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Once again, timeline for 7.1 SPWaW patch?

 
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Once again, timeline for 7.1 SPWaW patch? - 3/20/2002 9:54:10 AM   
KG Erwin


Posts: 8981
Joined: 7/25/2000
From: Cross Lanes WV USA
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I already know the programmed response, Paul. It'll be ready when it's ready. This is supposed to the FINAL SpWaW, in lieu of the eventual release of Combat Leader. (This is probably a comment that belongs in the general discussion category.) I've tried my best to be a cheerleader for Matrix, but I'll admit publicly that my patience is wearing thin. You've stated the fact that Matrix has a multitude of projects going on simultaneously, and that is self-evident. While I personally disagree with your company strategy, I DO understand your rationale. You'll continue to have my support, for what it's worth, with some reservations. I'm also sure that other long-time members of the forum have some similar concerns. The only reason I'm bitching now is that Matrix is still a company on the make, and I'm sure I speak for many of us veterans in that we want to see Matrix as a "going concern" for years to come. I would also regard buyers of Matrix products as indirect investors in the company. Given the fact that so many current wargames are subject to multiple patches and upgrades, this is a legitimate concern for players of your games. I hope you, Paul, and the forum vets understand my concerns, and don't construe my comments as undue criticisms. Glenn Higginbotham.
Post #: 1
- 3/20/2002 12:51:53 PM   
Paul Vebber


Posts: 11430
Joined: 3/29/2000
From: Portsmouth RI
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You know the answer and apparantly don't like it. I don't take that as criticism, but I find it hard to understand your lost patience with us.

Its a simple economic relationship.

People buy a healthy number of games. We get money. Money lets me convince my wife that its a useful way to spend my free time after I get home from my "real job" working on games.

As opposed to...

People don't buy very many games. We get little money. It's hard to convince my wife that she should do all the chores around the house while I screw off doing "game stuff". The money goes to pay for bandwidth and servers and stuff. My wife is not impressed. I have less time to work. Schedules slip.

I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but computer wargaming is in extremis. Despite the fact all but one of our games are getting good to excellent reviews (and our one laggard has a decent shot in the arm with the latest patch), we are getin g good press from the likes of Bill Trotter at PC Games. Sales pretty much suck.

That causes things to slow down. Money = speed to market in this business. Things slowing down cause people like you to voice concerns. That can start a spiral in a bad direction.

We wasted far more time on SP:WaW in hindsight than we ever should have. The result of all the effort to try to educate the community on various details end up with posts that ask for "authentic" values becasue the one's I've researched don't match a number in a book. (No hard feelings Warhorse...)

Well if after all the effort and hundreds of posts trying to work with you folks and let you know why we did what we did and why the numbers are what they are. Well I can only conclude we failed. I failed. We will try a somewhat fifferent angle in COmbat Leader. But the deal was that we needed to sell 7000 copies of THe MC's to continue SP:WaW support and move ahead with Combat Leader. We will be lucky to get halfway.

I'm sorry your patience is wearing thin, but the support is simply not there for it.

I've posted details about how Combat Leader will work, asking for input and discussion. A handful respond. Most seem to care less. it probably sounds "too complicated" to most. I'll keep posting there and the few who participate I hope I will learn from and they from me.

What is it you want from us Glenn? Why is your patience wearing thin? Its a two way street. How can we be expected to somehow sprinkle fairy dust and realease bug-free state of the art products when the sales support is simply not there?

We provide patch after patch in response to requests and bugs in SP:WaW and what has it gotten us? One third complain that the patches come out to quickly, another that they aren't fast enough and the last third complains there issues aren;t addressed. SOme show there support and buy the Mega campaigns, but nothing near the 7000 copies we thought we might sell. Wishfull thingking on our part.

We give an unprecedented level of visibility into our design process for Combat lEader and what do we get. a couple handfuls of enthused, but little response.

And the "cheerleaders" get restless and lose their patience.

Why? What magic beans are we supposed to have to grow games from nothing? I'm amazed at what we have accomplished. Uncommon Valor is going to be a bellweather for the hobby. Lots of folks will be watching it. If it does well, then wargaming might have a chance. If not then you better get used to a game here or a game there from individuals working years on them. But nobody will be making their living at it.

For whatever the reason wargamers are buying fewer and fewer games. ANYBODY'S games If the trend continnues the way its going 5 years from now the pickens will be extremely slim.

