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RE: Is 4e night bombing gamey? - 8/6/2008 5:35:31 AM   
TommyG


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The allies didn't mass their 4e bombers in 1942 because the other theater commanders wouldn't give up the assets. There were more B17s at PH then PM. Since I'm God in my game, I can put them anywhere I want. Is it gamey not to duplicate SoPac and SWPac competition, or not denying Mac a requested asset for whatever reason his perceived Washington enemies had, good or bad? I do not think it is gamey to ignore the political nonsense that was a very real part of the war.

Only half the planes fly, so maintenance issues are fairly represented now, but will not be when experience levels put more planes in the air. A real issue is morale. Flying into daytime combat increases fatigue so quickly that I have to rest two days out of five. Night flying does not seem to cause the same fatigue loss, and it should.
I also agree that accuracy may be off. But, 100 bombers are only knocking out 4-6 planes on the ground and no pilots are lost so the raids are far less than devestating.

On balance, and IMHO, maybe it is a little gamey, but not all that much.
It doesn't matter, Jeff and I have compromised in a way that makes neither of us happy; in other words- a fair result.

(in reply to Heeward)
Post #: 31
RE: Is 4e night bombing gamey? - 8/6/2008 7:23:47 AM   
castor troy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Gem35

How many threads do we need concerning gamey tactics and they almost always end up with allied bombers being gamey.
pbem games never have been considered for me because more than likely I'll get an oponent with a house rule list a mile long.
Good Grief.
Where is my pillow, I am so sleepy....




If you COULD think about all the flaws of the engine and probable exploits to game the game it would be a list longer than a mile.

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Post #: 32
RE: Is 4e night bombing gamey? - 8/6/2008 7:25:03 AM   
castor troy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Heeward

Due to the small number of B17's / B24's and LB30's in the early war 100 plane raids should not be feasible by 4 engine bombers till mid(?) 1943.

Therefore your solution maybe to turn off player defined upgrades and / or reducing the number of replacements aircraft.

I also suspect that your opponent is using them in a non-historic manner
1. Making a significant effort to limit losses.
2. Creating additional B17 / B24 squadrons.
3. Concentrating his heavy bomb groups in one or two locations and not spreading them out as they were historically.

I suspect it is no more gamey then the Jappanese runing the equivalent of the Bay of Biscay Offensive in the Ducth East Indies from 1942 on.

A good book on early Pacific War B-17 operations is Fortress Against The Sun: The B-17 Flying Fortress In The Pacific.




In stock "small" numbers are relative. In stock it shouldn´t be much of a problem to see 200-300 4E raids on a regular basis.

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Post #: 33
RE: Is 4e night bombing gamey? - 8/6/2008 1:14:35 PM   
Reg


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mike Scholl

Ask your opponant to back up his claims with some historical fact. Japanese Night Fighters and Flak weren't very effective at all during the war..., so if he's not accomplishing anything he's getting accurate results.

quote:

ORIGINAL: mdiehl

It is not gamey because the USAAF did use low-altitude 4eBs in the SoPac theater. What you are doing is historically reasonable both by virtue of historical precedent and because it was one of several 'operational tools in the USAAF's kit. USAAF pilots trained at it well enough that all 4EB crews could conduct a night raid as a matter of course. It was, however, as others have noted already, not (one might say "not hardly") as accurate as daylight bombing.


I can provide some historical info if you like. About IRON RANGE AIRFIELD which is the airfield represented by Cooktown in the game.

Units based here:
43BG(H) B-17  
   64BS   12/10/42 - 08/11/42
   65BS   13/10/42 - 7/11/42
  403BS   15/9/42  - 22/10/42
90BG(H)  B-24
  319BS   13/11/42 - 2/2/43
  320BS   13/11/42 - 21/1/43
  321BG   19/11/42 - 10/2/43
  400BS   13/11/42 - 22/3/43


(FYI, the 43BG was withdrawn to Cairns in Nov'42 and was then transferred to Port Moresby with the 90BG around Feb'43).

