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Transport mysteries - 7/30/2008 6:02:20 PM   
firefly177

 

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Does anybody have a good method / forumula / process for ensuring that a task force has enough capacity to move a land unit without excessive waste or leaving part of the land unit behind? It never fails for me that I will either end up with way underutilized transports (not worrying about supplies) or hunks of the unit left behind. Thanks.

Jim
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RE: Transport mysteries - 7/30/2008 6:08:58 PM   
jeffk3510


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http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=1873805

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RE: Transport mysteries - 7/30/2008 6:34:56 PM   
Chris21wen

 

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There's no easy way. I use the Load cost AP and Load cost AK for the LCUs to determine which I use and rarely mix them. If I do I use 4 x AK for 1 xAP. Mostly works.

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RE: Transport mysteries - 7/30/2008 6:39:38 PM   
jeffk3510


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This link I just provided is just simple math...

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RE: Transport mysteries - 7/30/2008 7:43:35 PM   
John Lansford

 

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I don't mix AK's and AP's in the same TF either if I'm moving large LCU's.  To avoid leaving chunks behind, I usually make sure there's at least 25% overcapacity in the TF to carry the LCU, especially the really big ones.

What bothers me most is when I try and move the base units with an amphibious TF, and find out that the SC radar units don't fit in any amphibious craft, even an LST or LSD.  Those things could carry 20 tanks, I think a radar set and its vehicles would fit in one!

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RE: Transport mysteries - 7/30/2008 9:08:58 PM   
dpstafford


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The key to not leaving early with slow loading AP's is to not set destination until they have everything. And to toggle DO NOT UNLOAD until you ready to set off.

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RE: Transport mysteries - 7/30/2008 9:09:21 PM   
niceguy2005


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quote:

ORIGINAL: firefly177

Does anybody have a good method / forumula / process for ensuring that a task force has enough capacity to move a land unit without excessive waste or leaving part of the land unit behind? It never fails for me that I will either end up with way underutilized transports (not worrying about supplies) or hunks of the unit left behind. Thanks.

Jim

Guaranteed method
1. Look at how much AP or AK capacity is required to load a unit. This is on the unit screen.
2. Load only 1 unit into a TF
3. Set each TF to "do not unload"
4. Form as many TFs as needed to load all units you want to transport
5. After each unit is completely loaded on each TF combine them by transferring ships, etc., add escorts as desired and set it on its merry way.

Note: do not forget that to set the TF to "unload" before it reaches its final destination.

- If you let the computer try to load multiple units, it is as likely as not to screw it up.
- After you've played the game a while you learn what the computer can usually load without messing up and you know how many of what kinds of ships it takes.
- If it's an invasion force, do not forget to load some separate ships with only supplies. Which is yet in another TF that you will combine into the main TF when loading is complete. If all your supplies are on ships that also carry troops the troops unload first and then the supplies...nothing would suck more than hitting the beach with an empty rifle.

Edit: It is a curiousity that the computer gets easily confused if you try to load multiple units into a TF that has far more capacity than needed. I've seen it break up a construction rgt and put 2 squads on each AK, completely ignoring the rest of the units marked for loading...best to load 1 unit to 1 TF.

< Message edited by niceguy2005 -- 7/30/2008 9:11:36 PM >


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RE: Transport mysteries - 7/30/2008 9:21:13 PM   
John Lansford

 

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Yeah, really excessive capacity in a TF loading LCU's results in some odd results.  I had a large AK TF loading units at San Francisco for transit to Pearl, and decided to load two Seabee units and an artillery unit on them.  This was less than half the capacity of the TF so I wasn't worried.  Well, the artillery unit got spread over more than half the ships, leaving the engineers crammed into two ships each.  I don't think all of them got loaded either, even though the ships loaded plenty of supplies.

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RE: Transport mysteries - 7/31/2008 1:13:15 AM   
Gem35


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Not to sound like a "smarta$$" but follow VSWG's thread and you can't go wrong.
Life isn't that difficult folks.

