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RE: early war use of PP for allies - 4/17/2008 9:54:43 AM   
Historiker


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quote:

ORIGINAL: gladiatt


quote:

ORIGINAL: OldGuard1970

gladiatt writes:

Well, theses one i understand, but expression like "iirc" or things like that, i don't. But when i say "dark" for me, i was talking about the game system

IIRC is an abreviation for "If I recall correctly". (It means "I think I am correct, but I am not sure.")
IMO means "In my opinion".
ASAP means "As soon as possible".
CHS is a modified version of the game.
"Stock" means the game as it comes from Matrix, without modification.

Bienvenue a WITP!


Fine !!! i'm on the way to understand more post here

http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/IIRC#I
This might help you more.

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RE: early war use of PP for allies - 4/17/2008 11:58:26 AM   
gladiatt


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quote:

ORIGINAL: bradfordkay

quote:

I suspect I was just lucky, but NEI air sank Ryujo and beat up a CA in the Java Sea;


I was able to get the same result in a PBEM. The dutch airforces on Java can put up a good defense, especially if you include some of the RAF and USAAF suqadrons out of Malaya and the Philippines (as historically occurred).


Sadly, the dutch squadrons seems to be very tired...they avoid attacking a CV TF in Java Sea, and although they were good at hitting AK a few weeks ago, now they just miss everything. The FG in Manilla had been badly severed, and only a few planes are on transit toward Java, looking for base they can land on !
Rangoon is a hot spot. AVG made a good work in the first 3 weeks, but numerous loss had forced them to get back in order to rest. Now, Hurricanes are coming, and doing good job, but i think it won't be enough; Blenheim coming from Dacca try to supply the town, as no ship can get in (already 3 sinken AK tried to supply the town, in vain).
Swordfish had been evacuated on CVL hermes, and DD Thanet, badly damaged (88sys!!) is en route for Trincomalee with a chunk of HQ Malaya...Vildebeest had made a good job against AK in Khota Bahru and Johore Bahru in the first weeks of war; evacuated in Palembang, they now miss their mission, as the dutch squadrons...
But Dutch subs are GREAT !! (sorry, must be my ancestor blood speaking!), they hit, and hit, and hit AK ! Some even make it by gun in the night !!. Even if it would not stop jap invasion, it keep their navy loss nearly as high as mine ! Yooooh !
Now begginging 20 january 42....

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RE: early war use of PP for allies - 4/17/2008 4:50:15 PM   
USSAmerica


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For the first year of the war, your Dutch and British subs are one of your best weapons.  The US "S" class subs are decent as well, but with the mostly dud Mk 14 torpedoes, the rest of your US subs are really only effective in the transport and Mine laying role.

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RE: early war use of PP for allies - 4/17/2008 6:14:09 PM   
Mark VII


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Defending Rangoon in force is nomally not a good idea against a live opponent.

In my last game as the Japanese, my Allied opponent tried the same thing stripping India of most of its ground units and shipping them to Rangoon. They were never seen again! With a stock map, Rangoon is a death trap for any Allied units left there when the Japs arrive. Ed also tried to defend on the river along the border. The Japanese 80+ experience Divisions had no problem crossing the river against the 50 experience Allied units and pocketing the defending Allies. Major disaster for the Brits as most of the Indian/British Army was destroyed within 4 hexes of Rangoon.

Going into this game I had no plans to invade India but changed my mind since no one was defending there any more. It took a few months but India was captured up to karchi and the base in front of it. The surrender of so many ground units in Burma also had a major effect on the victory point levels.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ken Estes

