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RE: Vassal. - 8/17/2008 7:34:08 AM   
Veldor


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From: King's Landing
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quote:

ORIGINAL: GJK

There isn't a gamebox for ASL on ZunTzu, but making gameboxes for ZT is very, very easy (especially compared to VASSAL) so it would be a snap to whip one up for the SK's when you get one. I've thought of doing the same, but I'm pleased with the way VASL works and the community behind it. I have 3 pbem games going now - all set up and started within a day after posting a request for opponents.

Oh yeah, VASSAL/VASL supports dual-monitors. You'll love it once you've set it up.


Yeah I'll give you that... For ASL the community is a big element.. and the history is with VASL. I like the scenario setups and such as well.

I'm sure I'll be more than happy if I get that special mouse and/or dual monitors...

But every OTHER game should go to ZunTzu...

If they are as easy to build as you say.. I might be tempted to make a few for my favorite games... A few of the ones for VASSAL Id wish to improve on.. and Im guessing you have to be the original vassal module author to do that (or contact such)... With the new ground for ZunTzu I can just start from scratch...

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Post #: 31
RE: Vassal. - 8/17/2008 2:12:06 PM   
GJK


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Making a ZT gamebox is as easy as editing a couple of little XML files in a text editor. See Jerome's documentation for "How to make a gamebox". All that you need is the game, a scanner and a little patience. I've made a few gameboxes for it (see LINK) and in fact haven't made a VASSAL module in over a year now. I'm going to make a ZT gamebox for "Patton's Best" next as I'm looking to do some solo tank warfare stuff. I may pop one out for one of the SK's as well, who knows.

The only issue with ZT gameboxes is that you need a copy of the game with unpunched counters. That or you need to find scans of the countersheets (BGG.com may have them, isimulacrum may as well). That or you'll need to scan your loose counters and then "rebuild" a countersheet in a graphics editor.

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Post #: 32
RE: Vassal. - 8/17/2008 6:32:22 PM   
Brigz


Posts: 1162
Joined: 1/20/2002
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Veldor

IBut dang is there a lot of "move the cursor all the way to the bottom of the screen and scroll left and right and then back again" type stuff. Annoying.

I don't see why you cant just drag the board around on the screen by now... but I don't really see the need for that with a 4way scroll wheel....so


I may be mis-reading your posts again Veldor, but I don't seem to have the problems you have with scrolling in Vassal. You do know that you can just point the mouse cursor to the edge of the map and right click and it will auto-center at that point...a very easy way to scroll up or down or right and left. Also if you use the overview map you can easily just click on a point on that and the main map will center there also. I also use the zoom in and out buttons to give me a wider area view and then use the right click to center on what portion of the map I want to see. Pretty quick way to zip around the map. Of course what works for one person may not be a cup of tea for another.

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Post #: 33
RE: Vassal. - 8/17/2008 7:02:24 PM   
Veldor


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From: King's Landing
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Did not know about the right click map move in Vassal, but it doesnt change the comment entirely. My next question about ZunTzu for GJK basically illustrates why.

In Vassal, a lot of what you need to do with a unit you can do simply by right-clicking it. Now Dave.. Do you see what would be wrong if you couldn't? Like in many PC Wargames you would select a unit, move all the way to the top to click a menu and/or command then move all the way back to select the next unit, rinse/repeat. Or you'd get some lame comment from players/developers that your not suppose to use the mouse (I still gasp at that) but rather press hotkeys for each command as if its still 1980. This was Advanced Tactics answer and sure I still love the game but also no excuse when VASSAL already has better even.

Its literally lesson #1 in program/game design and it continues to appall me how many wargame designers don't seem to get that. I applaud that Vassal does. I did not exactly see this with ZunTzu, and I was curious if it had the ability to add that where needed.

Where Vassal falls short is in map movement and zooming though now Ive read something about zooming being better in the new VASL version.. Its still overall a fundamental enough need that I find the ZunTzu interface incredibly more modern, intuitive, and so forth.

Which is lesson #2 in program/game design... A program/games controls should come naturally. You shouldn't even need to tell somehow HOW to maneuver through the interface/etc. You should only need to tell them how to use the program/play the game.

I'm not saying VASSAL is bad, just that ZunTzu is better in those regards. VASSAL still has things I'd like to see the average PC Wargame have, so it still gets a plenty good rating from me, and I will use it, especially VASL.

But, aside from PBEM, what other limits does ZunTzu have? Can I get those right-click menus/pop-up menus?

