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Are Paper Wargames killing Computer Wargames?

 
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Are Paper Wargames killing Computer Wargames? - 3/15/2008 5:10:22 AM   
Custer1961

 

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In the early 90’s, the paper wargames “industry” was in the doldrums. Many said it was because wargamers were switching to the computer. In fact, magazines such as Strategy First, Computer Gaming World and a few others were widely available in retail outlets and consistenty had covers and huge articles covering computer wargames. Computer wargames sold in 5 figures and some even in 6 figures and computer wargames led the best seller lists over other genres. Hard to believe, but true. Computer wargames were mainstream.

Almost 20 years later, paper wargames do not sell in 5 figures, but they do outsell computer wargames and a few paper companies have several full time employees. In fact, it seems for paper wargames, in terms of variety, price, and quality, this is the new “golden age” (go look at Consim). And for computer wargames…….. The guy that made the (IMHO) best computer wargame of the year (COTA) had to go get a job defending Australia.

If you believe computer wargames will never be mainstream and that war gamers choose between playing paper or computer wargames, do you think computer wargames are no longer the first choice of war gamers? Will it ever reverse again?

Do you even think computer wargames are a direct competitor to paper wargames?


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RE: Are Paper Wargames killing Computer Wargames? - 3/15/2008 5:32:22 AM   
mikul82

 

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One thing that has to hurt the PC market is that it's near impossible to find games by Matrix, HPS, or other indie wargame companies available in PC game or hobby stores.  I would dare to say that us on the net who spend way too much on these games are probably really a minority- I've known people who liked older wargames who had NO IDEA that games like TOAW and the Campaign Series were being updated, released and supported here at Matrix (hadn't even heard of Matrixgames), or had never heard of HPS' (IMO) incredible Squad Battles games, or etc- most of those people quickly got an email with the free SP:WaW download link in it, and the "General's Edition" purchase page ;)  Just having the games out there to be seen by those who don't already know where to look on the net might help out quite a bit.

< Message edited by mlc82 -- 3/15/2008 5:33:54 AM >

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RE: Are Paper Wargames killing Computer Wargames? - 3/15/2008 6:03:07 AM   
Hertston


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There's certainly a big lack of exposure due to the fact such games aren't generally sold in stores.

I remember an incident a couple of years back when I wandered into a wargames convention and bumped into a colleague of mine from work. Neither of us had known that the other was 'into' such things, and after the usual pleasantries I said I had more or abandoned the paper/card and miniatures stuff that was going on all around us in favour of computer wargames. He said, in rather condescending fashion, that his club 'did' those as well and pointed in the direction of a couple of kids sitting at PCs in the corner playing a fantasy RTS. I said, no, that wasn't what I meant and explained about Decisive Battles, Squad Battles, HttR and whatever else I happened to be playing at the time, none of which he had heard of. A couple of days later he dropped by my place and I showed him the games and he was amazed - it was a whole new world. I think he spend about 200 quid on software in the next week.

< Message edited by Hertston -- 3/15/2008 6:04:03 AM >

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RE: Are Paper Wargames killing Computer Wargames? - 3/15/2008 6:24:01 AM   
Dazooz2


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I don't post much, but I had to chime in here. 
The older I get, the less I want to spend time playing in front of a monitor and the more I want to sit down at a comfortable table and play a "paper" wargame.  
While I still enjoy some computer wargames, great companies like GMT, MMP, and the new Lock 'n Load LLC are creating games that pique my interest so much more.  The ability to look at a whole map at once, actually feel the units in your hand, and enjoy a game against a face to face opponent really appeal to me more and more. 
As my son gets older, I suspect I will raise him up on the "paper" games and enjoy watching him discover all the great things about this hobby!

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RE: Are Paper Wargames killing Computer Wargames? - 3/15/2008 7:04:06 AM   
Adam Parker


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Custer

In the early 90’s, the paper wargames “industry” was in the doldrums. Many said it was because wargamers were switching to the computer.


