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Order Summary Table - 5/5/2008 9:28:37 PM   
rickier65

 

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I've posted an image of an order summary table -

It's actually just the start, and I'd welcome suggestions.

It has a number of quesion marks - and to be honest - I'm not sure the entries are all correct.

I do have questions on speed though-

1) I was sure I saw my Pioneer squads moving faster than my HMG. However, I looked at the speed in the PID viewer and they were the same - Seems like even for these distances there should be some speed penalty for HMG and mortars.

2) Also - I found NO infantry with a RUSH speed indicated. Is there just a hardcoded increase in Infantry unit RUSH speed?

If folks will comment on table, I'll be glad to edit and post summary table (in RTF or Txt or pdf format). It may need more columns for things I havent thought of.

Thanks,
Rick





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RE: Order Summary Table - 5/5/2008 9:56:24 PM   
thewood1

 

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It is a great start, but Matrix really needs to fill this in or we may be just guessing at it.

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RE: Order Summary Table - 5/5/2008 10:17:38 PM   
Kineas


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I'd guess it's easier to hit rushing troops, the -2 modifier lowers the toHit number

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RE: Order Summary Table - 5/5/2008 10:20:05 PM   
thewood1

 

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What does the -2 mean?  Is it 20% harder to hit with a -2 modifier?

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RE: Order Summary Table - 5/5/2008 10:22:58 PM   
Erik Rutins

 

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I'll put a guide/chart together sometime this week, I just need a bit of time to organize notes.

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RE: Order Summary Table - 5/6/2008 12:48:46 AM   
rickier65

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kineas

I'd guess it's easier to hit rushing troops, the -2 modifier lowers the toHit number


EDIT: I'm pretty sure its harder to hit rushing squad. (the manual says - "if it's moving fast enough" it's harder to hit.). But that might only apply to vehicles.



Rick


< Message edited by Rick -- 5/6/2008 1:08:37 AM >

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RE: Order Summary Table - 5/6/2008 1:05:40 AM   
Erik Rutins

 

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If a moving unit is the target, the accuracy modifiers are:

Movement Modifiers:
Target Moved and Range <= 600m: -1
Target Moved and Range > 600m: -2

If a moving unit is doing the firing, the accuracy modifiers are:

Firing Unit Moved (Shift Move): -2
Firing Unit Moved (Half Speed): -3
Firing Unit Moved (Normal Speed): -4

Check pp.52 and later in the manual to also see the other modifiers based on terrain and such.

Note that fire directed at a Rushing infantry unit in clear terrain gets a +1 to its Firepower and Rushing infantry units only get any kind of cover reduction in Heavy Woods, otherwise they get no benefit from cover.

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RE: Order Summary Table - 5/6/2008 1:12:19 AM   
rickier65

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: thewood1

It is a great start, but Matrix really needs to fill this in or we may be just guessing at it.



I wasn't guessing - I was trying to go through the manual and look at the factors. as well as read the qualitative info in th orders descritpion.

But some I wasn't sure of - so I guess you could call that guessing.


EDIT : couldn't find the referencew to the -2 for Rush.


Rick




< Message edited by Rick -- 5/6/2008 5:39:51 AM >

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RE: Order Summary Table - 5/6/2008 10:29:19 AM   
JudgeDredd


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I got the impression thewood1 was suggesting Matrix fill in the blanks or we could be guessing trying to fill them in, not that you were guessing 

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RE: Order Summary Table - 5/6/2008 3:19:24 PM   
Grell

 

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Exactly JD.

Regards,

Greg

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RE: Order Summary Table - 5/6/2008 4:24:38 PM   
PDiFolco

 

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Giving a penalty to hit moving inf is kinda weird imho - it's offset only with higher firepower against rushing inf. So eventually Moving/engaging/advancing inf is LESS vulnerable than when immobile ? It's wrong...

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RE: Order Summary Table - 5/6/2008 4:35:30 PM   
Erik Rutins

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: PDiFolco
Giving a penalty to hit moving inf is kinda weird imho - it's offset only with higher firepower against rushing inf. So eventually Moving/engaging/advancing inf is LESS vulnerable than when immobile ? It's wrong...


Actually, the loss of cover and increase in firepower has a much greater effect than the -1 to hit because all the negative effects (suppression, casualties, broken morale) come from the firepower roll. The net effect is that moving (especially in the open) is more vulnerable, not less. Feel free to test this yourself if you feel otherwise, I'm sure you'll change your mind pretty quickly.


