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Capturing transports - 4/8/2008 5:29:09 AM   
Ralegh


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Current behaviour:
- if as a result of a battle in a sea area all combat vessels are lost, then any transports on that side are captured.
- if as a result of a port raid all combat vessels are lost, transports are NOT captured.
- transports ARE captured if they are the only thing in the port when a port raid occurs.

BUG. Desired behaviour: If in a port raid all combat vessels on one side are lost, any transports in the port should be automatically captured.


-----
As a seperate issue, many players think this is unhistorical. I agree. Perhaps one day in the distant future we can implement the EIH rule whereby only a portion are captured, and then the captured vessels have a chance to not make it to nearest friendly port - etc etc. This would be one for the wish list, I think.

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RE: Capturing transports - 4/11/2008 12:12:53 AM   
Marshall Ellis


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Steve:

I thought we all decided that going into port and capturing xports after a port raid was not the preferred method?



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RE: Capturing transports - 4/11/2008 5:44:34 AM   
gwheelock

 

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My suggestion is that surviving (after taking losses from harbor guns) raiders
can each KILL (not capture) 1 transport.

This should more closely represent the time constraints that the raiders would
be working under (ie. get their shot off & then get the h*** out of there before
the harbor batteries get another shot in)

(This assumes a GARRISONED port.  If there is no garrison; then yes they should
be able to capture the entire transport fleet)

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RE: Capturing transports - 4/11/2008 12:01:23 PM   
bresh

 

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Yeah, I dont see how some ships can sail out of habor dragging a anchored transport fleet along.


Regards
Bresh

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RE: Capturing transports - 4/12/2008 12:04:37 AM   
Jimmer

 

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Some variant of gwheelock's idea might fit the bill, too (numbers are merely for illustration). Items happen in this order:

Kill 1 transport per 5 heavy ships present
Capture 1 additional transport for the third group of 5 ships
Repeat until all ships accounted for

So, with every 15 heavies attacking, 3 transports would be killed and one captured (the capture only happening if there were four transports to start with).

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RE: Capturing transports - 4/12/2008 10:26:01 AM   
bresh

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Jimmer

Some variant of gwheelock's idea might fit the bill, too (numbers are merely for illustration). Items happen in this order:

Kill 1 transport per 5 heavy ships present
Capture 1 additional transport for the third group of 5 ships
Repeat until all ships accounted for

So, with every 15 heavies attacking, 3 transports would be killed and one captured (the capture only happening if there were four transports to start with).


How can you explain transports beeing towed away from a garrisoned habor, note a habor with canons, this is not logical. You sink the ships, you cant capture transports while they are at the docks and anchored, and secured.

At sea, transports got captured, I fail to remember any incident where this happend while inside a city.


Regards
Bresh

< Message edited by bresh -- 4/12/2008 12:12:40 PM >

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RE: Capturing transports - 4/12/2008 6:49:49 PM   
Jimmer

 

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Ones that were prepping for a voyage. That's one reason why it would be fewer than the ones just sunk.

You also need to remember that even the cannons firing from shore are made generic in this game (like everything else in naval). They get only one "shot" in the game, but that represents the number of kills they inflict over the course of the entire battle (which could last many hours). Those dead ships could have been attempting to make captures at the end of regular combat. Remember that they managed to sink EVERY defending ship. That would have required quite a bit of maneuvering to accomplish.

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RE: Capturing transports - 4/15/2008 4:43:27 PM   
Marshall Ellis


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I think the testers mentioned to me that it was not very realistic to think that these raiders could go into a port and snag these fleets while troops and cannons were there. I tend to agree with this. Is there any historical precedent here that someone knows about that would indicate otherwise?


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RE: Capturing transports - 4/15/2008 7:33:15 PM   
Jimmer

 

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Only nighttime pirate raids, and none of those "officially" ever happened (nations just "lost" ships ... somehow).


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RE: Capturing transports - 4/15/2008 7:34:31 PM   
Jimmer

 

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But, I could certainly go with "they can't be captured, but they CAN be killed". I'm not really emotionally tied to any of these. Transports are pretty worthless, except to GB.

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RE: Capturing transports - 4/16/2008 1:25:12 PM   
Marshall Ellis


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Understood. I actually like the idea of transports being available to some of the MPs that don't have the large navies. It gives some unlikely MPs a chance to make some interesting amphib moves. I actually thought they were less valuable to GB because of all the Heavies she has BUT very important to a smaller MP such as Turkey.