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Post #: 34
RE: Vassal. - 8/17/2008 7:28:40 PM   
Brigz


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Joined: 1/20/2002
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Veldor

Its literally lesson #1 in program/game design and it continues to appall me how many wargame designers don't seem to get that. I applaud that Vassal does. I did not exactly see this with ZunTzu, and I was curious if it had the ability to add that where needed.


Now I understand the meaning of your avatar. The guy in the cross-hairs is a computer game designer.

I took a look at the ZunTzu video and the map viewing/scrolling is impressive.

A grab feature in Vassal where you could just left-click on the map and pull it around would be very nice. I might just put that in as a suggestion for the next incarnation of Vassal.

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Post #: 35
RE: Vassal. - 8/17/2008 7:59:29 PM   
GJK


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Jerome's philosophy for ZunTzu was that he wanted to create an application that represents a boardgame on your computer screen. And like it or not (many have questioned this) but his reasoning is that if it can't be done on your table-top, it shouldn't be done on the digital version. Thus, just as you can't have a counter automatically spawn another counter or move to another part of your map, it won't do it in the electronic version either. So no, there are no right click menu's or any shortcuts that can be added. You get what you get with ZT, the map, the counters and cards. You have to move each of the pieces, you have to draw each of the cards, etc.

Jerome has plans of implementing Pbem features into ZT; he mentioned on his forums that it would basically record your session (turn) and also record your voice (microphone) and that would send along to your opponent for playback. How else and if that will work is yet to be known. One thing that is great about this and VASSAL (and Cyberboard for that matter) is that all 3 have very active support from the programmer(s) and they are open to input from us that use the utilities and provide the feedback, be it good or bad.

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Post #: 36
RE: Vassal. - 8/17/2008 8:00:38 PM   
GJK


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By the way, I believe that Veldor's avatar is the "Sniper" card from Up Front, a game that I own and always wanted to learn to play. I should pop onto VASSAL for it some time soon and observe a few games and then give it a go, I hear it's great.

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Post #: 37
RE: Vassal. - 8/17/2008 9:53:46 PM   
tmccarron

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Veldor

Where Vassal falls short is in map movement and zooming though now Ive read something about zooming being better in the new VASL version.. Its still overall a fundamental enough need that I find the ZunTzu interface incredibly more modern, intuitive, and so forth.


You are correct - Ive seen the graphical demo for this. It is much more intuitive to get about pan/zoom (grab n drag / mouse wheel etc..) - even does rotating. Hopefully will get included into the engine core sometime soon as it is much more what you expect and find in ZT.

(in reply to Veldor)
Post #: 38
RE: Vassal. - 8/18/2008 1:32:55 AM   
Veldor


Posts: 1522
Joined: 12/29/2002
From: King's Landing
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: GJK

By the way, I believe that Veldor's avatar is the "Sniper" card from Up Front, a game that I own and always wanted to learn to play. I should pop onto VASSAL for it some time soon and observe a few games and then give it a go, I hear it's great.


Yeah, thats right. And traditionally the guy in the crosshairs is actually me. I often like to play the devil's advocate as I find it the quickest way to the truth of a matter. Even when I'm actually aligned with the other side. Problem is, thats a difficult thing to explain and make work in mostly mediums where complete anonymity is the standard. Thus is probably the case in this thread..

Up Front itself is the 44th most popular game of all time as ranked by Boardgamegeek.com. That's pretty good considering its nearly impossible to get without laying out a lot of cash. Over the years I've conceeded to agreeing that it also suffers from one of the most poorly written rulebooks of all time as well. In the end I guess thats just what makes it all the more magical of an experience should one actually go through the trouble of muddling through it.

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Post #: 39
RE: Vassal. - 8/18/2008 1:40:17 AM   
Veldor


Posts: 1522
Joined: 12/29/2002
From: King's Landing
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: tmccarron


quote:

ORIGINAL: Veldor

Where Vassal falls short is in map movement and zooming though now Ive read something about zooming being better in the new VASL version.. Its still overall a fundamental enough need that I find the ZunTzu interface incredibly more modern, intuitive, and so forth.


You are correct - Ive seen the graphical demo for this. It is much more intuitive to get about pan/zoom (grab n drag / mouse wheel etc..) - even does rotating. Hopefully will get included into the engine core sometime soon as it is much more what you expect and find in ZT.


Welcome back to the Matrix Forums! I'm assuming your refering to VASSAL/VASL improvements here?

You did a very nice job on the VASSAL Up Front Module by the way...

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Post #: 40
RE: Vassal. - 8/30/2008 3:15:51 AM   
tmccarron

 

Posts: 5
Joined: 7/27/2005
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Thanks, - its a bit out of date. I need to revise it someday.

Yes, I was referring to Vassal regarding improvements

(in reply to Veldor)
Post #: 41
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