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Eastern Fleet... - 8/1/2008 9:24:00 AM   
SamRo115

 

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will we beable to mess about with the ship withdraw times in the editor?
is there going to be some british Aux's now like RFA Maidstone? maybe Abdiel Class ML's?
Also Regarding the FAA, will British carriers still have small airgroups right thought the war or will they enlarge? on this note HMS Unicorn AV or CVL? convertable? I think it was used as a CVL buy the Eastern Fleet..?
Finaly can a player send a damaged ship "Back to Blighty"? haveing ships with over 50sys knocking about with no real hope of repair in the small India Shipyards is frustrating, waiting for the them too be recalled... alternatively is Alexandria or a port with a good Dry Dock or are Floating Dry Dock's going to be about for utilisation?

Cheers
SamRo
Post #: 1
RE: Eastern Fleet... - 8/1/2008 12:06:19 PM   
Andrew Brown


Posts: 4980
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From: Hex 82,170
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quote:

ORIGINAL: SamRo115
Finaly can a player send a damaged ship "Back to Blighty"? haveing ships with over 50sys knocking about with no real hope of repair in the small India Shipyards is frustrating, waiting for the them too be recalled... alternatively is Alexandria or a port with a good Dry Dock or are Floating Dry Dock's going to be about for utilisation?

Cheers
SamRo


I will leave your other questions to the Naval guys, but I can answer these last ones: Yes, the Allies can send damaged ships back to the UK, or the US East coast, for repair. There are repair yards at each. There is also a (closer, for the Eastern Fleet) repair yard at Capetown. Alexandria, however, is not represented.

Andrew

(in reply to SamRo115)
Post #: 2
RE: Eastern Fleet... - 8/1/2008 1:25:21 PM   
wdolson

 

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From: Near Portland, OR
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quote:

ORIGINAL: SamRo115

will we beable to mess about with the ship withdraw times in the editor?
is there going to be some british Aux's now like RFA Maidstone? maybe Abdiel Class ML's?
Also Regarding the FAA, will British carriers still have small airgroups right thought the war or will they enlarge? on this note HMS Unicorn AV or CVL? convertable? I think it was used as a CVL buy the Eastern Fleet..?
Finaly can a player send a damaged ship "Back to Blighty"? haveing ships with over 50sys knocking about with no real hope of repair in the small India Shipyards is frustrating, waiting for the them too be recalled... alternatively is Alexandria or a port with a good Dry Dock or are Floating Dry Dock's going to be about for utilisation?

Cheers
SamRo


Any type of unit (land, air, or ship) can be withdrawn now, and they are all exposed in the editor. Additionally units can be withdrawn and returned.

The ship classes have been expanded quite a bit. I know some very small auxillaries were left out simply because there wasn't enough time to model them all. However, a couple of people on the AE team are talking about a CHS type expansion of the AE OOB to include them as a mod after release.

Carrier air groups are much more realistic than in the original game (I believe the resizing bug is long dead BTW). I'm not sure of the exact details though. I haven't looked at the air OOB lately.

Sea going floating dry docks (ARDs) are also in the game, though I don't believe the Allies get any until late 1943.

As Andrew said, there are many off map ports with ship repair yards. Ship repair is much more realistic than the original game. I know a lot of research went into what capacity each port had and attempts were made to accurately model the repair facilities in various ports.

You can also prioritize and make assignments for repair, so you don't have to sit there watching your BB with 1 SYS wait while all the DDs get repaired.

Bill

_____________________________

WitP AE - Test team lead, programmer

(in reply to SamRo115)
Post #: 3
RE: Eastern Fleet... - 8/5/2008 11:44:35 PM   
mbatch729


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quote:

ORIGINAL: wdolson
Ship repair is much more realistic than the original game. I know a lot of research went into what capacity each port had and attempts were made to accurately model the repair facilities in various ports.

You can also prioritize and make assignments for repair, so you don't have to sit there watching your BB with 1 SYS wait while all the DDs get repaired.

Bill


I just hope the ship damage model is more realistic. I hate the "did the float damage go up or down this turn" game I have to watch while my capital ships are sitting in port...

_____________________________

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(in reply to wdolson)
Post #: 4
RE: Eastern Fleet... - 8/6/2008 12:24:44 AM   
Don Bowen


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quote:

ORIGINAL: mbatch729


quote:

ORIGINAL: wdolson
Ship repair is much more realistic than the original game. I know a lot of research went into what capacity each port had and attempts were made to accurately model the repair facilities in various ports.

You can also prioritize and make assignments for repair, so you don't have to sit there watching your BB with 1 SYS wait while all the DDs get repaired.

