nearly no precipitation.
Even with that, snow and storm and rain are not uncommon under Med Weather Zone.

(in reply to Sewerlobster)
Post #: 27
RE: California Climate Zone - 8/29/2008 12:20:58 AM   
lomyrin


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In San DIego north County in the town of Escondido there was a snowfall of about 1 inch early in the morning one winter day in 1963.  It lasted for perhaps 2 to 3 hours on the ground.

Since then no snow.

Lars 

(in reply to Froonp)
Post #: 28
RE: California Climate Zone - 8/29/2008 3:17:58 AM   
Mike Dubost

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: lomyrin

In San DIego north County in the town of Escondido there was a snowfall of about 1 inch early in the morning one winter day in 1963.  It lasted for perhaps 2 to 3 hours on the ground.

Since then no snow.

Lars 



I wondered about the accuracy of the map showing some days of snow in California, so I consulted a local expert (well, OK, my grandmother ). She said that yes, San Francisco did get a few days of snow in this time period. She specifically mentioned a 1-inch snow fall during a local college football game. I therefore have no remaining reseverations about the map.

Thank you one and all for the effort here. I originally expected about 5 replies, so I am somewhat surprised by the volume of discussion I generated with the original post. I am not complaining at all, just surprised and a bit gratified by willingness to consider suggestions from "newbies".

< Message edited by Mike Dubost -- 8/29/2008 3:02:56 PM >

(in reply to lomyrin)
Post #: 29
RE: California Climate Zone - 8/30/2008 1:03:56 AM   
Froonp


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mike Dubost
Thank you one and all for the effort here. I originally expected about 5 replies, so I am somewhat surprised by the volume of discussion I generated with the original post. I am not complaining at all, just surprised and a bit gratified by willingness to consider suggestions from "newbies".

Well, I had this issue on the back of my head since some months ago, when someone already had pointed out this issue. So this time I took the time to try to sort it out the best we could.

(in reply to Mike Dubost)
Post #: 30
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