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RE: Capturing transports - 4/16/2008 1:52:01 PM   
bresh

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Marshall Ellis

Understood. I actually like the idea of transports being available to some of the MPs that don't have the large navies. It gives some unlikely MPs a chance to make some interesting amphib moves. I actually thought they were less valuable to GB because of all the Heavies she has BUT very important to a smaller MP such as Turkey.




Transports, fullfills some role, giving the "major" fleets more options.
I do enjoy them as Turkey.

Though their moveallowence doesnt give them many uses.

Regards
Bresh

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RE: Capturing transports - 4/16/2008 5:15:15 PM   
Jimmer

 

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Actually, Marshall, the reason for my comment about transports is their movement. The only power that has "real" targets within range three with any regularity is GB. Austria could count Romagna and Naples in such a way, too, but they can just as easily walk there. Paying $1 per econ phase for the rest of the game pretty much precludes Austria (or Prussia) from using them.

They CAN fulfill some minor roles for Turkey or Russia can use them in the Black Sea. But with the Dardenelles not closed off to enemies, that gets a little dicey.

I think giving them movement 4 and/or the possibility of acting as an automatic depot for troops actually in that sea zone would be useful. In other words, don't require the troops to land if there are transports present, and don't make the transports have to have a depot to supply them (but, they still need to pay for supply, just not the depot). I would not have this "free depot" allow invasion supply, although I wouldn't object to it, either.

Regarding moving 4 spaces, if the above idea about transports being allowed to keep troops on board is adopted, then the movement of four could be allowed, but only when they start at sea (they have a "running start", more or less).

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RE: Capturing transports - 4/17/2008 2:18:29 PM   
Marshall Ellis


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Jimmer:

OK, I see now. The transport capacity benefit is mostly negated by its lack of movement ability. Good point on that! I think we're using the EiH movement factors. Do you know why the MA was "3" on the transports? Would changing that change the balance? Just curious...

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RE: Capturing transports - 4/17/2008 3:13:01 PM   
Ashtar

 

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Marshall, just my two cents:

1.
Before worrying about transports there are a lot of much more critical enhancements to be answered to improve the
game, like - to cite a few - loaning units WITH leaders, loaning ships, awarding political points (pp) for loaned
units involved into battles, halving the pp gained/lost in naval battles, giving Constantinople control
over the Dardanelles, reintroducing the Kingdom of Italy, allowing single defending corps to ask for
reinforcement from nearby troops (now AI runs them and does not), fix corps landing from blockaded boxes.
These are all extensively tested EIA features and their lack significantly unbalance present gameplay.

2.
About transport movement allowance and game balance.
Original EIA had some optional rule to limit fleet movements in large stacks and/or transporting troops.
Anyhow this limit could not reduce movement below 4, so increasing transport movement to 4 could be reasonable.
On the other hand, it could be a very good idea to to reduce the movement allowance of heavy and light fleets transporting corps to 5 or 6.
On reverse, higher movement rates for transport or other strangeness could seriously unbalance the game.
In particular:

quote:


(...) the possibility [for transports] of acting as an automatic depot for troops actually in that sea zone would be useful. In other words, don't require the troops to land if there are transports present, and don't make the transports have to have a depot to supply them (...)


is absolutely foolish.

Presently, the only way to transport troops over long sea distance is to have some intermediate place where to land them. This gives great strategic importance (as it was historically) to places like Malta, Corfu, Gibraltar...
Spoil Malta and Gibraltar from GB and you would have cut its access to Mediterranean. Change the rules as Jimmer suggested and GB will not care at all about those strategic possessions. Let corps stay at sea for more then one phase, and you will see huge armies waiting months at sea the right moment to land on enemy soil.
More generally, the smallest is the "sea range" over which you can transport troops, the more important are strategic considerations. The longer gets the sea range, the more minors importance is solely determined by their money/manpower contribution.
If Turkey wants to project in the entire Mediterranean, for instance, it has probably to conquer either Sicily or Tunisia. Spain and GB, knowing that, will oppose this policy. Spain too needs the south of Italy to project east. Give Turkey the ability to project everywhere and it will invariably open his game in Jen 1805 by declaring war to Egypt, Tunisia and Algeria at once. Maybe to Tripolitania too.
Moreover, even if GB has a huge fleet, it will keep it invariably busy blockading French ships and guarding the channel from a Spanish betrayal. So you are left with your transport fleets and your Malta and Gibraltar bases to bully around on the African coast...
Finally, remember that this is Napoleonic era and not WWII. Amphib operations were extremely difficult to realize, and I strongly suspect that even present rule make them too easy to plan/realize.