Bill


I just hope the ship damage model is more realistic. I hate the "did the float damage go up or down this turn" game I have to watch while my capital ships are sitting in port...


The repair model has been adjusted to allow for fairly regular repairs - based on the mix of repair assets, ships needing repair, and player-controlled priority assignments. WITP used a random application of repair or additional damage to represent irregularities in repair. AE uses random "events" instead. That is, unless there is an "event" the repair will proceed at a (mostly) regular pace and repair completion will be (mostly) predictable. The big events are reported in the ops file but no worries - you'll know when they happen. Events can increase damage to the ship under repair and can even sink it. They can also damage or destroy repair facilities - like ARs or shipyards taking major damage from an accident.

If no priorities are set, the repair modules process "important" ships first. That is, carriers/cruisers/battleships before destroyers, etc. It also "repairs" damage in a more balanced way. Float damage, which can sink a ship, is given a level of preference but in general repairs are done on the worst damage first. If a ship has 20 damage points of float, engine, systems you can expect them to ratchet down fairly evenly (with an edge to float) rather than have one repaired all the way to zero, then another, etc. This emulates workmen crawling all over the ship fixing whatever is broken.



(in reply to mbatch729)
Post #: 5
RE: Eastern Fleet... - 8/6/2008 8:12:50 AM   
bradfordkay

 

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Don Bowen wrote:
"Events can increase damage to the ship under repair and can even sink it. They can also damage or destroy repair facilities - like ARs or shipyards taking major damage from an accident."


I can't wait for the first forum post: "Dang it all! An AE exploded in my port, destroying two ARs nearby! This game is broken!!"

_____________________________

fair winds,
Brad

(in reply to Don Bowen)
Post #: 6
RE: Eastern Fleet... - 8/6/2008 4:05:46 PM   
pad152

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: bradfordkay

I can't wait for the first forum post: "Dang it all! An AE exploded in my port, destroying two ARs nearby! This game is broken!!"



I like the randomness of WITP, sometimes things happen in war. I'm very unsure of events like this, it always sounds good at first but, then seeing it happen multiple times through out a campaign or twice in a row and then I would say it's broken, I hope any event like this is capped so it can only happen 2 or 3 times during a campaign!

(in reply to bradfordkay)
Post #: 7
RE: Eastern Fleet... - 8/6/2008 6:47:51 PM   
rjopel

 

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Let's see Ammo ships blowing up in port.

The Port Chicago Blast 17 Jul 44
Pearl West Loch 21 May 44
USS Mount Hood, Manus, 10 Nov 44
Bombay India, 14 Apr 44

That's 4 in the space of 6 months in the pacific

(in reply to pad152)
Post #: 8
RE: Eastern Fleet... - 8/6/2008 7:52:21 PM   
kaleun

 

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From: Colorado
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I must stop looking at this posts.
Slurps loudly

so long to wait.


















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Appear at places to which he must hasten; move swiftly where he does not expect you.
Sun Tzu

(in reply to rjopel)
Post #: 9
RE: Eastern Fleet... - 8/6/2008 10:31:09 PM   
wdolson

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: bradfordkay

I can't wait for the first forum post: "Dang it all! An AE exploded in my port, destroying two ARs nearby! This game is broken!!"


quote:

ORIGINAL: pad152
I like the randomness of WITP, sometimes things happen in war. I'm very unsure of events like this, it always sounds good at first but, then seeing it happen multiple times through out a campaign or twice in a row and then I would say it's broken, I hope any event like this is capped so it can only happen 2 or 3 times during a campaign!



The randoms to make it happen are pretty rare. Probably lower probability than real life.

Bill

_____________________________

WitP AE - Test team lead, programmer

(in reply to pad152)
Post #: 10
RE: Eastern Fleet... - 8/6/2008 11:00:50 PM   
rockmedic109

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: rjopel

Let's see Ammo ships blowing up in port.

The Port Chicago Blast 17 Jul 44
Pearl West Loch 21 May 44
USS Mount Hood, Manus, 10 Nov 44
Bombay India, 14 Apr 44

That's 4 in the space of 6 months in the pacific



Naming Ammo ships after volcanos is positive proof that the navy has a warped sense of humor.

(in reply to rjopel)
Post #: 11
RE: Eastern Fleet... - 8/6/2008 11:04:42 PM   
String


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From: Estonia
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quote:

ORIGINAL: rockmedic109


quote:

ORIGINAL: rjopel

Let's see Ammo ships blowing up in port.

The Port Chicago Blast 17 Jul 44
Pearl West Loch 21 May 44
USS Mount Hood, Manus, 10 Nov 44
Bombay India, 14 Apr 44

That's 4 in the space of 6 months in the pacific



Naming Ammo ships after volcanos is positive proof that the navy has a warped sense of humor.