If you are not buying games from as many publishers as you can, then you patience will get worn a lot thinner as it takes longer and longer for games to get to market and the production value gets lower and lower.

If we don't sell enough games to make it worth our while then we all lose.

We know at least 70,000 individuals downloaded SP:WaW. How many more got it in the magazine discs a year ago. who knows. If 10% are not willing to pony up and buy one megacampaign, then teh conclusion is that teh community apparantly expects us to do this for free or at best a couple grand a year (at a third world hourly return).

You have a right to be losing patience. But look hard at who it is you should be losing your patience with...

(in reply to KG Erwin)
Post #: 2
- 3/20/2002 1:10:24 PM   
Mojo

 

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I'm just going to say that I'm happy with what you have given to the community Paul. I bought my first MC as a way to support you. When I figure in the amount of time I spend on the forum and playing the game it's the best value for my entertainment dollar I've found.

I appreciate it and if you never patch the game I'll be somewhat disappointed but I'd understand. How much free stuff can I take and not feel like a glutton?

And if you come out with a new game that I find interesting, and there are a couple in the works, I'll buy those before I buy from any other company.

I love ya man!

Now.... got any jobs?:D At least can I be a beta tester:confused:

Keep up the good work the vast majority of us appreciate it. You have a thankless job

(in reply to KG Erwin)
Post #: 3
- 3/20/2002 1:18:56 PM   
Randy

 

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Paul, just to let you know you have my support. After all the hard work you guys have done pretty much for free, I can see your dissapointment at the game sales. I really find it hard to believe that as inexpensive as the MC's+7.0 are, you don't have that many sales. People should think that if they had bought the game in the store it would have sold for at least $50.00. I think when I bought the original SP, it was close to $60.00 back in 96.
I haven't played many other games other than the SP series, but from what I have seen SPWAW is far ahead of the other games. I wish there was an answer. Keep up the good work!

_____________________________

Semper Fi
Randy

The United States Marines: America's 911 Force-The Tip of the Spear

(in reply to KG Erwin)
Post #: 4
- 3/20/2002 8:00:50 PM   
Joe

 

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I must say that I would have bought all the mc's, but I found it ridiculous to pay huge amount for postage to Finland. I think that expensive postage to Europe has really hurt your european sales. Anyway, I bought the DF and I have not even played it. :(

_____________________________

- Joe

(in reply to KG Erwin)
Post #: 5
- 3/20/2002 8:42:49 PM   
Paul Vebber


Posts: 11430
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From: Portsmouth RI
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Have you checked out our dealers page? Many of them offer better postage rates within Europe then we can from the states.

We appreciate the support, but the bottom line problem runs deep.

Addressing the fundamental problems:

The bottom line is wargamers need to work to be more inclusive, less divisive and encourage people who post on these boards (reffering to wargaming fora in general and not just this one) to learn and be mentored. Not embarrassed as a dumb-ass.

IF a newbie posts a "stupid question" the worst thing you can do is embarress them. IT happens all the time here and at other baords and frankly those of you that routinely do it are the problem.

We are not going to attract new blood to the hobby if the old continues to routine shove their face in their ignorance, rathe than help them out. There are of course exceptions, and we all have our bad days.

But sense of community is a big reason kids play games and frankly we have a very elitist community as wargamers and are our own worst enemy most of the time enticing people in.

If you want to contribute to the future of wargaming, start with encouraging rather than disparaging the newbies. Write AAR's to get people excted about the games. COntribute OOB revisions, scenarios, articles.

v7.1 is nearing completion and once it is out the future of SP:WaW is up to you. You will have to wait for combat Leader for remaining issues to be "fixed". I played 9 scenarios in the last three days, 2 online. Is it perfect? No, what game is? Even the vaunted CM continues to draw complaints about LOS issues, AI idiosyncrasies, etc. No game is perfect.

BUt its an awful lot of fun.

Something that a casual puruser of these and similar boards would hardly gleen from the tone of many posts and the condescending attidude a smal but vocal minority have.

The Quiet Men must speak up. The wargame community is fracturing and wihtout effort on all our parts to stregthen it our hobby will become the domain of a crumudgeonly few who spend most of their time arguing why all teh games are screwed up, rather than enjoying them.

End of diatribe. I am not criticizing this thread or this forum but the wargaming community in general - forums, newsgroups, etc.