As can be seen, historically 100+ heavy bombers were operating out of the Cooktown/Cairns area and they were conducting night missions to Rabaul and elsewhere (see link above). An escalation on numbers to 200 bombers is above historical levels but is what I would call reasonable' if you want to have a bit of variation to the game and not be a total slave to history.

The only thing that perhaps is a bit 'gamey' is the effectiveness of these bombers.

quote:

When the 90th Bomb Group arrived at Iron Range in November 1942, the two strips named Claudie and Gordon, were still unfinished and not sealed. Tents were pitched amongst the trees for accommodation. Conditions were primitive. Snakes, insects, scorpions, etc were prevalent. The men of the 90th Bomb Group described it as the worst airfield they were ever posted at during the war.

The picture below shows what the actual strip was like and may go explain why historical results fall short of what the game produces.


It was also a dangerous occupation as the following links attest:
16 NOVEMBER 1942 - CRASH OF A B-24 LIBERATOR and
26 DECEMBER 1942 - CRASH OF A B-24 LIBERATOR
(Note: Both were night missions...)

Personally I feel that the 4E combat effectiveness is reasonable. What I think is missing is the difficulty in maintaining the effectiveness of the 4E units under primitive conditions.


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Uh oh, Firefox has a spell checker!! What excuse can I use now!!!

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Post #: 34
RE: Is 4e night bombing gamey? - 8/6/2008 2:17:18 PM   
jwxspoon


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quote:

But, 100 bombers are only knocking out 4-6 planes on the ground and no pilots are lost so the raids are far less than devestating.


Actually you were knocking out 15-20 a day until I evacuated the base. Went down to 4-6 because the damaged planes that could not fly out were then being destroyed.

But, as Tom said, we've come to a good compromise that doesn't please either of us, but that we can both live with.

jw

(in reply to Reg)
Post #: 35
RE: Is 4e night bombing gamey? - 8/7/2008 12:12:58 AM   
Gem35


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quote:

ORIGINAL: castor troy


quote:

ORIGINAL: Gem35

How many threads do we need concerning gamey tactics and they almost always end up with allied bombers being gamey.
pbem games never have been considered for me because more than likely I'll get an oponent with a house rule list a mile long.
Good Grief.
Where is my pillow, I am so sleepy....




If you COULD think about all the flaws of the engine and probable exploits to game the game it would be a list longer than a mile.

That is why I don't game online anymore, every game that has ever been created for online or person to person always will be exploited by folks.

Whatever happened to a good old fashioned game enjoyed by both or in an online setting all individuals?
I've spent so much time in other games where I started out having fun and then someone comes by and wrecks it all.
I would usually find out it was caused by some kid, not grown adults.


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RE: Is 4e night bombing gamey? - 8/7/2008 3:16:34 AM   
1275psi

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: pasternakski

You know, these discussions frequently get far too emotional. I think it may be because various posters have an attachment to one side or the other, and lose sight of objectivity in their chauvinistic rush to triumph.

With that in mind, and figuring that this would also be in keeping with how accurately this game depicts the historical situation in the Pacific theater anyway, I suggest that the names of the countries involved be changed. That way, there's less danger of people becoming too "patriotic" (in the same sense that lab scientists are now using lawyers instead of rats in their experiments, because there is far less danger of lab personnel becoming emotionally attached to a lawyer).

Let's see. We could have Fredonia and Grand Fenwick as the primary agonists, with such minor contributors as Erewhon, Brobdingnag, and Lilliput.

4E bombing, day or night, has always been weird in WitP. It ain't gonna change, so there's no use talking about it. If it's possible to do something in a game, you gotta let your opponent do it, unless you have established house rules up front.

Otherwise, fageddaboudit.




best posting of the month award!!!

(not that some will pay attention to it!!!)