Disagree. Who said this?

Avalon Hill died due to messing with their brand - replacing mounted maps with paper.

Dazooz says it very well.

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RE: Are Paper Wargames killing Computer Wargames? - 3/15/2008 7:18:16 AM   
Sarge


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I buy both

Go figure

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RE: Are Paper Wargames killing Computer Wargames? - 3/15/2008 8:00:41 AM   
mikul82

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Hertston

There's certainly a big lack of exposure due to the fact such games aren't generally sold in stores.

I remember an incident a couple of years back when I wandered into a wargames convention and bumped into a colleague of mine from work. Neither of us had known that the other was 'into' such things, and after the usual pleasantries I said I had more or abandoned the paper/card and miniatures stuff that was going on all around us in favour of computer wargames. He said, in rather condescending fashion, that his club 'did' those as well and pointed in the direction of a couple of kids sitting at PCs in the corner playing a fantasy RTS. I said, no, that wasn't what I meant and explained about Decisive Battles, Squad Battles, HttR and whatever else I happened to be playing at the time, none of which he had heard of. A couple of days later he dropped by my place and I showed him the games and he was amazed - it was a whole new world. I think he spend about 200 quid on software in the next week.


I don't know how many times I've been in conversation with someone, started talking about PC/video games, told them "I really enjoy wargames", and they say "Oh man me too! I love Counterstrike and Battlefield 2! Have you tried Halo 3 on XBox yet?"...

I know they mean well, but I really do have to hold back the urge to strangle them- they just don't know any better.

< Message edited by mlc82 -- 3/15/2008 8:02:18 AM >

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RE: Are Paper Wargames killing Computer Wargames? - 3/15/2008 8:06:28 AM   
geozero


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There's another aspect of playing paper games... I just love the feel of standing around a huge map and seeing the battle unfold, much like a field commander would.  There is (as has been said) something inherently pure and simple about holding a unit in your hand and moving it or rolling dice.  If you're lucky enough to play face to face on a paper game it is just a great experience, both social and educational. 

There's way too many game store that have gone out of business... here in SoCal I know of only one left.  It's sad.  I've been buying more papergames lately, and using vassal system to actually help develop and design some of my own game ideas, which I may release as paper games.

< Message edited by geozero -- 3/15/2008 8:07:56 AM >


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RE: Are Paper Wargames killing Computer Wargames? - 3/15/2008 9:10:47 AM   
panzers

 

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I'm all about the tabletop paper games over computer versions. The problem with that is getting the ppls to have available to play. I don't know about all of you, but here in the Detroit area, it is very hard to get people together to play an ongoing wargame, let alone keeping it on the table for future get togethers.

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RE: Are Paper Wargames killing Computer Wargames? - 3/15/2008 9:29:58 AM   
JeF


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Custer
The guy that made the (IMHO) best computer wargame of the year (COTA) had to go get a job defending Australia.


FYI, Panther Games used to design paper wargames [boardgamegeek] and were good at that.

quote:


Do you even think computer wargames are a direct competitor to paper wargames?


No. They are different things. At least they should.
A computer wargame has the advantage of being ready anytime, with rules, umpire and opponent included.
A paper wargame FtF (even via Vassal) is (as geozero said) a great gaming experience.

The market where they compete is the time of the players. The current offering is quite big and we have so little time... Most wargamers are above 30 (I guess), a job and a family.

Let's face it, younger gamers with more time on their hands are more into console (esp. portable) and light/short boardgames (< 1 hour) than PC wargames and ASL.

Another point to take into account : ASL is 20 years old. Still produced and sold. Still fully playable. You can't say that from any computer game that is obsoleted in less than 5 years. So as they grow up, gamers see that investment in paper (or lead for that matter) is going to stay longer.

Regards,

JeF.