(in reply to KG Erwin)
Post #: 6
- 3/20/2002 8:51:11 PM   
ZoomBoy27


Posts: 75
Joined: 8/13/2001
From: Vancouver BC Canada
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[QUOTE]Originally posted by Joe
[B]I must say that I would have bought all the mc's, but I found it ridiculous to pay huge amount for postage to Finland. I think that expensive postage to Europe has really hurt your european sales. Anyway, I bought the DF and I have not even played it. :( [/B][/QUOTE]

http://www.matrixgames.com/insidemg/dealers.php


This is the dealers page. check it out


ZoomBoy

[edit] Marc Schwanebeck: I edited this post to give the correct link

(in reply to KG Erwin)
Post #: 7
The WARM FUZZIES - 3/21/2002 1:00:01 AM   
campekenobi

 

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From: Maryland
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I could not read all of Paul's comments and NOT respond! Let me just say that when I first joined the forum (not too long ago!) I must have met the RIGHT people, because I've asked many stupid, and I'm sure REPEATED questions in the forum and I've ALWAYS received warm and helpful responses.

I just bought one MC, mainly to have 7.0 of SPWAW in one place, plus to support the cause. So I'd be happy to know if I was purchaser number 2322 even if it is shy of 7000.

In regards to Combat Leader, I haven't looked or responded to ANYTHING about it simply because I don't want to be TEASED about a game that doesn't exist yet, where I'm coming from. I'm that way pretty much about ALL new games/betas/patches... I don't want to drool over screenshots, I want the GAME! So, possibly there could be others out there like me.

One more thing, if you want to boost sales, how about REMOVING the FREE downloading option of SPWAW and make a CD of it?! Heck, or just sell the LV Mega-Campaign under the umbrella of SPWAW if you already have thousands of copies in boxes. Sometimes people actually value what they put IN for something, and when they see a game is a free download, they think it's either not good enough to be in a box for sale, or not worth their time to play.

I'm assuming when you talk about your 'one success' you were talking about the Panthers series, though I may be wrong. But seriously, get rid of all of the 3+ to 4.1, 5.3 to 6.1 garbage & just sell the CD or perhaps a PAY to download option of the full 7.0.

Just a thought. Oh, and one more thing about the Matrix Games site (don't know who's in charge of that), but it's a little too presumptuous to have a bunch of tabs for genres/games that don't exist yet. What I mean is, I think it would look better to admit being a small, growing company with a few products, rather than trying to promise something you just can't deliver.

Please DO NOT take any of my thoughts offensively, as I truly am trying to help, or I would not be wasting my own time. Please keep your chin up & tell your wife that she is number one, your job is number two, and this, yes, may be a small fun project, but it also happens to mean a lot to a lot of people.

Sincerely,

campekenobi
'sniper-4-hire'

(in reply to KG Erwin)
Post #: 8
I for one like the site - 3/21/2002 2:04:06 AM   
rlc27

 

Posts: 306
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From: Connecticut, USA
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I for one like the matrix site the way it is; it is one of only two or three sites that I visit daily when I've got time, as a way to unwind and read about armor penetration values after a long day :D There is simply no other wargame site I've found (except for CM, which I don't like) that is as active as this one.

Must also second the notion that this community has been quite friendly from the start. I'm no master of SP, but nearly every question I've ever asked has been answered promptly, in most cases by Paul and Wild Bill! There is simply no other game company that puts you that closely in touch with the designers!

I for one have bought all of the megacampaigns; I've only gotten about a quarter of the way (I think) through MCNA and haven't even started the others, but I'll be playing this game for a long, long time. The encyclopedia alone, for me, is worth much of the price of admission. But the detail in the MC's is tremendous; at times I couldn't wait to get to the next mission just to read all of the supporting documentation.

And now for my two cents: if the MC's sales are low, why not wait a bit more, and then pull a combination move worthy of Talonsoft, combining several of them into one package, with a bit higher price tag, say 39.95? Perhaps too people would be willing to pay, say, $15 for a CD of JUST SPWAW v. 7.1--especially those who do not want to tie up their phone lines for 24 hours in order to download the whole package?

Finally, has anyone considered the "soul winning" approach to wargames? I think the problem with lack of new interest is a direct result of the relative lack of flashines and whizz-bang in wargames; hard to attract people who play games like Ghost Recon, Quake, etc., when graphics are considered the sine qua non of gaming nowadays. But since I've been posting to this board I've noticed a small but constant trickle of potential converts who post questions; usually in the body of the message is a reference to a popular game, like Sudden Strike or Command and Conquer. Those 'on the fence' folks who are just discovering the limits of FSP and RTS ganes might well be potential wargaming converts, with just the right amount of encouragement.