(in reply to pasternakski)
Post #: 37
RE: Is 4e night bombing gamey? - 8/9/2008 12:45:41 AM   
Andvari

 

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No one has mentioned the Flak Gap in any of the previous postings. Quoting Yamato hugger on this subject from a post of 7/26/07, "Between 6 and 9 is the infamous "flak gap". It isn’t that there is no flak, it just it’s too high for the light guns, and too low for the big ones. This being in stock games. Most mods correct this problem."

If you attack shipping, the gap doesn't exist. Forget the number of bombers or the historical precedents, if you compound the Gap with the lack of night fighters, the Japanese bases will get hosed every time.

(in reply to 1275psi)
Post #: 38
RE: Is 4e night bombing gamey? - 8/9/2008 12:59:17 AM   
Gem35


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I for one want to actually thank all of the grogs who will not accept anything less than quality gameplay for WitP.
Though I am more of the casual gamer , don't get me wrong I play to win but I suppose we do need these folks on the forums if nothing else than to "push" the modders and tireless folks who work on patches and of course AE to provide the best possible product for us.
Just don't wear your underpants so tight sometimes guys.


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It doesn't make any sense, Admiral. Were we better than the Japanese or just luckier?


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RE: Is 4e night bombing gamey? - 8/9/2008 5:18:09 AM   
Anthropoid


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quote:

ORIGINAL: mdiehl

quote:

Yes,you can do wonders with KB in 1944,just like with 4E bombers


We're talking about 1942-1943 are we not?

The real Japanese immediately divided up KB into its component carrier divisions after Pearl Harbor and they operated extensively in pairs, only combining to four fleet class CVs for the Indian Ocean and Midway ops.

In the end the point of a consim is to allow players to make different (ahistorical) operational choices using the same forcesthat were historically used (both with respect to numbers and to accurate modeling of capability with these assets).

Massing 4EBs for night raids in 1942 is not gamey because.
1. In 1939 the USAAF was training bombing crews for that sort of thing.
2. In 1942 night bombing missions were flown in the SoPac by the USAAF and using 4EBs.

The only "open question" here seems to be whether or not their effectiveness in the subject of this thread is accurately modeled.


Well said. Fix the game and let the players do what they want. If something is "gamey" then it simply should not be possible to do it.

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RE: Is 4e night bombing gamey? - 8/9/2008 5:01:26 PM   
Nemo121


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quote:

But let the Allies start using their overabundance of B-17's and eveybody start's screaming for "House Rules".


Not all. Some people are happy for things to cut both ways...

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Post #: 41
RE: Is 4e night bombing gamey? - 8/9/2008 10:39:39 PM   
pasternakski


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Gem35
Just don't wear your underpants so tight sometimes guys.


What - you don't like my squeaky voice?

_____________________________

Put my faith in the people
And the people let me down.
So, I turned the other way,
And I carry on anyhow.

(in reply to Gem35)
Post #: 42
RE: Is 4e night bombing gamey? - 8/10/2008 12:15:10 AM   
John 3rd


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I think it is gamey.  I've dealt with it in one of my current campaigns.  The Allies don't fly at bases where I have a lot of fighters because of the expected casualties so they attack at night with massed formations and drive me out that way.  Didn't happen in 1942...

The doctrine argument holds some validity here.  The USAF was a 'precision daylight bombing tool.'  It REALLY didn't work out that way but that it how it was designed. 

Anyone who reads my AARs know that I LOVE to split up the KB early in the war because that is how the Japanese did it.  Has it cost me?  Yes!  Do I still do it?  Yes!

My .02

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Post #: 43
RE: Is 4e night bombing gamey? - 8/10/2008 12:27:34 AM   
pasternakski


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quote:

ORIGINAL: John 3rd

I think it is gamey. ... Didn't happen in 1942...

That's the point. There is no such thing as "gamey." If you don't want it to happen in the game, either persuade the devs to change it (and it may or may not happen for AE) or get together with your playing partner and impose house rules.