In conclusion, my advice: do not increase transports movements above 4, DO NOT let corps stay at sea for more then one month and seriously consider reducing other fleets movement with corps onboard to 5 or 6 (maybe 6 if <= 5 factors onboard and 5 if more then that).

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RE: Capturing transports - 4/17/2008 3:33:30 PM   
Marshall Ellis


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Ashtar:

Appreciate the 2 cents! Make no mistake that this transport discussion is for action at a much later date!
I'm battling evil in other dimensions right now (Some of which you stated).



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RE: Capturing transports - 4/17/2008 6:10:14 PM   
Jimmer

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Marshall Ellis

Jimmer:

OK, I see now. The transport capacity benefit is mostly negated by its lack of movement ability. Good point on that! I think we're using the EiH movement factors. Do you know why the MA was "3" on the transports? Would changing that change the balance? Just curious...

It would indeed change balance, but I don't know by how much (I never played EiH).

If you took a poll, though, I think most people would say they are pretty close to useless as they stand. Once the Dardenelles stuff is cleared up, Turkey could find big uses for them (as they are). Russia, if she has the guts/insanity to place them in the Black Sea at the beginning of the game, could find them useful there, too. But, she might be giving up Sweden to do it.

Austria and Prussia are pretty close to insane if they spend any money more than one factor on them. GB, France, and Spain find them mildly usefull, with GB the most (due to close interaction with a near-constant enemy) and France the least (because they're always stuck in port).

Changing movement to 4 would make them much more useful, but still not "great". The reason I suggested a hybrid approach is simply to prevent the change from being too large. I would take a poll before implementing, though, and there easily could be things I didn't think of.

Allowing them to supply the local sea zone's troops for free could prove useful. This would require the corollary rule change that troops can be left on board ships in general or transports, without dying. And, I don't think it would unbalance things to much (they're still quite vulnerable). Combining this with the hybrid movement change (speed 4 only if they started at sea) may be unbalancing, but it certainly might get people to think about actually using them, too (especially GB).

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RE: Capturing transports - 4/17/2008 6:34:41 PM   
bresh

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Jimmer

Allowing them to supply the local sea zone's troops for free could prove useful. This would require the corollary rule change that troops can be left on board ships in general or transports, without dying. And, I don't think it would unbalance things to much (they're still quite vulnerable). Combining this with the hybrid movement change (speed 4 only if they started at sea) may be unbalancing, but it certainly might get people to think about actually using them, too (especially GB).



I do belive allowing Corps stay on fleets is not very EIA.
EIA 6.2.5.2
I wouldnt strongly hope this would not happen.

Allowing 4-5 move, might do it.



Regards
Bresh


< Message edited by bresh -- 4/17/2008 6:37:20 PM >

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RE: Capturing transports - 4/17/2008 6:38:33 PM   
Ashtar

 

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A big NO NO!!!

quote:


It would indeed change balance, but I don't know by how much (I never played EiH). (..)

Allowing them to supply the local sea zone's troops for free could prove useful. This would require the corollary rule change that troops can be left on board ships in general or transports, without dying. And, I don't think it would unbalance things to much (...)


Jimmer, as I wrote three posts ago, this would change things A LOT. Do you see those little minors with 0$ 0 manpower
so utterly important to GB (Gibraltar and Malta)? They are important since without them GB cannot operate reasonably
in the Mediterranean sea. Implement your rule and they will be useless.
And the fine complex strategies major powers currently need to project their military power far away will disappear
thanks to your "near teleport" rule. This is Napoleonic era, not WWII

quote:


If you took a poll, though, I think most people would say they are pretty close to useless as they stand.

They are not. They can be used to invasion supply your troops ashore without diverting your heavy ships from more important tasks, and they can transport a lot of your troops at a reasonable distance (like from Adalia to Tripoli if you are the Turk) and then from Tripoli to Tunisi and Algeri to seal the Ottoman Empire in only 6 months if you are the Turk). Spain can go to Africa and (from Maiorca) to Italy... Sure, Prussia cannot use them to invade the Papacy
and Austria cannot enjoy Portugal sweet wine, but I hope you will agree with me this would be foolish.

quote:


Changing movement to 4 would make them much more useful, but still not "great"

Transport are cheaper and faster to build then other ships, they have to be useful (and indeed they are) not "great" and game unbalancing. For instance, I suppose Nappy could find great being able to use his artillery to bomb London over the blocked channel, but I would rather avoid introducing this option in EIANW.