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RE: Are Paper Wargames killing Computer Wargames? - 3/15/2008 9:53:57 AM   
panzers

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: panzers

I'm all about the tabletop paper games over computer versions. The problem with that is getting the ppls to have available to play. I don't know about all of you, but here in the Detroit area, it is very hard to get people together to play an ongoing wargame, let alone keeping it on the table for future get togethers.

I am editing my own quote so I can add something to this.
An excellent example of this is a relatively new grand strategic WWII game called: WWII the struggle for europe and asia. It's a game that takes up more than an entire ping pong table and if you have all the componants, costs about $1500.
I was fortunate to be one of the only groups in the entire nation that was able to play that game. It is an excellant game if anyone wants to check it out on the web. I don't have the link in front of me, but all you have to do is type in heyword stuggle for eurpe and asia and you will see it. It has been out for going on 2 years now, and this July will be the 3rd time it will have been at origins in Columbus Ohio. The whole point of this is: who the hell has the time tp play this game( at least 100 houes and Who has a ping pomg table available to keep it on in their house. I was lucky to find one and you would do well to find someone who has the game also. excellent, excellent game with A&A type pieces to it.

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RE: Are Paper Wargames killing Computer Wargames? - 3/15/2008 9:58:02 AM   
pasternakski


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sarge

I buy both

Go figure

Yah. You know, if it's good, it's all good, paper or computer.

The problem is that the world has changed, generation by generation, so that what once were vices are now habits. '60s paper wargames were a kick. '70s paper wargames were a business. '80s paper wargames were the last of a dying breed. '90s paper wargames were a resurgence. '00s paper wargames are an appeal to the remnants of a niche market (I see Avalanche Games publishing title after title with that "Axis and Allies" combat results system and just shake my head in bewilderment).

Meanwhile, the computer wargame came and went. I tried to like 'em for a long time, but they increasingly let me down, and now, I neither buy nor play them anymore. WitP, for me, was the Pickett's Charge where I reached my high tide, then slowly faded toward my surrender at Appomattox Courthouse.

Best wargame fun for me in recent times? A really good game of AH's 1962 Waterloo that came down to the last turn. Two months camping in rainy weather that saw me playing through all six games of VG's Ambush series. Stating on the AGEod forums that I was sick and tired of how AACW had been destroyed by after-publication re-design and turning the future of the game I bought over to self-aggrandizing members of the modding "community."

Next on the list? A neighbor wargamer I met soon after I moved to where I retired wants to play me a game of AH's original Third Reich (3rd ed.). He speaks Italian and very little English. I speak English and very flawed Italian. It ought to be the greatest.

Did I mention that "real time" or "pausable continuous action" simulation has done more to sour my enthusiasm for current and future computer "wargames" than anything else, other than the abysmal lack of progress in AI improvement (the AI having been the most important element of computer wargames back at the late 1980s start, when the promise was that computer waqrgames would give you a challenge "when no human opponent is available")?

Oh, well. How about a nice game of chess? Or D-Day, maybe (pre-1977, of course)?

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RE: Are Paper Wargames killing Computer Wargames? - 3/15/2008 10:01:30 AM   
panzers

 

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I have a very old 3W ancients game that I believe would do very well in a pc versin called Imperator. Sort of a rock, paprt scissors battle mentality, but much more involved than that,I believe that game to be tailor made for the pc industry

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RE: Are Paper Wargames killing Computer Wargames? - 3/15/2008 10:20:34 AM   
ravinhood


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I'm with PAT up there. Especially with this statement:
quote:

Did I mention that "real time" or "pausable continuous action" simulation has done more to sour my enthusiasm for current and future computer "wargames" than anything else
:) Glad to have you back PAT! :)

Actually what is happening is just a lull in computer wargaming purchasing. There's plenty of products out there it's just that they are so samey there's not as much interest in what is supposedly NEW when it's just a repeat or a remake of something most of us already have. Think of paper games....how many copies of "Stalingrad" do you need? Or How many copies of "3rd Reich" do you need? That's what I keep seeing in the computer wargaming creation depts, WW2 to death, American Civil War to death, Battles of Napoleon to death. I'm tired of these I want something else, but, not modern bs modern suks. Let's get back to the "origional" days of wars and wargaming. Let's get back to the ANCIENTS and if you're going to do WW2 stuff for gods sakes do some damn Pacific Land Battles. Everyone look at your wargame collections. Compare the Eastern Front games and Western Front games and Desert games to your Pacific Land battles games. How many do you have vs Pacific Land battles? Developers act like the Pacific land battles never happened and there were some great ones.