It was deliberately done to remind the sailors what kind of ship they were actually sailing so that they would maintain good security.

(in reply to rockmedic109)
Post #: 12
RE: Eastern Fleet... - 8/7/2008 12:39:54 AM   
Don Bowen


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quote:

ORIGINAL: bradfordkay

Don Bowen wrote:
"Events can increase damage to the ship under repair and can even sink it. They can also damage or destroy repair facilities - like ARs or shipyards taking major damage from an accident."


I can't wait for the first forum post: "Dang it all! An AE exploded in my port, destroying two ARs nearby! This game is broken!!"


There are all kinds of very rare events, with associated messages. Here are a couple of the messages you will seldom see:

(ship) breaks towline and is lost at (location) You'll only see this one when moving ARD around. These guys are not very seaworthy and hard to "tow". Towing, of course, is not implemented but is assumed in any movement of ARDs or any out-of-fuel ship.

(ship) collides with (ship) at (location) Odds of this are much lower than reality. We may have to jack them up.

(ship) hits uncharted rock at (location) Only when running in shallow water, of course.






(in reply to bradfordkay)
Post #: 13
RE: Eastern Fleet... - 8/7/2008 1:07:49 AM   
Heeward


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Will we have?

(ship) blunders into friendly minefield at (location)

_____________________________

The Wake

(in reply to Don Bowen)
Post #: 14
RE: Eastern Fleet... - 8/7/2008 2:42:55 AM   
kaleun

 

Posts: 5145
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From: Colorado
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quote:

(ship) breaks towline and is lost at (location) You'll only see this one when moving ARD around. These guys are not very seaworthy and hard to "tow". Towing, of course, is not implemented but is assumed in any movement of ARDs or any out-of-fuel ship.

(ship) collides with (ship) at (location) Odds of this are much lower than reality. We may have to jack them up.

(ship) hits uncharted rock at (location) Only when running in shallow water, of course.



Slurp, Slurp, Slobber, slobber.

_____________________________

Appear at places to which he must hasten; move swiftly where he does not expect you.
Sun Tzu

(in reply to Heeward)
Post #: 15
RE: Eastern Fleet... - 8/7/2008 3:56:59 AM   
Don Bowen


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From: Georgetown, Texas, USA
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Heeward

Will we have?

(ship) blunders into friendly minefield at (location)


Already have the event (in stock WITP), but not the message in those words.

(in reply to Heeward)
Post #: 16
RE: Eastern Fleet... - 8/7/2008 4:35:33 AM   
pad152

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: wdolson



quote:

ORIGINAL: bradfordkay

I can't wait for the first forum post: "Dang it all! An AE exploded in my port, destroying two ARs nearby! This game is broken!!"


quote:

ORIGINAL: pad152
I like the randomness of WITP, sometimes things happen in war. I'm very unsure of events like this, it always sounds good at first but, then seeing it happen multiple times through out a campaign or twice in a row and then I would say it's broken, I hope any event like this is capped so it can only happen 2 or 3 times during a campaign!



The randoms to make it happen are pretty rare. Probably lower probability than real life.

Bill


In game this long, randomness may not be enough, I think it needs a hard limit!

< Message edited by pad152 -- 8/7/2008 4:44:23 AM >

(in reply to wdolson)
Post #: 17
RE: Eastern Fleet... - 8/7/2008 4:44:27 AM   
pad152

 

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Nobody is going to be happy with getting a badly damaged carrier half way across the pacific, back safely in port, only to have it blow up in port a few weeks later! Nobody!!!

(in reply to pad152)
Post #: 18
RE: Eastern Fleet... - 8/7/2008 4:55:08 AM   
wdolson

 

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There is also code in there for ships that are stabilized (pumped out, temporary flotation repairs) to head back to larger bases.  There is also a random event where the temporary fixes fail.  If you run at high speed, the probability of it happening goes up.

Bill


_____________________________

WitP AE - Test team lead, programmer

(in reply to pad152)
Post #: 19
RE: Eastern Fleet... - 8/7/2008 5:28:34 AM   
Don Bowen


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quote:

ORIGINAL: pad152

Nobody is going to be happy with getting a badly damaged carrier half way across the pacific, back safely in port, only to have it blow up in port a few weeks later! Nobody!!!


Accidents happen. An accident in a floating drydock took a British BB out of the war, and made an American destroyer Japanese. Could happen to any ship at any time. You play the game and you take your chances.



(in reply to pad152)
Post #: 20
RE: Eastern Fleet... - 8/7/2008 7:35:56 AM   
Andrew Brown


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From: Hex 82,170
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Don Bowen
Accidents happen. An accident in a floating drydock took a British BB out of the war, and made an American destroyer Japanese. Could happen to any ship at any time. You play the game and you take your chances.