One last thing: MANUALS! I know that printed manuals are not in vogue right now, due to production and publication costs, etc, and the myth that no one reads them. But aren't wargamers generally compulsive about reading manuals? NOTHING sparked my yearling's interest in wargames back in
the 80's and early 90's like a good, well written and personality ridden manual, that can be kept on the desk, by the bedside, in the bathroom (honey, you've been in there for an hour!). I went all out and printed up the SPWAW manual on a university computer, but not everyone has access to free printing, and then you have to go have it bound at Staples. I for one would be willing to pay an extra five or ten bucks for a nice, thick, glossy, SSI-type of printed manual, the kind that you can compulsively read for hours--hmm, what is the frontal armor slope and production history of a Panther A, for the hundreth time? Aren't nice juicy manuals one of the things that attracted people to pencil and paper wargames during the 60's, 70's, and 80's? Filled with formulas and historical asides? I has taken me far longer to learn this wonderful game without such a reference handy, and longer learning curves=loss of interest, at least for the general public.

OK, sorry all this has turned into a rant. I'll be quiet now.

:o :D

_____________________________

"They couldn't hit an elephant from this dist--"

--John Sedgwick, failing to reduce suppression during the Battle of the Wilderness, U.S. Civil War.

(in reply to KG Erwin)
Post #: 9
Re: I for one like the site - 3/21/2002 2:20:17 AM   
campekenobi

 

Posts: 93
Joined: 1/10/2002
From: Maryland
Status: offline
[QUOTE]Originally posted by rlc27
[B]

One last thing: MANUALS! I know that printed manuals are not in vogue right now, due to production and publication costs, etc, and the myth that no one reads them. But aren't wargamers generally compulsive about reading manuals? NOTHING sparked my yearling's interest in wargames back in
the 80's and early 90's like a good, well written and personality ridden manual, that can be kept on the desk...
:o :D [/B][/QUOTE]

I couldn't agree with you MORE my friend. And I, too, used some underground sources to print that FAT MOMMA. No one likes to read newspapers or books on LCD screens yet, and this is no exception. You can't really 'browse' through an Acrobat file as you would a REAL thing, it's just not the SAME! I've discovered many jems just leafing through, yes, even in the bathroom! Great points, and I'm sure others feel the same way.

And in regards to the 'flashy' games out there. Hey, I'm 32, but I'm still into that stuff as well, I play DAY OF DEFEAT, a Half-Life modification WWII simulator. But that gives a quick fix, this is for the DURATION! It's like going to an amusement park for a day, versus working on a plasitc model for MONTHS... I'm sure you can decide what is more rewarding in the long run.

(in reply to KG Erwin)
Post #: 10
Re: The WARM FUZZIES - 3/21/2002 2:39:59 AM   
Larry Holt

 

Posts: 1969
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From: Atlanta, GA 30068
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[QUOTE]Originally posted by campekenobi
[B]

One more thing, if you want to boost sales, how about REMOVING the FREE downloading option of SPWAW and make a CD of it?! Heck, or just sell the LV Mega-Campaign under the umbrella of SPWAW if you already have thousands of copies in boxes. Sometimes people actually value what they put IN for something, and when they see a game is a free download, they think it's either not good enough to be in a box for sale, or not worth their time to play.
[/B][/QUOTE]
They can't charge for SPWaW. The SP code license agreement that they got does not allow them to charge. They wrote their own MC code so they can charge for that.

_____________________________

Never take counsel of your fears.

(in reply to KG Erwin)
Post #: 11
- 3/21/2002 2:50:52 AM   
rlc27

 

Posts: 306
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From: Connecticut, USA
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Kenobi,

I didn't mean to say that flashy games are necessarily not as good as wargames, or that to like wargames you have to stop liking RTS or FPS. But I think that there is a progression that could take place, as you said, where one complements their amusement park going with model making. At least, that's how it was for me. Quick fixes are always fun, and nothing is as immersive as a good FPS with 3-D graphics and sound.

That's why I think Paul was correct, newbies should be nurtured, and perhaps someone might show them why wargames are so special? I think a lot of them come in here not realizing just how technically detailed and complex a game like SP is when compared with Return to Wolfenstein or something like that--which is not to say that those games are not complex, just in different ways.