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RE: Transport mysteries - 7/31/2008 4:16:33 AM   
mbatch729


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I just hope we get the same type of breakdown for AE...

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RE: Transport mysteries - 7/31/2008 7:33:37 AM   
Chris21wen

 

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I do the same and it does work.

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RE: Transport mysteries - 7/31/2008 9:04:03 AM   
Bogo Mil

 

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One thing: Task forces often stop loading (and unloading), if you disband another TF in the same port. Thus you have to check after each disband, if there were still (un)loading transports in the hex and restart their jobs if necessary. It is sometimes a bit difficult to restart troop loading. I avoid this completely and never disband a TF in a port where I'm loading big troop transports.

If you need AKs for troop transport, you should only use small ones. The AKs get mostly guns and tanks as cargo - they load fast, but unloading them is painfully slow. It can easily kill all your timing if they need 2 weeks to unload at a small port (even size 3 is quite small for unloading troops from AKs).


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RE: Transport mysteries - 7/31/2008 10:49:41 AM   
VSWG


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Bogo Mil

One thing: Task forces often stop loading (and unloading), if you disband another TF in the same port. Thus you have to check after each disband, if there were still (un)loading transports in the hex and restart their jobs if necessary.

Very true. A transport that has stopped loading doesn't mean that the transport is full. You have to look at the "capacity" column in the TF screen to find out if a ship is fully loaded. ".../100" means that the ship is fully loaded; with ".../99" or ".../98" some large devices might not fit in the remaining cargo capacity; everything below that means that "an undocumented design feature" has caused the ship to stop loading.

quote:

If you need AKs for troop transport, you should only use small ones. The AKs get mostly guns and tanks as cargo - they load fast, but unloading them is painfully slow. It can easily kill all your timing if they need 2 weeks to unload at a small port (even size 3 is quite small for unloading troops from AKs).

This is only true for infantry devices on AKs, they unload painfully slow. Vehicle, tank, and gun devices unload faster from AKs.

If it loads fast, it unloads fast.

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RE: Transport mysteries - 7/31/2008 12:22:23 PM   
m10bob


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quote:

ORIGINAL: John Lansford

I don't mix AK's and AP's in the same TF either if I'm moving large LCU's.  To avoid leaving chunks behind, I usually make sure there's at least 25% overcapacity in the TF to carry the LCU, especially the really big ones.

What bothers me most is when I try and move the base units with an amphibious TF, and find out that the SC radar units don't fit in any amphibious craft, even an LST or LSD.  Those things could carry 20 tanks, I think a radar set and its vehicles would fit in one!


Depending on the mod or version, ships capacities are never what they were in real life. Shame because some folks have done really extensive, outstanding research in this area. I believe JWE is one?

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RE: Transport mysteries - 7/31/2008 1:28:43 PM   
treespider


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quote:

ORIGINAL: m10bob


quote:

ORIGINAL: John Lansford

I don't mix AK's and AP's in the same TF either if I'm moving large LCU's. To avoid leaving chunks behind, I usually make sure there's at least 25% overcapacity in the TF to carry the LCU, especially the really big ones.

What bothers me most is when I try and move the base units with an amphibious TF, and find out that the SC radar units don't fit in any amphibious craft, even an LST or LSD. Those things could carry 20 tanks, I think a radar set and its vehicles would fit in one!


Depending on the mod or version, ships capacities are never what they were in real life. Shame because some folks have done really extensive, outstanding research in this area. I believe JWE is one?



Ahh but what WitP Mk I does not calculate is the differences in how units can be loaded. So modders - (JWE included) - have homogenized and pastuerized capacities to reflect that ships were not 100% efficent in the utilization of cargo space depending on load type.

AE goes a long way toward correcting WitP deficiencies in this regard with the introduction of combat loading and commercial loading.

