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Re: Re: Re: WIR and Sources

 
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Re: Re: Re: WIR and Sources - 5/10/2002 10:27:51 PM   
dgaad

 

Posts: 864
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From: Hockeytown
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[QUOTE]Originally posted by czerpak
[B]

very dangerous thing to say for someone who is ( or considers himself to be - whichever is your case) a profi. :) [/B][/QUOTE]

Good god. Allow a little shorthand here will you? I'm not presenting a freaking thesis.

German officers were interviewed by allied officers after the war. Many of these officers were in prison at the time, some were not. The nature of the interview ran from the rather mundane attempt to find out what the Germans were doing tactically at some particular battle because the allies wanted to learn the reasons behind their successes and mistakes. For example, Speer got interviewed alot by the team that put together the US Strategic Bombing survey, to find out what real effect the bombing campaign had on the German economy.

Other interviews were not so routine. Such as attempts to find evidence by confession or inadvertant admission of participation in war crimes. Once again, Speer was interviewed by officers, and later by the Nuremburg prosecution team, over the extent of his complicity in the collection and use of slave labor.

So, the reliability of information gathered here was highly variable. A mundane interview could lead to evidence of war crimes, just the same a prosecutorial deposition could lead to contradictory evidence on the tactical viability of area bombing of cities or industrial areas.

There are hundreds of questions one has to ask about the material thus gathered.

As the world entered the Cold War, the constellation of motives for everyone began to change, the nature of information gathered also changed, and the reliablity of that information also changed, and it went in both directions at once. German officers became more willing to talk about things that might get them into trouble, and western allied officers and prosecutors/judge advocates became slightly more tolerant or forgiving.

Its a long and complicated story. So allow a little shorthand. Suffice to say no one can know "everything" about it, but one can at least understand the nature of those times and the nature of men and place everything into those contexts.

(in reply to Muzrub)
Post #: 121
Re: Re: WIR and Sources - 5/10/2002 10:33:38 PM   
Mark_BookGuy

 

Posts: 78
Joined: 4/5/2002
From: Chicago
Status: offline
[QUOTE]Originally posted by dgaad
[B]

I can't help feeling insulted by what you just wrote, but you really have no idea who I am or what I have done in studying history myself, so couldn't possbily be doing that except by assuming that I'm your normal "serious wargamer-casual historian" type and that what you wrote was your attempt to "teach". ;)

My sources are a good "bibiliography" for a "freshman term paper"?


I haven't read Keitel's work, sounds interesting. Did the impending gallows bring a sense of truth to the man, or was he attempting to cravenly protect what he knew would be his rather shoddy image and justify Nazi ideals for posterity? [/B][/QUOTE]

Sorry, not trying to be condescending; just replying to a pretty minimal list that you provided as the best seven items on the topic. Just trying to be helpful.:)

I find it hard to put Keitel's work in context. I guess knowing you're a Dead Nazi Walking plays on you. His basic argument is that he did what he had to do, knew he was getting dumped on, tried unsuccessfully to stop the worst of the atrocities, etc...you know, the usual apologist stuff. He basically admitted to be a stoolie (sic?), but I don't recall him ever admitting he didn't have the balls to quit. You've got to give a little credit to Arthur Seyss-Inquart, who at least was man enough to say at Nuremberg that since he praised Hitler before, he wasn't going to condemn him now. Even Telford Taylor said this took guts.

While reading Keitel I kept flashing back to reading Joshua Chamberlain's [I] Passing of the Armies[/I], written when he was near death. [I'm not equating Chamberlain to Keitel, BTW]. It's almost a surreal read.

When I was in grad school (lo, too many years ago), we used Guderian et al in a historiographical discussion. I am hoping to put together a grad-level course on it for Fall 2003.

Ciao.

_____________________________

Mark

"Outside of a dog, a book is man's best friend. Inside of a dog, it's too dark to read."

(in reply to Muzrub)
Post #: 122
Re: Re: Re: WIR and Sources - 5/10/2002 10:45:42 PM   
dgaad

 

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[QUOTE]Originally posted by Mark_BookGuy
[B]

When I was in grad school (lo, too many years ago), we used Guderian et al in a historiographical discussion. I am hoping to put together a grad-level course on it for Fall 2003.