I made a successful stand in Java vs AI in the v.1.804 stock WITP. I pulled as many LCUs to Rangoon as JA land advance allowed me, denuded rest of India to ports, shipping them to Rangoon to make the stand on the river line and city to the south of it. Rest of LCU in Malaya delayed, but were then too weak to hold Singapore very long. But holding Rangoon is a key for later, but must have air support. I kept all UK/CW air at Singapore in naval attack/escort mode until the air base damage became too bad, then withdrew LB and F to Rangoon, but took Swordfish, some Hudsons south to add to DEI air. All P.I. air withdrew to DEI, exc for a sqdrn of F left in Bataan for sacrifice defense/attrition. Exc for B17s [sent to Darwin with pol points], I conc all Allied/DEI air at Palembang, Batavia and Soerbaja, with some forward RC and LB in Borneo as long as no land attk threatened. The objective in all this is attrition of IJN transports, which are not well escorted at this stage of game. Keeping the LB in naval will increase experience fairly quickly from their initially abysmal performance, helped by the torpedo bombers (UK and Dutch), which can kill. Base units must be also concentrated to make this happen and I concentrate the LCU in the same ports, fortifying and mining with SS and the few ML [these have to pull out soon]. All warships have to leave Singapore southward and make for Batavia/Soerabaja, join ABDA Fleet and then evade initial IJN air and surface attacks, waiting for IJN/JA to commit transports to attack a vital port [again only defending Java and So Sumatra for keeps]. The PT boats [US and Dutch] are also held close for action, such as at Batavia or Palembang. I made no effort to save any Allied LCUs from the P.I.

I suspect I was just lucky, but NEI air sank Ryujo and beat up a CA in the Java Sea; The Betties from Tainan did not come south because I piled every Chinese corps [AI is timid in China] I could spare into Canton and swept all JA out of SW China, even beseiged Hanoi [forces initially from SW China, then 5 corps from Yenan - 4 more corps to Rangoon front], and AI kept the air in Formosa to hit them. The Chinese LCU gain much experuience just doing bombardments and resisting JA assaults; works if you bring enough corps together and later, with their 99 experience, they form a death star LCU.

By 18Mar42,  Singapore and Manila-Bataan fell, but Java-Sumatra remained in allied hands, with a weak JA force ashore at Palembang and one town lost in Sumatra. AI must be really confused. The PoW SAG savaged a convoy to Palembang and the Dutch/CW air operating out of Java did great attrition on IJN convoys, largely unescorted or weakly escorted. Most of Borneo was lost and two towns in Celebes, but Makassar still held against a weakened IJN naval inf unit. Amboina was lost but Timor remained in Allied hands, about to be reinforced with air base units, the most critical shortage in all the game. I think my later successes in Rangoon-Burma and successful defense of Rabaul upset AI reinf of NEI after they took the losses, and exc for a weal landing at Koepang, nothing else was lost. This made for a huge difference in JA resources, because eventually the Java air bases dominated JA resource bases in Borneo/Celebes, with good attrition of IJN AK/AP and forays by KB did nothign to redress as I made the attacked base inactive and no accompanying phib assault came exc a weak one at Kopaeng. 
 
I doubt this works in PBEM, but it is a modified Sir Robin leading to conc in Java and So Sumatra.



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RE: early war use of PP for allies - 4/17/2008 6:17:01 PM   
rtrapasso


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quote:

Defending Rangoon in force is nomally not a good idea against a live opponent.


Depends on the mod - it is suicidal in stock, but the map is different in CHS/Big B/RHS which allows for a defensive effort.

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Post #: 35
RE: early war use of PP for allies - 4/17/2008 6:41:12 PM   
Mark VII


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With one of those mods, when the Japanese defeat the effort, are the Brits/Indians retreating to India in some order or are they trapped and soon to die?


quote:

ORIGINAL: rtrapasso

quote:

Defending Rangoon in force is nomally not a good idea against a live opponent.


Depends on the mod - it is suicidal in stock, but the map is different in CHS/Big B/RHS which allows for a defensive effort.



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Post #: 36
RE: early war use of PP for allies - 4/17/2008 6:52:16 PM   
rtrapasso


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mark VII


quote:

ORIGINAL: rtrapasso

quote:

Defending Rangoon in force is nomally not a good idea against a live opponent.


Depends on the mod - it is suicidal in stock, but the map is different in CHS/Big B/RHS which allows for a defensive effort.

With one of those mods, when the Japanese defeat the effort, are the Brits/Indians retreating to India in some order or are they trapped and soon to die?

Depends on how able the attacker is, and how able the defender is... and some luck... done right, i think the Allies could retreat to India.

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RE: early war use of PP for allies - 4/17/2008 6:55:31 PM   
Dino


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Done right, I think the Allies don't have to retreat at all.