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RE: Transport mysteries - 7/31/2008 2:18:03 PM   
firefly177

 

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Thank you for the connection to the link. It is a great discussion of the subject and helps a lot. Now I will have less excuses for a poorly utilized TF.

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RE: Transport mysteries - 7/31/2008 2:19:46 PM   
firefly177

 

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Thanks to all for your input.  This forum rocks!

Of course now I have to go find a cool avitar for myself....  :-)

Jim

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Post #: 17
RE: Transport mysteries - 7/31/2008 6:27:56 PM   
m10bob


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quote:

ORIGINAL: firefly177

Thanks to all for your input.  This forum rocks!

Of course now I have to go find a cool avitar for myself....  :-)

Jim


Yes....Yes you will!

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RE: Transport mysteries - 8/1/2008 7:19:59 AM   
bradfordkay

 

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"One thing: Task forces often stop loading (and unloading), if you disband another TF in the same port. Thus you have to check after each disband, if there were still (un)loading transports in the hex and restart their jobs if necessary."

This was supposed to be fixed with v1.806. What version are you playing?

From the v1.806 "what's new" file:

Note that v1.8.0.6 incremental production release includes the following changes:
Item 1 – Correct issues related to task forces discontinuing loading after another task force was disbanded in the same hex.

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RE: Transport mysteries - 8/1/2008 3:35:51 PM   
VSWG


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quote:

ORIGINAL: bradfordkay

"One thing: Task forces often stop loading (and unloading), if you disband another TF in the same port. Thus you have to check after each disband, if there were still (un)loading transports in the hex and restart their jobs if necessary."

This was supposed to be fixed with v1.806. What version are you playing?

From the v1.806 "what's new" file:

Note that v1.8.0.6 incremental production release includes the following changes:
Item 1 – Correct issues related to task forces discontinuing loading after another task force was disbanded in the same hex.

For me, this bug is still present. Less than before 1.806, but it still happens.

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RE: Transport mysteries - 8/1/2008 7:18:31 PM   
Cap Mandrake


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Y'all do realize that this discussion is so arcane as to scare away the neuro-typicals.

Good discussion VSWG! I had not read the manual but had already deduced that AK's were more efficient at loading armor and artillery. I did not know the offload penalty for infantry from AK's, but it makes sense.

I second Niceguy's advice. Load TF's by unit ...then combine after they are loaded. It is much cleaner. In the case of AP and AK's for amphibious landings, if you have sufficient lift capacity, underload your ships with troops and equipment (ie., try to have 2 or 3 times the necessary lift capacity so the the transports will be 33-50% full after the unit is loaded). The advantage here is the entire unit will get into the fight faster. You can "top off" the transports with supplies if you wish but the supplies wont unload until the unit is unloaded.

As someone said, it is ciritical to have transports containing only supplies in the landing hex on day 1 so they will begin off-loading on turn 1. Better to have 15 x 4500 ton AK's than 10 x 7000 ton as each ship will unload up to the limit evey day so you will get more ashore faster.

Stick a serious combatant vessel in each landing TF to deal with shore guns and soak up enemy air or surface attacks. A prewar BB works well for this if they have expended their bombardment ammo, though I think you will have to change to "escort TF" to add one. CA's and CL's do well against the shore guns but can't take too many torpedo hits.

Lord Admiral Tabpub taught me a good technique. It is a "practice load". If you are at a safe base and have time to recover you can practice load a TF (it will take several days)..then unload and recover the unit..adjusting your tf if needed before the big show...just do not name the thing "Operation Tiger".

Or, you can do a "faux practice load". Here is what you do:

1) save your turn

2) compose your tf and start loading a unit

3) in most cases this will eat up the 1000 op points and the unit will not be fully loaded but you can assess how it is going

4) if you dont like the way the AI is handling it, reload the save turn, make adjustments and do it again.

(I dont think this is gamey as the composition and planning of amphibious TF's was something that consumed much staff time and was planned to a high level of precision in major invasions)

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