As far as paper wargames go though I haven't bought one to PLAY in 25+ years. I got some old ones back that I had lost in moving around in my lifetime, but, I don't play any of them any longer. Setup time is too long in most of them for one thing. Keeping the game setup is another (a person really needs a gaming room to be able to play most paper wargames anymore). Keeping an opponent interested long enough to play something besides the origional AH games in the 60's that didn't take half your lifetime to setup or play like "The Longest Day".

What we need is someone to invent the 36x36 or 36x48 flat screen tabletop gaming system. This way we can see the ENTIRE map and move the counters with our index finger, but, of course it will be a monitorlike unit and nothing will get lost as it will be a computer game and not paper or cardboard. It will be moveable and not weigh more than 10lbs. ;) Think of your LCD monitor laying flat down on some tabletop or coffee table only it will be 36x36 or 36x48 sized. :) Of course Windex will make a fortune off of this because of all the fingerprints and smudging I'm sure that will go along with this idea. lol Think of you 10 year old son playing you while eating a nice chocolate herseys bar during the middle of summer. ;)

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RE: Are Paper Wargames killing Computer Wargames? - 3/15/2008 12:49:55 PM   
pasternakski


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quote:

ORIGINAL: ravinhood
Actually what is happening is just a lull in computer wargaming purchasing. There's plenty of products out there it's just that they are so samey there's not as much interest in what is supposedly NEW when it's just a repeat or a remake of something most of us already have. Think of paper games....how many copies of "Stalingrad" do you need? Or How many copies of "3rd Reich" do you need? That's what I keep seeing in the computer wargaming creation depts, WW2 to death, American Civil War to death, Battles of Napoleon to death. I'm tired of these I want something else,


Do I hear an "Amen?" Well said, bro.

quote:

What we need is someone to invent the 36x36 or 36x48 flat screen tabletop gaming system. This way we can see the ENTIRE map and move the counters with our index finger, but, of course it will be a monitorlike unit and nothing will get lost as it will be a computer game and not paper or cardboard. It will be moveable and not weigh more than 10lbs. ;) Think of your LCD monitor laying flat down on some tabletop or coffee table only it will be 36x36 or 36x48 sized. :) Of course Windex will make a fortune off of this because of all the fingerprints and smudging I'm sure that will go along with this idea. lol Think of you 10 year old son playing you while eating a nice chocolate herseys bar during the middle of summer. ;)

You do, however, have some disturbing sexual fantasies.

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RE: Are Paper Wargames killing Computer Wargames? - 3/15/2008 1:22:53 PM   
ravinhood


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I say "playing you" not "playing WITH you" Pat....you're the one with the dirty mind go wash it. :)

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RE: Are Paper Wargames killing Computer Wargames? - 3/15/2008 3:58:00 PM   
Dazooz2


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To add to my previous post, I still do play some computer wargames as well, but they are about as "boardgame-like" as computer games get.  The HPS squad battles series is very much like playing Squad Leader or Lock 'n Load or Fire Team.  I also play the Battleground and Campaign Series by John Tiller, but again, very much like playing any number of operational to tactical paper wargames. 
I did enjoy Korsun Pocket (hmm, might have to reinstall that one) and SPWaW so there are computer games that do interest me, but there is something soothing about playing with cardboard.  :)
Something of interest, great computer wargames tend to stand the test of time.  Look at all of these releases of older titles that folks still play.  Most of them are very paper wargame-like. 
Another thing to like about paper is that when you understand the rules, you truly understand the odds you have of being successful on a certain action.  Which was one thing I really liked about Korsun Pocket, with help from the manual, I knew what each modifier was, just like a paper game where I had to do all the work. 
Hmmm, sorry about the rambling post there...