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RE: early war use of PP for allies - 4/17/2008 11:19:28 PM   
gladiatt


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quote:

ORIGINAL: USS America

For the first year of the war, your Dutch and British subs are one of your best weapons. The US "S" class subs are decent as well, but with the mostly dud Mk 14 torpedoes, the rest of your US subs are really only effective in the transport and Mine laying role.


I use the US subs as "watch" in the pacific, as there is only Pearl as level 10 port (for mine laying).
There is only two brits subs in Ceylan, and they are laying much mines in Malacca strait (already 4 AK took a mine).
I've got problems guessing where the AK TF of the japs (AI) are going (move very upsetting !), and my dutch subs are rarely at the good places ...but nether the less, from time to time, a "big fish" guet in a AK; i should provide much awards ! there's a list of Top Pilots, but i would have like to see the same for ships or subs, as i think one dutch (KXV) is responsible of nearly 7AK and a PG sink.

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Post #: 39
RE: early war use of PP for allies - 4/17/2008 11:26:26 PM   
gladiatt


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mark VII

Defending Rangoon in force is nomally not a good idea against a live opponent.

In my last game as the Japanese, my Allied opponent tried the same thing stripping India of most of its ground units and shipping them to Rangoon. They were never seen again! With a stock map, Rangoon is a death trap for any Allied units left there when the Japs arrive. Ed also tried to defend on the river along the border. The Japanese 80+ experience Divisions had no problem crossing the river against the 50 experience Allied units and pocketing the defending Allies. Major disaster for the Brits as most of the Indian/British Army was destroyed within 4 hexes of Rangoon.

Glups, too late, Rngoon fell on january 25 ( 8 march in history), three indian brigades and few supports units try to retrat threw jungle and Irrawady river. But japs (AI, it's my first game) are already on a more direct route toward Akyab and Imphal....i fear the renforts come too late for these places, and my Blenheims in Dacca don't bomb the japs ground units... Last stand will be on the Bhramaputre !! And after this line, well, i suppose if India fall, the japs will have enough victory points in 1943 to gain a automatic victory.
Well, it's not yet, i should keep fighting , and i keep saying :WHAT A GREAT GAME !!!!!!

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RE: early war use of PP for allies - 4/17/2008 11:27:31 PM   
gladiatt


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Dino

Done right, I think the Allies don't have to retreat at all.




Yeaaah they have choice to die on place !

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RE: early war use of PP for allies - 4/18/2008 12:26:17 AM   
kfmiller41


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Not on a CHS map they don't I am playing Japan in my PBEM game and got to agressive in burma now I have 30000 men trapped in Rangoon (they couldnt storm the city) as units snuck in down the major road behind them thats not on the stock map. Needless to say unless I get help to them quick they are toast.

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RE: early war use of PP for allies - 4/18/2008 12:29:08 AM   
rtrapasso


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quote:

ORIGINAL: miller41

Not on a CHS map they don't I am playing Japan in my PBEM game and got to agressive in burma now I have 30000 men trapped in Rangoon (they couldnt storm the city) as units snuck in down the major road behind them thats not on the stock map. Needless to say unless I get help to them quick they are toast.






Mmmm... toast...

Attachment (1)

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RE: early war use of PP for allies - 4/18/2008 12:30:20 AM   
kfmiller41


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Thats them in a nutshell

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RE: early war use of PP for allies - 4/18/2008 8:38:19 AM   
bradfordkay

 

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I had the commonwealth brigades on the Salween River crossing on the CHS map and they managed to throw back Chez' first attempt to cross. I hadn't believed in their ability to hold the river line so I had already evacuated Rangoon. Chez then dropped paratroops on Rangoon (I should have left something!) and so I had to withdraw anyway - as I expected to have to do in the first place.

I do still hold Mandalay and Lashio (April '43), so it hasn't been all bad. However, that's partly due to a lack of interest in the area on his part. He's having too much fun controlling the northern coast of Australia...