Ciao. [/B][/QUOTE]

That would be an outstanding course! Wish I were a student again!!!

Anywho, ya I remember reading about Seyss-Inquart's famous last stand, and yes, I thought he had more guts than everyone on the dock put together, with the possible exception of Speer and Goering. Goering put up a good defense, and then killed himself (which takes some guts).

Speaking of Speer, what is the current assessment by historians of his story of Speer's own personal attempt to introduce poison gas into the Fuehrer bunker? Is this still accepted as the truth?

I've always believed that he conceived the plan and probably took some positive steps to accomplish it. He also had one or two accomplices if I recall that backed the story.

When it comes to guts, however, Speer did in fact submit his "The War Is Lost" memorandum to Hitler, which for other people would have been grounds for immediate execution by the SS, and he knew that risk. He also took positive steps to reduce the destruction caused by the order to destroy all means of production in Germany as the Russian and Allied forces advanced, and this also was grounds for immediate execution and he knew it. He could have gone along with it, but he didn't (at least not entirely).

(in reply to Muzrub)
Post #: 123
Re: Re: Re: Re: WIR and Sources - 5/10/2002 10:51:57 PM   
Mark_BookGuy

 

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From: Chicago
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[QUOTE]Originally posted by dgaad
[B]

That would be an outstanding course! Wish I were a student again!!!

[/B][/QUOTE]

Be careful what you ask for!

Anybody have a copy of N.M. Akalovich's [I] Oni zashchitali Minsk[/I] for a quick loan??

Ciao

_____________________________

Mark

"Outside of a dog, a book is man's best friend. Inside of a dog, it's too dark to read."

(in reply to Muzrub)
Post #: 124
Re: Re: Re: WIR and Sources - 5/13/2002 3:48:50 PM   
czerpak

 

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From: Poland
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[QUOTE]Originally posted by dgaad
[B]

Memoirs by people who have personally participated in events that are considered significant are by definition in and of themselves "primary sources". They are sources not because of what they say about past events in those memoirs, but because it is a record of their thoughts, feelings, ideas and so forth at the time they wrote the said memoir. This record is then relevant for determining the character and nature of the historical actor, which then in turn has an impact on how we view other relevant sources in determining the truth.

I'm sure we could have a very long debate about what is primary source material and what is considered secondary or tertiary source material, but lets not. [/B][/QUOTE]

Dgaad,
dont get me wrong, I really dont want to turn this into endless debate ( OTOH why not ?) and it is not my intention to prove I am right and you wrong. As we both know we can have 2 completely different opinions and still both be right ( thats what I love most in history). I was reading this thread with fun and interest ( its not that common people can keep their discussions in civilised manner). Back to our subject : I am sure you agree memories are usually less valuable sources then any other documents, unless one wants to find out what people want to hide about their past.

best regards
Maciej

_____________________________

Think first, fight afterwards, the soldier's art.

(in reply to Muzrub)
Post #: 125
Re: Re: Re: Re: WIR and Sources - 5/13/2002 4:03:45 PM   
czerpak

 

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Joined: 11/2/2001
From: Poland
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[QUOTE]Originally posted by dgaad
[B]

Good god. Allow a little shorthand here will you? I'm not presenting a freaking thesis.

German officers were interviewed by allied officers after the war. Many of these officers were in prison at the time, some were not. The nature of the interview ran from the rather mundane attempt to find out what the Germans were doing tactically at some particular battle because the allies wanted to learn the reasons behind their successes and mistakes. For example, Speer got interviewed alot by the team that put together the US Strategic Bombing survey, to find out what real effect the bombing campaign had on the German economy.

Other interviews were not so routine. Such as attempts to find evidence by confession or inadvertant admission of participation in war crimes. Once again, Speer was interviewed by officers, and later by the Nuremburg prosecution team, over the extent of his complicity in the collection and use of slave labor.

So, the reliability of information gathered here was highly variable. A mundane interview could lead to evidence of war crimes, just the same a prosecutorial deposition could lead to contradictory evidence on the tactical viability of area bombing of cities or industrial areas.