Perhaps even some introductory material on computer wargames in general might be in order--or else some folks just might not "get" why you can't drive a Tiger into the woods without the resident infantry driving nails into the head of the tank commander, and after being brewed up for the 200th time they decide to go back to games they know how to play well. It's just not the way most games are nowadays. I was extremely frustrated for my first 50 games or so of SPWAW until I realized that my whole approach was wrong, figured out the key shortcuts, learned some rudimentary tactics. I still don't have it all figured out, but now at least I stand a chance, even if it is only against the AI (and if the scenario was not designed by WB!).

_____________________________

"They couldn't hit an elephant from this dist--"

--John Sedgwick, failing to reduce suppression during the Battle of the Wilderness, U.S. Civil War.

(in reply to KG Erwin)
Post #: 12
- 3/21/2002 3:03:24 AM   
scimitar

 

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From: Belgium
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In a few words, Paul: You take a great job. You have my support. For what concern Combat Leader, I must say I'm checking the threads regularly but I don't participate frequently. I understand that for you I'm not in the good way and that any comment I can give, any new thread I can create can be helpful for you. I will try to be more "constructive" from now...

(in reply to KG Erwin)
Post #: 13
- 3/21/2002 3:10:48 AM   
rich12545

 

Posts: 1705
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From: Palouse, WA
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My two cents.
First, I bought all three megas even though I never play campaigns and will almost certainly not play these. I typically play single battles only, usually random setups. It is the only way to support the spwaw effort. I appreciate what matrix has done here and it's a shame they made only half their goal.

I believe a major reason wargame sales have gone down is because they are timeless. I have about 50 games with thousands and thousands of scenarios. I plan to buy the harpoon97 and tacops updates this year and that's it. Sorry I won't be buying CL. With what I have now I could live to be 200 and not play everything I currently have. There are many gamers in my position. Why shell out $40-50 when we already have more than enough now.

(in reply to KG Erwin)
Post #: 14
- 3/21/2002 3:25:31 AM   
FNG


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[QUOTE]Originally posted by rlc27
[B]Kenobi,

Perhaps even some introductory material on computer wargames in general might be in order--or else some folks just might not "get" why you can't drive a Tiger into the woods without the resident infantry driving nails into the head of the tank commander, and after being brewed up for the 200th time they decide to go back to games they know how to play well. It's just not the way most games are nowadays. [/B][/QUOTE]

I think that this is a key issue. A large percentage of PC gamers only have shooters and movies to base their tactics on (a sure-fire recipe for disaster in SP) and have no concept of combined arms and so miss the point of tactical games of this scale. I remember getting my Panthers toasted in SP1 by SO Infantry and not understanding why. I was lucky enough to persevere, and along the way learn a lot about WW2 era tactics.

I think the wargaming community is incredibly lucky to have Matrix Games (and this is not @r$e-kissing - I still want my LV patch yesterday!) in that they have taken a superb old game and kept it alive, improved it enormously, while promoting a fantastic community along the way. It is up to us (the gamers) to promote our hobby (or religion for some) and the companies that support it if we want to see quality products like SP survive.

To everyone who reads these boards more than once, I would say this:

If you haven't already, buy something from Matrix. I coughed up for postage to the UK, and all things considered, LV still cost me under 40 quid. I have not only bought a game, but I have bought into a much wider community. If you play SP from a free download or cover disc (like I did for a long while) don't you feel you owe something to the designers and programmers who have brought it to you? If you don't, then you have no right to criticise or complain.

_____________________________

FNG
Our doubts are traitors, and make us lose the good we oft might win by fearing to attempt.

(in reply to KG Erwin)
Post #: 15
help - 3/21/2002 3:32:51 AM   
kdevere

 

Posts: 19
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From: schoharie,ny
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i downloaded steel panthers version 5 but it says i need disk two to complete instillalation what do i do

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keelan devere
Part of the original Waffen-SS formation, SS-Stabswache Berlin was formed by Oberstgruppenfüuhrer Joseph (Sepp) Dietrich as a Praetorian Guard responsible for protecting Nazi leader Adolf Hitler.

Leibstandarte SS Adolf Hitler became one

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Post #: 16
- 3/21/2002 3:39:59 AM   
11Bravo


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Hi Paul,

I stumbled upon SPWAW about a year ago and was blown away by three things: great game, great community, and great service.

Even though I have hardly any time to play games anymore, I bought all the MegaCampaigns and will buy Uncommon Valor when it is ready.