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RE: Are Paper Wargames killing Computer Wargames? - 3/15/2008 4:04:10 PM   
Grell

 

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I have a ton of paper wargames as well as a ton of Napoleonic Miniatures. I don't play them any more because I'm overloaded every time I play them. I just feel overwhelmed and prefer PC wargames.


Regards,

Grell

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RE: Are Paper Wargames killing Computer Wargames? - 3/15/2008 5:43:26 PM   
Titanwarrior89


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I like both and have played both for years but now only computer.  Sold my collection awhile back.   There is a place for both.

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RE: Are Paper Wargames killing Computer Wargames? - 3/15/2008 6:36:54 PM   
anvl

 

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I agree with Ravenhook,, computer war games are in a lull. I believe that there is a place for all three gaming genras,, Miniatures, boardgames and computer games. I personally started, by a lucky find with the original AH games back in the mid 60's,, and watched them develop to a place I just wasn't and didn't want to go,, with huge maps,, thousands of pieces,,and the need of keeping an opponent interested enough to finish a game.

I went for miniatures big time,,and, hehe true to form,,instead of getting into Nappy and Ancients big time,, i got into, what was then,, niche eras,,in a niche market gaming medium,,, lol,, SYW,British Colonial NWF, and Western Gunfighting for my FPS hit instead of good ole D&D!!

I still paint, but haven't had a miniatures game in way too long of a time.

So what do I see? I see very little change in the paper gaming market,,altho it is prolly the strongest. I see miniatures as being in a true rennaisance,, at least as far as figure avability goes,,and true pieces of art many of them are!!

I see the mainstream of gaming is computer FPS and RTS type games, professionally made,,and, hehe preaching to the choir here,, with very little "bottom" if ya knows what I mean,,

But,, look to the niche within the niche,, and what you see is a few,,and hopefully, the future for nex-gen computer wargames.. with all the inherent problems of a small niche,, no prime outlets,, no large scale advertising,, etc,, etc,,

So,, To name but two,,, Take Command,and the direction they are going,,and Histwars.. with just what they are coming up with,, just has me on the edge of my seat,, like nothing else has in a long time...

Quality computer wargaming took a big hit,, about the time that 32 bit computer systems made so much possible for the computer,,and that was the development of a mass market approach to game design,,

need i name it? the idea that the most needed,,and prolly the most expensive component, devwise,, of computer games,, AI,, was offed by dev's and the like and on line gaming took its place. And to compound the error,,at least from our prespectives,, they went big time for FPS and RTS type games,,and the younger up and coming market,, remember when they did this for the "Boomer's"... hehe I do with all the psychodelic stuff that came out!!

I believe that computer games development,, of all sorts is like the Wild Wild West,, a dangerous and totally unknown place to go,, thus its the haven for future creative game development of any sort,,and only the Bold dare venture there even now...

Indi developers with a knowledge of coding,,and a passion for gaming are the trailblazers for the future of computer wargaming,,and they are busy,, way more than the two I mentioned above!!

They are the ones who will,, for our needs,, take the best and most unique features of all three game types,, Board games, Miniatures,,and Computer AI,,and truly create some absolutely Kick Ars Games!!

And when the younger generation grows tired of all the Fluff and Stuff,, they will be looking for something,, and it will be here for them!,, and us too... if we just keep seeking out those niches within niches that Are Here Now...

anyway,, thats my belief...


< Message edited by anvl -- 3/15/2008 6:41:03 PM >


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RE: Are Paper Wargames killing Computer Wargames? - 3/15/2008 7:54:54 PM   
Jeffrey H.