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RE: Order Summary Table - 5/6/2008 4:45:06 PM   
PDiFolco

 

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Erik
You said the increase in FP was only vs rushing inf... and I comparde a Moving inf in the open to an immobile one (in the open as well). Then you reply comparing a rushing inf in the open to one immobile in cover ?

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RE: Order Summary Table - 5/6/2008 4:50:01 PM   
Erik Rutins

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: PDiFolco
You said the increase in FP was only vs rushing inf... and I comparde a Moving inf in the open to an immobile one (in the open as well). Then you reply comparing a rushing inf in the open to one immobile in cover?


I'm not sure I understand the question exactly, but here's the idea if we're talking about squads in the open - very slow "sneak" movement orders like Defend -> Move are about the same as being stationary. You're slightly (-1) harder to hit but easier (+5) to spot. Orders like Engage -> Move and Rush get the -1 to be hit, but they also get a +10 or +15 to be spotted and a +1 on all firepower against them. That firepowere bonus is a pretty significant effect which outweighs the -1 to be hit.

Being stationary is the best defense since you will often not be spotted at all and thus not shot, unless the enemy is pretty close. Any real movement (normal or full speed) in the open makes you vulnerable, but very slow movement can be almost as safe as being stationary.

Ah, wait - yes, I did only mention Rushing infantry above but that's because of the context. I also pointed you all to the manual where you can see that even non-Rushing infantry gets a +1 firepower against them when moving in the open. Only very slow movement in the open doesn't get the firepower bonus for enemy fire.

Here's a quick summary for movement in the open:

Stationary
No modifier to be hit
No modifier to be spotted
No modifier to enemy firepower

Defend -> Move
-1 to be Hit
+5 to be Spotted
No modifier to enemy firepower

Engage -> Move
-1 to be Hit
+10 to be Spotted
+1 to enemy firepower

Rush
-1 to be Hit
+15 to be Spotted
+1 to enemy firepower

It's also worth noting that when you are not in the open, faster movement types can lose you all cover bonuses, which actually results in a large net firepower bonus for the enemy.

Regards,

- Erik

< Message edited by Erik Rutins -- 5/6/2008 4:54:05 PM >


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RE: Order Summary Table - 5/6/2008 7:21:51 PM   
PDiFolco

 

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Thanks Erik, it makes more sense this way. There's still a problem imho with the "added" protection afforded by Defend/Move - being easier to spot is a drawback, but if fired upon (thus already spotted) it still means that your fare better Moving than staying in place, which is not logical.

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RE: Order Summary Table - 5/6/2008 7:27:45 PM   
Erik Rutins

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: PDiFolco
Thanks Erik, it makes more sense this way. There's still a problem imho with the "added" protection afforded by Defend/Move - being easier to spot is a drawback, but if fired upon (thus already spotted) it still means that your fare better Moving than staying in place, which is not logical.


I'm glad it helped, I hope the more detailed full orders info later this week will help as well.

If you assume that they are sneaking/crawling, then it does make some sense (at least to me). Staying in one spot in the open if you've been spotted can be more dangerous than crawling away. I think being in the open in general is not a great thing for infantry, but the best defense is really to avoid being spotted if you have to be in the open.

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RE: Order Summary Table - 5/6/2008 10:35:01 PM   
z1812


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Hi Erik,

A suggestion. I am hoping when you make your table that you keep the same form for display and explanantion as Rick used in his first post.

The way he has arranged it makes it quite easy to use.

regards John

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RE: Order Summary Table - 5/6/2008 10:57:14 PM   
Mad Russian


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Again, it depends on the combat model you are using.

Rushing infantry is harder to hit and spends less time in the tartget zone.

It's also in the wide open with no regard for it's own safety other than speed. IF they get hit they get hit very hard.

So, which abstraction do you use?

Erik, has explained the rationale behind the one that PC uses. The combat models could be done to highlight the situation either way. This is the PC way.

Good Hunting.

MR

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RE: Order Summary Table - 5/12/2008 4:18:17 PM   
Agrippa


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Nice effort on the chart!  This is exactly what's needed.

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Post #: 19
RE: Order Summary Table - 5/12/2008 4:45:29 PM   
Erik Rutins

 

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Still working on this, sorry for the delay folks, I just have a pretty full plate of work.

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