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RE: early war use of PP for allies - 4/18/2008 10:59:15 PM   
Ken Estes

 

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I found AI surprisingly aggressive vs. Rangoon while I held the river line until the Chinese corps could come over from No. Burma and settle the odds. Fortunately the Rangoon Garrison unit is fairly fit and it held the first time the surprise happened [edit: by sea!] and I never left it unreinforced after that. AI tried at least 4 times, sending a tank regt last 2 [??]. I found the LB air - scoured from all India and refitted from Singapore - highly effective in damaging the JA divisions that came up, blunting their assaults until they fell back. It was tricky though, alternating between hitting the troopships and supply ships coming up from Malaya and hitting the local ground threats. Later AI brought up both army and IJN air and really fleeced my Hurricane and Buffalo squadrons at Rangoon, most down to 2-3 planes, but my counterbombing of AF [again when not hitting ground and sea threats] finally wore them down.

What AI could not deal with however, was my offensive vs. Hanoi, reinf by half the LCU from Yenan, eventually sweeping all Indochina [I also pulled 3-4 corps from Canton seige duty after the latter had enough experience to hold] and cutting off the JA in Burma before rein came up the Kra to help. The JA divisoon in Hanoi went east to assist in SW China, was thus cut off, leaving VN divs garrisoning the Indochinese cities.

More tweaking the tail of AI came when in No China/Manchuria the Hopei Militia Div managed to infiltrate into Manchuria, taking four cities, the last Darien and Pyongyang; that’s two industrial cities. They become USSR cities when taken, so maybe AI can’t attack them, as they made not a single move.

< Message edited by Ken Estes -- 4/18/2008 11:00:52 PM >

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RE: early war use of PP for allies - 4/19/2008 12:08:16 AM   
heenanc

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: rtrapasso

quote:

ORIGINAL: miller41

Not on a CHS map they don't I am playing Japan in my PBEM game and got to agressive in burma now I have 30000 men trapped in Rangoon (they couldnt storm the city) as units snuck in down the major road behind them thats not on the stock map. Needless to say unless I get help to them quick they are toast.






Mmmm... toast...




Could do with a bit of butter and maybe some jam... but Mmmm toast...

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RE: early war use of PP for allies - 4/19/2008 1:36:25 AM   
engineer

 

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AI vs. PBEM is a big difference.  Game 1, a few weeks of the campaign to get up to speed on the differences vs. WPO (mostly weapons instead of engine).  Started Game 2 in earnest.  The AI stalled at Mandalay (that turned into a green Stalingrad for the AI Japanese).  It took me until early September to kill the Japanese at Mandalay (Rangoon fell in July to a flanking movement), but in October and November the Brits have blitzed to Saigon and to the gates of Singapore. There wasn't a strong enough reserve once the front tier divisions were trapped and wiped out at Mandalay. SEAsia long-range LBA are scourging the South China Sea from Bien Hoa and Phomn Phen.  The Yunan divisions are massing at the DMZ and will re-enter China via Hanoi and Haiphong.  What's more, the fighting at Mandalay has their experience into the 90's - likewise for a lot of the Commonwealth units (2nd Infantry, 18th Infantry, and 7th Armored are all 98 experience).

However, I know a human could have cleaned me out of the DEI and the Philippines a lot more quickly and organized a relief of Mandalay so I might well have been thrown at least as far back as the historical line in Assam.  In PBEM the early Allied game has to be reactive because the Kido Butai and the Zero bonus give the Japanese an overwhelming, if fleeting, advantage.  Human vs. AI you can conduct local raids almost from the outset of the game, and genuine long-term offensives by the summer of 1942, but I would probably delay that by about six months against an experienced human opponent. 

< Message edited by engineer -- 4/19/2008 1:39:25 AM >

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RE: early war use of PP for allies - 4/19/2008 3:33:55 AM   
sventhebold


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Hey Engineer What mod are you using for this? I am playing Scen 157 CHS 208 Nik Mod It's 3-16-42
as the Allies I've sunk 251 of the Jap AI to my 194 including the Kaga Soryu and Ryujo and beat up the rest of the KB pretty badly only lost Enterprise and Formidable. I've got the Jap army boxed up in PI in Baguio and are beating them pretty well. They have landed twice at Legapasi and i have wiped them out both times. They landed at Kuching and  Davao both I wiped them out there too. They approached Rangoon but I was waiting for them with everything I could scrape togetherand now i have pushed them back through Molemein and Tavoy and am outside Bangkok resuppling. I've got the Malaya Jap thrust bottled up in 23,47 and Johore Bahru and are holding them.
Meanwhile since i still hold Kuanatan I am blasting every convoy that enters the gulf and have my subs strung out from Khota Bahru to Formosa and even with bad torps i still am picking them off fairly often. Is this normal? I even have it set on hard not historical......