Keep up the good work, and rest assured that you will continue getting my support in the future.

:)

_____________________________

Squatting in the bush and marking it on a map.

(in reply to KG Erwin)
Post #: 17
Re: Once again, timeline for 7.1 SPWaW patch? - 3/21/2002 3:49:37 AM   
Mikimoto

 

Posts: 511
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From: Barcelona, Catalunya
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[QUOTE]Originally posted by KG Erwin
[B]You'll continue to have my support, for what it's worth, with some reservations. I'm also sure that other long-time members of the forum have some similar concerns. The only reason I'm bitching now is that Matrix is still a company on the make, and I'm sure I speak for many of us veterans in that we want to see Matrix as a "going concern" for years to come. [/B][/QUOTE]

Well, I understand KG Erwin. I agree with his point of view. For what it is worth.

_____________________________

Desperta ferro!
Miquel Guasch Aparicio

(in reply to KG Erwin)
Post #: 18
- 3/21/2002 5:39:48 AM   
Alby


Posts: 4854
Joined: 4/29/2000
From: Greenwood, Indiana
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FOR KDEVERE>>>>>

Sounds like your download did not completely finish. You may have to redownload, or better yet, purchase a Mega campaign!!
I have purchased 2, Never played either, bought them just to support matrix, My thing is online and PBEM, so do not think I am slamming the MCs. I just perfer human opponents.
:)

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Post #: 19
Re: Once again, timeline for 7.1 SPWaW patch? - 3/21/2002 5:54:07 AM   
V-man

 

Posts: 151
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From: Indiana
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[QUOTE]Originally posted by KG Erwin
[B]I already know the programmed response, Paul. It'll be ready when it's ready. This is supposed to the FINAL SpWaW, in lieu of the eventual release of Combat Leader. (This is probably a comment that belongs in the general discussion category.) I've tried my best to be a cheerleader for Matrix, but I'll admit publicly that my patience is wearing thin. You've stated the fact that Matrix has a multitude of projects going on simultaneously, and that is self-evident. While I personally disagree with your company strategy, I DO understand your rationale. You'll continue to have my support, for what it's worth, with some reservations. I'm also sure that other long-time members of the forum have some similar concerns. The only reason I'm bitching now is that Matrix is still a company on the make, and I'm sure I speak for many of us veterans in that we want to see Matrix as a "going concern" for years to come. I would also regard buyers of Matrix products as indirect investors in the company. Given the fact that so many current wargames are subject to multiple patches and upgrades, this is a legitimate concern for players of your games. I hope you, Paul, and the forum vets understand my concerns, and don't construe my comments as undue criticisms. Glenn Higginbotham. [/B][/QUOTE]

Uhm, if this is your idea of "continuing to have your support", perhaps you ought to go out and find another free wargame as complex and exciting as SP:WaW.

For the Matrix Staff:

Rah! Rah! Sis-Boom-Bah!

Go Matrix Team, GO!!!!!

YEAAHHHYYYYYY!!!!

_____________________________

"You see, in this world there's 2 kinds of people, my friend:
Those with loaded guns and those who dig. You dig."

(in reply to KG Erwin)
Post #: 20
Re: Re: Once again, timeline for 7.1 SPWaW patch? - 3/21/2002 6:03:28 AM   
Bing

 

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From: Gaylord, MI, USA
Status: offline
I have only one thing to say on this subject: In 40+ years of gaming, Matrix is far and away the best in terms of listening to its customers and actually doing something about the problems.

Keep up the good work, guys.

Bing

(in reply to KG Erwin)
Post #: 21
- 3/21/2002 6:03:48 AM   
parusski


Posts: 5167
Joined: 5/8/2000
From: Jackson Tn
Status: offline
Paul is right. No argument from anyone on this board can change that. The Matrix team clearly stated what was needed in terms of support-and that support did not matarelize. There are enough members and non-members that the goals stated in terms of sales needed should and could have been met. So Paul, do not go on the defensive, you are right in both your direction and attitude!!!!

_____________________________

"I hate newspapermen. They come into camp and pick up their camp rumors and print them as facts. I regard them as spies, which, in truth, they are. If I killed them all there would be news from Hell before breakfast."- W.T. Sherman

(in reply to KG Erwin)
Post #: 22
- 3/21/2002 6:46:16 AM   
Leto II

 

Posts: 46
Joined: 10/20/2001
From: Graz, Austria
Status: offline
When I first got into computer games, the first game that I played, (other than Doom) was the World at War series from Avalon Hill (Operation Crusader, Stalingrad, and D-Day America Invades). At the time I didn't know the designation of that genre to be one of "Wargames".