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quote:

ORIGINAL: geozero

There's another aspect of playing paper games... I just love the feel of standing around a huge map and seeing the battle unfold, much like a field commander would.  There is (as has been said) something inherently pure and simple about holding a unit in your hand and moving it or rolling dice.  If you're lucky enough to play face to face on a paper game it is just a great experience, both social and educational. 

There's way too many game store that have gone out of business... here in SoCal I know of only one left.  It's sad.  I've been buying more papergames lately, and using vassal system to actually help develop and design some of my own game ideas, which I may release as paper games.


There's one left ? Where is it ?

There are a few here in San Diego, but they are hybrid shops that usually host Warhammer 40k and other types of games that kids play these days. I've always wanted to show up there and play out a game of AH "The Russian Campaign" jst to show them what else might be out there in the gaming landscape.

Aside from that ConSimWorld is the true home of FTF wargaming.



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RE: Are Paper Wargames killing Computer Wargames? - 3/15/2008 8:01:08 PM   
geozero


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Jeffrey H.


quote:

ORIGINAL: geozero

There's another aspect of playing paper games... I just love the feel of standing around a huge map and seeing the battle unfold, much like a field commander would.  There is (as has been said) something inherently pure and simple about holding a unit in your hand and moving it or rolling dice.  If you're lucky enough to play face to face on a paper game it is just a great experience, both social and educational. 

There's way too many game store that have gone out of business... here in SoCal I know of only one left.  It's sad.  I've been buying more papergames lately, and using vassal system to actually help develop and design some of my own game ideas, which I may release as paper games.


There's one left ? Where is it ?

There are a few here in San Diego, but they are hybrid shops that usually host Warhammer 40k and other types of games that kids play these days. I've always wanted to show up there and play out a game of AH "The Russian Campaign" jst to show them what else might be out there in the gaming landscape.

Aside from that ConSimWorld is the true home of FTF wargaming.






Brookhurst Hobbies in Garden Grove (Orange County) which is about 12+/- miles from me. Website at http://www.brookhursthobbies.com/

They still have a decent selection of games and used to hold game nights (not sure anymore). I've picked up a few new games there.

There's also ebay.com but I still like to browse a physical store... guess I'm a touchy-feely kind of person.

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RE: Are Paper Wargames killing Computer Wargames? - 3/15/2008 8:03:25 PM   
geozero


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BTW Jeffrey - Russian Campaign is still one of my favorite AH games...haven't playe it in years.  Remember when I bought it... one of the first games I bought.  Would love to play it with you one day... maybe Vassal can put together a module.  Not the same as actually being there... but hey...

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RE: Are Paper Wargames killing Computer Wargames? - 3/15/2008 8:39:02 PM   
Custer1961

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Adam Parker

quote:

ORIGINAL: Custer

In the early 90’s, the paper wargames “industry” was in the doldrums. Many said it was because wargamers were switching to the computer.


Disagree. Who said this?

Avalon Hill died due to messing with their brand - replacing mounted maps with paper.

Dazooz says it very well.



Hi Adam,
I made the statement based on memory. If I recall correctly, Dean Essig of The Gamers (a paper wargame company) had a house magazine called Operations. Amazingly, he gave specific sales numbers on his games, as well as, profit and loss. He also openly discussed his problems with the down turn in the early 90's and showed it openly with his sales numbers.

Also, if i recall correctly, Fire and Movement had a few editorials talking about the down turn at that time.

I no longer have these magazines, so I cannot really prove it. And there is every chance my memory is faulty.

I understand that a paper wargame company has a list of 25,000 active paper wargames. I know people play both paper and computer, but I wonder if computer wargames companies have a similar list.

I understand that computer wargames sell less than 2,000 copies now. Am I wrong about this? Does anyone have specific numbers on computer wargame sales or actual computer wargame people?