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RE: Capturing transports - 4/17/2008 7:12:36 PM   
gwheelock

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: bresh

quote:

ORIGINAL: Jimmer

Allowing them to supply the local sea zone's troops for free could prove useful. This would require the corollary rule change that troops can be left on board ships in general or transports, without dying. And, I don't think it would unbalance things to much (they're still quite vulnerable). Combining this with the hybrid movement change (speed 4 only if they started at sea) may be unbalancing, but it certainly might get people to think about actually using them, too (especially GB).



I do belive allowing Corps stay on fleets is not very EIA.
EIA 6.2.5.2
I wouldnt strongly hope this would not happen.

Allowing 4-5 move, might do it.



Regards
Bresh



The WHOLE naval system is "not very EIA" - EIA didn't have multiple types/classes of ship.

I don't think allowing troops to continue to live on transport fleets to be a game unbalancer.
This would allow Russia to ship an army from St. Pete down the Africa - it would just take time
& would mitigate the problems with the 3 movement (an especially big problem when you also
have to stop & reload your troops every month)

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RE: Capturing transports - 4/17/2008 7:13:59 PM   
Jimmer

 

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I agree with Ashtar's analysis of my idea. It wasn't a good idea.

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RE: Capturing transports - 4/17/2008 7:17:16 PM   
Jimmer

 

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Oh, yeah, and even if it were implemented, I would have a time limit on the number of turns that could be spent at sea. Probably 2 turns would be the max allowable, maybe even only one. Otherwise, they would start to get rickets or whatever that disease was that the British used limes to prevent.

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RE: Capturing transports - 4/17/2008 7:24:02 PM   
Ashtar

 

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quote:


I don't think allowing troops to continue to live on transport fleets to be a game unbalancer.
This would allow Russia to ship an army from St. Pete down the Africa - it would just take time...


Indeed a very realistic option in Napoleonic times ...

If the Russian wants to go to Africa, it should better keep Corfu and ask the Turks Dardanelles passage

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RE: Capturing transports - 4/17/2008 8:30:07 PM   
Marshall Ellis


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The naval system was completely EiH at first but I don't think we backed out enough of the EiH-ness. We left just enough in the tick off the EiA-ers and took just enough out to tick off the EiH-ers :-0. The programmer's life is a lonely life guys :-)

Oh well, more work and job security, right?



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RE: Capturing transports - 4/17/2008 8:43:13 PM   
gwheelock

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Ashtar

A big NO NO!!!

quote:


It would indeed change balance, but I don't know by how much (I never played EiH). (..)

Allowing them to supply the local sea zone's troops for free could prove useful. This would require the corollary rule change that troops can be left on board ships in general or transports, without dying. And, I don't think it would unbalance things to much (...)


Jimmer, as I wrote three posts ago, this would change things A LOT. Do you see those little minors with 0$ 0 manpower
so utterly important to GB (Gibraltar and Malta)? They are important since without them GB cannot operate reasonably
in the Mediterranean sea. Implement your rule and they will be useless.
And the fine complex strategies major powers currently need to project their military power far away will disappear
thanks to your "near teleport" rule. This is Napoleonic era, not WWII




A big YES YES!!!

I do not consider allowing troops to live on a transport from turn to turn to be a big
game unbalancer. The whole idea of "TRANSPORT" is that it contains billets; mess
areas & some sort of exercise area that could sustain the troops instead of having
to have them put ashore every turn.

And I do not consider 3 (or even 4) movement to be "near teleport". All I am suggesting
is that they get their FULL 3 instead of having to use 1 movement point just to leave
port each month.

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RE: Capturing transports - 4/17/2008 8:57:19 PM   
gwheelock

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Ashtar

quote:


I don't think allowing troops to continue to live on transport fleets to be a game unbalancer.
This would allow Russia to ship an army from St. Pete down the Africa - it would just take time...


Indeed a very realistic option in Napoleonic times ...

If the Russian wants to go to Africa, it should better keep Corfu and ask the Turks Dardanelles passage


Except for the case where the reason that the Russians would WANT to go to
N. Africa is bacause he is at WAR with the Turks (& they have captured Corfu).

Having troops be able to live on transport ships for several months is QUITE
realistic - England in particular shipped troops to both India & Australia on
voyages taking several months.

(Remember - "The sun never sets on the British Empire" ... The Brits were
ALWAYS getting into scuffles & putting down rebellions of one sort or
another during this era.)