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RE: early war use of PP for allies - 4/21/2008 6:42:45 PM   
engineer

 

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My experience was with a lightly modded stock campaign (I added P-80's, Bearcats, several very late carriers and cruisers for the USN and the AGC modded Treasury-class cutters, and upgraded the anchorage at Lahaina) so for 1942 it's stock for all intents and purposes. 

Right there you have a big difference in the how the map and air combat will play out.  You do seem to be having a lot of success.  Here's how my campaign played out. 

Malaya:  The Japanese air power in Indochina forced me to be very careful in handling Force Z.  The campaign there went pretty well with the surface forces and air power sinking 200+ ships through the full siege of Singapore before the Japs moved their air power onto Malaya in full force.  However, once Japanese troops got ashore, between the poor readiness of the Malayan Army and the no-prep rule that the Japanese have until March, I couldn't find a combination to hold the ports on the east shore.  Once the ports fall and the air power comes across, then Malacca Strait is closed to surface traffic and surface traffic into Singapore becomes tenuous.  Singapore held out until early May.  Then the bulk of the victorious Japanese army marched to Mandalay and their doom. 

DEI:  The AI landed at Menardo three times.  The first two were rolled back, but there was too much air power the last time to risk the Asiatic Fleet for the bombardment runs.   It took until late 1942 for the Japanese to reach their high-tide mark in this front, and even then, the Allies held onto most of Timor, the Sumatran side of the Sunda Strait, and the Darwin Pale (the small islands within easy range of the port.  The first invasion of Palembang was turned back with surface sorties from Batavia and even a carrier raid by the British, but Palembang is too important for the Japanese for even the AI to give up.  The KB did two sorties through the Java Sea and sank anything that stuck it's nose out of port, and lost the Soryu for its trouble when I set up a sub trap of Dutch and S-boats. 

Philippines:  I almost sank the Ryujo when my B-17's got lucky with some mid-altitude ~8000 feet raids.  But Mindanao fell quickly. I forted up in Manila and managed to get about 20,000 to 30,000 points of supply into Luzon before the Japanese air power locked down a blockade.  At that point, the AI left the middle islands alone and seiged Manila.  The city eventually fell in September after imposing heavy losses.  With that much time, I pulled out all but one of the aviation base forces, three Scout regiments that had been worn down to cadres, and the 81st PA division from Cebu.  Once Manila fell, the Japanese wrapped up the rest of the archipelago in about six weeks. 

KB:  There was too much LBA for me to hunt for the KB in the DEI, but with solid contact, small raiding TF's of US carriers nibbled at the Central Pacific and boosted their air group experience levels.  I forted up PM with lots of divisions and 400+ planes.  In June the KB attacked and shot down a lot of planes to no real end.  They also brought in a "junior" KB with a torpedo damaged Shokaku (an S-boat hit from the DEI sorties) and CVL's.  The LBA at PM didn't dent the first string, but sank the "junior" KB.  My "Midway" was at Kirawani in August. I had already decided try to entice a battle on a field where my concentrated carriers (all in separate TF's) would be operating under lots of friendly LBA.  My earlier landing at Lunga didn't provoke a reaction so I decided to make a direct threat to Rabaul.  I was moving a division in to hold and develop that base within B-25 range of Rabaul so I could eventually shut down Rabaul.  I had all my June refits complete on the US carriers plus a British CV and CVL so when the fight played out, I had 7 CV's and a CVL + about 500 LBA between PM, Gili Gili, and Buna against 5 CVs + about 100 LBA and a CV in Rabaul.  When the smoke cleared all six Japanese CV's were on the bottom and the Japanese strikes landed on the British carrier group.  She survived damage what would have sunk any of my US carriers, and the pursuit snapped up the carrier in Rabaul.     