Then there was the demise of the Mutsu. I am sure the IJN was not very happy about that, but it happened.

Andrew

(in reply to Don Bowen)
Post #: 21
RE: Eastern Fleet... - 8/7/2008 3:17:51 PM   
pad152

 

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I have no problems with any of the following but, ships blowing up in port? This is something that could ruin a campaign if it happens to the wrong ship at the wrong time more than once, I would hate to see an AE campaign  that takes a thousand hours come down to random numbers. We all know random numbers aren't all that random over the course of time and in game like AE that is a concern.


(ship) breaks towline and is lost at (location) You'll only see this one when moving ARD around. These guys are not very seaworthy and hard to "tow". Towing, of course, is not implemented but is assumed in any movement of ARDs or any out-of-fuel ship.

(ship) collides with (ship) at (location) Odds of this are much lower than reality. We may have to jack them up.

(ship) hits uncharted rock at (location) Only when running in shallow water, of course.

(in reply to Andrew Brown)
Post #: 22
RE: Eastern Fleet... - 8/7/2008 11:51:45 PM   
mikemike

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Don Bowen


(ship) hits uncharted rock at (location) Only when running in shallow water, of course.




This actually happened quite a number of times. The Kriegsmarine was prone to that in Norwegian waters. But bad luck also happens with charted obstacles, for instance, one of the US subs that sank three IJN CA's before Leyte (USS Darter?) ran aground on a coral reef because the navigators couldn't see the red reef markings on the chart due to red lighting in the boat (to conserve night vision). Even more bizarre was the case of the RN cruiser HMS Effingham during the Norway campaign: the Navigating Officer marked the intended course on the chart and with his pencil line unwittingly obscured the mark for an isolated rock. The ship ran right on track and ripped its guts out on the rock. Thirty meters to either side and nothing would have happened - a rare case of professional helmsmanship being a cause of disaster.

BTW, reading accounts of PT operations, it seems as if the most frequent cause of PT losses was running aground in shallow water. Will this be appropriately modelled in AE? Ships (boats) operating predominantly inshore should be prone to that kind of event.

I've always been for random events - poo happens in wartime when following safety regulations isn't always the number one priority. I'd like to see, now and then, an ammunition or fuel dump on land blow up. That must have happened occasionally. It would also be plausible as a possible event due to an air attack or a bombardment - be it naval or LCU.

_____________________________

DON´T PANIC - IT´S ALL JUST ONES AND ZEROES!

(in reply to Don Bowen)
Post #: 23
RE: Eastern Fleet... - 8/8/2008 7:06:06 AM   
Chris21wen

 

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From what I've read/understood AE is using CHS as its basis of the OOB, but I might be wrong. CHS itself has lots of different ships, one of my favourite being the 40kt Abdiel class ML. Which my the way in 1965 could still do well over 35kts and if my memory serves me well, with one of its boilers removed.

(in reply to SamRo115)
Post #: 24
RE: Eastern Fleet... - 8/8/2008 2:18:28 PM   
Don Bowen


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From: Georgetown, Texas, USA
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quote:

ORIGINAL: pad152

I have no problems with any of the following but, ships blowing up in port? This is something that could ruin a campaign if it happens to the wrong ship at the wrong time more than once, I would hate to see an AE campaign  that takes a thousand hours come down to random numbers. We all know random numbers aren't all that random over the course of time and in game like AE that is a concern.



There is some cushioning, but loss of a capital ship to accident during repair is possible. Repair events do not directly sink a ship, they just add more damage. If the damage level gets to 99, the ship sinks.




(in reply to pad152)
Post #: 25
RE: Eastern Fleet... - 8/10/2008 8:32:27 PM   
Don Bowen


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From: Georgetown, Texas, USA
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Chris H

From what I've read/understood AE is using CHS as its basis of the OOB, but I might be wrong. CHS itself has lots of different ships, one of my favourite being the 40kt Abdiel class ML. Which my the way in 1965 could still do well over 35kts and if my memory serves me well, with one of its boilers removed.


AE is based on stock, with new research. Some of the CHS guys are on the AE team but that's all.

The Abdiels are in, three of them if memory serves.

Speaking from the perspective of the Naval OOB, there are many more things that could be done if we only had another 10 years or so. So much research and so much work, and issues with game balance and playability. Many of the new ship classes put in are not yet used (like YP) but are there for the modder. Have fun, y'all.

As an aside, I can tell you that we have discovered some interesting things, even some errors in commenly used web OOB sites.


(in reply to Chris21wen)
Post #: 26
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