There are several terms that have emerged on these forums that I refuse to enter into my lexicon. "Gamey" is one of them. "Respawn" is another.

Gawd, how I hate even the sound of "respawn" when applied to a computer wargaming dynamic.

_____________________________

Put my faith in the people
And the people let me down.
So, I turned the other way,
And I carry on anyhow.

(in reply to John 3rd)
Post #: 44
RE: Is 4e night bombing gamey? - 8/10/2008 1:31:52 AM   
Mike Scholl

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: John 3rd

I think it is gamey.  I've dealt with it in one of my current campaigns.  The Allies don't fly at bases where I have a lot of fighters because of the expected casualties so they attack at night with massed formations and drive me out that way.  Didn't happen in 1942... And did you as the Japanese use your BB's for "bombardment missions" all over the Pacific? That didn't happen in 1942 either..., only a couple of BC's were ever given the mission.

The doctrine argument holds some validity here.  The USAF was a 'precision daylight bombing tool.'  It REALLY didn't work out that way but that it how it was designed.  And the Japanese "battleline" was the "instrament of decision" to be conserved in home waters for "the Decisive Battle".


Why is it only "gamey" when the Allies use an asset in an ahistoric manner?

(in reply to John 3rd)
Post #: 45
RE: Is 4e night bombing gamey? - 8/10/2008 2:25:59 AM   
treespider


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quote:

ORIGINAL: pasternakski



There are several terms that have emerged on these forums that I refuse to enter into my lexicon. "Gamey" is one of them.



Wait a second now....I've had some pretty gamey meat at times.

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Post #: 46
RE: Is 4e night bombing gamey? - 8/10/2008 3:03:13 AM   
pasternakski


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I don't know ... tastes like chicken to me ...

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Put my faith in the people
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So, I turned the other way,
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RE: Is 4e night bombing gamey? - 8/10/2008 3:10:53 AM   
thegreatwent


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Oh no! Don't engage Pasternakski in word games. He thrives off of them like Rejick in Star Trek's "Wolf in the Fold" Episode. Rejick feeds off fear, as P feeds off words. Just take a tranquilizer and disregard for best effect.

< Message edited by thegreatwent -- 8/10/2008 3:11:42 AM >


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RE: Is 4e night bombing gamey? - 8/10/2008 4:06:34 AM   
John 3rd


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I ALWAYS appreciate any form of classical Star Trek reference!

...error...error...faulty...faulty....

< Message edited by John 3rd -- 8/10/2008 4:07:24 AM >


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RE: Is 4e night bombing gamey? - 8/10/2008 5:19:08 AM   
Gem35


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Computer, compute to the last digit the value of pi.
working.....

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Post #: 50
RE: Is 4e night bombing gamey? - 8/10/2008 5:20:49 AM   
Gem35


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"The best diplomat that I know is a fully-loaded phaser bank." -- Lt. Cdr. Montgomery Scott

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It doesn't make any sense, Admiral. Were we better than the Japanese or just luckier?


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Post #: 51
RE: Is 4e night bombing gamey? - 8/10/2008 5:46:20 AM   
pasternakski


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"Oh! What will we tell the children!" - James T. "womanizer" Kirk





Attachment (1)

_____________________________

Put my faith in the people
And the people let me down.
So, I turned the other way,
And I carry on anyhow.

(in reply to Gem35)
Post #: 52
RE: Is 4e night bombing gamey? - 8/10/2008 6:30:50 AM   
Tophat1815

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: pasternakski

"Oh! What will we tell the children!" - James T. "womanizer" Kirk







Your just jealous of Kirk! he had to pay dearly for those scenes with the babes in rather poor dialogue badly delivered.