With the destruction of the KB in August I was toying with a relief expedition to Manila, but things wrapped up there too quickly to continue to tempt me.   My guess it would have ended in a debacle (a TF slipping out of the defensive globe and being devoured by Betty's) and then some nasty night surface actions with US cruisers and destroyers versus Japanese CA's and battlewagons.  The globe attrits and then loses critical mass somewhere around Cebu or Palawan, ugggh!)

< Message edited by engineer -- 4/21/2008 6:43:16 PM >

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Post #: 50
RE: early war use of PP for allies - 4/21/2008 7:23:18 PM   
John Lansford

 

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"For the first year of the war, your Dutch and British subs are one of your best weapons.  The US "S" class subs are decent as well, but with the mostly dud Mk 14 torpedoes, the rest of your US subs are really only effective in the transport and Mine laying role."

I thought the S class subs used the older Mk10 torpedo than the Mk14, and since it hadn't been "upgraded" it was still effective.

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Post #: 51
RE: early war use of PP for allies - 4/21/2008 7:28:22 PM   
USSAmerica


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quote:

ORIGINAL: John Lansford

"For the first year of the war, your Dutch and British subs are one of your best weapons.  The US "S" class subs are decent as well, but with the mostly dud Mk 14 torpedoes, the rest of your US subs are really only effective in the transport and Mine laying role."

I thought the S class subs used the older Mk10 torpedo than the Mk14, and since it hadn't been "upgraded" it was still effective.


John, that is correct. I guess I should have worded my statement better.

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RE: early war use of PP for allies - 4/22/2008 12:13:47 PM   
gladiatt


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quote:

ORIGINAL: bradfordkay

quote:

I suspect I was just lucky, but NEI air sank Ryujo and beat up a CA in the Java Sea;


I was able to get the same result in a PBEM. The dutch airforces on Java can put up a good defense, especially if you include some of the RAF and USAAF suqadrons out of Malaya and the Philippines (as historically occurred).


Still beginner, but air forces in Java can hurt a lot the japs AI.....Hudson had made so great works (30 AK sunk, and even a bomb on CVL Ryujo, but not much damaged seen on this occasion). But can't see how to reinforce (i mean, by sub seem ....long and fastidious), as KB shows as soon as a surface TF come from india or australia... Seems my dutch fellows of ABDA are going to die isolated and abbandonned....i'm not proud of it, but can't figure out what to do for the moment.

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Post #: 53
RE: early war use of PP for allies - 4/22/2008 9:42:19 PM   
bradfordkay

 

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Joined: 3/24/2002
From: Olympia, WA
Status: offline
There isn't much you can do as long as the KB is operating in those waters. I like to send resupply TFs into the Indian Ocean southwest of Java so that I can rush them in when the KB retires for resupply. It's about the only way to get any supplies in, unless you care to combine the RN and USN CVs to try to take on the KB (not something I recommend at this point of the war).

_____________________________

fair winds,
Brad

(in reply to gladiatt)
Post #: 54
RE: early war use of PP for allies - 4/23/2008 10:29:08 AM   
gladiatt


Posts: 2576
Joined: 4/10/2008
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: bradfordkay

There isn't much you can do as long as the KB is operating in those waters. I like to send resupply TFs into the Indian Ocean southwest of Java so that I can rush them in when the KB retires for resupply. It's about the only way to get any supplies in, unless you care to combine the RN and USN CVs to try to take on the KB (not something I recommend at this point of the war).


Advice is good, but AI is strong at "guessing" or spotting my moves. ABDA fleet should not get anymore in java sea because CL Java and CA Houston already each receive a bomb from a betty (and i'me glad it wasn't torpedoes), even when south of Java Island...sound terrible, but i realy think it's nearly the end of DEI; i think AI as guet bored of my resistence (it's mid march 42, Batavia, Soerebaya still holding), there are 5 CV in the surrounding area (raids of 80 kates and vals, escorted by 56 Zeros, no match for my poor Brewster and Hawk, pilots are tired and with no much morale, but i can't imagine to put them in hollidays....i'll tried to send a Hurricane Sqdrn by ship to relieve them a bit and make attrition on KB planes).

(in reply to bradfordkay)
Post #: 55
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