I have since played many other games, in many other genres. About a year ago, I ran into SP:WAW, downloaded it, and ever since have considered myself primarily a Wargamer.

You could say that I bought 2 of the 3 Megacampaigns then simply for that reason but that wasn't the motivating factor.

After years of dealing with various game communities and game companies, I actually found a company that I was proud to support in Matrixgames. You listen to the community and do the very best that you can primarily for the love of the game and secondarily for a paycheck. (At least that is how it seems to me)

I haven't played either of the 2 Megacampaigns, choosing instead to wait for the release of the patch so that I can play them without having to start over.

Would I like the patch to come out today? Most assuredly. But it is more important to me that companies like Matrix recieve the support that they deserve, especially since so many game companies recieve so many sales for releasing poor products, or do not care for their communities. (Blizzard games comes to mind)

The Wargaming community is very elitist. I understand this mentality, as those who play enjoy very complex games, games that years of research and historical conjecture have allowed to instill with a sense of maturity. A wargame is a more complicated game than Quake for example, or Starcraft, or practically any other mainstream game. Wargamers do not love the mass consumption market for the games made for such are watered down strategically and tactically, made so that the most amount of people can learn the game in the fastest time possible. Such dislike for popular culture results naturally in elitism, although this should never result in a superiority complex when it comes to newbies. I like to think of the matrix community as an elite body of gamers who are always willing to increase their number.

I have not demonstrated any feedback for Combat Leader, although the game is on my mind. I will most likely buy it once it is completed, if only to continue to support Matrix.

I have, in addition, done my best to encourage my RTS friends to download and play SPWAW. The most common complaint is that it is too complicated to learn. However, those that get beyond that agree that its better for its complexity. Hopefully another of my friends will be downloading it today.

My thanks to Matrixgames, who I will continue to support in the future. Always listen to the game community! And we will always demand the next patch to feed our addiction.

(in reply to KG Erwin)
Post #: 23
- 3/21/2002 8:45:06 AM   
skukko


Posts: 1928
Joined: 10/24/2000
From: Finland
Status: offline
Leto II : you said it right.

mosh

(in reply to KG Erwin)
Post #: 24
- 3/21/2002 8:58:36 AM   
KG Erwin


Posts: 8981
Joined: 7/25/2000
From: Cross Lanes WV USA
Status: offline
I'm glad some of you guys have expressed your concerns over the state of the wargaming community, and your particular concerns about Matrix and their rapidly expanding product line. I also want to thank Paul for his patience with the grumblers amongst us (we know who we are). Yes, I totally agree with Paul's frustration over the lackluster sales and the amount of man-hours spent on tweaking a product they can't even sell. I've had the SPWaW 7.1 beta on my HD for weeks now, and frankly, I'm wondering how much further development is needed or even achievable on the game engine. As for the OOBs, we all know that we can add or change just about any element in the database. However, I think it's unfair to regard ANY sort of disagreement or criticism as not being supportive of the company and its mission. If some of you recall, I tried to gather enough support to stage a SPWaW fan meeting here in West Virginia. I talked to both Dave Heath and Bill Wilder last year about coming here, and both of them (Wild Bill especially) were very supportive. Unfortunately, I didn't have but more than maybe 8 or 10 guys who would make a definite commitment about attending. I had no choice but to let the project die quietly. Given that, I fully understand Paul's predicament about many fans' unwillingness to let their money talk. I'll still waiting for TAO3/Korsun Pocket. That's a game I'm more than happy to fork over cash for, that is, whenever it sees the light of day. I DID make a comment once about the potential danger of Matrix' reach exceeding its grasp. That one still concerns me, but as the cliche goes, time will tell.

(in reply to KG Erwin)
Post #: 25
- 3/21/2002 8:58:50 AM   
Bing

 

Posts: 1366
Joined: 5/20/2000
From: Gaylord, MI, USA
Status: offline
[QUOTE]Originally posted by skukko
[B]Leto II : you said it right.

mosh [/B][/QUOTE]

I'll second that. As well said as anyone yet.