There are hundreds of questions one has to ask about the material thus gathered.

As the world entered the Cold War, the constellation of motives for everyone began to change, the nature of information gathered also changed, and the reliablity of that information also changed, and it went in both directions at once. German officers became more willing to talk about things that might get them into trouble, and western allied officers and prosecutors/judge advocates became slightly more tolerant or forgiving.

Its a long and complicated story. So allow a little shorthand. Suffice to say no one can know "everything" about it, but one can at least understand the nature of those times and the nature of men and place everything into those contexts. [/B][/QUOTE]

I was reffering to word "ALL" as you noticed. I am pretty sure you know 1000 % more about abovementioned story then myself and your last phrase explained perfectly what I meant so nothing left to say for me.

_____________________________

Think first, fight afterwards, the soldier's art.

(in reply to Muzrub)
Post #: 126
- 5/13/2002 4:09:15 PM   
dgaad

 

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All sources of material vary in reliability.

Documents from divisions showing daily casualties in a particular battle are not necessarily reliable.

We are talking about what historians consider "Primary" sources, and what they consider to be other types of sources -- known under the general heading of "Secondary" sources.

(in reply to Muzrub)
Post #: 127
Entrenchment and Sources - 5/13/2002 7:04:56 PM   
Mark_BookGuy

 

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Believe it or not, this thread all started as a way to help with Soviet manpower problems in WIR. Now it's on historiography and historical methodology. God Bless America!

I would only add that any source needs to be looked at in the context of its creation and intended use, and within the framework of other data. The context is everything. What I started with a number of postings ago is that a lot of folks read works such as Guderian's, Manstein's, Zhukov's (or anybody elses for that matter) and assume it's gospel. Most don't know (or care to know??) the rationale behind the work and its times. Anyway.....

Did anybody see the results of the recent nationawide hsitory test? Grim. Very grim. Sadly, it's not surprising.:confused:

Ciao

_____________________________

Mark

"Outside of a dog, a book is man's best friend. Inside of a dog, it's too dark to read."

(in reply to Muzrub)
Post #: 128
- 5/13/2002 7:17:12 PM   
matt.buttsworth

 

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No. Not in Switzerland. What were the results? I am interested.

(in reply to Muzrub)
Post #: 129
- 5/13/2002 7:17:30 PM   
dgaad

 

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I think Grim is the right word there.

The old adage those who forget history are doomed to repeat it is true. Sad part is, you would never know or believe the old adage to be true unless you knew history and had seen the same patterns of human tragedy over and over again.

BTW : the results showed that less than 40% of adults had even a BASIC understanding or knowledge of US history.

This shouldn't be any surprise to those who watch the Leno interviews with college students who not only don't know when World War Two started, but don't even know who or what we were fighting against. One student was asked who attacked Pearl Harbor and the reply was : "The British".

(in reply to Muzrub)
Post #: 130
- 5/13/2002 7:26:09 PM   
matt.buttsworth

 

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Pretty dreadful. The British?
In Australia they had a history lesson on teh 1960s I had to give. That was dreadful too. High School students.

(in reply to Muzrub)
Post #: 131
- 5/13/2002 8:05:28 PM   
Ed Cogburn

 

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[QUOTE]Originally posted by dgaad
[B]One student was asked who attacked Pearl Harbor and the reply was : "The British". [/B][/QUOTE]


You can't be serious! What college produced this idiot, do you remember?

(in reply to Muzrub)
Post #: 132
Idiot students - 5/13/2002 8:18:25 PM   
Mark_BookGuy

 

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From: Chicago
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[QUOTE]Originally posted by Ed Cogburn
[B]


You can't be serious! What college produced this idiot, do you remember? [/B][/QUOTE]

I'll bet just about any college would qualify. Never underestimate the complete ignorance of history in the US.

I mean, we all know that MI5 and OSS planned it.;)

_____________________________

Mark

"Outside of a dog, a book is man's best friend. Inside of a dog, it's too dark to read."

(in reply to Muzrub)
Post #: 133
- 5/13/2002 8:33:30 PM   
dgaad

 

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Ed : I'm totally serious.