(in reply to Adam Parker)
Post #: 24
RE: Are Paper Wargames killing Computer Wargames? - 3/15/2008 9:17:22 PM   
panzers

 

Posts: 588
Joined: 5/19/2006
From: Detroit Mi, USA
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well, here's my 2 cents worth. As long as there are still people around and still live the old tabletop wargames, there wil and continue to be new and incresed complex, and thus bogging dpwn of computer wargames.
In a society where everyone is on the go, there is just no time here in the 21'st century to sit down with a few beers and fart all night long while everyone is busy taking their turns. I see no other way. If there were still a lot of people that were able to do this, then, yes, computer wargaming would wane. But I just don't ever see that happeneng again. Long live the tabletop wargames.
As far as alternative gaming if you are sick of wargaming, may I suggest trying out world of warcraft. As long as you don't get addicted to it, and I don't think anyone in here would for the simple reason, the type of audience we have here is highly educated and thus have lives whether it be work and/or families, there is great continuous play abilities and you never get bogged down. There are literally millions of different things you can do and there are almost limitless paths you can take. Just a thought for all you bored wargamers.
I like to balance. The genres are so completely different from one another, it allows me to enjoy both and never get bored.
But make no mistake, I'm a born and bred wargamer like all of you, and I, too get bored every once in a while with the same type of game. Hence the games like WoW.
If you can get past all the spoiled brats that you may come across in the game, it is quite the superior product.
There are now over 12 million subscibers to the game. That, right there, should tell you something unlike the 2000 games that Adam claims are sold for computer wargames which, btw, I find very hard to believe. I would believe it if it were more like 20,000. If it were only 2000, how would matrix games even stay in business? I would like to know where you get those facts, Adam.

(in reply to Custer1961)
Post #: 25
RE: Are Paper Wargames killing Computer Wargames? - 3/15/2008 9:30:10 PM   
geozero


Posts: 1883
Joined: 5/22/2002
From: Southern California, U.S.A.
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I don't believe the sales figures thrown out here and there... sure there are few copies sold of certain games, but one only needs to look at them to know why.  Crappy graphics and GUI, mediocre game play, little or no AI, little or no replayability (typically one battle), etc.  Then there's the games that use the same old "engine" over and over and marketed as a new game.  It's only another battle, with the same old system.  If you get 2000 users, it's likely they'll buy the other "battles" thus the sales numbers go up exponentially for virtually little programming effort on the makers.  Games that offer more than one battle, or depth (like WitP or TOAW) will have many thousands of sales... though even TOAW's marketing was hokey... they released several versions about a few months apart, each had some degree of upgrades to the programming but these really should have been updates... still a lot of people (me included) were suckered into buying them...

So perhaps the "average" sales numbers are higher than what is being claimed.  Open ended games with great editors (like SP) may have more longevity.  The real problem IMO with PC and Paper Games is the inability to develop games that are fun, detailed (but not bogged down), with replayability. 

It's an age old issue.  But there's a reason why old AH games are still replayable.  There were great game developers at that company (as well as SPI and other similar games co's), that seem to be lacking these days.

_____________________________

JUST SAY NO... To Hideous Graphics.

(in reply to panzers)
Post #: 26
RE: Are Paper Wargames killing Computer Wargames? - 3/15/2008 9:37:36 PM   
panzers

 

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From: Detroit Mi, USA
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AH was way ahead of their time for sure, but I think the combination of the advent of the computer gaming industry and the ccg's seemed to me the downfall of AH.
If you recall back in the 90's when magic came out( I hate even mentioning that) the tabletop wargames took a huge hit, and only recovered when the euro game came in which brings us back to AH. All that combined destroyed what I believe was the best gaming vompany of any type in history.
Such a shame. I have so many of then too gathering nothing but dust.