Bing

(in reply to KG Erwin)
Post #: 26
- 3/21/2002 9:36:11 AM   
skukko


Posts: 1928
Joined: 10/24/2000
From: Finland
Status: offline
"fans' unwillingness to let their money talk. "

<<<<<<<<<<<

Well, let me say my view, just this time: I have been doing Lost Victories as a team captain about a year now. My money has paid all phonebills that my job in development has created. With that amount spent I could buy hundreds of copies of games from Matrix. Little formula: 100 euros (close to 100 dollars) per month just for this game. We in Finland pay for minutes that we use phonelines... But I have loved all this and I hope it will give you folks, and to me, experience worth of every cent/penny. It is my real reward. Second reward was that I did get MC burned onto CD. Third: Some bucks yet to come. This is my level of dedication...

enough talk about it from my mouth ;)

mosh

(in reply to KG Erwin)
Post #: 27
- 3/21/2002 10:36:45 AM   
Fallschirmjager


Posts: 6778
Joined: 3/18/2002
From: Chattanooga, Tennessee
Status: offline
If you were complaing about patching the MC's you *might* have a legit complaint. But as it stands your bitching at their slowness in patching a FREE game. Im sure the makers of this delightful addiction dont make a whole lot of cash at what they do here with matrixgames especially when they make FREE games. Now if they were to post a msg on their homepage tomorrow that said as of today we officially are going to not make any more games or update the ones we have made, you still would not have a case to come on the forum and complain. They made this game because of their love for the genre, and and as a service for us.
Im going to remember that and I could care less if the patch came out in 5 minutes of 5 months.

_____________________________


(in reply to KG Erwin)
Post #: 28
- 3/21/2002 11:23:11 AM   
sg

 

Posts: 41
Joined: 7/26/2000
From: Brick, N.J.
Status: offline
Well, I've been playing wargames for as long as I can remember ....Avalon Hill board games (Tactics II, Blitzkrieg, etc) and on the PC (Empire Deluxe is still a favorite). I played and own the original SP and SP2. I read a little one line blurb in Computer Gaming Magazine a year or so ago about SPWaW and Matrix and how the game was reworked and so good and FREE. I figured, how good could it be if they're giving it away? Well I downloaded ver 4 I think, and was hooked. I was never much for forums, but I haunted this one from the start. I picked up alot just from reading the posts and responses, and the VAST majority were helpful and supportive. I can recall only a few instances where someone was ridiculed for a "stupid" question and usually someone stepped in and answered the question while putting the out of line respondant back in line. I for one really appreciate the attitude of this forums community and am more willing to post questions and replies without fearing someone ripping into me. What really flabbergasted me is that the Matrix staff is soooo helpful. Someone out there please name me another software company that takes the time to answer ALL of your questions (without having to call a toll number and sit on hold endlessly only to talk to some nimrod who can't/won't answer your question), or listens to your suggestions and works them into the next patch/update (this is your game guys, they use your ideas). Constructive criticism is a good thing, if they don't know its broken they can't fix it. They are working to fix a problem with a product they sold (the MC's) and I for one am willing to give them a very large benifit of the doubt and wait patiently for the 7.1 update and enjoy it when it is done(I bought all three MC's). I would rather wait for the patch to be GOOD and done instead of just done. As far as I'm concerned my money was well spent and will continue to be spent on Matrix's products. They've given me more attention as a consumer and user of their products than all other software companies combined. Well I've said my 2 cents, back to the jungles of MC-W.

Steve.

(in reply to KG Erwin)
Post #: 29
- 3/21/2002 1:22:36 PM   
rich12545

 

Posts: 1705
Joined: 10/31/2000
From: Palouse, WA
Status: offline
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Fallschirmjager
[B]If you were complaing about patching the MC's you *might* have a legit complaint. But as it stands your bitching at their slowness in patching a FREE game. Im sure the makers of this delightful addiction dont make a whole lot of cash at what they do here with matrixgames especially when they make FREE games. Now if they were to post a msg on their homepage tomorrow that said as of today we officially are going to not make any more games or update the ones we have made, you still would not have a case to come on the forum and complain. They made this game because of their love for the genre, and and as a service for us.
Im going to remember that and I could care less if the patch came out in 5 minutes of 5 months. [/B][/QUOTE]

FREE game. That is true for those who didn't buy any mega campaigns. Many of us did. I bought them really to pay for the game and not the mc so it's not a free game for a lot of us. That said I don't believe 7.1 is taking too long compared to other companies. And in the meantime 7.0 isn't exactly unplayable.

(in reply to KG Erwin)
Post #: 30
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