The single most disturbing thing I watch on TV isn't all the stories of priest-child molestors, 10,000 kurdish babies killed by poison gas, nope, not even the world trade center going down. Its Jay Leno's interviews with college students. He does them occasionally at the beginning of the show where the go out to places like UCLA and Pepperdine or UC-Santa Barbara. The answers these students give to the simplest questions, questions that matter like "was Britain our ally or enemy in World War II?" or "When the US declared independence, did we declare independence from Canada, China, or Britain" (and yes there were students who said China) are simply beyond belief.

These people are in COLLEGE for god's sake. They are the one's in society that are SUPPOSED to know these things, and they don't have the slightest clue. No, they are studying things like "business" or "graphic design". I mean, how can you do ANYTHING well if you don't even know basic things that any 6th grader should know?

To add even more disturbance to the disturbing, not only do they clearly not know the answer, they MAKE UP answers and pretend its the right answer. I mean, the student who said "The British" gave it with a straight face like, "of course its the right answer because I thought about it for a few seconds, and I've learned that whatever I feel is the right thing, so long as I've thought about it."

I can't begin to tell you just how disturbing to me this is. An entire generation of kids who have already grown up and are beginning to matriculate into the real world, who really have no real knowledge at all, but think that real knowledge is composed of the ability to think and a belief in the rightness of self. Where does that lead to?

It doesn't lead to truth or good governments I will tell you that.

(in reply to Muzrub)
Post #: 134
Vicarious history - 5/13/2002 9:18:46 PM   
Montenegro

 

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Ignorance is bliss as far as most governments are concerned. Just look at most democracies.


Since Soviet entrenchment has evolved (or some might say, devolved) around a great history tirade, here's more food for the conjecture (aka Devil's Advocate Arm Chair Field Marshall):

What if Hitler, in a moment of clarity and sanity, decided to focus on conquering N. Africa and the vast oil reserves instead of launching Barbarossa in '41??? I hope to open Pandoras box all the way and invite other historical revisions...

Regards,

Montenegro

(in reply to Muzrub)
Post #: 135
History is dead - 5/14/2002 2:51:18 AM   
davewolf

 

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Human ignorance (of many things) is one (strong) momentum of forgetting history (world-wide). Another one is the poor presentation still usual.
Don't get me wrong! I don't blame any teacher. They have a hard job (too many pupils, too many classes, social conflicts etc.). I blame [I]the system[/I] of not showing the stories behind reign datas.
I, personally, am very much interested in history, but definitely not because of the lessons I [I]enjoyed[/I]. Actually they were very boring. (Again, this isn't against teachers!) So I can understand that a lot of young people got tired of this, even though it's very sad.

Maybe we should get Robin Williams cloned and let him make dead stones appear alive. :D

Dave

(in reply to Muzrub)
Post #: 136
Re: History is dead - 5/14/2002 4:07:32 PM   
czerpak

 

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[QUOTE]Originally posted by davewolf
[B]Human ignorance (of many things) is one (strong) momentum of forgetting history (world-wide). Another one is the poor presentation still usual.
Don't get me wrong! I don't blame any teacher. They have a hard job (too many pupils, too many classes, social conflicts etc.). I blame [I]the system[/I] of not showing the stories behind reign datas.
I, personally, am very much interested in history, but definitely not because of the lessons I [I]enjoyed[/I]. Actually they were very boring. (Again, this isn't against teachers!) So I can understand that a lot of young people got tired of this, even though it's very sad.

Maybe we should get Robin Williams cloned and let him make dead stones appear alive. :D

Dave [/B][/QUOTE]

Dave, I have totally opposite experience ( I know it is exception). My history teacher in primary school was so good in teaching, that he hooked me for live ( and quite a few others). And I am telling you teachers in Poland were ( and sadly still are, even after all changes) in much worse situation ( socialy, economicaly etc) then you can think of. And then people I met at Uni in history department - some of them top in Europe. That was heaven on earth ( especially after 5 boring years in bussines school) But even more important what I remember best from parents home are BOOKS. Everywhere and always : books, books, books.... Thats something you get from home - interests, live style etc. School only focused me on certain things, mostly history but many other topics as well : geography ( finally last year we got polish edition of National Geographic, thanx God), philosophy, just to name most important ones. Sadly from this year report - 60 % of Poles did not read a single book in whole year !!! I know families where the only thing you can find to read is a checkbook.
So as US is leading the world in a matter of ignorance, you are not the only ones, my friends :)

Maciej

_____________________________

Think first, fight afterwards, the soldier's art.