(in reply to geozero)
Post #: 27
RE: Are Paper Wargames killing Computer Wargames? - 3/15/2008 9:45:37 PM   
ilovestrategy


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Joined: 6/11/2005
From: San Diego
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Jeffrey H.


quote:

ORIGINAL: geozero

There's another aspect of playing paper games... I just love the feel of standing around a huge map and seeing the battle unfold, much like a field commander would. There is (as has been said) something inherently pure and simple about holding a unit in your hand and moving it or rolling dice. If you're lucky enough to play face to face on a paper game it is just a great experience, both social and educational.

There's way too many game store that have gone out of business... here in SoCal I know of only one left. It's sad. I've been buying more papergames lately, and using vassal system to actually help develop and design some of my own game ideas, which I may release as paper games.


There's one left ? Where is it ?

There are a few here in San Diego, but they are hybrid shops that usually host Warhammer 40k and other types of games that kids play these days. I've always wanted to show up there and play out a game of AH "The Russian Campaign" jst to show them what else might be out there in the gaming landscape.

Aside from that ConSimWorld is the true home of FTF wargaming.






He's right. I live In San Diego too and they usually host Warhammer. Jeffery, I live in Mira Mesa by the way!

But you know, the ONLY reason that I know Matrix even exists is because I saw Gary Grigsby's World at War on a shelf in Best Buy one day.

_____________________________

After 16 years, Civ II still has me in it's clutches LOL!!!
Now CIV IV has me in it's evil clutches!

(in reply to Jeffrey H.)
Post #: 28
RE: Are Paper Wargames killing Computer Wargames? - 3/15/2008 9:50:14 PM   
geozero


Posts: 1883
Joined: 5/22/2002
From: Southern California, U.S.A.
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: panzers

AH was way ahead of their time for sure, but I think the combination of the advent of the computer gaming industry and the ccg's seemed to me the downfall of AH.
If you recall back in the 90's when magic came out( I hate even mentioning that) the tabletop wargames took a huge hit, and only recovered when the euro game came in which brings us back to AH. All that combined destroyed what I believe was the best gaming vompany of any type in history.
Such a shame. I have so many of then too gathering nothing but dust.


If a developer could get the rights to make them into PC games (no AI, just a PBEM game would suffice) that would be a HUGE step in revamping the wargame industry. Then put together great minds and develop new games along the same flavor as the AH games...

I mean, that what World in Flames is doing. They are taking a great game and finally porting over to the PC. Those games were balanced pretty well too. Look at how simple Afirka Korps was? And it still is a better game hands down than most of the PC games in the last 10 years or more.

_____________________________

JUST SAY NO... To Hideous Graphics.

(in reply to panzers)
Post #: 29
RE: Are Paper Wargames killing Computer Wargames? - 3/15/2008 9:54:07 PM   
panzers

 

Posts: 588
Joined: 5/19/2006
From: Detroit Mi, USA
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: ilovestrategy


quote:

ORIGINAL: Jeffrey H.


quote:

ORIGINAL: geozero

There's another aspect of playing paper games... I just love the feel of standing around a huge map and seeing the battle unfold, much like a field commander would. There is (as has been said) something inherently pure and simple about holding a unit in your hand and moving it or rolling dice. If you're lucky enough to play face to face on a paper game it is just a great experience, both social and educational.

There's way too many game store that have gone out of business... here in SoCal I know of only one left. It's sad. I've been buying more papergames lately, and using vassal system to actually help develop and design some of my own game ideas, which I may release as paper games.


There's one left ? Where is it ?

There are a few here in San Diego, but they are hybrid shops that usually host Warhammer 40k and other types of games that kids play these days. I've always wanted to show up there and play out a game of AH "The Russian Campaign" jst to show them what else might be out there in the gaming landscape.

Aside from that ConSimWorld is the true home of FTF wargaming.






He's right. I live In San Diego too and they usually host Warhammer. Jeffery, I live in Mira Mesa by the way!

But you know, the ONLY reason that I know Matrix even exists is because I saw Gary Grigsby's World at War on a shelf in Best Buy one day.

Same here

(in reply to ilovestrategy)
Post #: 30
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