As for it being "gamey"or not. As a Japanese player the Allied us of 4E DEATH(massed bombers at below 10,000ft)at night is pure excrement. The Allied players like to tell themselves the japanese have x,y and z ahistoric advantages so abuse of the 4E Death machine is perfectly legal. My advice find another pbem opponent! Harsh? Perhaps it is harsh,but WiTp is a "LONG" game and supposed to be fun correct? Ask yourself if you are enjoying yourself in 1942? By 1944 it'll be far,far tougher can you handle it?

(in reply to pasternakski)
Post #: 53
RE: Is 4e night bombing gamey? - 8/10/2008 11:32:37 AM   
castor troy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mike Scholl


quote:

ORIGINAL: John 3rd

I think it is gamey.  I've dealt with it in one of my current campaigns.  The Allies don't fly at bases where I have a lot of fighters because of the expected casualties so they attack at night with massed formations and drive me out that way.  Didn't happen in 1942... And did you as the Japanese use your BB's for "bombardment missions" all over the Pacific? That didn't happen in 1942 either..., only a couple of BC's were ever given the mission.

The doctrine argument holds some validity here.  The USAF was a 'precision daylight bombing tool.'  It REALLY didn't work out that way but that it how it was designed.  And the Japanese "battleline" was the "instrament of decision" to be conserved in home waters for "the Decisive Battle".


Why is it only "gamey" when the Allies use an asset in an ahistoric manner?




If the Japanese use 400 Sallies out of Rangoon to do daily night bombing attacks against Mandalay at 6000 ft then I would call it as gamey as if the Allied would do the same with 300 B-17 against Rangoon. Why should "gamey" be something side related?

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Post #: 54
RE: Is 4e night bombing gamey? - 8/10/2008 3:18:31 PM   
John 3rd


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"I've been prepared for death ever since I murdered my crew."  Commodore Matt Decker  The Doomsday Machine This writer's favorite episode of Classical Star Trek.

I do agree that the game is a two-way street.  As a Japanese player I have very rarely used night bombing because it is so ineffective unless you bomb in large numbers from low altitude.  It is also far mroe effective with 4EB then with 2EB.


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Post #: 55
RE: Is 4e night bombing gamey? - 8/10/2008 4:10:06 PM   
ny59giants


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Thanks for this thread. I'm going to do some in my PBEM game. It's nice having all those LB with a longer range in Empire's Ablaze.

Damian...are you listening??


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Post #: 56
RE: Is 4e night bombing gamey? - 8/10/2008 5:11:19 PM   
n01487477


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I'd use profanity but don't want to turn into the "green" goblin ...

Michael, What's a man supposed to do but smile wryly and put his chin out ? ...

Wish you forum member would stop posting good topics and giving him ideas!

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Post #: 57
RE: Is 4e night bombing gamey? - 8/11/2008 4:15:41 AM   
Anthropoid


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quote:

ORIGINAL: pasternakski

"Oh! What will we tell the children!" - James T. "womanizer" Kirk






Kirk was a Quaker compared to Captain Pike.

Pike really new how to pimp dee Orion beotches . . .

_____________________________

The x-ray is her siren song. My ship cannot resist her long. Nearer to my deadly goal. Until the black hole. Gains control...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IkIIlkyZ328&feature=autoplay&list=AL94UKMTqg-9CocLGbd6tpbuQRxyF4FGNr&playnext=3

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Post #: 58
RE: Is 4e night bombing gamey? - 8/11/2008 2:54:44 PM   
John 3rd


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Nothing like a green-coloured slave girl!

Damian--you have my profound apologies since I NEVER want to help Michael out! 

"This unit cannot murder." 

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Post #: 59
RE: Is 4e night bombing gamey? - 8/11/2008 4:05:11 PM   
Nikademus


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Anthropoid


Kirk was a Quaker compared to Captain Pike.

Pike really new how to pimp dee Orion beotches . . .


Captain Archer is no slouch either. Plenty of testosterone.

Kirk rocks.........its like Prince vs. Michael......Prince won by default because he retained his sanity. Kirk won by default because they beefed up Picard in the latter NG movies so that he acted more "Kirk-ish"






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