(in reply to Muzrub)
Post #: 137
Stupidity - 5/15/2002 4:21:51 PM   
davewolf

 

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Since a lot of parents (at the industrialized world) seem to believe that tv+playstation=upbringing+education things will probably become even worse IMHO.

(in reply to Muzrub)
Post #: 138
Re: Stupidity - 5/15/2002 5:36:00 PM   
Lokioftheaesir

 

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Just goes to show.

If you have an idea why you are where you are, where you came from. Why peoples act they way they do and what they want. Where the countries of the world are and how they were made.
Then you have the grass roots knowledge to an understanding of humanity that can be built on to
achieve even greater understanding.
A child of a poor village in Zaire might have no opportunity to learn these things. That is the tradgedy of these times. Not the fall of the Trade towers or 'terrorist acts' in Israel but the ongoing tacit support for ignorance that curses our world.

Loki

_____________________________

Gentile or Jew
O you who turn the wheel and look to windward,
Consider Phlebas, who was once handsome and tall as you.

(in reply to Muzrub)
Post #: 139
- 5/15/2002 9:17:46 PM   
czerpak

 

Posts: 271
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From: Poland
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Dave,
it is entirely up to us, isnt it? My 2,5 years old girl has more books then most people see in entire live. And she is not forced to - she asks me for something new about Winnie the Pooh on every day basis. Funny to watch when she pretends she reads and make up stories. Sure she loves TV, but thats something we cant do much about, I guess. I just make sure she doesnt watch japanese cartoons, but I know by heart Teletubies and Bob the Builder LOL.

_____________________________

Think first, fight afterwards, the soldier's art.

(in reply to Muzrub)
Post #: 140
Ignornace can be a very good thing - 5/15/2002 11:10:34 PM   
Mark_BookGuy

 

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From: Chicago
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You guys are far too tough on ignorance.

Without it, we would have no need for consultants, most managers would be fired, armies would be demilitarized, and there would be massive political upheaval. Oh, and most religions would be abandoned (opiate of the masses, anyone?).

There would be no need for web forums to discuss the most arcane and inane aspects of the eastern front.

One man's ignornace is another man's job. So, if you like full emplyment, support ignorance!

[All in good humor, guys. No flames!] :p

_____________________________

Mark

"Outside of a dog, a book is man's best friend. Inside of a dog, it's too dark to read."

(in reply to Muzrub)
Post #: 141
- 5/15/2002 11:31:06 PM   
Chairman

 

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From: Goteborg, Sweden
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Teletubbies and Bob Builder :eek:

Teletubbies have been on for about 4 and a half year home, my oldest loved it and now my second has to see it. Both love Bob Builder so it is to set some times were they can look on the TV and yes the Japanese movies is not good.

(in reply to Muzrub)
Post #: 142
The Sardonic Lives - 5/15/2002 11:37:21 PM   
Montenegro

 

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Mark, all,

I'm glad this forum goes round and around seriousness and the silly!

I'm going to add one further conquerer to the Moscow argument, all in good fun of course...

In a bold and decisive manuever only surpassed by the invention of the Happy Meal, General Ronald McDonald and his army of fully armed, well-trained Hamburglers invaded the pricipalities of Moscow in the latter 80's (the exact date and time escapes me in my fit of reverie). Throngs of Ivans rounded the block for the Big Mac, the Quarter Pounder, and yes, the dreaded McRib, all in an effort to affirm their cholesterol craved occupation and submission to the dreaded, but alarmingly tasty, clown cadres.