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RE: Capturing transports - 4/17/2008 9:03:37 PM   
gwheelock

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Jimmer

Oh, yeah, and even if it were implemented, I would have a time limit on the number of turns that could be spent at sea. Probably 2 turns would be the max allowable, maybe even only one. Otherwise, they would start to get rickets or whatever that disease was that the British used limes to prevent.



I would put a max of 1-3 turns (they MUST land during the econ phase ... makes it easier to account for for one thing). As to the reasoning : "its PAYDAY & the troops want to
hit a bar or brothel or whatever")

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RE: Capturing transports - 4/17/2008 9:09:10 PM   
pzgndr

 

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quote:

The naval system was completely EiH at first but I don't think we backed out enough of the EiH-ness. We left just enough in the tick off the EiA-ers and took just enough out to tick off the EiH-ers :-0. The programmer's life is a lonely life guys :-)


Being relatively new to the game and not particularly beholden to either EiA or EiH, I question whether these need to be either/or debates. If parameters are hardwired, then certain compromises are necessary. But if things like OOBs and unit values are going to be editable in the editor, then customized campaigns for pure EiA or EiH or whatever should be possible. Yes? So what really needs to be "fixed" versus what could wait until the editor is released??

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RE: Capturing transports - 4/17/2008 9:58:54 PM   
Ashtar

 

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Sigh!

quote:


The whole idea of "TRANSPORT" is that it contains billets; mess
areas & some sort of exercise area that could sustain the troops instead of having
to have them put ashore every turn (..)

Having troops be able to live on transport ships for several months is QUITE
realistic - England in particular shipped troops to both India & Australia on
voyages taking several months.


I see that you have a very realistic grasp of sea travel conditions in early nineteen century.
An infantry factor in EIA represent between 1000 and 2000 men, you really think that in 1815 you can safely ship 30.000 Russian infantry (and maybe some cavalry too) from St. Petersburg ready for an amphibious landing in Alexandria?
[Even in WWWII the Sicily and Normandy disembarks have been launched from (respectively) North Africa and UK, certainly not from US coast. And why do you think after Midway US painfully fought their way island by island towards Japan in the Pacific instead of shipping their troops directly from Los Angeles?]

Back to Napoleonic era, colonial armies were much smaller then European ones and largely composed of local soldiers. Moreover, the shipping of Indian troops to Europe has never been even a remote option in Napoleonic Era. Finally, while one month of sea travel is a reasonable approximation for Europe-America travel, it should be noted that - midway between UK and India - the British Empire always put great emphasis on the control of a colony in South Africa. Guess why? And remind, the game lets you place garrisons in controlled minors at arbitrary distance but do not let you ship corps ready for landings too far away. I found it very reasonable...

quote:


I do not consider allowing troops to live on a transport from turn to turn to be a big
game unbalancer (...)

Except for the case where the reason that the Russians would WANT to go to
N. Africa is because he is at WAR with the Turks (& they have captured Corfu).


I say it again: this rule is not only realistic, but also increases the strategical depth of the game.
Thanks to it, places like Gibraltar, Malta and Corfu have a great strategic importance (as it was in the Napoleonic Era), and careful strategical planning is rewarded. I understand that Russia would like to be able invading North Africa from Baltic sea, but it cannot, as much as the Grand Vizier cannot have Artillery or more infantry corps.

Empires in Arms is one of the best and most successful grand strategic game ever, and in its 25 years of existence it has been extensively play tested, even giving rise to an unofficial advanced version. No serious gaming group ever proposed to alter this basic sea transport rule. Don't you think a bit bold to think, without a single play testing day, that it would be better to alter some basic game mechanics?

< Message edited by Ashtar -- 4/17/2008 10:11:45 PM >

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RE: Capturing transports - 4/17/2008 10:10:36 PM   
Ashtar

 

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quote:


(...) consider reducing other fleets movement with corps onboard to 5 or 6 (maybe 6 if <= 5 factors onboard and 5 if more then that).


By the way Marshall, I realize then even my moderate proposal to reduce fleets travel distance when loaded with corps is not working well.
Corfu is 7 sea areas away from closest Russian ports, so Russia should better keep a way to move troops back and forth (if Turks should allow it).

If one wants to touch it (it was an optional rule in EIA), better something like 7 points if <=10 factors and 6 points if more then 10 factors are
transported. This way Russia could still move small armies to Corfu (in the original setup Russia can only place a small force on the island).

(in reply to Ashtar)
Post #: 30
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