Laugh and learn

Montenegro

(in reply to Muzrub)
Post #: 143
Re: The Sardonic Lives - 5/16/2002 2:41:46 PM   
Ed Cogburn

 

Posts: 1979
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From: Greeneville, Tennessee - GO VOLS!
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[QUOTE]Originally posted by Montenegro
[B]
In a bold and decisive manuever only surpassed by the invention of the Happy Meal, General Ronald McDonald and his army of fully armed, well-trained Hamburglers invaded the pricipalities of Moscow in the latter 80's (the exact date and time escapes me in my fit of reverie). Throngs of Ivans rounded the block for the Big Mac, the Quarter Pounder, and yes, the dreaded McRib, all in an effort to affirm their cholesterol craved occupation and submission to the dreaded, but alarmingly tasty, clown cadres.
[/B][/QUOTE]


:) :) :)

You know, I haven't seen a Ronald McDonald commercial in *years*. I'm surprised anyone still remembers the Hamburgler. :D

(in reply to Muzrub)
Post #: 144
Re: The Sardonic Lives - 5/17/2002 3:16:44 PM   
davewolf

 

Posts: 1840
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From: On world conquest.
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[QUOTE]Originally posted by Montenegro
[B]In a bold and decisive manuever only surpassed by the invention of the Happy Meal, General Ronald McDonald and his army of fully armed, well-trained Hamburglers invaded the pricipalities of Moscow in the latter 80's (the exact date and time escapes me in my fit of reverie). Throngs of Ivans rounded the block for the Big Mac, the Quarter Pounder, and yes, the dreaded McRib, all in an effort to affirm their cholesterol craved occupation and submission to the dreaded, but alarmingly tasty, clown cadres.[/B][/QUOTE]
Reminds me that I read about that campaign some years ago. I was very surprised that such an attack could ever be successful. Just have a look at their deployment: two armies (the [I]1st Beef[/I] and the [I]2nd Chicken[/I]) in a frontal attack side by side. Their flanks and rear only protected by the [I]Salad Division[/I] and the allied [I]French Fries Corps[/I]. Astonishing.
And the fact that neither the Russian elite troops (the famous [I]Vodkas[/I]), nor the Russian winter could stop the advance and turn the attacker into soft ice still irritates me.

(in reply to Muzrub)
Post #: 145
Stalin shakes and Nazi nuggets - 5/22/2002 7:32:56 AM   
Mark_BookGuy

 

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From: Chicago
Status: offline
It looks like this thread has come to a sad ending. From entrenchment, manpower problems, taking McMoscow, to the hamburgler. It looks like everyone is fried, unless someone eggs us on and shakes things up.

My, how war degenerates to the basics. An army marches on its stomach after all. Sausage biscuit anyone?

_____________________________

Mark

"Outside of a dog, a book is man's best friend. Inside of a dog, it's too dark to read."

(in reply to Muzrub)
Post #: 146
- 5/22/2002 1:47:18 PM   
Lokioftheaesir

 

Posts: 548
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From: Oz
Status: offline
[QUOTE]Originally posted by czerpak
[B]Dave,
it is entirely up to us, isnt it? My 2,5 years old girl has more books then most people see in entire live. And she is not forced to - she asks me for something new about Winnie the Pooh on every day basis. Funny to watch when she pretends she reads and make up stories. Sure she loves TV, but thats something we cant do much about, I guess. I just make sure she doesnt watch japanese cartoons, but I know by heart Teletubies and Bob the Builder LOL. [/B][/QUOTE]

Well then lets expand on Maciej's unfair tactic of supplying books to his kids.
If you want your own kids to grow up with half a brain you have to expect at some time or another to have to explain why they are picked on at school. I used the example that most would use.

" Those kids are envious of you. You do well in class and that gives them the ***** cause they think they should do well without using their Brains." (minds)

They do not understand that the mind gets bigger with exercise just like muscles. If you want your Brain (and thus yourself) to work better then you must use it.

All Peoples have the option to use their Minds.
They just need to be taught that they can.

Loki

PS. Using the 'Mind' does not involve getting up in the morning or making coffee or any other 'habit' rituals. It involves application of ones mental powers to deduce and or synthesise ideas or concepts that stand unanswered or (if you decide so) answered wrongly.
The most important word in any language is 'why'.

_____________________________

Gentile or Jew
O you who turn the wheel and look to windward,
Consider Phlebas, who was once handsome and tall as you.

(in reply to Muzrub)
Post #: 147
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